Is it possible that he has been mirroring and projecting this whole time?

[Sunfl0wer]

For me, I think the biggest change was that I kept making myself smaller and smaller so I didn't make him feel bad about himself.

Maybe there is a difference between channeling a feeling and suppressing it to function vs making yourself "smaller" so he doesn't feel bad about himself?

Idk, just tossing stuff around as seems to help processing sometimes.

[enlighten me]

I often think that with mirroring its like an elastic band. The more they have to stretch from their own sense of self then the faster and further they snap back away from you. Both my uBPD exs have a sense of self but its easily influenced. They always snap back though. My uBPD ex wife hated football (soccer for those over the pond) but her new husband is mad on it. She all of a sudden loved football and could talk about different players and clubs. Now she has gone back to hating it. The elastic band can only stretch so far so maybe with some the relationship lasts longer as the elastic band doesn't have as much strain on it.

[vortex of confusion]

Maybe there is a difference between channeling a feeling and suppressing it to function vs making yourself "smaller" so he doesn't feel bad about himself?

Idk, just tossing stuff around as seems to help processing sometimes.

Thank you!

Asking me this question is very helpful as I think there are two different things at play.

The making myself smaller has to do with all of the times that he would say stuff about how I made things look too easy. Sometimes, that included being good at handling a crisis. It seemed like he approached everything as a competition which meant that he "always" walked away the loser. There were times that I would deliberately NOT do something and call upon him. I am sure that it was a huge hit to his ego to have a wife that made everything look so effortless. He went up in the attic one time to fix something and ended up falling through the ceiling. I made sure he was okay and took care of his ouchies and then proceeded to go up in the attic and fix it myself. I can't imagine being a guy and having to deal with that kind of thing. I do have a lot of sympathy and compassion for him but I have to put that aside so I can focus on how I am feeling about this stuff.

I some times think he would be great with somebody that is the frail type that needs to be rescued or with the overbearing and controlling kind. I wanted a partnership, not a parent-child situation where I am letting the kid win just to feel better about himself. That does NOT work for me. I can't imagine how he must have felt when I woke up and said "No more." I took away his source of strength and his source of direction. I was really creeped out when he was doing his step work and was talking about a higher power. He made the comment, "You are my higher power." Um, not NO but HELL NO! In my younger days, I probably would have been flattered by that.

It wasn't that I wasn't working my butt off. It was that I wasn't complaining and grousing. I did what needed to be done. Did I struggle? Heck yes. Was it tiring? Heck yes. Did I need help? Yep, but I kind of knew that I wasn't likely to get it.

I guess if I wasn't complaining, that meant I wasn't working. Ooh, that hits on something else that I have been trying to unravel. I have gotten way too negative and I complain too much. I think it is because that is the only way he could recognize "work".

I did try to suppress my feelings and not share them because it seemed like he felt 10 times worse. If I told him that something he did hurt my feelings, then it became all about how horrible a person he was and how horrible he felt. I found myself thinking stuff like, "Wow, he is clearly upset by this. I have no reason to be hurt. My feelings must not be valid. It isn't like he did it to intentionally hurt me." That is why I am so hell bent on NOT talking about intention. He dismissed me and I dismissed myself time and time again because he didn't mean to do it.

Neither of us meant for any of this to happen.

[vortex of confusion]

I often think that with mirroring its like an elastic band. The more they have to stretch from their own sense of self then the faster and further they snap back away from you. Both my uBPD exs have a sense of self but its easily influenced. They always snap back though. My uBPD ex wife hated football (soccer for those over the pond) but her new husband is mad on it. She all of a sudden loved football and could talk about different players and clubs. Now she has gone back to hating it. The elastic band can only stretch so far so maybe with some the relationship lasts longer as the elastic band doesn't have as much strain on it.

Is that mirroring in a bad way? I ask this because I am thinking about stuff with my kids. There are things that they are interested in that I am not. I will do research on those topics so that I can share with them or be able to at least understand what the heck they are talking about when they want to talk to me about it. My joy over those things stems from the ability to see the joy on my kids faces when I can have a conversation with them about it. Just last night, one of my kids was really excited about something that isn't my thing. I told her, "Man, I am so excited over your excitement." It didn't matter what she was excited over. It didn't matter if she was excited over something that I hate. What mattered is that my daughter, somebody that I love and want to have a connection with has found something that she really enjoys.

[enlighten me]

Theres taking an interest and then theres becoming someone your not. My son loves certain video games. I take an interest but I don't make myself a character play the game, gather all the best bits and build a base. Its the extreme lengths they can go where the difference is.

[vortex of confusion]

Its the extreme lengths they can go where the difference is.

If I am completely honest, I can look back over our 20 year history and see where both of us did this at different times for different reasons.

One thing that ex has admitted to is projection. He is an intelligent man and does possess some self-awareness. He seems powerless to change. He has told me that a lot of the bad stuff he says about me stems from his own self-hatred. He admits to hating himself and having a lot of shame. I think that is where part of the confusion has been. How can he publicly say such great stuff about me while privately treat me so poorly. Publicly, he would gush over me and then privately he would be emailing other women about how horrible I am.

In 2013 when he was pawing me off on other men, he wrote on his blog that I was his wife and his best friend and that I was a blessing because he could look to me as an example of what it looks like to have inner strength, blah, blah, blah. It was so confusing to have him say all of these wonderful things while privately telling other women that I was all of these negative things. If I was so great, then why the heck did he do those things? I know that there isn't really an answer that will satisfy me. It is one of those rhetorical questions that I ask myself as I process all of this.

Even if we aren't compatible and even if it was a matter of me choosing the wrong guy for the job, I was still worthy of basic respect. He would go on and on about humility and respect and emotional freedom and all of these things yet he rarely put it into practice. I raked him over the coals one time and asked him how in the world could he do so much reading and have so many ideas yet not put any of it into practice. It was like he was mirroring what he thought I wanted to hear or what would project a good image. He would admit his faults and act all humble and then not do a damn thing different. And I bought it all hook, line, and sinker because I didn't want to be mean or unreasonable. I feel like I spent 20 years being told, I just need more time. You aren't giving me a chance.

I am not sure what any of this has to do with mirroring or projection. It somehow seems related even if I am not quite sure how.

[valet]

Mirroring and projecting are neither healthy nor unhealthy. They're common psychological phenomena and all of us do them. Technically, neither are even part of the BPD diagnostic criteria. The maladaptive coping mechanisms and behaviors towards people a pwBPD are involved with are the problem.

Mirroring and projection are things that help us bond with people. A pwBPD tends to mirror and project with a darker set of subconscious reasoning. They're looking for a new surrogate parent to soothe and provide direction for their wildly untamed inner children. This is the unhealthy part—the failure to self-soothe and self-regulate in situations where most healthy adults can.

This requires therapy. It is not our problem and we did not cause it, but we did enable it and put ourselves at immense risk in the process of trying to take responsibility.

[vortex of confusion]

A pwBPD tends to mirror and project with a darker set of subconscious reasoning. They're looking for a new surrogate parent to soothe and provide direction for their wildly untamed inner children. This is the unhealthy part—the failure to self-soothe and self-regulate in situations where most healthy adults can.

Thank you valet! This makes a lot of sense and helps me see through a lot of the mixed messages that I have read about mirroring and projecting. There have been a lot of times when I am reading here and I think, "Hey, I have done that. Does that mean I have a personality disorder?"

It can sometimes be difficult to make sense of what is normal and what isn't. 

Ultimately, I was his surrogate mother. He wanted a mom not a wife. That pretty much gets at the root of it all and sort of explains why he struggled to be physically intimate with me.

It is not our problem and we did not cause it, but we did enable it and put ourselves at immense risk in the process of trying to take responsibility.

Thank you! I did spend a lot of years enabling him. Now I have to figure out why I did it so I don't ever do it again. And I have to figure out how I fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

[valet]

I know that it's easy to get lost in the rhetoric and psychoanalytic ideas. I was there myself for a while.

I've found it far easier and more manageable to try and only look at the behaviors... .and not the 'why?' surrounding them. People show us who they are—any amount of analysis beyond the point of seeing how their actions affect us only serves as rationalization, which to a large degree is enabling a continuation the trauma bond relationship.

Enough can easily be enough. We just need to be able to see what enough is and stick to our boundaries around it.

[vortex of confusion]

I know that it's easy to get lost in the rhetoric and psychoanalytic ideas. I was there myself for a while.

I have been trying to focus on the behaviors and how they impacted me. Do you have any tips on how to stop the analysis? I keep telling myself that it doesn't matter why it happened. It only matters that it happened and it hurts. Even though I know this intellectually, I still find myself wondering why.

I have been looking through old stuff, especially some of the stuff he wrote. It is painful but it is also helping me understand my own confusion. I remember reading some of that stuff at the time he wrote it. I was so taken in by what he was saying. It was all the stuff I wanted to hear. It was all the stuff that I wanted to believe. His actions didn't match up and he would try to tell me that I wasn't seeing what I was seeing. I know I keep saying these things. It all seems so surreal at times.

Enough can easily be enough. We just need to be able to see what enough is and stick to our boundaries around it.

I have definitely seen that enough is enough. I don't think I will have a problem keeping him out and setting boundaries with him. I feel like I keep needing to repeat this stuff so that it will all sink in. The man that I married is not the man I thought he was. It doesn't matter if it was because he deceived me or if it was because I was unable or unwilling to see what is sitting in front of me. It was probably a little of both. Either way, letting the truth set in is painful.

[Octy]

I really enjoy where some of these longer threads go. Yet they're still on topic somehow. I see so many(including myself) can only see by reflecting back  that the pwBPD showed some glimmer of understanding that they were different under stress(and more prone to stress easily). Today I personally believe that BPD is a developmental disorder that stems from genetics at birth with a likelyhood of forming. Mirroring and projection is a quick process to fool people that they "get it" whatever"it" is. Maybe that's why many lie. To fit in. Ive recently read that alcoholism may be related to a learning disorder. Although some pwBPD are very intelligent, it seems it is very hard to let themselves reach rock bottom and accept the chaos they are creating. Therefore latching on which is easier with mirroring keeps them afloat. YES they look for enablers.

[vortex of confusion]

understanding that they were different under stress(and more prone to stress easily).

I think everyone changes under stress. Stress interferes with the brains ability to function. It is the fight or flight thing. I can definitely see where ex was easily stressed. He would stress over spilled milk.

For those of us that have been in these relationships and stayed so long, I have to wonder if my stress response is messed up too just in the opposite direction. He got stressed too easy. I had a high tolerance for stress so I didn't fight or flight when I should have.

[/quote]Maybe that's why many lie. To fit in. [/quote]

Lying is a self protective thing whether a person is BPD or not.

I blamed myself for ex's lying. People tend to lie when they think that telling the truth will lead to rejection or getting in trouble or hurting somebody.  I wrote something one time a long time ago in relation to kids. It was something along the lines of creating an atmosphere where it is safe to tell the truth. I don't think ex ever felt safe no matter what kind of atmosphere I tried to create.

Although some pwBPD are very intelligent, it seems it is very hard to let themselves reach rock bottom and accept the chaos they are creating. Therefore latching on which is easier with mirroring keeps them afloat. YES they look for enablers.

Do they look for enablers or do enablers look for them?

I don't think they go looking for anything. I think my ex is too impulsive to go looking for anything specific. Healthy people have a good fight or flight system and run like hell when the red flags start flying. I can look back over the 20 years and see that there were a lot of red flags that would have made a normal person run like hell. Oh no, not me. I had to excuse his behavior and find reasons to NOT judge him and give him chance after chance.