I'm ready to learn the tools - III

[Oncebitten]

I absolutely take your word as to what you are saying about your relationship.


I only know what she has told me and what he has said given our handful of interactions.  She tells me she has never loved him and he even confirmed that too me.  She has an unhealthy attachment to him, in him she has a man who loves her acknowledges that they will never be together in a romantic sense, openly dates other women but is still shows her love, affection, drops everything for her.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Oncebitten]

NW

I agree that she gets something from it... .he is a safety net.  I truly believe that its me she loves, and wants to be with, but I know she knows I am a lot less toleratant than he is and she will be the first to admit, I have seen the worst of her, the outbursts, the rage, etc... .I dont think he has been exposed to that so short of him just moving on he's not going anywhere.

I also think she uses him as a way to move me off center, she knows what kind of reaction he elicits and she might act angry when I over react but I believe that is exactly what she is looking for

[Grey Kitty]

P&C and NW have suggested that she actively does things to maintain distance with you.

I concur.

There is a good chance that she doesn't really understand it or realize it herself. So she will continue to tell you things like you are the one she truly loves and wants to be with.

And yet she continues to act in one way or another to create distance. Whether it is keeping this "friend" around. Whether it is being far away physically.

I suggest you accept that this is who she is, and this is what she does, and experiencing this is the cost of being in a relationship with her. You may not be able to understand why she does it. You might have a clue. You might be completely baffled. Whatever, she's likely to continue.

[livednlearned]

OB,

The bottom line is that she is keeping this guy in her life despite how much it hurts you (knowingly).

Maybe because she needs the validation, maybe because it creates some emotional intensity that she craves (e.g. makes you jealous).

Either way, like P&C, and NW, and GK have mentioned, this is who she is.

She isn't likely to change.

If so, what's your plan?

[Oncebitten]

GK & LnL


To me it always seems to come back to the abandonment thing with her.  I really feel like she continues to keep him around as this sort of safety net, he provides her with a backup, she hates the idea of being alone so the fact that there is a man out there whom she likes, and knows cares about her provides her with some comfort. 


As far as a plan goes I really don't know what to do at this point.  She only brings him up occasionally, typically when we have been good for a long while.  She brings him up, I get upset, then a few hrs later after I have gotten all worked up she lets it go and reminds me its me she loves etc... .I feel like she uses him as this prod of sorts.

this is how it appears to me "I will mention the other man and see what he does... .ok he got all upset and it still bothers him a lot so he does still care and want to be with me"... .I realize I can't read her mind, but the things she says afterword make me wonder if she does what she does just to elicit a response from me.

As far as the physical distance thing, she has been far more receptive to spending time together since our last meeting.  That seems to have fallen by the wayside, truly believe it was just a matter of the previous meeting not living up to the fantasy. 

Truthfully the only issue I really take with her is her "friend" and her resistance to getting rid of him.  She seems to have forgiven me for what happened over the summer, can't remember the last time she brought it up. 

[Grey Kitty]

As far as a plan goes I really don't know what to do at this point.  She only brings him up occasionally, typically when we have been good for a long while.  She brings him up, I get upset, then a few hrs later after I have gotten all worked up she lets it go and reminds me its me she loves etc.

So your plan is that she will continue to do this, you will continue to get upset, and you will forgive her, and this will repeat every now and again?

[Meili]

I can't speak for her, OB, but I can tell you why I have kept other women in my life at an intimate, albeit non-physical, level when I have been in a committed relationship.

It is no secret that I wanted to marry my uBPDexgf (my x), but I maintained a relationship with my other ex (the ow) while with my x. I repeatedly tried to explain to my x that I kept the ow because I felt safe with her... .because she was like family... .because she was my best friend. Those things were all true.

It didn't matter to me how much it hurt my x that I maintained that relationship. I watched her beg, cry, and scream at me over it. I still maintained my position citing my freedom to be friends with whomever I chose as a defense.

Here's the underlying reality of that situation for me though:

I have kept other women in my life when in committed relationships not as a fall back plan or safety net, but because I would not be completely open and intimate with the person that I as in a committed relationship with. That would make me too vulnerable. The other women were not in a position to hurt me emotionally - to make me feel that I was not good enough.

I truly had no romantic interest in them, I just wanted a safe person to talk to with, not feel pressured, and relax. Because of my insecurities, I could not feel that way with the person that I was committed to. If I did something to upset the other woman, it didn't matter as much as if I did something to upset the person to whom I was committed. Losing the friend relationship was far less important to me; losing the love relationship would devastate me.

Having both in my world meant that I was never truly open and vulnerable to either. One kept my secrets while the other got the best parts. Neither got the complete me. It kept me safe.

It was also extremely unfair to both women. I justified and rationalized it ever time it was brought up. I felt so confident that what I was doing was just fine because I didn't hide it from anyone... .everyone always knew about the friend and the gf. For some reason, in my mind, that made it acceptable. It wasn't.

In the end, with regard to my latest relationship, all three of us got hurt and damaged as a result.

Could any of my exes ever made me feel safe enough for me to completely reject intimate relationships with other women? Probably not. I'm just now starting to realize the reasons behind all of this and am dealing with it in therapy. It all stems from the initial hurts of my FOO. Your gf may require the same and what you are seeing may stay that way until she does. You'll have to decide whether or not it is acceptable to you.

I tell you all of this only to provide one possibility of what might actually be going on. I cannot possibly know what your gf is doing or thinking.

[Grey Kitty]

Could any of my exes ever made me feel safe enough for me to completely reject intimate relationships with other women? Probably not. I'm just now starting to realize the reasons behind all of this and am dealing with it in therapy.

In other words, "It isn't always all about you, OB"

Meili's point is that what he did in that situation was pretty much an unavoidable consequence of himself, and his own issues... .which he's now working on... .so his next r/s someday later will have much better potential.

In Meili's case, I recall his postings about this mess as it was happening, and I'm pretty sure that neither of his exes WAS safe enough for him to be that fully intimate with, even if he didn't have those issues... .if he had been able to do so, they wouldn't have been able to handle things well without blowing something else up, I'm pretty sure.

OB, I'm pointing the finger at your GF, not you. She is showing you by her behavior (not her words!) that she isn't capable of being in a r/s with you, without keeping this other guy hanging on at some distance or other.

My guess is that even if he were to really give up on her, and end contact with her, she would probably find some other hanger on, or series of them, and keep on doing the same thing.

[Meili]

She is showing you by her behavior (not her words!) that she isn't capable of being in a r/s with you, without keeping this other guy hanging on at some distance or other.

My guess is that even if he were to really give up on her, and end contact with her, she would probably find some other hanger on, or series of them, and keep on doing the same thing.

This is exactly what I was getting at about how I handled things. When my x demanded that I cut ties with the ow, and I did it, I ran to another woman to fill the same role. The x demanded that I cut ties with her... .enter the next woman.

I've been that way in all of my adult relationships. There is always another woman that I connect with on an emotionally intimate level so that I didn't have to completely be vulnerable to my partner.

I think that accepting this about your gf is going to part of making it work for you OB. There was nothing nefarious about what I did from my perspective. I never looked at it as cheating. But, they all could be classified as emotional affairs.

[Oncebitten]

I can't speak for her, OB, but I can tell you why I have kept other women in my life at an intimate, albeit non-physical, level when I have been... .

I tell you all of this only to provide one possibility of what might actually be going on. I cannot possibly know what your gf is doing or thinking.

I think that this is probably her issue... .she has a man who she is not attached to therefore he cannot hurt her.  He loves her so she knows he wont hurt her... .

I guess this is my issue then?  Is it just jealousy?  thats what I feel it is, she thinks that I am in a competition with her friend.  That's all it really is, I just want to one up this man.  The thing is I know for me all of my anxiety is specific to him.  She mentions other male friends from time to time, even the occasional ex boyfriend that she runs into... .none of them elicit this kind of response.  Should I be okay with her doing things with him on a platonic level?

Am I wrong or is she?

[Oncebitten]

GK

she keeps telling me if I was closer then we wouldn't have these issues and she wouldn't maintain any contact with him.  I guess what upsets me the most is that "this" issue upsets me but she doesn't seem to care.  She tells me I am being selfish bc I dont want her spending time with him.  But then the next day she will profess her love, and tell me how she doesnt want me to share her or her time with anyone else, she wants me to have all of it.

Should I just be ok with her doing whatever with her friend?  At times I think she does this to elicit that jealous response... .I think she likes it, strokes her ego to still have me working for her attention.

Any time she acts jealous she tells me how its ok, and she is just territorial and has to protect whats hers... .I guess I am not allowed to feel the same way

[once removed]

Should I be okay with... .

Should I just be ok with

im not sure these are "should" questions, certainly not ones we can answer for you.

the question, as i see it is are you? theres no right or wrong answer.

[Oncebitten]

Once


well I am not okay with it... .I guess the reason I ask is I want to know if I am being immature?  Am I being unreasonable by fighting this "friendship"

[Grey Kitty]

I guess this is my issue then?  Is it just jealousy?

$.02 on "just jealousy", from my perspective. I'm not normally a jealous guy.

In the last ~7 years of my marriage, there were four guys I felt jealous about. I would note that my wife is an incorrigible, unstoppable flirt, and there were dozens of guys she flirted with that I wasn't jealous of. I'm not prone to irrational jealousy.

In each of these instances, there was something more going on with the guy. One was an emotional affair. The next was a sexual encounter (even though they kept their clothes on), followed by months of my wife obsessing on the guy, whom I respect and came to find him as a close friend. The one after that was part of a complicated, messy open r/s, and I chose to let my wife get involved with him, but I still had twinges of jealousy a few times during the r/s. The last was one that she chose to have sex with despite my telling her it wasn't OK, and that plus later fallout ultimately blew up our marriage.

Perhaps more than you needed to know, but I came to appreciate something about my jealousy: That FEELING was important. It was telling me "Hey, GK--there is *something* going on with wife and (guy you are jealous of), and you need to know about it!" The feeling was also very accurate in my case. It was pretty obvious for the last three, but with the first one (the EA), I didn't realize until later how accurate my jealousy was.

That said, my feeling of jealousy wasn't telling me WHAT to do about it. Merely that there was something going on, and that it mattered.

I don't believe that monogamous relationships are the only ones that work. I've personally been successfully monogamous for a decade, and been in an open r/s that worked for a year+. Some people cannot be monogamous. Other people cannot be in a non-monogamous r/s. I don't believe that there is an absolute "right" answer.

Instead, the question for you is this -- Can you make this r/s work with this woman, the way she is? And here's how I think she is:

She will keep this guy on a string, and if he gets away or she cuts him off for you, there will be another one. NOTE: Her actions and her words don't match on this. Resolve the conflict by believing her actions. And feel free to tell her that when she tries to reassure you with her words!

Any time she acts jealous she tells me how its ok, and she is just territorial and has to protect whats hers... .I guess I am not allowed to feel the same way

She won't let you do the same thing, or at least not without a big blowup fight over it, one which may or may not end your r/s with her.

Nope, it isn't fair. Personally, I ended up letting my wife do these things (mostly, depending on circumstances, though)... .and also ended up standing up and not letting her shut down my intimate friendships with other women.

But you have to choose what you can live with.

[once removed]

Am I being unreasonable by fighting this "friendship"

i would say youre being unrealistic by fighting this "friendship", and setting yourself in the karpman drama triangle.

thats different than being unreasonable for feeling uncomfortable with it, or it being a deal breaker for you.

fighting it is not accepting it, one way or the other.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

[Grey Kitty]

(cross-posted with my longer reply, but I've got two cents for you on it)

well I am not okay with it... .I guess the reason I ask is I want to know if I am being immature?  Am I being unreasonable by fighting this "friendship"

$.01: You are who you are, your feelings are real, and calling yourself "immature" or "unreasonable" to talk yourself out of your feelings isn't going to work.

$.01: Expecting her to change and drop this friendship to make you feel secure and safe in your r/s with her is unreasonable on your part.

[Turkish]

This topic has been locked due to reaching its post limit.  The discussion is continued here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305964.0