The fact the person you loved didn't exist

[findinggratitude]

I'm struggling with two elements of the breakup (or really, sudden abandonment of the relationship by ex). One is the fact that the person she believes I am is clearly someone absolutely terrible, otherwise she would not have just jumped ship without any real explanation besides "doubt" and "not being able to trust wholeheartedly." Bear in mind, this is the person who told me a few days previously that her "heart was rooted in me" and followed it with the break-up email (email! after a two year relationship) saying "her heart was out of it and she needed this relationship to be done!". So, not sure if doubt and trust should be applied to me, ahem. Similarly, her inability to specify the "whys" of this doubt and mistrust speaks volumes; I believe it's just her internal inability to do so period.

That said, I am really sad to realize that the loyal, sweet, emotionally generous and intelligent person I believed her to be simply does not exist. That "version" of her can only be presented when she doesn't feel threatened or wants something from me. Because as soon as she decided I had nothing to offer, that evaporated and what remained was cruelty and a weird obliteration of a relationship that had taken so much care and communication to build. When she started withdrawing previously (in hindsight) I actually said to her that if we needed to reassess, I wanted to do it graciously, kindly, with the same attention and intention with which we entered the dynamic. She agreed. At that point I thought we might just need some time, or maybe to reevaluate, I'm not even sure. I suspect I was just feeling her markedly different energy (in her case she didn't rage but instead tended to withdraw to the point of taking to her bed and sleeping for a day or two, or claiming depression, which may or may not have been true) and, as always, trying to make things easier for her, to give her space to say what she needed. But, instead she just had a very quiet and noncommunicative day the day before the grand finale/combustion, told me she loved me the night before and emailed me that she was done the next morning. The change in energy was shocking. She went from calm and somewhat withdrawn but sweet, to almost jocular and slightly combattive in the email-starting it with Hey, ......I wanted to call you but....and then just very concisely ended things.

So, any grace or kindness was removed from her demeanor, when those were elements that were key aspects of her "personality" previously. I always deeply appreciated how attuned she seemed to others (me) and how sensitive and careful she was about my feelings. But this email was written as if by a different person than the girl who had written me so many letters before. Now, of course I was devastated by the content of the email, but what truly struck me was the change in tone, and even vocabulary. It's so confusing, and truly, as if a different person wrote it. So, I am left to wonder which version of her was real, and have come to the conclusion that probably neither really is. I would almost prefer the cruel one to be real, because I could attach to that and "fall out of love" more easily. But instead, it's almost like I fell in love with no-one. And the fact she disappeared entirely makes it feel that way even that more.

[SnailShell]

A similar thing happened with me -

My ex broke things off three times, but the last time she totally changed.

She suddenly went flat, distant and seemed to lack recognition of me.

She certainly didn't seem to care much...

As you say, she was chatty and sweet each time before - although a little withdrawn perhaps compared to normal.

Then we reconnected two months later... we agreed to be friends for a short time to get to know each other again without pressure - but we both said that we felt we loved each other.

A week later? Gone.

Then she came and went for about two months before randomly getting a new guy; didn't tell me, and three months later, they're engaged!

I also saw her personality shift at other times too though - when we met up again two months after the break up, she was super belligerent - swearing at the TV and being really loud and boisterous.

She laughed so hard at a meme, she was crying floods of tears - really over the top.

Sometimes she had a lisp, other times she didn't...

I came away feeling that I liked who I THOUGHT she might be, if I squinted and turned my head at an angle; but feeling like I also had no idea who she was at all.

I realised when we reconnected - I didn't feel safe, and I didn't ACTUALLY have the feeling of returning to someone I recognised or knew. Not really.

She could've been a stranger, in some ways...

[SnailShell]

Oh yeah, and the reason I eventually cut contact was that I'd experienced that 'cold, mean' side once too often.

If we're describing the same thing, it sure felt like she'd just kinda decided to chuck me out; and act all cold and distant afterwards.

In truth, i think her mental health had done a few backflips and she couldn't maintain things any longer. I might be wrong though!

[findinggratitude]

Exactly, snailshell. It's reassuring to know so many of our experiences are so similar, no?

It's funny because my ex was very introverted so she looked to me to "lead" in most situations, especially socially. She literally would say, "I'm going to follow the leader." In many ways I felt like I was with a timid child a lot of the time, though she also possessed the wonder and gleefulness of a child at times that was appealing.

That said, your word "boisterous" struck a chod because when she was happy or excited about something she became downright rambunctious and sort of out-of-control with her "I am SO HAPPY" vibe. When this happened it felt just "off", and I didn't really like that version of her because it felt untethered and ungrounded.

But the flat, distant and totally disengaged version is the worst. Likely because she was so hyper-engaged when she was engaged. To the point I wanted a break sometimes. Anyway, thanks for responding to my posts ...I think at this stage I'm still looking for some kind of reinforcement or something.

[seekingtheway]

Hi there,

I read through your initial post as well as this one and there's a lot in there that I can identify with, and I'm sure many other people do too.

I've spent a lot of time thinking on that question of who my ex really was... and I've settled on a few conclusions. The idealisation was based on his fear of abandonment, and therefore wasn't real. So the talk about me being his soulmate, that he would never leave, he'd found his person, that his heart would always be with me, that he'd never get over me, nobody had ever understood him the way I did, marriage, kids... etc, that was what he thought I needed to hear in order to stay (and he wasn't wrong!)... it was his fear of abandonment speaking, not him.

And then in the devaluation stage, when he was suddenly cold, distant, posting nasty things about me online, saying that the relationship was never any good, that I was a psycho – this was his shame speaking because deep down he knows the damage he does and it's a terrible thing to know that, and also it's the lack of whole object constancy that is seen in BPD, where he's unable to hold any of my more difficult parts at the same time as remembering all of my good parts.

But there was a lot that remained in between these two ways of being - and it's this part of our relationship that I hold as real and true. We did have a real connection and shared interests, and a similar sense of humour, and affection and care for each other. We shared a lot of normal moments amongst the chaos.

The way my psych talks about BPD is that it's a fault line running through a person, and what triggers the earthquakes is love and intimacy. I like this analogy, because it allows me to remember that he's a real, genuinely good, interesting, amazing man in many ways, but the fault line was always going to get triggered just from the fact he was in a relationship with me. The fault line makes it impossible to stay close. There are all of these protective mechanisms that prevented me from getting truly close in terms of true intimacy... but the fear of abandonment meant he'd also never really let me go.

The other thing at play is an unstable sense of self. I know of someone with BPD who has changed these accent a couple of times, and with the other couple of people I know with BPD, there is a constant shifting of values, interests, hobbies... there is a sense of slipperiness... trying to grasp something that doesn't exist. This is the nature of BPD - it's not to try and trick you, it's literally someone trying to fill a painful void.

In your situation, you've just had a very shocking ending, where you have indeed been abandoned by someone you loved and you thought loved you. It's a common ending for so many of us here and it does cause trauma and is one of the hardest things to process, so I think the healing is about giving yourself whatever understanding and time you need in order to soften that blow, and remember none of this is about a deficiency within yourself or your worth.

[Under The Bridge]

I can concur with everything said - eventually you do realise that the person you thought you knew was merely one 'colour' of the chameleon, ever-changing to suit their needs at the time.

I've always thought of it as a roulette wheel - it gets spun all the time and you're always hoping the ball drops into the red (nice person) slot or the black (split and hating you) slot. Every time I sat waiting for my ex to arrive for an evening out I was wondering if the ball had dropped into the good slot tonight. I was in the same nervous state just as if I had a million pound bet going in a real casino. It's no way to be.

Snailshell said that he'd  experienced that 'cold, mean' side once too often' and it was the same for me. Normal moods and splits were bad enough but the final one was totally off the scale and that's when I called it a day and simply stopped chasing her any more. Never seen her since ,though I heard much later that she came into our local pub some time afterwards with her mother, which she always did as an indication that she wanted to see me again (though naturally I had to approach her even though I was the innocent one). Too late though; I was no longer there.

So you're not alone in what happened - the sad thing about BPD is that all our stories are so scarily identical, like a script.. and once that script starts running, the ending is usually the same too. I spoke to my ex's sister in law a while ago and she said my ex is still the same - splitting from her partner all the time so I know I dodged a bullet.

[findinggratitude]

Thank you Seeking and Under for such thoughtful and informative replies.

The fault-line you mentioned, Seeking, is really a perfect image and truth in the relationship. It also helps to eliminate some of the anger and hurt, which aren't really helpful for me and honestly just cause more confusion. Interestingly, I was always using similar nature analogies to define the relationship, like tornado and black hole. And the nervousness you mention, Under, is also something I experienced. I was always feeling like I was going to be HIT with an accusation. She wasn't so much aggressive in those accusations, as vague, and there was simply always something undefined that I wasn't fulfilling, and I think that speaks to the disorder as well.

I have to take responsibility for the fact I was aware on some subconscious level of these things before we became romantic partners. She absolutely was looking for rescue and saving, and that is a role I wanted to fulfill, and it was almost like an exercise for me to see who I could be as a helpful and guiding person, which made me feel like I was also guiding myself in a way. But with time she resented this. She went from "You are my everything" (which scared me, weeks into the relationship) and "I am prepared to give up my life to be with you" to a flip of "I want to lead the life I want" (chaotic and shifting as far as jobs and homes...she moved 6 times in a YEAR) and "I LIKE my roaming qualities" when I didn't ask her to change them (though they were unsettling). She wanted to settle down and live with me, and then suddenly "am not ready to settle down" when honestly I resisted it to begin with because it felt too soon. It's all so hard to explain, still, but I appreciate you all helping me out. Mainly it was that DEEP dependency and asking for guidance about every little thing (literally all day every day) to suddenly needing to "live her own life" when I had begged her to do that for two years. I can see now my attempts to make things healthier; I talked about pacing a lot, but she only knows how to operate at 100mph or a complete stop and crash and burn.

[findinggratitude]

The slipperiness too! That's a perfect way to put it. It's not necessarily cagey or "shady" but the literal definition of the word. There is little to hold onto as far as their very "self", even when it comes to shifting interests. I think we depend on people to have a consistency of character and personality. She frequently told me how much she needed consistency and reassurance and constant affection....but I don't think she understands that consistency also comes in the form of personality and values and just plain interests. That slipperiness is sort of what I am referring to in the title of this thread. It goes beyond their abysmal treatment of us, and is inherent in their very makeup and its scary and very sad.

[SnailShell]

Exactly, snailshell. It's reassuring to know so many of our experiences are so similar, no?

It's funny because my ex was very introverted so she looked to me to "lead" in most situations, especially socially. She literally would say, "I'm going to follow the leader." In many ways I felt like I was with a timid child a lot of the time, though she also possessed the wonder and gleefulness of a child at times that was appealing.

That said, your word "boisterous" struck a chod because when she was happy or excited about something she became downright rambunctious and sort of out-of-control with her "I am SO HAPPY" vibe. When this happened it felt just "off", and I didn't really like that version of her because it felt untethered and ungrounded.

But the flat, distant and totally disengaged version is the worst. Likely because she was so hyper-engaged when she was engaged. To the point I wanted a break sometimes. Anyway, thanks for responding to my posts ...I think at this stage I'm still looking for some kind of reinforcement or something.

Yeah, I totally get that.

I definitely relate to that 'untethered' feeling.
A couple of times, my ex got really kinda... 'hyper-happy' and would punch me in the ribs or something.

I don't mean a full-on right hook, I just mean a dig.

And I usually didn't mind it - it could be kind of cute.

But when I wasn't expecting it, it could also hurt and be kind of annoying.

If it wasn't for everything else, it'd be fine - but because of all of the other behaviours, it also made me a little uncomfortable at times... mostly because it involved hitting - and maybe low impulse control or something.

But you see these psychology-type terms (low impulse control etc)?

You shouldn't really have to use those with your girlfriend/boyfriend too often, I don't think.

Okay, there's no harm in being informed; but when those terms become a way of contextualising whole sections of the relationship... I don't know... that seems off, somehow...

[SnailShell]

Thank you Seeking and Under for such thoughtful and informative replies.

The fault-line you mentioned, Seeking, is really a perfect image and truth in the relationship. It also helps to eliminate some of the anger and hurt, which aren't really helpful for me and honestly just cause more confusion. Interestingly, I was always using similar nature analogies to define the relationship, like tornado and black hole. And the nervousness you mention, Under, is also something I experienced. I was always feeling like I was going to be HIT with an accusation. She wasn't so much aggressive in those accusations, as vague, and there was simply always something undefined that I wasn't fulfilling, and I think that speaks to the disorder as well.

I have to take responsibility for the fact I was aware on some subconscious level of these things before we became romantic partners. She absolutely was looking for rescue and saving, and that is a role I wanted to fulfill, and it was almost like an exercise for me to see who I could be as a helpful and guiding person, which made me feel like I was also guiding myself in a way. But with time she resented this. She went from "You are my everything" (which scared me, weeks into the relationship) and "I am prepared to give up my life to be with you" to a flip of "I want to lead the life I want" (chaotic and shifting as far as jobs and homes...she moved 6 times in a YEAR) and "I LIKE my roaming qualities" when I didn't ask her to change them (though they were unsettling). She wanted to settle down and live with me, and then suddenly "am not ready to settle down" when honestly I resisted it to begin with because it felt too soon. It's all so hard to explain, still, but I appreciate you all helping me out. Mainly it was that DEEP dependency and asking for guidance about every little thing (literally all day every day) to suddenly needing to "live her own life" when I had begged her to do that for two years. I can see now my attempts to make things healthier; I talked about pacing a lot, but she only knows how to operate at 100mph or a complete stop and crash and burn.

I also relate to some of what you wrote here.

My ex asked me if I'd like her to move city to be with me within a few weeks.

I was amazed to be honest - not necessarily in a good way... it just shocked me that she'd offer so early.

She also said things like "I don't think I'll ever find something out about you that I don't like." - again within a few weeks.

By the end, I'd moved to be with her.
I pointed this out to her a number of times when she said that I didn't care about her.

Eventually, she started to say "I'd never ASK you to move to be with me [which just wasn't true by the way - she put a lot of pressure on for me to move] - after all [she said], I'd never move to be with you!" - which she said through a humourless laugh, but the message was clear.

And yup - that swing from all to nothing - absolutely killer.

Extremely confusing.

Mostly trying to hold both extremes at the same time from the same person; and being able to remember that they were both present, when it can be so easy to focus on only one of them at a time.

[findinggratitude]

I also heard, during those first weeks, "I could never be mad at you," "You give the sky its color", "You are the most important person in my life," and a million more very sweeping statements like this. I remember thinking, "Yikessss, I don't WANT to be someone's most important person after such a short time. How could I be?" Or favorite person (should have taken note of that). It was truly as if her entire life was irrelevant to her and she was ready to just be IN my presence, which would fill her. She would follow me everywhere I went, claiming ," I never want to take a moment with you for granted," when sometimes it was just a hassle to have her there like a puppy. I remember telling her that I wasn't THAT great, and I meant it, because I knew I couldn't live up to the hype she had created in her head. And ultimately, I didn't, because no one could. And also, I think she expected the same utter adoration and blind drive to be in her presence at all time, which was something I didn't feel. It very much felt like I had to explain to her what love "really" is and because I didn't behave the way she did, she most definitely felt I was the one "less in love"...she mentioned this frequently. But I was just not obsessed and blind. Meanwhile though, I think my ego has taken a tremendous hit since she just declared she needed to "go NC", again, hours after professing her love and days before we were going to travel together, because while really, it's the same flip side of the coin of her adoration, it's nevertheless upsetting to have been adored to much and then (apparently) hated and disregarded entirely. I could have responded to the email asking questions, but decided right then and there to just go silent because it became abundantly clear to me that any attempt to communicate would just wind up in more heartache and confusion. I suspect she's probably decided I'm the cruel and heartless one for not responding and that I skipped away easily (she always said she knew I would do that if given the chance, and that it would take her years to get over me) and now here I am taking months and she's the skipper awayer (yup, that's a word ;). It's enough to make your brain combust.

[Flower1]

 
by reading the post and its answers we would almost be tempted to say to repush the bpd person when he says "I love you"...."You are the most important person in my life,"
what advice do psychologists give when the bpd person acts like this? 
What is recommended to say to the person does not fall into the opposite direction or negative way?

[HoratioX]

Many of us have had similar troubling experiences. With my ex, she could be quite different from week to week or even day to day. I mean that quite literally.

Her voice would change sometimes, going from girlishly childlike to deeper and threatening. Her face would look different because something about either the expression or how she carried herself would distort the features so they looked different -- soft and innocent one day and hard and worldly the next. Even her body language could change, as she might walk or gesture differently.  This may sound almost paranormal, but she could look quite different from one photograph to the next, even taken around the same time. I'm not talking about the normal differences because of angle or lighting, but a kind of "otherness" where the essence of the person is not the same.

Now, keep in mind people with BPD (and anxiety and CPTSD) often have comorbid issues as well. That is, they can be BPD but also have issues with, say, Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Histrionic Personality Disorder. BPD is a "cluster B" personality disorder whose symptoms can overlap with others in the same cluster, too. So your ex with BPD might well have had multiple issues. Part of that seems to be related with how challenging it is to diagnose someone in the first place.

With mine, for instance, depending on the therapist (and how much I believe what my ex told me), she had anxiety, CPTSD, or BPD.  My gut says she definitely had BPD with elements of sociopathy and Dissociative Personality Disorder, which used to be called Multiple Personality Disorder.

No, I'm not a therapist nor do I have much knowledge beyond a few classes and what I read online. I could absolutely be wrong. But mine was clearly conscienceless about his actions and -- here's the kicker -- seemed to have little to no regard about dragging her child through the chaos and destruction my ex caused, despite claiming to love that child more than anything else. That child was always her anchor point, or so she claimed. However, the child got pulled into the disruptive life my ex created.

And when she seemed to become a different personality, it seemed to go beyond just the sort of "act" that someone with BPD might have when trying to appeal to the next favorite person in their life. Even my friends remarked how she looked and seemed an entirely different person when we met socially on two occasions a few months apart.

So, the notion of never really knowing the person with BPD, I think, is pretty accurate. With mine, I could see a bare minimum baseline of what might have been called a personality, but I can't really say I know for certain. She was an extraordinary liar and con artist, so who knows what was real or not. But, truth is, it doesn't matter. What matters is getting away from such a person.

[HoratioX]

Many of us have had similar troubling experiences. With my ex, she could be quite different from week to week or even day to day. I mean that quite literally.

Her voice would change sometimes, going from girlishly childlike to deeper and threatening. Her face would look different because something about either the expression or how she carried herself would distort the features so they looked different -- soft and innocent one day and hard and worldly the next. Even her body language could change, as she might walk or gesture differently.  This may sound almost paranormal, but she could look quite different from one photograph to the next, even taken around the same time. I'm not talking about the normal differences because of angle or lighting, but a kind of "otherness" where the essence of the person is not the same.

Now, keep in mind people with BPD (and anxiety and CPTSD) often have comorbid issues as well. That is, they can be BPD but also have issues with, say, Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Histrionic Personality Disorder. BPD is a "cluster B" personality disorder whose symptoms can overlap with others in the same cluster, too. So your ex with BPD might well have had multiple issues. Part of that seems to be related with how challenging it is to diagnose someone in the first place.

With mine, for instance, depending on the therapist (and how much I believe what my ex told me), she had anxiety, CPTSD, or BPD.  My gut says she definitely had BPD with elements of sociopathy and Dissociative Personality Disorder, which used to be called Multiple Personality Disorder.

No, I'm not a therapist nor do I have much knowledge beyond a few classes and what I read online. I could absolutely be wrong. But mine was clearly conscienceless about his actions and -- here's the kicker -- seemed to have little to no regard about dragging her child through the chaos and destruction my ex caused, despite claiming to love that child more than anything else. That child was always her anchor point, or so she claimed. However, the child got pulled into the disruptive life my ex created.

And when she seemed to become a different personality, it seemed to go beyond just the sort of "act" that someone with BPD might have when trying to appeal to the next favorite person in their life. Even my friends remarked how she looked and seemed an entirely different person when we met socially on two occasions a few months apart.

So, the notion of never really knowing the person with BPD, I think, is pretty accurate. With mine, I could see a bare minimum baseline of what might have been called a personality, but I can't really say I know for certain. She was an extraordinary liar and con artist, so who knows what was real or not. But, truth is, it doesn't matter. What matters is getting away from such a person.

Ha, don't know  how to edit a post, but the line should read "her actions," not "his actions." Not sure why she suddenly changed sex -- maybe it's a symptom of Dissociative Identity Disorder (as opposed to a typo).

[seekingtheway]

The slipperiness too! That's a perfect way to put it. It's not necessarily cagey or "shady" but the literal definition of the word. There is little to hold onto as far as their very "self", even when it comes to shifting interests. I think we depend on people to have a consistency of character and personality. She frequently told me how much she needed consistency and reassurance and constant affection....but I don't think she understands that consistency also comes in the form of personality and values and just plain interests. That slipperiness is sort of what I am referring to in the title of this thread. It goes beyond their abysmal treatment of us, and is inherent in their very makeup and its scary and very sad.

Yes, I do think we do find security in consistency in all things - but particularly in relationships. And it's probably true that she needed consistency from you, but she wasn't able to offer that same consistency back. Not everyone with BPD is the same, and so there will be different ways it presents, but having an unstable sense of self is listed in the DSM and therefore it tracks that many people will experience this slipperiness in relationship to someone with BPD.

Experiencing these wild vacillations of opinions, feelings, values, interests, wants etc... it can be very confusing to a brain that doesn't move in the same way, and trying to make sense of it and keep up with it can cause a kind of chaos in your own brain. It definitely did for me anyway, and it has taken me a long time to feel more connected with myself. I was trying to flow with him and understand his constant shifts and before I knew it, I'd lost my own footing... I was allowing things and doing things in this relationship I'd never seen myself do before, and that to me was the scary part.

So I think it can be helpful to process the experience by noting the things that you know for certain, which is how it made you feel. How certain behaviours affected you, what felt like the dealbreakers for you, what have you learned about yourself that you can take forwards?

[SnailShell]

Yes, findinggratitude! I relate to that feeling too.

I fancied that girl, and just wanted to go for a few coffees or something - I didn't mean to become her saviour, or whatever (I had no interest in that, unless it was very, very subconscious).

But the sharing of trauma stories, and the incredibly nice nice nice interactions, mixed with this vulnerability that led me to feel as though I carried the whole of her world on my shoulders...

It wasn't a nice pressure, at all, but there was enough that I fancied to keep me around; enough to sympathise with that I'd give her the benefit of the doubt; and enough neediness to kinda... sway me towards thinking

"Ahh, maybe I can keep going with this a bit longer - maybe she'll calm down a bit."

Then, when she started some devaluing behaviours, or else just randomly had a go at me about something, it'd knock me off guard and I'd realise that I was hooked in more than I wanted to be.

But yeah - I didn't *ask* to be some kind of saint, saving her from all her problems... I tolerated it too much, which is very much on me; but I didn't go in looking for it, as far as I know!
---

HoriatoX - I didn't experience quite the same thing as you, but it was similar - she'd suddenly develop a lisp sometimes which wasn't there at other times.

Sometimes her face would go all soft and serene, where other times it'd be hard and tense.

Sometimes she'd speak in a silly, sing-song kind of voice, other times she'd roll her eyes and be disdainful.

I don't think she had DID, but it did occasionally cross my mind...!

[findinggratitude]

 I agree, Horatiox that there were likely many issues at play. I tend to think that if there's one major disorder, there are others that are skirting around the edges too. My ex also had some OCD tendencies, self-admittedly, though I think her deep deep drive for control (which is nor doubt the result of a difficult childhood) played into so many elements of her ever-in-flux personality and traits.

And seekingtheway...this very much resonates with me:
Experiencing these wild vacillations of opinions, feelings, values, interests, wants etc... it can be very confusing to a brain that doesn't move in the same way, and trying to make sense of it and keep up with it can cause a kind of chaos in your own brain. It definitely did for me anyway, and it has taken me a long time to feel more connected with myself. I was trying to flow with him and understand his constant shifts and before I knew it, I'd lost my own footing... I was allowing things and doing things in this relationship I'd never seen myself do before, and that to me was the scary part.

I mentioned the roller-coaster and the whiplash previously, but trying to keep up with her wishes and hopes and dreams and goals, outside of the relationship, was equally challenging because she could not 'stay put". I wondered if she just had some kind of extreme ADHD at first. She would start school, drop out, start a different program, drop out, get a job, look for another job, rent a place, within months move again. I initially found this to be a certain "free-spiritedness" that was appealing (she was very good and cautious with money, which tricked me a little bit as far as her general level of, I guess you would call it irresponsibility or lack of ANY sort of life consistency. I felt like I could help her stay with certain things-especially school, so that she could go into the profession she claimed to want. But even that just kept changing around, and her life goals were, well, "slippery". Some of these included me, some did not...and she would make major life decisions and choices without talking to me about them at all, just make them suddenly and swiftly, almost like she had this burning urgency around them, which I think was just her constant search for happiness that was unattainable to her. I do remember thinking very early on, "Wow, this person is very unhappy." This definitely permeated her energy, even when she would be wildly excited about some BIG plan she cooked up, and sometimes followed through on. I think it's just a matter of luck at this point that she hasn't encountered major crises from her poor impulse control, and so often I would say to her, "Wherever you go, or whatever you do, there YOU are" trying to remind her that this seemed to be an "inside" job she was struggling with, and not something that could be done by suddenly moving and working on a farm one day, or a ski resort the next. It would appear from what I've written that she was very high energy, but she wasn't. She was anxious, shaky, rattly would be the word I would choose, but not really high energy or gregarious, in fact, quite the opposite. Prone to very outrageous flights-of-fancy it what it felt like, and I was supposed to go along for the ride and SUPPORT every one of them, some of which I definitely did not, but when I expressed this, she would accuse me of not being supportive or not "loving her for her." Yet at the same time she would demand guidance. It was a mess.


Ahh, maybe I can keep going with this a bit longer - maybe she'll calm down a bit."
Yes, snailshell! And she would actually TELL me if I did, this this this, she would calm down, relax, etc. But I don't think that is possible for them. They are really, well, in the true sense of the word, unstable. I could FEEL that instability a lot. Like just this sense of standing on thin ice, not always just in the emotional sense, but as far as what her next plot or plan would be. She could NOT just adhere to something or look at long-term goals in the interest of sating her immediate impulses. And I was definitely tricked because she was so "down" all the time, which can be interpreted as being serious, but she wasn't really that. She was just stuck in this density of her cluttered brain, it felt like, always complicating everything.

[findinggratitude]

Ah! and also this:
With mine, for instance, depending on the therapist (and how much I believe what my ex told me), she had anxiety, CPTSD, or BPD.  My gut says she definitely had BPD with elements of sociopathy and Dissociative Personality Disorder, which used to be called Multiple Personality Disorder.

I think the "shutting down" she often referenced, which I witnessed with the episodes of sleeping "benders" but also whenever anything didn't go her way...sort of a toddler-esque way of coping with any conflict or compromise (though she went on and on about compromise and communication and I remember thinking, "Hmmm, I've never before had to have so many discussions about this, in prior relationships we just kind of do those things naturally.)

But, and I just remembered this, she SHOWED me her medical records at one point from a hospital stay in which one of the docs noted "low empathy". I remember looking at her and saying, " He was so WRONG. You have an endless capacity for empathy!" And it appeared so at the time. But in hindsight, given how she ended things, she does not, not really. So, I definitely notice a whiff of sociopathy as well. She had the ability to "ghost" people who weren't that important to her very easily.

[findinggratitude]

Also, thank you, seekingtheway, for this:

So I think it can be helpful to process the experience by noting the things that you know for certain, which is how it made you feel. How certain behaviours affected you, what felt like the dealbreakers for you, what have you learned about yourself that you can take forwards?


I do feel a slight shift away from just HER (though now it's already a little less bafflement and a feeling of being shattered to one of, "Ooooo, I understand this a littttleee bit....thanks to the help of everyone here, to be honest). And I think with that emerging understanding (namely that I can't make her well...what I did was pretty irrelevant, really) and so now it's more what can I do for myself as far as taking inventory as far as what I want and don't. And on a broader level, what role I want to play in general in a partnership (because I was misguided in my efforts to "help" and perhaps "helping" isn't such a great role to have, especially when I could apply that to understanding and helping myself)

[seekingtheway]

These are all important realisations to have. I'm sure you'll go on to have more, and it will all keep unravelling in your mind until you get to the point where your thoughts will shift away from your ex and more into how you feel and what you need... and the future you want.

I like what you said here -

And on a broader level, what role I want to play in general in a partnership (because I was misguided in my efforts to "help" and perhaps "helping" isn't such a great role to have, especially when I could apply that to understanding and helping myself)

If I pumped the same amount of energy into caring for myself and understanding my own patterns instead of trying to figure out my ex's patterns, I would be in an entirely different place.

I think the rumination that follows these intense, chaotic relationships with painful endings is the hardest thing to deal with. And to a degree, rumination can help to sort some things out in your head and figure out what the heck just happened, where it/we went wrong, what we'd do differently the next time around. But beyond that, the rumination can keep us stuck in the past and in our trauma... I still struggle with this, but I'm far enough down the path that I can now be a bit intentional about doing something to shift whatever I'm stuck on in my head. Time helps, but sometimes, a little bit of intentional work around shifting your thoughts another way can be so helpful. Therapy has been so supportive in that process for me.

Just on your comments re empathy - I read an article that was about some research that had been done on BPD and that there is a very high level of shame present (which triggers behaviours rooted in anger and rage), but a low level of guilt/remorse (which is the feeling that generally prompts people to make a change to their behaviour)... they concluded that many people with BPD felt 'no-guilt shame'. And that an undeveloped part of the amygdala is partially responsible for that. This is just one study I read, and I'm sure there are other therories out there, but that was definitely my experience with my ex, lots of shame but no real remorse.

In a way, reading that research allowed me to just let go of some of my upset and confusion about how he didn't seem to care about treating me the way he did and how much pain I was clearly in - because I realise none of that is about me.... like... literally none of it.

[SinisterComplex]

I like what you said here -  If I pumped the same amount of energy into caring for myself and understanding my own patterns instead of trying to figure out my ex's patterns, I would be in an entirely different place.

This phrase rings so true for so many in general. The way you always have to look at things is that if you don't take care of YOU no one else will. Other people respond to you by how you treat yourself. In a sense try to learn to match other people's energy. I think the harder thing for most people to understand is that you can't make others like, love, or respect you if you do not like, love, or respect yourself.

The idea of people pleasing is a complete and utter waste of time. When you try to please everyone you effectively please no one!

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[Clearmind]

One is the fact that the person she believes I am is clearly someone absolutely terrible.

A common misconception about those with BPD is they cannot love. People with BPD often experience emotions more intensely than others, including love. They may feel love in a deep, passionate way, but their relationships can be impacted by the symptoms of the disorder, such as fear of abandonment, emotional instability, and difficulty managing intense feelings.
Splitting, or "black-and-white" thinking - can cause pwBPD to see us in extreme terms—either all good or all bad—with little room for nuance. This part about her is not about you. It happens whether you are in a relationship with her or not.
There were two people in your relationship.  For many of us who have been in a relationship with a pwBPD – and not everyone would choose a pwBPD as a partner – we can also use splitting or  "black-and-white" thinking especially in times of stress, conflict, or emotional upheaval – its our default coping mechanism.
It can be common for us to attribute challenges in our relationships solely to the effects of BPD without fully recognising how both partners in a relationship contribute to dynamics. This kind of reflection—acknowledging that everyone plays a role in interactions—is important for healthy relationships and personal growth.
You're not a bad person. Once we start to see both the good and the bad in our exes, that’s when we really start to heal.

she would not have just jumped ship without any real explanation besides "doubt" and "not being able to trust wholeheartedly.

Name 5 red flags you noticed in the first 3 months of your relationship that were concerning to you.

doubt and trust should be applied to me, ahem. Similarly, her inability to specify the "whys" of this doubt and mistrust speaks volumes; I believe it's just her internal inability to do so period.

Correct. However, in a healthy relationship, doubt and trust are balanced through open communication and mutual understanding. Trust is built when both partners can clearly express their feelings, concerns, and the reasons behind them.  When doubts arise, it’s important to address them with honesty and specificity, rather than letting them linger without explanation.
What would happen if we raised any doubts around trust with our pwBPD? Would this chat go well?
Going back to the question previously – how does this fit into the list of red flags?

That said, I am really sad to realize that the loyal, sweet, emotionally generous and intelligent person I believed her to be simply does not exist.

Yes and you are splitting.
She is all that you experienced.
Your ex is shifting from seeing you as all good ("loyal, sweet, emotionally generous, and intelligent") to all bad ("does not exist"). There is often an inability to reconcile the complexity of someone’s character—that a person can have both positive and negative traits.
In this case, you have moved from idealising the person to devaluing them, which is a hallmark of splitting – and honestly it’s a completely “normal” stage of grieving when we leave these types of relationships. Instead of recognising that they may have both strengths and flaws, you have shifted to believing that the positive qualities you once saw were entirely an illusion.
We are bargaining - wishing things were different, contemplating what you could have done to change the outcome. We reflect on past interactions (and even remunerate incessantly) and try to figure out if there were ways to avoid the split or if our behaviours could have been modified to save the relationship. We can’t – because we cannot change another person, we can only grow to protect ourselves for future relationships.

…wants something from me. Because as soon as she decided I had nothing to offer, that evaporated and what remained was cruelty and a weird obliteration of a relationship that had taken so much care and communication to build.

Yep! I completely feel you here. I encourage you to rethink this. What if we rephrased your quote here to?
"Once she decided I had nothing to offer, I realised the relationship had transformed. What had once been built on care and communication was overshadowed by cruelty, and I understood that I deserve to invest my energy in connections that value me."
How does this rephrasing make you feel?
You have loads to offer you were just offering yourself to a person who couldn’t give that back and you kept trying likely past its expiry date.  You can’t keep trying to fix something that was never yours to begin with.

I would almost prefer the cruel one to be real, because I could attach to that and "fall out of love" more easily. But instead, it's almost like I fell in love with no-one. And the fact she disappeared entirely makes it feel that way even that more.

I completely understand why you feel that way. It’s so much harder to let go when the person you fell in love with seems to have vanished, leaving you with a sense of emptiness. It’s natural to wish for something tangible to hold onto, even if it's the cruelty. Your feelings are valid, and it’s okay to grieve the loss of that connection. Remember, healing takes time, and you deserve to find peace and clarity as you navigate these emotions.

You will find the right person for you – she wasn’t it xx

In time you will begin to ask yourself questions like:

What did I learn about myself from this relationship?
How can I better recognise my worth in future relationships?
What patterns do I want to avoid repeating in the future?
How can I ensure my needs are met in a healthy way?
What boundaries do I need to establish to protect myself emotionally?
What qualities do I truly value in a partner?
How can I heal and move forward from this experience?
In what ways can I practice self-care and self-compassion?
What support systems do I have that I can lean on during this time?
How can I use this experience to grow and strengthen my resilience?

[findinggratitude]

Cleamind:

I LOVE what you did there in your last message, and again, am grateful for your lengthy feedback.

I literally catch myself "splitting" her! And I would say in the past only few days I have been able to see that as a defense mechanism of sorts, and come back to a more integrated acknowledgement of who she was and is. I do recognize that I am speaking about a person here, first, and a disorder, second. The disorder just happens to impact me, and her interpersonal relationships in general. I am trying to remind myself of that and not make her out to be a monster (even though, ooooo it really gets under my skin that she thinks that way of me).

5 red flags:
1) no boundaries. none. We were living in separate areas and initially developed a relationship online. She came to visit me WITHOUT warning and that scared me. She just showed up.
2) severe anxiety that kept her from functioning at times, and extreme indecisiveness combined with snap decisions
3)no friends (she admitted this, but said it was because she was highly introverted. Literally would not speak to anyone for days on end if she wasn't working)
4)mirroring me to the point it felt like a 'soul abduction"...this included copying much of my language choices and ideals. I couldn't tell what she liked or believed before she met me.
5)this is specific, but her sister will have nothing to do with her. And her father has limited contact. But I could never get a reason for it.

Remind me why I am doing this exercise ;). I have so many more, but these were significant.

Once she decided I had nothing to offer, I realised the relationship had transformed. What had once been built on care and communication was overshadowed by cruelty, and I understood that I deserve to invest my energy in connections that value me."

This is so helpful. I'm going to try to apply this "approach" to many of my thoughts. I am finding myself "going in that direction" more and more this week especially (exactly two months out). it's becoming more of an integrated thinking process in which I am in the mix in there somewhere, rather than just her and what she did to me...because no one really DID anything to anyone...I mean, technically, yes...but semantics aside....looking at patterns and where I added to this mess. Because that's really what it was in the end....just a big emotional disaster.

[seekingtheway]

Being able to have an integrated view of your ex and the situation is the way you'll find the parts that you need to heal, and the way you'll eventually find peace. Although I think we sometimes use anger, blame and splitting as a way to distance ourselves from something damaging, so it can serve a purpose for a short time.

But ultimately, I think a lot of the pain that lies beneath our upset about this behaviour or that behaviour, is that we don't feel seen, accepted or valued for who we really are - this is the wound that we take from these relationships and this (for me at least) is what I need to heal. We all want to be seen deeply by those who love us, and appreciated for our good parts, and so it really is devastating when we are handed the opposite of that.

I really did love my ex for who he was, warts and all... I still do in many ways. But I'm not sure that he loved me for all of my warts. When he would talk about what he loved about me, he would often refer to things that I did that made him feel good - like the way I comforted him, or the way I looked at him.. whereas these are not the best or even nearly the best parts of my personality. I don't think he saw or loved those parts. Which means he's not my guy.

[SnailShell]

These are helpful posts!

Yes - my own take on the ‘splitting’ thing, is that where it may be happening (which is a helpful thing to point out), I do think it’s legitimate to feel grief, anger, sadness, disorientation etc for a time.

A BPD relationship can be absolutely wild, and most of us (I’d guess) have only had one - so there’s no real frame of reference for it either.

In those circumstances, I think it’s natural to feel an overwhelming sense of anger and pain, and to want to blame someone who never seems to take any blame.

To remain mindful of the injustice in a situation where the other person just won’t see it.

Where there’s gaslighting and manipulation, it can feel empowering - for a time - to say

“No dammit, that wasn’t okay - and they were vile to do that to me.”

BUT - I agree that to stay in that place for too long is a bad sign, and isn’t moving towards healing.

Healing people will start to resolve that ‘spilt’, and integrate the bad and the good without such emotional pain and upset.

There’ll also - I think - be room in that for the mystery of our BPD exes - the sense of

“well, I just don’t understand what the hell even happened there…”

which will no longer feel like such a big deal, and will start to feel more philosophical - a peace with not knowing or understanding everything.

I’m not arguing with anyone here by the way - just giving my take.

I may be wrong!

[SnailShell]

I suppose I’m just saying it because I sense that the pressure to not split could put pressure onto people who are still early in a process - like asking someone to run a marathon when they’ve just started training.

The end goal is a great thing to have in mind, but you get there in increments (I think), and it’s good to have a certain realism about that, imo.

[findinggratitude]

I think, as snailshell just wrote, that the injustice element is the biggest challenge, for sure! And with that comes this drive for the pwbpd to take on some sort of blame, or if not that, even a hint of acknowledgement that they were in a relationship with us at all and that we mattered to them, rather than that they have slipped away in the cover of the night (which is how it feels)...like they escaped something? Does that make sense? It really comes down not to the departure itself (relationships end, and acceptance of that for me, historically, has been, if not easy, at least doable, and with some mutual understanding).

There’ll also - I think - be room in that for the mystery of our BPD exes - the sense of

“well, I just don’t understand what the hell even happened there…”

I have moments where this mystery is almost met with a wry, slight humor to it (very recently only) rather than that void and horror. I find myself having very brief moments of this, like "Good grief, what the HECK happened here?" but without the immediate pain following that thought.

If she were to just reach out and say, 'What I did was terrible" I feel like I would leap forward in recovering from this exponentially. And, somehow let me know that she recognizes that I am not awful. I feel as if she disappeared in what feels like an escape from me as someone who she decided was awful for her "I need to go NC because you influence me too much"...when the opposite was true! But see, I'm heading back into a sort of mental clutter again!

[findinggratitude]

So basically, this:

But ultimately, I think a lot of the pain that lies beneath our upset about this behaviour or that behaviour, is that we don't feel seen, accepted or valued for who we really are - this is the wound that we take from these relationships and this (for me at least) is what I need to heal. We all want to be seen deeply by those who love us, and appreciated for our good parts, and so it really is devastating when we are handed the opposite of that.

And I think its compounded by the fact we felt EXTRA "seen" so to speak, during the initial months or however long, and my ex used to actually say this , "I see you", "I've got you," which was new to me. Also an interesting peek into her psyche though. She was very adept at speaking in psychological terms like that, not that those are very complex, but she spoke the language of someone who had been in therapy for a long time (which she had since the age of 9) and so was able to use the terms and mention the "approaches" one might apply in a relationship. I often felt like I was in therapy with her all the time, though, which was exhausting, and realized that much of this was just attempts to get me to yield to her (vague but driving) needs. Nevertheless, I do believe that the fact my efforts and what felt like true love for her have been totally disregarded (but more than that, deemed NOT TRUE) is the biggest challenge.

[SnailShell]

Yeah, I hear you on all of that findinggratitude!

I hear the humour in it - I've felt a similar way.

It's not a funny situation, but... it is KIND of funny somewhere in there.

I've sometimes thought "Sh** me... what was that???"

Or "Jeez... I'm really REALLY glad we didn't marry..."

And in those moments, it does feel a little but funny, I suppose.
A bit of a relief, maybe.

I hear you about being seen too - my ex would also say that to me; although I did feel as though I was having to dig through myself for traumas to satisfy her with... and it felt a bit 'icky' somehow... because I think I was aware that - so early in the relationship - it couldn't possibly be genuine or even wholly altruistic on her part (OR on mine, I suppose)...

As for an apology helping with the healing... I don't know.
Maybe!

Do you think it might do just the opposite though?

I'm not sure myself... but I think... coming to a place of peace with the fact that my ex is unwell and has a whole different way of seeing the world, kind of gives me a sense that... it wasn't just me - and that's helpful for closure.

If she apologised, maybe I'd start to pull at that thread of trying to get back on some common ground again, and that may not be helpful.

Having said that, I suppose if she messaged in two years to say

"Hey - I don't want a relationship, I just want to say that after healing a bit, I've now realised 'x, y and z'"

In that very hypothetical scenario, I feel we could be on distant, good terms - but even that might be totally the wrong premise for this situation.

So yeah - as you say - probably better not to get caught up in the mental clutter of all of that.

We may not ever fully realise what those people's brains are really like - what their thoughts are, their ways of perceiving the world etc... it won't make sense, and an acceptance of that is probably healthy, in the end...

[SnailShell]

These are helpful posts!

Yes - my own take on the ‘splitting’ thing, is that where it may be happening (which is a helpful thing to point out), I do think it’s legitimate to feel grief, anger, sadness, disorientation etc for a time.

Just coming back to this post - I do see wisdom in the post that I was replying to about splitting -

Because when I was in my ex's home city, I started to think of her (and feel) as though she was all good - and I struggled to see or remember the bad.

So maybe there is something in being cautious to guard against that!