Vulnerable and not grandiose narcissism

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

It is a commonplace on this website to say that borderlines and narcissists make a fiery pairing. That drew my attention. Does that make me a narcissist? I had an intense relationship with a borderline. In the aftermath, and despite the evidence, it's natural to say, "Hell no, I'm not a narcissist!" I don't abuse others for my profit! That's true. I've read around a bit. There is a neglected distinction between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism. The vulnerable form of of narcissism describes me much better. I must capitulate in the face of the evidence. I am a narcissist. But hold your f***ing horses.

There is currently very little research to distinguish vulnerability and grandiosity in narcissism. To begin with, there is some question whether these are two distinct types or two extremes between which narcissists vary over time. Some narcissists will tend more toward one kind than another but both are capable of either extreme. Narcissism deserves the bad rap, insofar as it is equivalent to grandiose narcissism. Some forms of narcissism are even socially desirable, as in the case of artists.

Just some ideas from a few months reading. Your guidance is welcome.

[beggarsblanket]

It is a commonplace on this website to say that borderlines and narcissists make a fiery pairing. That drew my attention. Does that make me a narcissist? I had an intense relationship with a borderline. In the aftermath, and despite the evidence, it's natural to say, "Hell no, I'm not a narcissist!" I don't abuse others for my profit! That's true. I've read around a bit. There is a neglected distinction between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism. The vulnerable form of of narcissism describes me much better. I must capitulate in the face of the evidence. I am a narcissist. But hold your f***ing horses.

There is currently very little research to distinguish vulnerability and grandiosity in narcissism. To begin with, there is some question whether these are two distinct types or two extremes between which narcissists vary over time. Some narcissists will tend more toward one kind than another but both are capable of either extreme. Narcissism deserves the bad rap, insofar as it is equivalent to grandiose narcissism. Some forms of narcissism are even socially desirable, as in the case of artists.

Just some ideas from a few months reading. Your guidance is welcome.

[woundedPhoenix]

My take on this is, you can have NPD, which is a complete personality disorder built on narcistic core wounds, someone who is completely disconnected from their true selves.

But you can also be a healthier person and still have narcistic core wounds coupled with narcistic defenses, someone who is partially disconnected from their true selves.


A true narcisist lives the illusion that he is better, bigger and more beautiful then whoever is in their lives, the "partial" narcisist is somehow aware of his/her insecurities yet tries to escape them in similar ways.


If i look at my childhood i never really had the feeling i was truely loved, and during adolescense i built myself a rational way out of it to survive, protected by a thick shield of arrogance and chasing a career that would certainly bring me admiration.
I overcompensated my deeper self esteem issues by willpowering myself into the opposite way. And it worked for many years.

This apparent high self-esteem initially attracts the borderline, many borderliners also had a narcistic parent or caregiver, and it is this connection that they try to find back again.
It is this narcistic vibe that they are after, this strength, this inflated ego. But it is mostly based on willpower, and sooner or later that willpower gets exhausted and then the underlying insecurities become exposed once again.

the BPD relationship basically did two things in me:

- it comfirmed me in all my narcistic defenses so that i felt safe enough to bring my wounded inner child out of hiding and really love someone to the core again.
- once i did that, i exposed my inner weaknesses and deeper fears and i was totally prosecuted for them through extreme devaluation.

The lessons that came out of all that eventually was:

- it is an illusion to willpower yourself into loving yourself
- i can be extremely empathic to other people, i just could not "allow" myself to bring up any empathy for my own internal suffering
- self-love is not based on loving the great parts within you, it is based on accepting the "lesser" sides of yourself in a compassionate way.

[Reforming]

Hi beggersblanket,

Good thread.

In the aftermath of my relationship as I learned more about BPD and the dynamic of my relationship I began to realise that I had narcissistic traits.

I'm pretty sure I don't have NPD - I did explore this possibility with my therapists and they dismissed it but I do have traits. Some degree of narcissism can be healthy - particularly if you work in field where abundant self esteem and self confidence are important. But while think I definitely leaned towards the vulnerable side of narcissism I also think there were times when I slipped into grandiosity too.

Initially accepting this was quite uncomfortable but it gave me a new prism to view my own behaviour and personality and that was a gift. I've think I've gained a lot of insight over the last couple of years and I feel a lot healthier.

@woundedPhoenix

I agree with a lot of what you say. In my case the traits that I identify as narcissistic definitely developed as childhood coping mechanisms to loneliness and feeling unloved. I think narcissism is way of over compensating for these deficits by creating and projecting a false self that appears to be bullet proof. But it's built on a very shaky foundations - the assumption that you are special and superior to others - that way they can't hurt you - when deep down you feel the opposite.

I also believed I was kind and empathetic to others but I recognise now that there was also an element grandiosity in this too. I believed I could help (fix) people and that I knew more about what they needed to do than they did (controlling)

I found Schema therapy very helpful - the inner child dialogues in particular really helped me to build a much more compassionate and loving relationship with myself. And while you can't will yourself into self love you can nurture and develop self love by learning new skills. I would describe this as Self Parenting - treating your inner child with kindness and acceptance, praising and validating your own efforts and achievements, reframing mistakes and failures as an important and necessary part of life and working to understand and meet your own needs

It takes time but it's definitely possible.

Thanks for sharing

Reforming

[beggarsblanket]

Thank you both for your compassionate reception. This is the first time I felt I could really open up. Narcissism has such a bad rap. Is it really okay to say that I'm narcissistic, self-absorbed? Maybe it's just a "state," a consequence of my encounter with a BPD other, but I feel so bad about being so self-absorbed. I feel so bad about it that I hurt myself physically. Is that really narcissism? I'm so confused about all this personality talk. Sometimes I think I have BPD or traits of it.

I've had many encounters with psychiatrists, due to my bipolar illness. Only one of them frankly assessed my personality.  She said I had traits of narcissism and obsessive-compulsive personality that could cause problems in my life. I pressed her on this point, and she said neither was a full-blown PD. I guess I should be grateful for that much. I struggle beyond my primary diagnosis.

Two years prior to her assessment, the psychiatrist who diagnosed bipolar asked me about me about childhood. I thought it was a lot of psychoanalytic hoo-hah and rejected the subject. Reading more, six years later, about attachment theory, I wish I had heeded my old psychiatrist's insight. His time was rare and valuable. Hindsight, right?

I have one question for men who have narcissism, traits or disorder: how would you describe your father? I will answer my own question: I looked up to my dad. He died when I was 16, and I've come to revere him in the decades since. I recently shared this reverence with my mother. I said that I have only one memory of the two of them fighting, with raised voices. She wasn't the least surprised. She says that she trusted his judgment and saw him as a source of "wisdom." It bears mentioning that the two of them were 20 years age different. I'm past 40 years of age. My father accomplished great things in his life, by any professional standard. I have accomplished next to nothing. I feel great shame about it.

I know I'm disabled, but I often hurt myself or wish for my death because of my failings. These feelings trouble me. Is it okay to talk about feelings of self-harm in this forum? I don't think I have BPD, but I'm so confused. I could really use some guidance.

[woundedPhoenix]

This is the first time I felt I could really open up. Narcissism has such a bad rap. Is it really okay to say that I'm narcissistic, self-absorbed?

It feels good right to throw it out here, just stating the facts like you see them, and not be judged.

Narcissism without any self-awareness, that is really nasty. I had a colleague once who was full-blown NPD, and we had to fire him cause in the end he brought the whole team near collapse with his mindgames and destructive flavour of grandiosity.
I don't know if he will ever become aware, any constructive talks we had with him eased things for a week whereafter it just got worse: he would stage another selfrighteous mutiny or took easy credit for other peoples hard work.
There also was no way that you could ever win a discussion with him, or agree to disagree, he had to be right, always. however ridiculous his defense was at times.

I had narcistic traits myself though, yet they only flared up under certain conditions.

My father was absent, i was raised by my mother, and maybe i kind of idealised him because of it. Made him bigger then life, something that i noticed when i met him after my first son was born.
There was a ground of truth in the image i had of him, but i had built some extra layers on top.

[beggarsblanket]

It feels good right to throw it out here, just stating the facts like you see them, and not be judged.

It feels frightening to me, but I expect to be judged harshly. I'm glad you're kind.

Narcissism without any self-awareness, that is really nasty.

Close friends of mine recently ditched a roomie. At his worst, he was boasting of being lord of the household, and he ended up threatening a party with a gas grenade. He had many troubles, and he may not have been full-blown NPD, but he was way out of line and currently faces charges for his behaviour.

I had narcistic traits myself though, yet they only flared up under certain conditions.

My traits only showed their worst after things fell through with my ex. I destroyed at least one good friendship, in an argument about religion that I had previously skirted for years prior.

My father was absent, i was raised by my mother, and maybe i kind of idealised him because of it. Made him bigger then life, something that i noticed when i met him after my first son was born.
There was a ground of truth in the image i had of him, but i had built some extra layers on top.

Thank you for this story. It speaks to me. I miss my dad dearly. I wish I had him to guide me, but he would have been too old to cope with a young man. He will never return. I'm stuck with the memories of a 16-year-old. The layers only grow deeper with time. I ask my question because my father had more than a touch of narcissism to him -- perhaps what would qualify as healthy narcissism. To the extent that I've modeled myself on him, I've taken on some of it.

[woundedPhoenix]

Thank you for this story. It speaks to me. I miss my dad dearly. I wish I had him to guide me, but he would have been too old to cope with a young man. He will never return. I'm stuck with the memories of a 16-year-old. The layers only grow deeper with time. I ask my question because my father had more than a touch of narcissism to him -- perhaps what would qualify as healthy narcissism. To the extent that I've modeled myself on him, I've taken on some of it.

If i come to think of it, the person i borrowed my narcistic attitudes from was a teacher i befriended when i was 16-18 years old. I was at that time being raised by my steph dad, as my mother had passed away when i was 11, and i was really lonely with a steph father i hardly knew and couldn't connect with. I doubted myself because of that.

This teacher was kind and interested in me, he was quite the figure though, very opiniated, lots of alternative ideas, and he had no trouble to swim against the stream and fight for what he believed in, he became my guru, yet in hindsight he was equipped with some obvious narcistic drive as well.

I can track down my whole history and can indicate all the events and situations that created the narcistic wounds, and i can also pinpoint the development of narcistic defenses and the "external" succes that it brought.

Now my narcistic defenses don't even work for me anymore. Once you see them you also discover why they are there and that you are actually a slave to the narcistic shield which is bent only on achievement and never allows failure to shield away your own vulnerability.
And you realise that the only road to "internal" success is to finally deal with those narcistic wounds from the inside, face the broken child inside and create a better life for it as a loving father.

[beggarsblanket]

If i come to think of it, the person i borrowed my narcistic attitudes from was a teacher i befriended when i was 16-18 years old. I was at that time being raised by my steph dad, as my mother had passed away when i was 11, and i was really lonely with a steph father i hardly knew and couldn't connect with. I doubted myself because of that.

This teacher was kind and interested in me, he was quite the figure though, very opiniated, lots of alternative ideas, and he had no trouble to swim against the stream and fight for what he believed in, he became my guru, yet in hindsight he was equipped with some obvious narcistic drive as well.

I can track down my whole history and can indicate all the events and situations that created the narcistic wounds, and i can also pinpoint the development of narcistic defenses and the "external" succes that it brought.

Now my narcistic defenses don't even work for me anymore. Once you see them you also discover why they are there and that you are actually a slave to the narcistic shield which is bent only on achievement and never allows failure to shield away your own vulnerability.
And you realise that the only road to "internal" success is to finally deal with those narcistic wounds from the inside, face the broken child inside and create a better life for it as a loving father.

I could well cite you and be done with it, but of course it's not that simple. My dad died of cancer. Leading up to his death, and afterwards, I had befriended a teacher who was everything I imagined I could want in a dad: rode a hog to school, was generally a bad ass, burned incense, played Japanese flute, had his own paranoid and quasi-religious art adorning his classroom walls. He and I ended up hanging out when I left high school. We got drunk together and laid arm-in-arm in his field. He showed me his shotgun. I sold him weed. He gave me one of his knives and said, "Your father would be proud of you." I cried in my girlfriend's lap for a long time after that. The relationship couldn't last. He proved to be a racist and a bigot against the mentally challenged. He was not my dad.

My father was a gentle man, progressive toward women despite his fifty-year advance over me. He cared for religion above all. He had his failings, which I won't share in a public forum, but his marriage was stable. He was more than a provider and loaned my siblings and I many high-minded ideals. I'm the only one among my siblings who is as obsessed with religion as he was. Since his death, I've come to identify myself with him almost totally, except that where he achieved professional excellence, I have achieved none. It is a chronic source of shame. Even knowing that I have a disability (bipolar) is no excuse. Now I struggle.

I've become acutely aware of the old hurts I bear, thanks to this forum and other sources. Thank you.

[beggarsblanket]

I welcome more stories, but I started this thread with attention to the distinction between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism. Is this a distinction recognized in this forum? The two are not the same. Grandiose narcissism is classic narcissism. It is the type emphasized by DSM. Grandiose and vulnerable narcissism alike are recognized in clinical research. Here's a moderately recent (2010) review of research that recognizes the distinction: www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artvit/pincus2010.pdf

[woundedPhoenix]

I welcome more stories, but I started this thread with attention to the distinction between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism.

The distinction is well documented, and there are even more flavours in the narcistic spectrum, even codependancy has similar mechanics as narcicism, and when i look underneath all the layers and analyse my history i see myself more as a vulnerable codependant with some borrowed narcistic defenses :-)

So the question to ask, what is underneath your defenses, what do you see without the "false self" bits.