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Jester20
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« on: February 01, 2017, 05:36:50 PM »

I have a question. During my and my husbands time together he is completely unable to show me any kind of support emotionally.
If I cry in front of him like when my grandad was hit by a drunk driver in his car and I found out he was in hospital... .my husband couldn't even hold me.
If he hears me crying in the bedroom he don't even come to see what's wrong.
I thought BPD was about feeling emotions intensely ?

It's like he has no feeling of empathy or doesn't know how to provide emotional support. It's very bizarre

Any thoughts?
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heartandwhole
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2017, 04:34:07 AM »

Hi Hulu,

That is very hard when loved one can't show support or empathy when you are hurting. People with BPD usually do feel emotions intensely, but they can also experience numbness and shut down like anybody else. He might also feel like he doesn't know how to support you, so he stays away—that way he won't feel like a failure if he doesn't do it right.

Here is a short article about lack of empathy that might be helpful:

Do People with BPD Lack Empathy?

What do you think?

heartandwhole
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When the pain of love increases your joy, roses and lilies fill the garden of your soul.
Jester20
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2017, 05:09:19 AM »

Hi Hulu,

That is very hard when loved one can't show support or empathy when you are hurting. People with BPD usually do feel emotions intensely, but they can also experience numbness and shut down like anybody else. He might also feel like he doesn't know how to support you, so he stays away—that way he won't feel like a failure if he doesn't do it right.

Here is a short article about lack of empathy that might be helpful:

Do People with BPD Lack Empathy?

What do you think?

heartandwhole

I just read this article. I understand and it makes sense.
I just have one issue. I don't want to be with someone that isn't able to comfort me during hard times. That isn't the sort of relationship I want. I feel selfish for being like this. But I cannot tell my family about his disorder.  I have no one to provide me with emotional support for anything.
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heartandwhole
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2017, 05:29:30 AM »

I just read this article. I understand and it makes sense.
I just have one issue. I don't want to be with someone that isn't able to comfort me during hard times. That isn't the sort of relationship I want. I feel selfish for being like this. But I cannot tell my family about his disorder.  I have no one to provide me with emotional support for anything.

I hear that, and you have every right to feel that way. It's important to feel cared for and understood in intimate relationships. I know what you mean about feeling selfish, but please remember that your needs and wants matter just as much as anyone else's. 

It hurts not to have anyone around for emotional support. I've felt that way, too.
Is there one small thing that you can do for yourself that would feel supportive? Even a simple gesture can make a difference. 

Keep writing, we'll be your virtual support team.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

heartandwhole
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Jester20
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2017, 05:06:21 PM »

I hear that, and you have every right to feel that way. It's important to feel cared for and understood in intimate relationships. I know what you mean about feeling selfish, but please remember that your needs and wants matter just as much as anyone else's. 

It hurts not to have anyone around for emotional support. I've felt that way, too.
Is there one small thing that you can do for yourself that would feel supportive? Even a simple gesture can make a difference. 

Keep writing, we'll be your virtual support team.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

heartandwhole

Hi,
Thank you, I'm good at pampering myself. Is that what you mean?
I have hugged him when getting in before from work. We made a deal that we needed to have a hug at least once a day. We haven't shared a bed for 2 years. We don't sit on the same couch, the hug is ok... .but I just don't feel anything. It just feels like a fake thing. It's just not how I want to be in a relationship. I want to feel that if I am upset or distressed about something in life that my DO can at least recognise that and respond appropriately... .I don't know if I can ever have that with my husband
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Dragon72
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2017, 07:09:32 AM »

I have the same level of emotional neglect from my uBPDw.

Recently I was very sick (no, not just man flu!).  While I was sick she was very good at providing me with food and water and other physical things. But she had a terrible bedside manner.  Another time I was taken ill during a family dinner and instead of coming to me to see if I was OK, she verbally reprimanded me for leaving her alone at the table.

My "wife" hasn't slept in "our" bed for 3 and a half years. She prefers to sleep with our 3 and a half year old son.  In fact, I can't even remember the last time she spent an evening with me, just the two of us in front of the TV or chatting or enjoying each other's company.

I'm now wondering whether or not to do anything for her on Valentines Day.  Would you do Valentines Day stuff for a roommate?  That's what she feels like to me now.

I've been avoiding her recently.  Why? Last weekend, I suggested she stop doing housework and come to the park with our son and me.  She replied that she had to do the housework because "no one else is going to".   I pointed out that I help a lot with the housework (I really do!) She then criticised the housework I do, saying it wasn't up to scratch. I told her that she had plenty of time during the week while our son is in Kinder garten (she's a SAHM and he's at Kinder 4 hours a day) to do these jobs. I urged her to spend the weekend relaxing as a family.  She then violently slammed the door onto my body, yelling "Go away!".

I think certain people with BPD just can't handle emotions because when they do have them they overwhelm them.
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2017, 02:43:40 PM »

Emotional neglect is the largest issue I am dealing with.  I had a documented medical condition that lastest several months last year.  During that time, not only did my fiance not give me emotional support, but started secretly talking to a girl, telling her that he "felt single".  All while I was ill.  Wow. 

I want someone emotional supportive in my next relationship, life is hard enough. 
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heartandwhole
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2017, 03:22:10 PM »

I'm good at pampering myself. Is that what you mean?

Pampering is good! And how can we support ourselves emotionally when our loved ones don't?

Is there a subtle difference between pampering ourselves and caring for ourselves emotionally? I suppose it depends on what each of us needs.

Any thoughts?
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Jester20
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2017, 04:41:47 PM »

Pampering is good! And how can we support ourselves emotionally when our loved ones don't?

Is there a subtle difference between pampering ourselves and caring for ourselves emotionally? I suppose it depends on what each of us needs.

Any thoughts?


I think when I'm feeling crappy about it all I can feel quite down. I have learned that going out for a massage, having a bath with candles and face packs really do seem to bump my energy levels and make me feel slightly better than before doing these activities.

If you look at Maslow hierarchy of needs I think you will see a link between these 2. There has been a lot of research done.
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« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2017, 09:30:00 AM »

I have the same level of emotional neglect from my uBPDw.

My "wife" hasn't slept in "our" bed for 3 and a half years. She prefers to sleep with our 3 and a half year old son.  In fact, I can't even remember the last time she spent an evening with me, just the two of us in front of the TV or chatting or enjoying each other's company.

I'm now wondering whether or not to do anything for her on Valentines Day.  Would you do Valentines Day stuff for a roommate?  That's what she feels like to me now.


Dragon72,

This is tough, I know. I'm in a similar situation. I'm sorry you're going through this. It can be hard just to get through each day when we're stuck in a dysfunctional relationship with a pwBPD. My husband and I are pretty close to the "roommates" stage of things too, he's definitely not providing me with any of the things a spouse is supposed to - connection, open and respectful conversation, etc - it's not a real relationship. I dread being around him.

I can also relate to watching one's ostensible spouse replace you with a child - it sounds like what your wife is doing is enmeshment, it's unfortunately common with pwBPD. If you Google Dr. Patricia Love and the emotional incest syndrome, you might find her writings to resonate very much with what you're seeing. The players in that paradigm are: The enmeshing/invasive/engulfing parent, the Chosen Child (who develops a host of lifetime problems as a result of the emotional incest), and the Left Out Spouse. There's also a great place on the boards somewhere (sorry, I don't recall exactly where at the moment), that gives a good overview of BPD parents and enmeshment, when a BPD parent turns to child for intimacy and companionship, instead of their spouse or partner. They will emotionally neglect their adult partner, preferring instead to 'merge' with a child.

I don't know where you live, but many states in the U.S. are starting to have much stronger father's rights in divorce cases; this is just to say that if you chose divorce, you might actually get a lot of custody. And if you were to extricate yourself, at least your son would have one model of a healthy, whole adult. Not trying to sway you in that direction, just wanting you to know that divorce might not be a disaster in terms of custody, and does come with an upside.

If you can afford it/have access to mental health care, a therapist for yourself can be invaluable in this kind of situation. Being in a relationship with a pwBPD who isn't in therapy can be soul-crushing, and a therapist can provide some measure of validation, support, etc. I know this life is hard, hang in there  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)


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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2017, 10:31:22 PM »

Thanks for the reply Lightness of being, and sorry to hijack your thread Hulu.

I'm in Mexico City where, as far as I can tell, the mother holds a revered status as far as raising children are concerned. I am also a foreigner and I think that could work against me.  In addition Mexican courts are not well known for their delivery of real justice, sadly. 

Tonight yet again, she went to bed with our son at 7.30pm leaving me to spend Saturday night alone in front of the TV.

I have tried to raise the issue a number of times and it just gets brushed off.  The latest was after she took our son to the pediatrician while I was at work. I asked how the appointment went and asked whether the doctor is aware that she still sleeps with him at the age of 3 and a half. She said no. 

But I think I touched a nerve because I overheard her later talking to our son explaining that she won't be in his room forever.  Yet, She also told me that it won't be forever 2 years ago, 1 year ago and 6 months ago.  It's clear she is reluctant to leave his room and come into mine.

I'm wondering whether it would be a good idea or a waste of breath to directly confront her on the issue.  I know that if I do, it might end up with me giving an ultimatum. You have x amount of time to top sleeping with our son and start spending time with your husband or we separate/divorce.
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2017, 02:28:57 PM »

Excerpt
I'm wondering whether it would be a good idea or a waste of breath to directly confront her on the issue.  I know that if I do, it might end up with me giving an ultimatum. You have x amount of time to top sleeping with our son and start spending time with your husband or we separate/divorce.

Sorry to hear you're not in a great situation in terms of potential custody issues   I am as well (although I think of him as my own, and have been his mother since he was 18 months old, the child I share with my BPDh is my stepson - so if I divorce my husband, I'll have no legal rights for visitation, and the full expectation that BPDh wouldn't offer me any on his own. That's been the main reason I've stayed, but at some point I can certainly see the wisdom in leaving - by staying, the model my four year old is being shown is that other adults should accept being mistreated by his father, and that's not a lesson I want him to internalize.)

It's often hard to decide whether to confront a pwBPD about an issue. Everyone's experience is different, but with my BPD husband, he rarely responds well to direct confrontation, no matter how kind/calm/civil I am about it. But what Nons have to do if they do decide to press an issue is be firm and not back down when the disordered partner tries to brush things off - or scare us off the topic with rage or guilt or wild tantruming -  as well as not respond with (valid and warranted) anger or tears in the face of those crazy onslaughts. We have to be zen while we're being screamed at, we have to "not take personally" all the horrible things they'll say about and to us, etc. That's obviously not easy to do. There are communication tools on the site that some people find helpful: "The idea behind all these tools is that a BPD has to have trust reinforced and fears of inadequancy soothed before they can listen or hear.  The non-BP validates that the feeling are real feelings (not that they justified).  The non-BP then shifts the discussion on what the real issue is and what can be done about it. These tools put a lot of responsibility of the non-BP to bridge the communication/emotional inadequacy." 

While the decision of whether to press the issue is yours alone, I can tell you that Nons should never give an ultimatum unless they really truly mean it and can follow through on it - if we give a pwBPD an ultimatum and then don't follow through, it acts as a reinforcement of their bad behavior. Think of a toddler tantruming - if we give in, what they learn is that if they scream and cry loudly enough, we'll give them what they want. So the next time we try to enforce boundaries or whatnot, it's exponentially harder.

pwBPD rarely change on their own - they'll only look at their behavior and make changes if there will be negative consequences if they don't. I hope your wife makes changes without it coming to that, but as you said, she's said it before and didn't stop sleeping with him then.

Ultimately, these relationships come down to us Nons - we have to decide, at some point, whether we're willing to accept less. We have to accept that we can't really change a pwBPD, only therapy can do that, that the only person we have control over is ourselves. We can decide to accept the mistreatment and stay, or we can decide that leaving makes the most sense for our well-being.

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Dragon72
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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2017, 09:54:25 PM »

Thanks for the advice. 
I'm feeling downright miserable.

I'm not talking to my wife at the moment.

It's not like I'm giving her the silent treatment, although deep down it might be that, but more like I just don't want to talk with her.  I can't have a normal relaxed chat with her. And invariably I accidentally touch a raw nerve and set her off on a rage.  She seems incapable of intimacy anyway.

I desperately want intimacy, but from someone who accepts me as I am.  The only feeling I get from her, on the very very few occasions she is alone with me, is that of me being judged for not being attentive enough to HER needs.

It's not normal for a wife to not spend her evenings with her husband.  Something's not right that she should wish to go to bed every night in our son's bed and never stay up with her husband.  I just don't buy the "he needs me" or "I'm tired" excuse.   She is happy to have me around when it's the 3 of us.  It just seems like she's running away from any form of intimacy with me.  Imagine how that makes me feel.

But I can't live like this.  The loneliness is killing me.
How should I confront this issue with her?  Is it a waste of my effort?  Should I just accept my fate?

My current coldness towards her isn't helping matters as it's not exactly an inviting or attractive vibe I'm giving off, but since our last argument which came out of nowhere I am not feeling too positive.

I don't know why I'm writing this. To get it off my chest, I guess.
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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2017, 10:27:09 PM »

Lightness, although it appears otherwise from the post above, I did take in what you said about confronting her.
I am thinking long and hard about how I can either use a metaphorical carrot or stick to try to encourage a more intimate relationship.  

I think part of the problem is that I have, like a true codependent at the beck and call of a bully, enabled her to separate herself from me.  What was I thinking when I reluctantly help set up a TV for her to watch in our son's (and her) room?  But she has me so well trained that any refusal of her requests are made out to be personal attacks against her and more evidence of how "badly I treat" her.

This morning she came into my bedroom and said, "You've got to make juice this morning".  Now, she never has made juice for me. (Probably because using our juicer and cleaning it afterwards is quite tedious). She's the only one who has juice in the morning. It's always me that makes it for her.  And THAT's how she asks me? So, I said, "Excuse me? What did you say?"
She repeated that it was my turn to make the juice.  So I said, "Look, if you want juice, I'm happy to make it for you, but you have to ask me nicely."
So, in a robotic tone, as if to say she was only saying it because she HAD to, she said, "Please make me a juice." Then when I went to make the juice, she said, "Actually, I don't want the juice now, after all".  This was done in a tone designed to make me feel that, because I was so rude as to her ask nicely, she's now going to "suffer" without juice like a martyr.

This is what I'm up against.

I heard someone say recently that your true feelings for someone are revealed if you do the following: imagine yourself on a deserted beach (or whatever setting is a relaxed paradise for you). Then picture the person in question walking towards you. How do you feel?  When I think of her walking towards me, I feel scared, judged, inadequate and nervous.

Oh, tomorrow's my birthday.  And I have to spend it with someone who makes me feel terrible.
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2017, 03:20:46 AM »

I posted more details about my situation earlier, and I am in a similar boat... .my question is - is the emotional neglect a by product of trauma they experienced, a phase they must go through or simply a byproduct of the illness?
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2017, 05:38:53 AM »

I think it stems from fear of abandonment. A sort of pre-emptive strike.
"You can't abandon me if I've abandoned you first. But don't you dare leave me."
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2017, 03:35:31 PM »

Venting is natural, all of us in a terrible situation with a BPDSO need to do it. People who haven't gone through this can't imagine how frustrating it is! I've been where you are many times, like so many others here I've gone through nearly the exact same kind of dynamic you're suffering with. It's profoundly frustrating, and sometimes it feels like it's completely impossible to fix the situation because the pwBPD just keeps reacting every single time with their rigid defense mechanisms, rather than being able to have a real conversation.


Excerpt
It's not normal for a wife to not spend her evenings with her husband.  Something's not right that she should wish to go to bed every night in our son's bed and never stay up with her husband.  I just don't buy the "he needs me" or "I'm tired" excuse. It just seems like she's running away from any form of intimacy with me.  Imagine how that makes me feel.

They do sound like excuses, and if your gut tells you that it seems like she's just running away from intimacy with you, you may be right. I know exactly how that feels - my BPDh does the same thing. It's a very lonely feeling, being the left-out spouse in an emotional incest/enmeshment triangle. I think that perhaps 'emotional intimacy' with a child is easier for some pwBPD - because it isn't true emotional intimacy. He doesn't realize it, but my H clearly craves a symbiotic state, and the 'merging' he can do with a 4 year old fits the bill, they can be cuddly infants together, he can sink down into that state and basically abandon being an adult 90% of the time. Emotional intimacy between adults requires something of each person, it's one adult connecting to another adult. When you say "She seems incapable of intimacy anyway.", I think of the conversations I've had with other Nons over the past two years, the fact that many of them have observed that their BPDSO or family member seems child-like at the psychic level. There's probably something to that. It's often framed clinically as a disorder having its origins in a form of arrested development - the child's emerging Self is halted by something (in my H's case, it was enmeshment, rather than trauma), resulting in what is essentially a psyche with the interpersonal functioning of a toddler in the body of an adult. And obviously a toddler (no matter how tall) is incapable of providing adult emotional relating.

This seems important:  "I think part of the problem is that I have, like a true codependent at the beck and call of a bully... ." Realizing that we're co-dependent can be the start of a fruitful journey - whether that takes the form of leaving the relationship and healing from it, or finding ways to stay in it in a sustainable way.

I don't have answers, any solutions, but I wanted to offer, for whatever it's worth, my good thoughts for you on your birthday. I've spent many a birthday feeling bad because of how things were with my BPDh on that supposed-to-be-special day; on the last one, I just treated myself, alone. Don't let a BPDSO completely ruin a birthday for you; is there anything you could do for yourself, no matter how small? A movie you'd like to go see, or take yourself out to your favorite restaturant? Will there be blowback from the pwBPD? Probably. But that's where self-care comes into the equation - we decide to take care of ourselves, and not let the slings and arrows (and god, they've got bottomless supply of those) meant to punish us for stepping outside of their controlling behaviors bother us. Easier said than done, I know, but we've got to try. Every time we give in, we're teaching the pwBPD that their tactics are effective.

Hang in there   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)


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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2017, 09:24:17 PM »

My wife's brother and sister came with their other halves and kids for my birthday "party" which was nice because they are lovely peple.

So my wife is being warm and nice to me now.  In spite of the fact that I have been very cold towards her since her last big dysreg. Today when she left the house, she insisted on a kiss on the mouth.  For months now she has only ever shown me a very cold cheek whenever I have kissed her hello/goodbye/goodnight and since her dysreg a couple of weeks ago I gave up doing that altogether.

She still went to bed however with our son at 7.30pm.

I feel more and more determined to do something to change this situation of her going to bed with our son.  It's not just her abandonment and emotional neglect of me, but also the thought of the psychological damage she is doing to our son that is making me think like I have to do something, anything to try to change her behaviour.

First, I need to raise the issue and explain how I feel.  Now, I don't believe for one moment that she will alter her behaviour because of the way I feel.  That's too much to ask of a BPD. So I reckon I need either a carrot or a stick to present to her.  But they must absolutely be things I can deliver on 100%.

The question is, what carrot? And/or what stick?
"If you don't move back into our bedroom I'll... ."
"I'm giving you x days/weeks/months to start sleeping in our bed or I'll... ."
"If you start spending time with me and start sleeping in our bed I'll make it worth my while by... ."

So I need ideas.  But there's a part of me that feels very sad that I may have to resort to threats/bribery to get my wife to act more like she's married to me.
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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2017, 03:17:12 AM »

I posted more details about my situation earlier, and I am in a similar boat... .my question is - is the emotional neglect a by product of trauma they experienced, a phase they must go through or simply a byproduct of the illness?

I see it quite ironically, but it still makes sense to me. Emotional neglect from them stems from the emotional neglect they've experienced from their parents (or other parental figures) during their childhood. They don't know how to deal with this since they've never learned how to and well sadly we don't have schools teaching children social and psychological needs and interactions of humans, so it stays that way.
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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2017, 02:08:02 AM »

We had an argument that resulted in me walking out for a few hours last night.

In the late afternoon she announced that her brother with whom I get on with very well would be stopping by the house.
"Oh great," I replied, genuinely pleased "what's the reason for the visit?"
":)oes he need a reason?" she snapped.
"No not at all, I was just curious... ."
"He's family he shouldn't need a reason. He should always be welcome here."
"Of course he's always welcome, I was just... ."
At that point our son rescued me by dragging me off to play.

Her brother came and went in a very pleasant short 10 minute visit. It turned out that he had arranged with my wife to come over and drop off the money he had borrowed from me earlier that week. So it wasn't just a social call, after all. Not that that mattered.

Just after he left, my wife said to me, "In future, never ask why my family are coming to see us. It's rude and besides, they don't need a reason to visit. They should be welcome at any time."
I replied, ":)on't tell me what I can or cannot ask you. Anyway, you know I like your family and they are always welcome. I don't see what the problem is me asking why they might be dropping by."

After 2 minutes of circular arguing that was getting nowhere, I decided to leave the room and went up to "my" bedroom and locked the door.

She followed me upstairs, tried the door and said, "How old are you, locking the door like that?" She had a point, it was pretty childish. And that brought out the child in me even more.
"The same age as you when you did exactly the same thing two weeks ago", (when she slammed the door on my shoulder shouting " Go away!).
"Well the milk you left on the stove has boiled over and now you'll have to clean up the mess," she replied.
To which I said, "I'm the only person who ever cleans the stove", which is true.
""Well you'll have to clean that mess up!", and away she went.

A minute later, I had calmed down and went downstairs. The milked hadn't boiled over and made a mess after all.

"I'm going out," I said and left for a few hours leaving her to take care of our son's bedtime.  I came back after they had both gone to bed. Together of course.

I'm sick of her telling me, like a bossy mother what I can and can't do.  Like when she told me that I'm not allowed to send a selfie of my son and me to my family unless it has her in the photo too. Seriously?

I know it stems from her fear of abandonment and she has learned the bossy behaviour from her domineering matriarchal mother, and I should validate the fear. But damn, I'm not going to stand for someone telling me what I should think, or say or how I should communicate with my family.

It really ticked me off.
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Dragon72
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 422


« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2017, 10:19:12 PM »

So here's the latest.

My wife announced this evening that she is going to get a woman to come once a week to help with the housework.

My wife is a Stay At Home Mom with a 3 and a half year old son who goes to a pre-school play group every weekday for 4 hours, then comes home to nap for an hour.

We live in a small, two bedroom house with 1.5 bathrooms, a small kitchen 5'x15', a small dining room, and a small living room.

I work 50 hours per week and do a very respectful amount of ironing, mopping, shopping, cooking, cleaning and childcare to help out when I can, and at weekends I do more than my fair share.

I have tried to suggest a number of times in the past to my wife that she has plenty of time to manage the house. This has resulted without fail in my wife raging, crying, yelling at me and storming out for a number of hours.

The last time I suggested she should be able to manage the house during my work week to free up time for all 3 of us to do fun stuff resulted in a door being slammed on my shoulder and being shouted at to "Go away".

Now, I recognise that being a SAHM is no picnic, but I'm really not happy with her decision to spend money on employing someone to do what I think that my wife (who seems prioritises house work over everything and then moans about it) should be capable of doing in the time that our son is at his play group.

She said that she wants to get some one to help because she "doesn't have time to do anything" right now. Well nor do I. I leave for work at 6.15am while she's still in bed and I get back at about 6.15pm just before she goes to bed again with Junior.

The trouble is, now I'm hesitant to object because it will turn into a full on fight.
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