How much do their friends and family know?

[SnailShell]

On the subject of persona from another thread, how much do you think their friends and family know about their bad behaviour?

My ex once told me "I don't give a sh** what you think" after I complemented her.

It happened in front of her friends and one of them looked sorta shocked.

They have church friends, one or two close friends and family...

I'm not sure how close the picture is REALLY, and how much is just the impression she gave.

Sometimes I think those friends and family must think a heck load of bad things about me... but they've also met me.

And they know her.

I know she's had tensions with one sister (all blamed on the sister), but they also seemed friendly enough (the sister would call her, and my ex traveled to America to see them).

I can't work out how they could treat me so badly with no one else knowing what they're like.

But DOES no one else know, or do lots of people secretly feel that she's not all she seems to be?

Did she paint a false picture of close friends and good times?

I know she cut her parents off for a few years - so she said - so it can't have all been rosey, surely...?

[zachira]

It depends on what level of emotional maturity the person has and how much contact they have with the family to get that there is abuse going on. There were wonderful mothers of other children who certainly got it that my mother lacked mothering skills and these mothers went out of their way to be especially kind to me. It also depends on how much family members and outsiders value family loyalty to the point of being enablers of the abuses.

[Notwendy]

Since I posted about the persona, I will share my experience. For reference, the pwBPD is my elderly mother.

BPD affects the most intimate relationships the most, and it is possible that only the romantic partner and immediate family see them enough to realize that the persona they know is different with these people. They may only see the persona.

However, disordered family dynamics don't just impact the disordered person. Family members may also be in denial about the pwBPD's behavior and also be enablers.

Karpman triangle dynamics are common in these families and family members who are rescuers may align with the pwBPD "against" other members.

Growing up in my family, we were not allowed to talk about my mother's behaviors. My father experienced probably the worst of them but he also was the first to step up and defend her. We all had to pretend she is "normal".

It is common for BPD mother to paint other family members black to others and have them align with her. What she says may not be true but they have no reason to not believe her.

Most people outside the family didn't have a clue. There may have been moments where she lapsed, like you described but it wasn't enough to change their perspective.

Where it became more obvious was in her elder years where people who are her caregivers became closer to her and so, the closer the relationship, the more evident the BPD behaviors are.

My best assessment of your situation is that her parents and sister are aware of her behaviors. They may not be aware that it is BPD. The fact that she has cut off her parents is evidence that there are issues between them. She may also have cut them off to make sure that people in her circle don't know them, to maintain the persona. My BPD mother has cut me off from contact with extended family and friends at time.

If friends know both of you, they may just want to stay neutral and not take sides. They may hear what she says about you but may or may not believe it. They may just not want to get involved in the conflict.

[jaded7]

Wendy, great reply above. You always write such thoughtful responses, thank you for contributing to this forum so well.

I'll address the OP question.

In my case, I found out after the breakup

(which was, of course, harsh and filled with name calling and putdowns, done over the phone after she
ghosted me and left town for Christmas without saying a word, then was mad at me for not coming to an eye appointment she had mentioned casually months before but never told me the date/time/location and had not responded for 3 weeks to my text).

that her sister, who was close childhood friends with one of the clients of my business, had told that client that "she was worried about Jaded dating ________ because she's not a good person". Think about that, her own sister told my good client, who I saw a few time a week, that she was worried about me and what her sister might do to me.  This client never told me that while we were together, I only learned about it after we ended.

This may be related to the fact that my ex had a previous boyfriend who removed himself from the world after a 'fight' with my ex, then left a note saying that it was her fault. I'm not saying that was a good thing to do, but I do know that what she called our 'fights' were not fights at all in the normal sense, they were occasioned by her attacking me out of nowhere for almost anything- my food I ate, my clothing, my business skills, my business, my friends, my interests....on and on. And I'd be confused, wondering where this came from. Or, she would state something I said or did that was untrue, and I would try to correct it....and off we went. So I felt for the guy, I know how cruel and mean she can be, cutting right to your most vulnerable parts.

The last day I saw my ex was right before she ditched me for Christmas and left town, we were at show where her son was performing. Her Mom and Dad were there (and her sister) and during a break her Mom asked me when I was coming up for Christmas (I had spent the last Christmas and Thanksgiving with them) and I said I don't know, she hadn't invited me. Her Mom said, oh just come up Wednesday, we can't wait to have you. I told her that I can't do that, but thank you, she's the boss. Her Mom rolled her eyes and shook her head.

After the show, we were counting out the number of people to go to dinner and it was one less than our group. I had a business event to attend that night and couldn't go but no one else but my ex knew that apparently, and her Mom did a little math in her head. She then looked over at me, whispered to me from several feet away, with a concerned look on her face, 'are you not coming to dinner?". She didn't want her daughter to see her saying that to me. That told me a lot. Then her Dad a minute later just asked the same question out loud and everyone heard it, and I just said that I had an event at my business that night. The last time we talked my ex characterized that as "I saw you bullshi**ing my Dad!!" My ex had helped me pick the night for that event at my business!

So, yes, I think that her family knows....which does give me relief sometimes that I'm not the horrible one.

[SnailShell]

Thanks for sharing these guys!

Yeah... my relationship happened in a city a few hundred miles away from my home city.

And I feel I didn't really know her network.

I only ever saw her life through the lens that she presented to me - and since she was often quite... 'hazy'... on what was true and what wasn't; I have no idea of what was really going on for her.

Her instagram photos are all smiles etc... but many of our relationship photos were too - and either side of the smiling, we were sitting there looking pretty straight-faced, a lot of the time.

All I know, is that one person who vaguely knew her told me that in her previous friendship group, people knew that she struggled with her mental health; and someone else I spoke to in very vague terms (without delving deeply into the way she treated me etc) said "Nothing you've said is that surprising, based on what I know about her..." but they didn't expand on it.

It would feel liberating to hear someone say "Oh man, yeah - we all know she's kind of crazy..."

And it would feel kind of like there's some justice too.

But I guess that's looking for things which won't happen, and it'd be good to be able to move forward without that!

[findinggratitude]

My ex has an estranged relationship with her sister since she was a teenager. The sister has not seen or spoken her since the sister went away to college at 18, and my ex was 15.

Very occasionally my ex will text back and forth with her sister in a very very light way (like joking memes), and, in her sad, waif ways will ask if the sister wants to talk on the phone, but the sister will not. It's a fasincating dynamic; there's no arguing or mention of why the sister flatly refuses to have anything to do with her, and my ex claims she doesn't really know why...just that she "misses her sister." There's that haziness and mystery around it for sure, and a similar "begging" quality my ex possessed at the beginning with me. I have often wanted to reach out to the sister just for some clarity or answers, but I haven't and wont. My ex also claims this "just happened"....like it's a drift apart and the sister isn't actively doing this, unless she's feeling more victimy.

What strikes me most about it is the fact there is NO mention, ever, of the weirdness of this. It's just sort of her inappropriate, at times, attempts to get the sister to call when it's clear she won't.

She has a very enmeshed relationship with her mother in that they text constantly throughout the day. Constantly. And talk all the time. She's very needy when it comes to her mother and her mother is definitely her "best" friend as far as her mother's willingess to listen to her when she has long episodes of anxiety and depression. Yet, the mother also keeps her distance in that there's no communication about "real" things. Often a lot of (silly) banter and word play, but nothing of depth. I get the sense her mom wants to "keep tabs" on her that she's okay, but doesn't want to ask much because she doesn't want to "open any cans of worms".

Her Dad is a mystery. She claims he was abusive, yet sometimes she has a friendly-ish relationship with him.

Again, all of these relationships are enshrouded in mystery, and confusing. She has few friends. Claims this is because she's so introverted, but I'm not sure. She really doesn't have any friends in the real sense, and her "best friend" lives hours away and they go months without even texting, and years without seeing each other. She quickly declared me her "best friend" when we started communicating online (after a few weeks) and also would look to me as a "mentor" as far as "showing her" what family relationships are like. I have a solid relationship with my parents and siblings, and she was always shocked not so much by the amount of communication we have (because she is constantly in contact with her mother) but by the level of familiarity and sharing that goes on. And that we actually spend time together. Even with her mother, they only see each other less than once a year.

I, too, wonder what they know. I know they know she has psych problems, and has been in and out of the hospital at times, but not sure how MUCH they know.

[findinggratitude]

I can't work out how they could treat me so badly with no one else knowing what they're like.

I think people know on some level. I also think it's something within us to want that to be the case so that we're validated, still, as the "good guy"....I know this is an ongoing theme for me. In other words, I think knowing we have been likely smeared (if even lightly) makes us feel even worse when we know the truth and tried very earnestly to support them.

[Notwendy]

Thanks Jaded7-

Findingratidue makes a good point- it is difficult to be framed as the "bad guy". I think we want to be seen as good, and with good intentions. Karpman triangle dynamics help put this in perspective. If someone with BPD is in victim perspective, then other people are either rescuer or persecutor. That doesn't mean their perspective is true, but we can't change someone else's thinking.

Families also have their own adaptive behavior. Family members may "know" but the family culture may be denial or want to protect their BPD family member. Also when this is a part of the family, it becomes a "normal" to that family. In some families, to say anything is considered a betrayal of the family.

It does feel validating to hear that someone else has seen the behavior too, but I think people can have their own boundaries regardless. A boundary includes knowing what is you and what isn't. If someone claims something about you that isn't true- that doesn't make it true. Being a good person means following your own ethical code. You know who you are.

[SnailShell]

Thanks Jaded7-

Findingratidue makes a good point- it is difficult to be framed as the "bad guy". I think we want to be seen as good, and with good intentions. Karpman triangle dynamics help put this in perspective. If someone with BPD is in victim perspective, then other people are either rescuer or persecutor. That doesn't mean their perspective is true, but we can't change someone else's thinking.

Families also have their own adaptive behavior. Family members may "know" but the family culture may be denial or want to protect their BPD family member. Also when this is a part of the family, it becomes a "normal" to that family. In some families, to say anything is considered a betrayal of the family.

It does feel validating to hear that someone else has seen the behavior too, but I think people can have their own boundaries regardless. A boundary includes knowing what is you and what isn't. If someone claims something about you that isn't true- that doesn't make it true. Being a good person means following your own ethical code. You know who you are.

This, this and exactly this!

"The BPD is the victim, so everyone else must either by the rescuer or the persecutor".

Yes.

In the early stages of my relationship, I felt like an absolute hero - I really did.

And I wasn't exactly comfortable with it - and I don't think I encouraged it consciously.

But I guess it also did feel good to have a pretty girl cuddling up to me, telling me how amazing I was - and how good I made her feel.

It's satisfying isn't it?
To know that you've helped someone to feel good.

Who doesn't want that?
It's why people volunteer at puppy shelters etc (and y'know - we SHOULD feel good when we help other people - it's right, I think).

Buuuut... I was also uneasy about everyone else being made into some kind of villain, and I sensed that I'd be a villain one day too.

My friend once said to me
"You might have to let them hate you so you can both move on.", and I sensed he was right.

---

BUT -

How galling and difficult to randomly (and I do mean pretty randomly) be accused of stalking and harassment by some random guy I'd never met before.

What an absolute kick in the gut to be the sudden perpetrator.

And to know that he felt like the hero - how I used to feel (not that I'd ever threaten anyone - that's kind of unhinged).

And I believed it.

I looked at younger photos of myself around that time and thought

"I'm the kind of guy that makes r*pe victims feel terrified."

It honestly tortured me - I really struggled to live with myself.

Now, when I look back... she constantly messaged me after breaking up with me. I replied.

She kept me on the hook - I was trying to understand how to navigate things so that neither of us got hurt.

She suddenly got a new boyfriend, didn't tell me, and it was just really bad luck that I happened to see them coming around the corner when I did.

I know I wasn't stalking her - I didn't even want to see her; I'd decided to move on.

I know I wasn't harassing her - I only messaged her to let her know that I was cutting contact.

I know it's not a crime to be upset (I mean upset - not angry, particularly) when you see your recent ex with another guy; especially when it's a BPD ex who has been very confusing.

I know it hurt that she communicated so coldly and unkindly with me after I let her know that I'd seen them.

I was a normal human, acting emotionally - and yeah, it was a bit intense; but that doesn't make me a nasty, stalking, horrible, harassing, abuser of women.

The guy who called me even told me: "You're risking her life!!"

So I have no idea what she told him, but - no. Sorry. Not true.

Jeez... that was a really, really hard time in my life.

I'm glad it's over, and I'm glad to be moving on!

[Notwendy]

It's not just with you. My own BPD mother has done this with me- said things to others about me that aren't true. It's ranged from being embarrasing to actually harming relationships.

Sometimes others don't know. Since BPD behaviors are more with the closest relationships, more casual friends may not know.

An aquaintance I knew was abusive and a narcisist in his romantic relationships. I would not have known this except that he dated a friend of mine and she told me why they broke up. With me, at a professional and aquaintance level- I didn't see any of it. I think some higher functioning people with PD's may not be seen as such by friends. Family would likely see it.

[findinggratitude]

What an absolute kick in the gut to be the sudden perpetrator.

This. And it's a double-edged sword, because at one point you were the savior. And the shift is not something we are aware of until they reveal it, so it feels like, well the whole white to black analogy. And then comes the questioning of yourself, as in, "where did I go wrong so that this happened?". That's something I was stuck in for the first couple months post breakup, and I find it much easier recently to just kind of throw my arms up and say, " I didn't go wrong! This is just something out of both of our control that has very little to do with either of us as people." There really are three "personalities" in the relationships, I believe. Us, the person we knew, and the BPD. They always know the BPD is there, it's been a part of them for their whole lives. But we didn't. So, in the aftermath trying to work in that third component feels nearly impossible, and it's like some sort of bleak ghost haunting everything. And we sort of hope other people saw this ghost or felt it, and perhaps the families do, but then again, they have had it lurking around for the entire life of the person with BPD too, so it's much more integrated into their dynamic in a way we weren't aware of.

As far as casual friends, colleagues....I suspect they know "something" but can't place a finger on it. I knew from my very first interaction with my ex that something was "off" but I chalked it up to a sort of innocence on her part, or a naivete....it had an ethereal quality (still vaguely ghostlike though, if you think about it, but maybe more like a little fairy than a dark ghost)....but there was an "other" component in the mix from the very beginning which I believe was the BPD, and which I also believe most people kind of naturally shy away from. This would explain her lack of friends and close connections, and her tendency to worship people who she didn't actually know, but sort of fantasized that she did (musicians, certain celebrities). Those were her primary relationships, and all the other ones often became fraught with, if not conflict, than people being irritated or impatient with her. She was not well-liked, but that made me "feel" for her all the more because it felt to me like she just did not now how to "be in this world" and I took it upon myself to "show" her. That's a huge flaw within myself for certain that I recognize now, but also something she cultivated until suddenly she hated that dynamic (unbeknownst to me, but that's absolutely the root of our breakup, I suspect). It was very much a dynamic of "tell me how to be and live" which flipped to "you can't tell me how to be and live. I want to be free!" but I was never informed of this shift! I would have happily been less of a "mentor"....this made me uncomfortable from the get-go and was another thing that felt "off"...but then it morphed into feeling like a responsibility. It's all still quite confusing for sure.

[HoratioX]

My observation is they know.

An easy way to test this is to look at the social media of their friends and family. How much interaction is there? For instance, if one posts a pic, are they likes from the person with BPD?

No, not all friends and families interact closely, and not everyone follows others on social media.  But you might start to see obvious patterns, like some of the same friends or family are routinely posting or liking while the person with BPD is not, is not receiving the same attention, or both.

That suggests a rocky relationship, and if so, would be consistent with a lot of people with BPD -- that is, they are challenged to maintain close an long-term relationships.

[Under The Bridge]

I think most - if not all - of a BPD's family and friends know there's something 'off', even if they never see the BPD in it's full fury.

I know that while some BPD keep the abuse for when they're just with their partner and can appear normal to anyone else, I don't think they can ever totally shut it off and friends and family will know they have a problem, even if they just put it down to being 'a bit moody'. I thought my ex just had 'moods' when I first went out with her but as I became the main one in her life I saw the full effects of her condition.

Sometimes she did act up in public as well as in private and people certainly noticed. I had a lot of people she knew and worked with make comment - like they were warning me but without doing it directly or being disloyal to a friend. Same with bar staff in the pub we met in who knew her before we became a couple.  All tiny red flags at the time which of course you don't notice as you're in the idealisation stage.

I recall a conversation with her mother one time and I came away thinking 'She never expressed it directly but was she warning me not to expect good treatment from her daughter?' Looking back later, I can now see that's exactly what she was doing. Her stepfather was the same, saying I'd 'have my hands full' if I was going out with her.  All indications that they knew there was something wrong with her.

So yes, I think family and friends are well aware of what's going on.

[Notwendy]

Families have their own dynamics and if there's a disordered person, the other family members can take on certain behaviors to keep the family in balance.

In my FOO and my mother's family, it's as if they "know" but they choose to suspend their own sense of reality about her. Also there's the sense of protecting her and keeping her disorder secret. I don't think it's lying on their part. It's almost like they are compartmentalizing it.

Keeping my BPD mother's BPD behaviors a secret has been the unspoken family rule. We were not allowed to say anything about her. If we did, we were punished, and it's a fearful thing to talk about.

People may be aware but whether or not they will talk about it or admit it can vary.