Radical action needed

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Sorry in advance if this is a bit long and rambling. My partner has more or less self-diagnosed Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, however she displays literally all traits of BPD. She has been in and out of the mental health system since she was 16 and is really staunchly against considering anti-depressants and generally does not believe in the efficacy of the DSM or mental health professionals and pretty much refuses to engage with anything that is part of this system.

She has spend the majority of the last 4 years of so in bed with almost daily bouts of rage, depression, suicidality and general hopelessness.

For context, we have two daughters, 6 and 8 and they have been profoundly affected by what they have witnessed at home. Constant triggering, rages at them and me (more often me) being bed bound for weeks at a time, inappropriate sharing in front of the girls (about why everything is so bad).

My pwuBPD point to her family as being the cause for all the trauma in her life. There has been no history of any family violence or any other capital T trauma, but instead more attachment trauma. This has resulted in much violent communication being sent to her parents and siblings to the point that they are all now estranged and she sees herself as being abandoned by them. Our kids have suffered the most from this estrangement. It all came to a head when her mother was diagnosed with late stage brain cancer a bit over a year ago. She made some efforts to reconnect, but they generally ended up with her flying into a rage at them and then spiralling into depression. Her mother passed away earlier this year and I think that was the final straw for her siblings, they are all really angry with her and probably blame their mother's death on her to some degree.

I find myself completely alone now dealing with her uBPD. She now blames me all the time for not standing up for her in all the situations where family and friends have 'abandoned' her (of which there have been many). She blames me for not being willing to change anything. I recently took 6 weeks off work to travel as a family to try to get some space from life and hopefully make some changes for the better, but as I guess I expected it was pretty awfull. With her depressed and ragefull for a lot of the time, and having serious psychotic episodes in the car in from of our children who were both crying and confused and scared.

Now that we are home she has sunk back down into deep depression and tells me all the time that I am not safe and that she doesn't trust me. In the meantime I have basically been her carer for the past 4 years. I cook all meals, I do all the housework, I manage our finances, I parent our kids 90% of the time and I work fulltime.

I've just had enough, but I seem to be so stuck in hoping that she'll get help, hoping that things will get better, hoping that she'll be a better mother and partner, hoping that she'll reconnect with her family. But there is no evidence to suggest that she is going to change anything. So now I do accept (I think) that it is up to me to change things, but I am so scarred to because she is truly terrifying. I find myself constantly trying to protect the kids from her rage by placating her and apologising to her (she never apologises to me for anything).

I want to leave, but just don't know how to. Our kids are so scared of us breaking up, my 8 year old said to me recently that she could survive us separating. Plus I don't know how to do it financially because she is completely dependent on me. She sees herself as disabled and can never really work again. So I feel like if I leave her she will be destitute and at worst will take her own life.

Sorry about the ramble....

[Tiller]

Sorry in advance if this is a bit long and rambling. My partner has more or less self-diagnosed Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, however she displays literally all traits of BPD. She has been in and out of the mental health system since she was 16 and is really staunchly against considering anti-depressants and generally does not believe in the efficacy of the DSM or mental health professionals and pretty much refuses to engage with anything that is part of this system.

She has spend the majority of the last 4 years of so in bed with almost daily bouts of rage, depression, suicidality and general hopelessness.

For context, we have two daughters, 6 and 8 and they have been profoundly affected by what they have witnessed at home. Constant triggering, rages at them and me (more often me) being bed bound for weeks at a time, inappropriate sharing in front of the girls (about why everything is so bad).

My pwuBPD point to her family as being the cause for all the trauma in her life. There has been no history of any family violence or any other capital T trauma, but instead more attachment trauma. This has resulted in much violent communication being sent to her parents and siblings to the point that they are all now estranged and she sees herself as being abandoned by them. Our kids have suffered the most from this estrangement. It all came to a head when her mother was diagnosed with late stage brain cancer a bit over a year ago. She made some efforts to reconnect, but they generally ended up with her flying into a rage at them and then spiralling into depression. Her mother passed away earlier this year and I think that was the final straw for her siblings, they are all really angry with her and probably blame their mother's death on her to some degree.

I find myself completely alone now dealing with her uBPD. She now blames me all the time for not standing up for her in all the situations where family and friends have 'abandoned' her (of which there have been many). She blames me for not being willing to change anything. I recently took 6 weeks off work to travel as a family to try to get some space from life and hopefully make some changes for the better, but as I guess I expected it was pretty awfull. With her depressed and ragefull for a lot of the time, and having serious psychotic episodes in the car in from of our children who were both crying and confused and scared.

Now that we are home she has sunk back down into deep depression and tells me all the time that I am not safe and that she doesn't trust me. In the meantime I have basically been her carer for the past 4 years. I cook all meals, I do all the housework, I manage our finances, I parent our kids 90% of the time and I work fulltime.

I've just had enough, but I seem to be so stuck in hoping that she'll get help, hoping that things will get better, hoping that she'll be a better mother and partner, hoping that she'll reconnect with her family. But there is no evidence to suggest that she is going to change anything. So now I do accept (I think) that it is up to me to change things, but I am so scarred to because she is truly terrifying. I find myself constantly trying to protect the kids from her rage by placating her and apologising to her (she never apologises to me for anything).

I want to leave, but just don't know how to. Our kids are so scared of us breaking up, my 8 year old said to me recently that she could survive us separating. Plus I don't know how to do it financially because she is completely dependent on me. She sees herself as disabled and can never really work again. So I feel like if I leave her she will be destitute and at worst will take her own life.

Sorry about the ramble....

[ForeverDad]

Welcome though of course the circumstances make it tough.

Sadly, Hopium is not a strategy.  I was married over a decade and noticed that over the years her rants and rages became more and more frequent.  I hoped, appeased, used logic, tried to be positive.  It still worsened over time, especially after we had a child.  Finally, I realized there was no alternative but to start getting my ducks in a row.  I barely got started when I had called the police and my marriage imploded.  Until then she would often barricade herself in bed, she totally changed and only then stopped wallowing in moans, groans and "get out".

Some steps to get your ducks in a row... All this must be on a confidential and private basis.  Sharing your preparations in any way will almost certainly invite obstruction and sabotage.  Sorry.  We've been there, experienced that.

• Priority is yourself and your children.  I know you're worried about your partner but this is basically triage in a near emergency situation.
• You and your children would benefit immensely from counseling.
• You should interview or consult with experienced and proactive local lawyers.  What legal strategies and cautions would they advise?
• Determine who are your local supporters - trusted family, trusted friends (not mutual friends who may side against you)

[Tiller]

Thanks for your reply FD! It’s now a pattern of me going into her bedroom and offering to talk/listen and very soon after she tells me to leave, saying she doesn’t like the tone of my voice/im being aggressive/passive aggressive. It’s so irrational and leaves no room for discussion. This pattern of her attacking and then accusing me of attacking her. There have been some significant psychological breaks in front of the children and I’m really worried about the bong term impact.

I have made an appointment with a family case worker as a first step, and will look into legal avenues. Part of me feels really guilty not care taking her, but this is no way to live. It’s setting an awful example of a relationship to myD6 & D8. I know at some deep level that I’m in a toxic abusive relationship and the best thing to do would be to leave. But it’s going to be very tough emotionally and financially.its also going to feel like the end of the world for my girls, but I has to be better than this right?

At the moment I’m leaving her in her room and not care taking her, not taking her food etc. but I have said that I’m available to talk and listen if she likes, but that I don’t want to do this in her bedroom. Does that sound reasonable?

I am concerned about how much action I am taking behind the scenes in terms of contacting support network to discuss options etc without speaking to her about it. But as you say, it would just inflame the situation. So getting ducks in a row before talking about leaving is probably best.

[Notwendy]

As a an adult child of a widowed BPD mother who seems to be about as affected as your wife, I understand your feeling uncomfortable about not sharing your plans or inquiries with your wife. However, I believe that if discussion with her was effective, you'd be doing it.

For my BPD mother, any sort of conversation that may be uncomfortable for her results in her dissociating- and she doesn't process it. Or she will obsess over it or bring it up in a different context repeatedly again. I think it would help for you to look at the Karpman triangle dynamics. I believe pwBPD take victim perspective.

I don't condone being dishonest or hiding things but when dealing with my BPD mother, not disclosing things to her is a form of self protection from her reactions. I wish our relationship could be different but she is mentally ill and it is what it is.

I understand your girls are fearful of divorce. I think all kids are at that age. Kids can not possibly comprehend the complexity of relationships, marriage, or mental illness at their young ages and even as adults, it's very complex to understand.

I think there are pros and cons to both decisions. As to costs- it's costly to divorce but it was also expensive to stay. My parents stayed together- so I know that situation- I know it's been a difficult relationship but I also know it was my father's decision to make, and nobody else's. I say I wouldn't blame him if he left her either but I can't know the road not taken. I do believe that as long as you are present for your girls and are responsible to them- that the best decision for you is the one you make for your own stability and mental well being.

It's not an easy decision but I believe each person can make the best one for themselves and their family. You don't sound like someone who would abandon responsibilities to your kids or to your wife in either situation- and while you want to be fair to yourself if you do divorce, her mental health issues will be part of that consideration.

Just wanted to say I agree with you keeping your information gathering to yourself for now.

[Outdorenthusiast]

Welcome 

CPTSD and BPD have a lot of overlapping tendencies.  The label is not important- the effect on you and your family is.  You are a good man, and you have honored your values and tried and encouraged- it is not your fault.  You can’t fix her - she has to want to fix herself.

My wife has CPTSD uBPD ADHD and has been in three years of weekly therapy and it was her choice after I said I couldn’t continue like this and she needed help and I wasn’t qualified to do it.  However - I was prepared to leave at its worst due to the emotional abuse happening to myself and my kids. 

Sounds like fear of the unknown (loneliness) and love of the “what if” (memory of the good times and hope for something that isn’t)  has you in its grips.  Don’t over think it.  Your life and your kids are your responsibility.  She is an adult and must be responsible for herself - you don’t need to caretake her.  That is a slippery slope.  When I stopped caretaking and started to make plans to leave - it was an absolute emotional explosion.  But…. It got her into therapy which my kids need whether I am married to her or not.  Explosion was going to happen either way.  I just needed the family and friend group and personal counselor to lean on when it happened.  Get them and get the courage to listen to your gut - it is never wrong.   Then go run, hit the gym, and start building your plan of how to provide the most stable and healthy nurturing environment for your kids. 

Put your oxygen mask on first though.  Do you have a counselor, friends, and family to support you as you walk though this storm?  What steps can you do now to put them in place - regardless of the path?

[Notwendy]

 Your life and your kids are your responsibility.  She is an adult and must be responsible for herself - you don’t need to caretake her.  That is a slippery slope.  When I stopped caretaking and started to make plans to leave - it was an absolute emotional explosion.  But…. It got her into therapy which my kids need whether I am married to her or not. 

Explosion was going to happen either way. 

Wise words here. Caretaking, appeasing, is a downward spiral. Emotional explosion happens and appeasing is a temporary bandaid but in the long run, it reinforces the behavior - doesn't reduce it.

[ForeverDad]

All throughout our lives every comment seems to pressure us to believe that remaining together is better and a better example for our children than separating.  However - and this is a huge however - that is when the two adults are reasonably normal adults.  Throw in acting-out (harming others more than acting inward onto self) disorders and that usual advice may need examination.

There is no single fix that resolves all the concerns.  However, there are partial solutions that can improve circumstances.

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Staying together would mean that's the only example of home life they would have known — discord, conflict, invalidation, alienation attempts, overall craziness, etc... As the saying goes, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives going forward, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.  And some of the flying monkeys too.

[Tiller]

Damn, just had an argument that didn't go very well, but maybe a good start. She messaged me at 2am "I'm still awake at 2:18. Why do you leave me alone for days on end stuck in this state? U can't actually move myself out of it along. You told me all the ways D8 is suffering because she's worried about me and then leave me to go to bed after 20 mins of me finally feeling safe enough to connect tonight (it was 11pm). Why am I so so discusting. My poor daughters. Having a mother that is so discusting and unworthy of love and care and attention-from anyone- must be distressing to watch. I wish freeze wan't my trauma response. The world hates that one just as much as the fight response. Life is invisible chamic pain with severe cptsd. I am so f&%ing alone"

I let her know I was tired as it was 11pm but connected again this morning. She just wrote again from the bedroom
"I'm desperate. I have no one. No other human to turn to in my life. I don't understand when you just leave me to descend steadily into hell-saying let me know if you me to do something? and don't say I have to work, the kids need me etc. don't. After all these years you still act as though you're a helpless victim of what I'm going through, rather than turning towards it and practically emotionally helping me coregulation get out. when I literally can't move my body. I feel like I'm dying-call it brain inflammation, call it what you want and I am -this stress and insomnia is going to kill me with something. It's real. My brain cant work times like this. I can't make plans. I can't brush my teeth or shower let along go out anywhere. I can't remember things 2 minutes later. My whole nervous system is shutdown/or in flight/fight. I need you help I need to feel there's no judgement, straight forward clear thinking help and hope in my midst.  I'm NOT being lazy as you have implied so many times. We've been here so many times yes. Spare me the shame. If I had an other kind of health flare up would you ignore me and imply it's a disaster and I'm traumatising my kids and being lazy/indolent?"

I then went down and expressed that if she had another health issue I would strongly advise her to get medical help as I'm not qualified. I told her that I am desperately unhappy in the relationship and I need her to get professional help. She blew up at this and told me all the ways she's getting help. I then pointed out that she's not had a psychological evaluation or seen a therapist for any consistent period of time. I told her that we have needed couples counselling for years and she has refused. I told her that I am doing everything that I can to support her by over acting. I do all the housework, do the majority of our parenting, work full time and care take her. She then told me that I'm kicking her while she's down and acted mock kicking. I told her I'm not willing to keep going like this. I need her to get professional help. She then told me to get out and has started writing more and more messages as per the above.

[Outdorenthusiast]

Hang in there- you did it correctly.  You are not qualified for this and she is dysregulated and it is going to get worse before it gets better.  She needs professional help.  Hold your ground.  She is an adult and needs to take responsibility for her life.  You can drive her there if you need to.  Your responsibility is yourself and those kids.  Couples therapy won’t work right now - that is for two rational people to work on things together.  Start with getting a therapist in your back pocket for yourself (you will need it to sift through this mountain of feels racing through your body). Some friends to laugh and cry with, and your close family members who love you - no matter what.

You can conveniently leave a pre filtered list of BPD qualified counselors for her that she can choose and call.   You can’t make her go, but you can refuse to do “X” (help, caretake etc.) until she does (this is what I did)%.  If things get really bad (self harming etc.), you can call an ambulance, or the police to help you.

You got this!

[Tiller]

It’s so hard hearing her say”I know you find me repulsive/ disgusting, I know you think I’m ruining your life. It’s hard to hold.

[Notwendy]

To add to Outdoor Enthusiast's post- you've said your perspective and now, don't continue. There is high drama now- both of you are upset. Your wife is dysregulated. There is no way any conversation can be productive in the moment.

You are feeling hurt (legitimately but this is to look at the dynamics) and you speak to her from that perspective- you are doing the dishes, you are unhappy- all of that is true. However, BPD involves disordered thinking. Your perception may not be the same as your wife's.

Before you say anything more to your wife on this topic- please read about the Karpman triangle and also about how not to JADE - there is info on this board.  It's not that your perspective isn't legitimate. It's that communicating in these situations- when she's already emotional and you are too- leads to this.

My BPD mother ( and I think pwBPD in general) sees herself in victim perspective on the Karpman triangle. She's not a victim- but we can not change someone's thinking. To her, if she believes it, she is one. So any kind of statement like she's hurt you, or you do the dishes, to her--- comes across as an attack. Even if you don't have any hurtful intentions- she feels it that way and if she feels it, it must be true.

So how do you communicate? It takes some practice, some learning and whether or not it's effective can vary. BPD is a spectrum. My BPD mother is on the severe end, so this presents a challenge. I can't change how she perceives things or how she feels about them. But I do know one thing- she can barely manage her own feelings and so discussing feelings with her is just too much for her.

From her perspective, we- her family- have been critical of her and invalidating- and in a way, some of this is true as we didn't understand her situation so we did expect her to be capable. She's intelligent and able bodied and so we didn't understand why she stayed in bed a lot. Dad did most of the parenting. This also became a chicken and egg thing- her lack of accomplishment- people need to feel capable and so how could she? Adding to this- BPD wasn't known at the time my parents married and so all my father knew to do was to enable, emotionally caretake- and try to keep her from anything stressful- she didn't learn to do things that perhaps she may have been able to do for herself.

You are in crisis now- let it calm down. Nothing you can say is going to result in her getting up and doing normal "mom" or "wife" things at the moment. Yes, it is unfair that you have taken on most of the house and parenting but if she's not emotionally capable of that- it's the kids who you are doing this for.  Your kids need parents and if your wife can't do it- you can be that parent.

You have said what you need to say. You can make counseling for your wife a contingency but she is the one who has to be willing to do it. I would also suggest it for you as well- to help you cope with what is going on and also how to look at your own behavior in this dynamic.

Change doesn't happen quickly. Your wife may become suddenly sweet and accommodating temporarily but actual change is slower. Old patterns are hard to change, so backtracking happens. You can't change her but you can change your own behavior and you will have to be the one to lead with this. Dynamics involve two people and while you can't change her, changing your behavior may lead to a change in the dynamics. How this works, one can't predict. How long to wait and watch is up to you. The other benefit for you for doing this work is that, even if you decide to divorce, you still have children together, you still need to be able to communicate with each other, and anything you can do to reduce communication drama between you will help with that too.

But for now, in the moment, stop talking about the issue ( don't stonewall or silent treatment- but don't say emotionally reactive things). Read about validating statements (not to validate the invalid- but something like "It must feel hurtful to feel that way" but also don't take responsibility for her feelings- let her calm herself down.

[Outdorenthusiast]

It’s so hard hearing her say”I know you find me repulsive/ disgusting, I know you think I’m ruining your life. It’s hard to hold.

Yes it does hurt, it sucks, and it is NOT your fault.  Those comments are meant to hurt to get you to build her lack of self esteem up - it is called emotional manipulation and emotional abuse.  (Google it - I didn’t know it existed - I know - naive).  My wife does the exact same thing.  Last night the conversation was “I am such a failure, I am so messed up, I am so ugly and broken and so many things are wrong with me and everyone hates me, I fail you and five other people before 8:00am every day…”

The only thing appropriate during those times is to validate their feelings but not take responsibility for them, or try to fix them - that is their responsibility- not yours. Use the S.E.T. technique (Sympathy, Empathy, Truth) “I.e. That must feel so terrible feeling that way, and I can see how much it hurts you to feel those things, and it is tearing you apart inside, and I hear you saying that the world looks like a very dark place…there are ways forward to stop this feeling, but I can’t take them - these are your feelings and something you need to wrestle with and find a way through.  The only thing I can do because I care is provide this list of professionals who can hopefully help more than I can.”

NOT - “we don’t feel that way, we love you, it is fine …blah blah blah” - which doesn’t work.

These comments you get from her will continue to hurt though and you will need the emotional tools your counselor can provide to you so these comments don’t pull you into depression.  You/we aren’t dealing with “normal” and you aren’t a failure.  These emotional management skills aren't taught in normal life to people like us -they are doctorate level emotional and relationship skill sets.  Get your emotional team in place, and keep talking.  You aren’t alone.

[kells76]

Hi Tiller;

It's hard to say what direction your relationship will go. I've heard of similarly intense relationships here (one partner wBPD effectively staying in bed most of the day, not contributing meaningfully to childcare, with multiple psych hospital stays) where the couple was able to stay together and find their own "workable". I've heard of less-intense relationships here where a partner decided to end it.

What I can say is something I was thinking about this morning and that Notwendy brought up:

if she's staying in bed most of the day, then for her to have an opportunity to tell you things means that your contribution is that you're actively soliciting conversation with her (or at minimum "leaving doors open" figuratively for her to toss those words through)

Like Notwendy mentioned, if having a conversation with her would solve things, you both have tried that for years. She sounds way, way, way too raw for anything productive to happen from "talking about it/talking about her". It's possible that a less-wounding (for both of you) option is for you to take the lead on not having conversations/interactions on emotionally charged topics.

It wouldn't mean you get a pass to stonewall/be a jerk about it. "haHA, I don't have to talk to you any more!" It would mean you taking the emotional lead not to go down the road of engaging in that kind of conversation, whether in person or by text. Or, at most, finding the validation target and replying with a neutral emotionally validating response. Anything else just wounds both of you right now.

In a weird way, her staying in bed most of the day is an accurate communication of what her upper limit is. She's not in an emotional place to be interacting, communicating, or contributing. That doesn't mean it's really functional or high-skill... but it does seem honest.

Someone has to stop the following circular/hurtful interactions and she doesn't have the skills to do it:

She messaged me at 2am ...

I let her know I was tired as it was 11pm but connected again this morning.

She just wrote again from the bedroom ...

I then went down and expressed that if she had another health issue I would strongly advise her to get medical help as I'm not qualified. I told her that I am desperately unhappy in the relationship and I need her to get professional help.

She blew up at this and told me all the ways she's getting help.

I then pointed out that she's not had a psychological evaluation or seen a therapist for any consistent period of time.

I told her that we have needed couples counselling for years and she has refused. I told her that I am doing everything that I can to support her by over acting. I do all the housework, do the majority of our parenting, work full time and care take her.

She then told me that I'm kicking her while she's down and acted mock kicking. I told her I'm not willing to keep going like this. I need her to get professional help.

She then told me to get out and has started writing more and more messages as per the above.

What would it be like for you to stop soliciting, or being open to, or keeping going, those conversations with her? You could start there and see what happens in your relationship and the home dynamic. That would give you information to help you in your decision making process. It seems like you have nothing to lose by making that change.

Whether you choose to stay in your relationship and the two of you "find your own workable", or whether you choose to end the relationship, finding a way to turn down the hurtful emotional intensity will be critical.

[ForeverDad]

Oh, those infamous late night determined statements, "We will fix this tonight!"  Of course, it was 1 or 2 AM and I had to get up early the next morning for work, but she demanded a fix, her fix where I would appease or concede, in the wee hours of the morning.

BTW - Nothing ever did fixed, and especially not in the middle of the night.

[Tiller]

Hi all, thanks for your responses. It’s really helpful.

I just had the folllowing interaction and was wondering whether you think my response is on the right track:

Partner: You have a special way of confirming the overwhelming parts of me that I am disgusting and will always be abandoned in the end. And that me having those parts in me, telling me, that, is just annoying to you. I'm cancelling our friends staying tomorrow. I can't pretend for anyone atm. We can't pretend. You're continually saying you 'can't do this anymore.' I say Im disgusting and you confirm it all by walking away. half heartedly saying no you're not as you go. thats because We both know I am, and it's a mistake that I'm still alive at all.


Me: I really care about you and am really concerned about your well-being, I see that you’re feeling really terrible and alone and don’t know where to turn and I am not able to much more than I’m doing. That must be really hard. I feel that it is time to get some more support and get a plan together. I would like to work with you to find some more support because as I said, I can’t do more than I’m doing.

[Outdorenthusiast]

Me: I really care about you and am really concerned about your well-being, I see that you’re feeling really terrible and alone and don’t know where to turn and I am not able to much more than I’m doing. That must be really hard. I feel that it is time to get some more support and get a plan together. I would like to work with you to find some more support because as I said, I can’t do more than I’m doing.

Good start on validating her feelings and starting to put down a personal boundary.  I am sure some others will have some additional great points to add.  This won’t be the last conversation on this topic, and it will get ugly with an extinction burst before it gets better.   

Recommend a few thoughts.
1) She is not in a good frame of mind right now.  You will need to do the legwork to identify professional resources she can see, and then give them to her with the phone numbers.  But you can’t make her go - she has to own that step herself.
2) Cutting you off from friends is a very slippery slope.  Don’t let her cut you off from people that can support you.  Instead an alternative could be you going to their house - or them coming over - but she stays in her room.  You know her best, but cutting you off from your friends because of how she feels has negative consequences to you.  Your friends should not be linked to her feelings because you can’t control her feelings.
3) Continue to acknowledge her feelings, and validate, but remind her that they are hers and you can’t fix them - that is up to her and someone with more professional skills than you.
4) Explore the idea of sharing your feelings if you feel safe to do so (afraid, frustrated, angry - etc.) and that although you care - you can’t continue down this path she is going as it isn’t healthy for you.  And.. what you will do if she continues (i.e. spend time with the kids in the next room, stop coming in her room and facilitating her state etc..) - make it a realistic action that feels healthy for you, and something she can’t control- only you can.

Final recommendation- Start building plan B of your exit strategy if you decide that is the healthier way to go.  Doesn’t mean you have to take it - but don’t just sit there either.  Take an active role in your destiny.

[Tiller]

I’m working on getting my ducks in a row in the background, but I. The meantime I’m still finding myself continuing to try to play rescuer in many interactions. I’ve communicated that I’m not willing to be yelled at and if she does I will leave the room. This just happened and I left and she started saying that emotions are a normal part of relationships and that I’m being an a$$hole for triggering a trauma spiral before bed and then leaving her to not sleep. Telling me that if the roles were reversed she would  comfort me and not leave me. Told me how alone she is. I mind this so tough to hold my ground, part of me feels really unreasonable and mean. But I’m note JADEing her right now, just saying I’m not willing to be yelled at, but am willing to talk again we we are both feeling calmer. Does this sound reasonable? Because I’m feeling like a bad partner right now.

[Tiller]

Massive extinction event. After holding my ground and not engaging, my D8 woke up and I went to help her get back to sleep. My partner then came up and said she’s going to drive to the hospital and my daughter totally freaked out, then my daughter started to try care take her. The parentification is really concerning. She’s continuing ranting and saying how angry I am at her. Saying that she can’t believe I’m leaving her alone. It feels really. She is furious that I’m trying to put boundaries in place saying that I’m  kicking her while she’s down. I’ve remained calm and said very little. I got my daughter to go back to bed, but wow, talk about a traumatic experience for her. I’m feeling so ost and conflicted about what to do/ not do…

[kells76]

My partner then came up and said she’s going to drive to the hospital and my daughter totally freaked out, then my daughter started to try care take her. The parentification is really concerning. She’s continuing ranting and saying how angry I am at her. Saying that she can’t believe I’m leaving her alone. It feels really. She is furious that I’m trying to put boundaries in place saying that I’m  kicking her while she’s down. I’ve remained calm and said very little. I got my daughter to go back to bed, but wow, talk about a traumatic experience for her. I’m feeling so ost and conflicted about what to do/ not do…

If your partner feels unwell enough to need the hospital and can also activate herself enough to take action to get there, that is a good thing.

If she becomes unwell enough where she does not feel able to drive any more, then you could call an ambulance or non-emergency medical transportation service for her.

Is she following through on getting herself to the hospital?

...

Parentification is going to be a long-term thing to turn around. Neutral third party counseling for the kids will be important there.

That being said, in the short term, your framing of it to your D8 can help: "Mommy said she was feeling pretty bad. If you're feeling bad enough, going to see a doctor is a good idea. Mommy is making a good choice to see a doctor. Doctors are the experts, so none of us have to worry or help, that's the doctor's job." Or something like that in your own words.

[Outdorenthusiast]

This is not a fun thing to go through, and I can see that it is painful emotionally right now.  I wish I could say this doesn’t happen - but it does.  Hang in there.  My wife did the same and said similar.  They have been using us to “fix” their feelings - which is not possible, and not our responsibility.  That is for the professionals to do.

As to feeling lost and what to do/not to do.  Your job is to focus on yourself and your kids.  Let the professionals take care of her.  Focus on your personal emotional support during these boundary setting times- your counselor, friends, and family will be important for you.  As Kells said - get professional help for your kids too, and also from my experience- take them out of the environment on Daddy dates and laugh/have fun or just talk.  Home can be a pressure cooker.

Are you doing the right thing? -  If a personal boundary is being crossed - you will feel bad/angry/sick/ etc.    This is when you know you are doing the right thing by creating it and holding it.  Something important to you is being violated. 

It feels scary to enforce a boundary in the face of an extinction burst, but it is your boundary - of course they don’t want it.  The more you rebuild what “should be” the easier the boundaries will become.

- Outdoor

[Notwendy]

I've been that parentified child. I think it's unavoidable.

How does one mitigate it? Do you have family who can have your children visit for a bit? Or you take the kids out yourself without their mother and do some fun things together. Dad would take us to the zoo, the park, movies -without BPD mother. If she went along on a family outing- the focus was on her and her needs.

During some school breaks, we would stay with my father's family.

Think of ways you can have the kids get a fun experience- outings with you, with family, summer fun classes or camps, visiting family. Present it to your wife as a day to herself to do what she wants to do.

[ForeverDad]

Hang in there...  They have been using us to “fix” their feelings - which is not possible, and not our responsibility.  That is for the professionals to do.

Why can therapy guided by professionals succeed, if the pwBPD accepts it and responds, when we couldn't make headway over many years?  What is sabotaging us?

It has often been commented that one of the reasons we couldn't "fix" the ex is that it's an aspect of the disorder.  BPD is a disorder of close relationships.  The Denial, Blaming and Blame Shifting are so intense that the pwBPD cannot or will not get past the emotional baggage (perceived garbage) of the relationship long enough to truly Listen.  We have to accept that.  We'll never "fix" the ex.

Ex would have to want to fix herself, enough to diligently apply long term therapy.

A counselor is objectively and emotionally neutral.  Long ago I read "Get Me Out of Here".  I don't remember much about it except how it ended which emphasized why the role of a counselor was so helpful... it was not an emotional relationship.

This reminds me of a post I made recently.  This woman, after years of therapy, did recover from BPD but she emphasized her therapist always maintained a professional separation, no emotional strings.

Have you read Get Me Out of Here — My Recovery from Borderline Personality Disorder by Rachel Reiland?  It's a paperback account by someone recovered from BPD.  It was exceedingly tough for her, but it turned out well for her and her family.

What helped so much was that her therapist drew a strong line/boundary concerning their interactions.  Her therapist remained absolutely neutral emotionally, not even touching.  (That's why you bear so much of the brunt of her behaviors, because your spouse can't get past the past emotional baggage of the years of close relationship with you to really listen to you.)

That book ended on a high note.  Only when her therapy was completed, she got to hug her therapist for the very first and only time.

[Tiller]

I’m finding it challenging knowing how to interact and find myself avoiding my partner. She is definitely noticing this and I find myself wanting to JADE. She is so articulate and convincing when she details how all she needs is a leg up, somebody to help plan, somebody to take her for a walk. She tells me how no therapist can help her, she’s been there before and there is no help there. She is so matter of fact and confident that she has control over things and she just needs support. Now don’t get me wrong, I know this thinking and these patterns, I’ve seen them so many times before. But it’s tempting to think “maybe I just need to give more”.


I’m feeling like something has really broken for me now in the relationship and am just trying to work out next steps. But I can see make the actual decision to leave is going be the hardest thing I’ve ever done.

[ForeverDad]

But I can see make the actual decision to leave is going be the hardest thing I’ve ever done.

In case I've said this before I don't want to be a nuisance or false alarm, but you may not get to decide the timing when you leave.

First, unless the other person is in progressing therapy, the pattern is for everything to get worse overtime.  Sure, there may be some calmer periods where you are hoping you have more time, but overall is downhill.

Second, many of us separated by surprise, by some incident that just flared up.  We were waiting for the "perfect time", or working toward it, but reality and unforeseen events arose.

This is not to say the typical incidents will not occur in your outcome.  We just don't know in advance but if you're preparing for whatever then at least your experience will be "less bad".

[Outdorenthusiast]

…
I’m feeling like something has really broken for me now in the relationship and am just trying to work out next steps. But I can see make the actual decision to leave is going be the hardest thing I’ve ever done.

Whatever path you take - it will be emotionally hard.

A book I could recommend to help you work through feelings  - “Too good to leave, too bad to stay” - Mira Kirschenbaum, and if you decide “leave” is the path - “Splitting” - Bill Eddy.

-Outdoor

[rosemallow]

I find myself in this same dilemma so often. Things hit a fever point, I'm right down there with my BPD spouse in his misery spiral, and I know I have to leave to save myself and our kids, ages 3 & 5. Then he comes out of it, is his "normal" self again, and I remember why I stay. But it's wearing me out so badly. I was on suicide watch an entire day this weekend, running after him and saving him from precarious situations, followed by hours of pep talks around why he should live, followed by witnessing violent outbursts (towards himself and property, not us).

And nobody else (other than folks here, I guess) understands. My friends think i'm crazy for not leaving. I feel guilty that I'm endangering the emotional health of my kids. But their dad is good when he's well. "They need their father" sounds like an excuse but I don't believe it is, I believe they need him, and he needs them. He shares parenting duties with me and I don't want to do this alone. I want to be a family. But I feel like I'm deceiving myself that things will ever get better, and I am often overcome with grief over the times I lost with my young kids being depressed and hopeless.

It's just so hard to know what to do.

[ForeverDad]

I was on suicide watch an entire day this weekend, running after him and saving him from precarious situations, followed by hours of pep talks around why he should live, followed by witnessing violent outbursts (towards himself and property, not us).

Some jurisdictions consider witnessing violence as a form of DV or child abuse.  Do you know what level of exposure is considered 'actionable' in your area?  Not just for his actions, but also whether you bear responsibility for allowing their exposure.

While we can't decide for you what your tipping point is, we do understand your dilemma.  But the reality is you cannot save him from himself, likely you can't be on guard 24/7/365.  And if you, an adult, are frazzled, imagine what the little kids are exposed to every time their world turns upside down.

[Outdorenthusiast]

I’m finding it challenging knowing how to interact and find myself avoiding my partner. She is definitely noticing this and I find myself wanting to JADE.

What you feel is normal.  I felt it too.  It is overwhelming, and confusing, and I felt I didn’t have the skills to manage the intensive emotional manipulation.  Separation physically sometimes can help you clear your head and make sense of things.  Avoidance helps start emotionally moving away from enmeshment that does occur with a strong emotional persona.  What you feel and how you are acting is not unique.  It is ok to have that personal space to think while she is exploding or imploding.  It feels foreign and guilty, but remember - is not your responsibility to regulate her feelings - that is hers to figure out with a professional.   If she wants a help or a “leg up” from you - you can find her a list of therapists, or drive her to one.  You aren’t cruel, - that is the fear, obligation, and guilt (FOG) side effect caused by BPD to us.   You are realistic about your limitations and capabilities - this is more than enough and ok.

Hang in there.
Outdoorenthusiast

[GaGrl]

If, as your wife insists, she is in control, you would not get the 11 PM and 2 AM texts that come from her dark emotions. Those texts are not from someone "in control" that just needs support and a hand up. Those are the very articulate words of a person in deep and dark despair.

Don't discard those texts. If you receive help from family assistance/a social worker, they need the full picture. You are not capable of solving her situation. Help needs to come from outside your household at this time.