How much do their friends and family know?

[SnailShell]

On the subject of persona from another thread, how much do you think their friends and family know about their bad behaviour?

My ex once told me "I don't give a sh** what you think" after I complemented her.

It happened in front of her friends and one of them looked sorta shocked.

They have church friends, one or two close friends and family...

I'm not sure how close the picture is REALLY, and how much is just the impression she gave.

Sometimes I think those friends and family must think a heck load of bad things about me... but they've also met me.

And they know her.

I know she's had tensions with one sister (all blamed on the sister), but they also seemed friendly enough (the sister would call her, and my ex traveled to America to see them).

I can't work out how they could treat me so badly with no one else knowing what they're like.

But DOES no one else know, or do lots of people secretly feel that she's not all she seems to be?

Did she paint a false picture of close friends and good times?

I know she cut her parents off for a few years - so she said - so it can't have all been rosey, surely...?

[zachira]

It depends on what level of emotional maturity the person has and how much contact they have with the family to get that there is abuse going on. There were wonderful mothers of other children who certainly got it that my mother lacked mothering skills and these mothers went out of their way to be especially kind to me. It also depends on how much family members and outsiders value family loyalty to the point of being enablers of the abuses.

[Notwendy]

Since I posted about the persona, I will share my experience. For reference, the pwBPD is my elderly mother.

BPD affects the most intimate relationships the most, and it is possible that only the romantic partner and immediate family see them enough to realize that the persona they know is different with these people. They may only see the persona.

However, disordered family dynamics don't just impact the disordered person. Family members may also be in denial about the pwBPD's behavior and also be enablers.

Karpman triangle dynamics are common in these families and family members who are rescuers may align with the pwBPD "against" other members.

Growing up in my family, we were not allowed to talk about my mother's behaviors. My father experienced probably the worst of them but he also was the first to step up and defend her. We all had to pretend she is "normal".

It is common for BPD mother to paint other family members black to others and have them align with her. What she says may not be true but they have no reason to not believe her.

Most people outside the family didn't have a clue. There may have been moments where she lapsed, like you described but it wasn't enough to change their perspective.

Where it became more obvious was in her elder years where people who are her caregivers became closer to her and so, the closer the relationship, the more evident the BPD behaviors are.

My best assessment of your situation is that her parents and sister are aware of her behaviors. They may not be aware that it is BPD. The fact that she has cut off her parents is evidence that there are issues between them. She may also have cut them off to make sure that people in her circle don't know them, to maintain the persona. My BPD mother has cut me off from contact with extended family and friends at time.

If friends know both of you, they may just want to stay neutral and not take sides. They may hear what she says about you but may or may not believe it. They may just not want to get involved in the conflict.

[jaded7]

Wendy, great reply above. You always write such thoughtful responses, thank you for contributing to this forum so well.

I'll address the OP question.

In my case, I found out after the breakup

(which was, of course, harsh and filled with name calling and putdowns, done over the phone after she
ghosted me and left town for Christmas without saying a word, then was mad at me for not coming to an eye appointment she had mentioned casually months before but never told me the date/time/location and had not responded for 3 weeks to my text).

that her sister, who was close childhood friends with one of the clients of my business, had told that client that "she was worried about Jaded dating ________ because she's not a good person". Think about that, her own sister told my good client, who I saw a few time a week, that she was worried about me and what her sister might do to me.  This client never told me that while we were together, I only learned about it after we ended.

This may be related to the fact that my ex had a previous boyfriend who removed himself from the world after a 'fight' with my ex, then left a note saying that it was her fault. I'm not saying that was a good thing to do, but I do know that what she called our 'fights' were not fights at all in the normal sense, they were occasioned by her attacking me out of nowhere for almost anything- my food I ate, my clothing, my business skills, my business, my friends, my interests....on and on. And I'd be confused, wondering where this came from. Or, she would state something I said or did that was untrue, and I would try to correct it....and off we went. So I felt for the guy, I know how cruel and mean she can be, cutting right to your most vulnerable parts.

The last day I saw my ex was right before she ditched me for Christmas and left town, we were at show where her son was performing. Her Mom and Dad were there (and her sister) and during a break her Mom asked me when I was coming up for Christmas (I had spent the last Christmas and Thanksgiving with them) and I said I don't know, she hadn't invited me. Her Mom said, oh just come up Wednesday, we can't wait to have you. I told her that I can't do that, but thank you, she's the boss. Her Mom rolled her eyes and shook her head.

After the show, we were counting out the number of people to go to dinner and it was one less than our group. I had a business event to attend that night and couldn't go but no one else but my ex knew that apparently, and her Mom did a little math in her head. She then looked over at me, whispered to me from several feet away, with a concerned look on her face, 'are you not coming to dinner?". She didn't want her daughter to see her saying that to me. That told me a lot. Then her Dad a minute later just asked the same question out loud and everyone heard it, and I just said that I had an event at my business that night. The last time we talked my ex characterized that as "I saw you bullshi**ing my Dad!!" My ex had helped me pick the night for that event at my business!

So, yes, I think that her family knows....which does give me relief sometimes that I'm not the horrible one.

[SnailShell]

Thanks for sharing these guys!

Yeah... my relationship happened in a city a few hundred miles away from my home city.

And I feel I didn't really know her network.

I only ever saw her life through the lens that she presented to me - and since she was often quite... 'hazy'... on what was true and what wasn't; I have no idea of what was really going on for her.

Her instagram photos are all smiles etc... but many of our relationship photos were too - and either side of the smiling, we were sitting there looking pretty straight-faced, a lot of the time.

All I know, is that one person who vaguely knew her told me that in her previous friendship group, people knew that she struggled with her mental health; and someone else I spoke to in very vague terms (without delving deeply into the way she treated me etc) said "Nothing you've said is that surprising, based on what I know about her..." but they didn't expand on it.

It would feel liberating to hear someone say "Oh man, yeah - we all know she's kind of crazy..."

And it would feel kind of like there's some justice too.

But I guess that's looking for things which won't happen, and it'd be good to be able to move forward without that!

[findinggratitude]

My ex has an estranged relationship with her sister since she was a teenager. The sister has not seen or spoken her since the sister went away to college at 18, and my ex was 15.

Very occasionally my ex will text back and forth with her sister in a very very light way (like joking memes), and, in her sad, waif ways will ask if the sister wants to talk on the phone, but the sister will not. It's a fasincating dynamic; there's no arguing or mention of why the sister flatly refuses to have anything to do with her, and my ex claims she doesn't really know why...just that she "misses her sister." There's that haziness and mystery around it for sure, and a similar "begging" quality my ex possessed at the beginning with me. I have often wanted to reach out to the sister just for some clarity or answers, but I haven't and wont. My ex also claims this "just happened"....like it's a drift apart and the sister isn't actively doing this, unless she's feeling more victimy.

What strikes me most about it is the fact there is NO mention, ever, of the weirdness of this. It's just sort of her inappropriate, at times, attempts to get the sister to call when it's clear she won't.

She has a very enmeshed relationship with her mother in that they text constantly throughout the day. Constantly. And talk all the time. She's very needy when it comes to her mother and her mother is definitely her "best" friend as far as her mother's willingess to listen to her when she has long episodes of anxiety and depression. Yet, the mother also keeps her distance in that there's no communication about "real" things. Often a lot of (silly) banter and word play, but nothing of depth. I get the sense her mom wants to "keep tabs" on her that she's okay, but doesn't want to ask much because she doesn't want to "open any cans of worms".

Her Dad is a mystery. She claims he was abusive, yet sometimes she has a friendly-ish relationship with him.

Again, all of these relationships are enshrouded in mystery, and confusing. She has few friends. Claims this is because she's so introverted, but I'm not sure. She really doesn't have any friends in the real sense, and her "best friend" lives hours away and they go months without even texting, and years without seeing each other. She quickly declared me her "best friend" when we started communicating online (after a few weeks) and also would look to me as a "mentor" as far as "showing her" what family relationships are like. I have a solid relationship with my parents and siblings, and she was always shocked not so much by the amount of communication we have (because she is constantly in contact with her mother) but by the level of familiarity and sharing that goes on. And that we actually spend time together. Even with her mother, they only see each other less than once a year.

I, too, wonder what they know. I know they know she has psych problems, and has been in and out of the hospital at times, but not sure how MUCH they know.

[findinggratitude]

I can't work out how they could treat me so badly with no one else knowing what they're like.

I think people know on some level. I also think it's something within us to want that to be the case so that we're validated, still, as the "good guy"....I know this is an ongoing theme for me. In other words, I think knowing we have been likely smeared (if even lightly) makes us feel even worse when we know the truth and tried very earnestly to support them.

[Notwendy]

Thanks Jaded7-

Findingratidue makes a good point- it is difficult to be framed as the "bad guy". I think we want to be seen as good, and with good intentions. Karpman triangle dynamics help put this in perspective. If someone with BPD is in victim perspective, then other people are either rescuer or persecutor. That doesn't mean their perspective is true, but we can't change someone else's thinking.

Families also have their own adaptive behavior. Family members may "know" but the family culture may be denial or want to protect their BPD family member. Also when this is a part of the family, it becomes a "normal" to that family. In some families, to say anything is considered a betrayal of the family.

It does feel validating to hear that someone else has seen the behavior too, but I think people can have their own boundaries regardless. A boundary includes knowing what is you and what isn't. If someone claims something about you that isn't true- that doesn't make it true. Being a good person means following your own ethical code. You know who you are.

[SnailShell]

Thanks Jaded7-

Findingratidue makes a good point- it is difficult to be framed as the "bad guy". I think we want to be seen as good, and with good intentions. Karpman triangle dynamics help put this in perspective. If someone with BPD is in victim perspective, then other people are either rescuer or persecutor. That doesn't mean their perspective is true, but we can't change someone else's thinking.

Families also have their own adaptive behavior. Family members may "know" but the family culture may be denial or want to protect their BPD family member. Also when this is a part of the family, it becomes a "normal" to that family. In some families, to say anything is considered a betrayal of the family.

It does feel validating to hear that someone else has seen the behavior too, but I think people can have their own boundaries regardless. A boundary includes knowing what is you and what isn't. If someone claims something about you that isn't true- that doesn't make it true. Being a good person means following your own ethical code. You know who you are.

This, this and exactly this!

"The BPD is the victim, so everyone else must either by the rescuer or the persecutor".

Yes.

In the early stages of my relationship, I felt like an absolute hero - I really did.

And I wasn't exactly comfortable with it - and I don't think I encouraged it consciously.

But I guess it also did feel good to have a pretty girl cuddling up to me, telling me how amazing I was - and how good I made her feel.

It's satisfying isn't it?
To know that you've helped someone to feel good.

Who doesn't want that?
It's why people volunteer at puppy shelters etc (and y'know - we SHOULD feel good when we help other people - it's right, I think).

Buuuut... I was also uneasy about everyone else being made into some kind of villain, and I sensed that I'd be a villain one day too.

My friend once said to me
"You might have to let them hate you so you can both move on.", and I sensed he was right.

---

BUT -

How galling and difficult to randomly (and I do mean pretty randomly) be accused of stalking and harassment by some random guy I'd never met before.

What an absolute kick in the gut to be the sudden perpetrator.

And to know that he felt like the hero - how I used to feel (not that I'd ever threaten anyone - that's kind of unhinged).

And I believed it.

I looked at younger photos of myself around that time and thought

"I'm the kind of guy that makes r*pe victims feel terrified."

It honestly tortured me - I really struggled to live with myself.

Now, when I look back... she constantly messaged me after breaking up with me. I replied.

She kept me on the hook - I was trying to understand how to navigate things so that neither of us got hurt.

She suddenly got a new boyfriend, didn't tell me, and it was just really bad luck that I happened to see them coming around the corner when I did.

I know I wasn't stalking her - I didn't even want to see her; I'd decided to move on.

I know I wasn't harassing her - I only messaged her to let her know that I was cutting contact.

I know it's not a crime to be upset (I mean upset - not angry, particularly) when you see your recent ex with another guy; especially when it's a BPD ex who has been very confusing.

I know it hurt that she communicated so coldly and unkindly with me after I let her know that I'd seen them.

I was a normal human, acting emotionally - and yeah, it was a bit intense; but that doesn't make me a nasty, stalking, horrible, harassing, abuser of women.

The guy who called me even told me: "You're risking her life!!"

So I have no idea what she told him, but - no. Sorry. Not true.

Jeez... that was a really, really hard time in my life.

I'm glad it's over, and I'm glad to be moving on!

[Notwendy]

It's not just with you. My own BPD mother has done this with me- said things to others about me that aren't true. It's ranged from being embarrasing to actually harming relationships.

Sometimes others don't know. Since BPD behaviors are more with the closest relationships, more casual friends may not know.

An aquaintance I knew was abusive and a narcisist in his romantic relationships. I would not have known this except that he dated a friend of mine and she told me why they broke up. With me, at a professional and aquaintance level- I didn't see any of it. I think some higher functioning people with PD's may not be seen as such by friends. Family would likely see it.

[findinggratitude]

What an absolute kick in the gut to be the sudden perpetrator.

This. And it's a double-edged sword, because at one point you were the savior. And the shift is not something we are aware of until they reveal it, so it feels like, well the whole white to black analogy. And then comes the questioning of yourself, as in, "where did I go wrong so that this happened?". That's something I was stuck in for the first couple months post breakup, and I find it much easier recently to just kind of throw my arms up and say, " I didn't go wrong! This is just something out of both of our control that has very little to do with either of us as people." There really are three "personalities" in the relationships, I believe. Us, the person we knew, and the BPD. They always know the BPD is there, it's been a part of them for their whole lives. But we didn't. So, in the aftermath trying to work in that third component feels nearly impossible, and it's like some sort of bleak ghost haunting everything. And we sort of hope other people saw this ghost or felt it, and perhaps the families do, but then again, they have had it lurking around for the entire life of the person with BPD too, so it's much more integrated into their dynamic in a way we weren't aware of.

As far as casual friends, colleagues....I suspect they know "something" but can't place a finger on it. I knew from my very first interaction with my ex that something was "off" but I chalked it up to a sort of innocence on her part, or a naivete....it had an ethereal quality (still vaguely ghostlike though, if you think about it, but maybe more like a little fairy than a dark ghost)....but there was an "other" component in the mix from the very beginning which I believe was the BPD, and which I also believe most people kind of naturally shy away from. This would explain her lack of friends and close connections, and her tendency to worship people who she didn't actually know, but sort of fantasized that she did (musicians, certain celebrities). Those were her primary relationships, and all the other ones often became fraught with, if not conflict, than people being irritated or impatient with her. She was not well-liked, but that made me "feel" for her all the more because it felt to me like she just did not now how to "be in this world" and I took it upon myself to "show" her. That's a huge flaw within myself for certain that I recognize now, but also something she cultivated until suddenly she hated that dynamic (unbeknownst to me, but that's absolutely the root of our breakup, I suspect). It was very much a dynamic of "tell me how to be and live" which flipped to "you can't tell me how to be and live. I want to be free!" but I was never informed of this shift! I would have happily been less of a "mentor"....this made me uncomfortable from the get-go and was another thing that felt "off"...but then it morphed into feeling like a responsibility. It's all still quite confusing for sure.

[HoratioX]

My observation is they know.

An easy way to test this is to look at the social media of their friends and family. How much interaction is there? For instance, if one posts a pic, are they likes from the person with BPD?

No, not all friends and families interact closely, and not everyone follows others on social media.  But you might start to see obvious patterns, like some of the same friends or family are routinely posting or liking while the person with BPD is not, is not receiving the same attention, or both.

That suggests a rocky relationship, and if so, would be consistent with a lot of people with BPD -- that is, they are challenged to maintain close an long-term relationships.

[Under The Bridge]

I think most - if not all - of a BPD's family and friends know there's something 'off', even if they never see the BPD in it's full fury.

I know that while some BPD keep the abuse for when they're just with their partner and can appear normal to anyone else, I don't think they can ever totally shut it off and friends and family will know they have a problem, even if they just put it down to being 'a bit moody'. I thought my ex just had 'moods' when I first went out with her but as I became the main one in her life I saw the full effects of her condition.

Sometimes she did act up in public as well as in private and people certainly noticed. I had a lot of people she knew and worked with make comment - like they were warning me but without doing it directly or being disloyal to a friend. Same with bar staff in the pub we met in who knew her before we became a couple.  All tiny red flags at the time which of course you don't notice as you're in the idealisation stage.

I recall a conversation with her mother one time and I came away thinking 'She never expressed it directly but was she warning me not to expect good treatment from her daughter?' Looking back later, I can now see that's exactly what she was doing. Her stepfather was the same, saying I'd 'have my hands full' if I was going out with her.  All indications that they knew there was something wrong with her.

So yes, I think family and friends are well aware of what's going on.

[Notwendy]

Families have their own dynamics and if there's a disordered person, the other family members can take on certain behaviors to keep the family in balance.

In my FOO and my mother's family, it's as if they "know" but they choose to suspend their own sense of reality about her. Also there's the sense of protecting her and keeping her disorder secret. I don't think it's lying on their part. It's almost like they are compartmentalizing it.

Keeping my BPD mother's BPD behaviors a secret has been the unspoken family rule. We were not allowed to say anything about her. If we did, we were punished, and it's a fearful thing to talk about.

People may be aware but whether or not they will talk about it or admit it can vary.

[SnailShell]

Thanks for the helpful replies guys!

I think I sensed a kind of ‘conspiracy of silence’ around her, but I might be wrong.

I would have LOVED her dad to have taken me out for a coffee, to say “Hey - y’know - we’ve had a few problems with this girl… she’s lovely, and we really care about her, but she struggles sometimes. Here’s how you can help her, and please don’t feel guilt if you need to talk away.”

I understand why he didn’t though - she’d already cut them off once, and they were probably nervous it might happen again (as well as not wanting to interfere etc).

[CC43]

Hi Shell,

It's hard to be sure what your ex's family, friends and acquaintances think.  What I do know is that a victim mentality, a mercurial temperament and a pattern of volatile relationships are hallmarks of BPD.

A victim mentality could manifest itself when your ex could bad-mouth you to others in her circle, trying to paint you as a villain and her as the recipient of abuse.  If the people in your ex's circle didn't know either of you well, then they might believe her stories. However, if they knew your ex less than superficially, they may begin to harbor some doubts, because she seems to attract all sorts of troubles with all sorts of people in all sorts of situations.  They might start to think of her as a drama queen, a damsel in distress, a hapless girl who attracts misfortune and revels being the center of attention.  But unless she were outwardly hostile, they might not think much more about her.  She remains a drama queen in their eyes.  Similarly, her drama queen persona feeds into her mercurial temperament.  If she's attractive, she might be thought of as intense, stormy and alluring.  She's the one who over-shares, seems intimate in a casual setting, cries easily, suddenly leaves the scene and blocks people.  She's someone who needs being rescued.

I can think of a handful of people in my life who tended to act like that.  At the time, I didn't suspect mental illness, because I wasn't aware of mental illness beyond the extreme depictions in books and movies, or the long-term homeless.  After living with a family member with mental illness, I believe I have a fuller and more nuanced picture now.

You yourself might feel traumatized by the abuse of your ex, and you wonder why nobody seemed to reach out to you to offer support or fair warning.  But I guess if I were in that situation, I wouldn't feel right to intervene on your relationship, as it wouldn't be my place to do so between two consulting adults.  In fact, my sister married an undiagnosed NPD, and I felt there were many red and yellow flags from the outset:  a short courtship, a prior broken engagement, long stretches of unemployment, squalid living quarters (including pests), extreme beliefs/obsessions, unwarranted grandiosity, unaddressed health issues, financial concerns and a string of car accidents which were always someone else's fault.  But she was in love, and she was desperate to get married and have children.  You ask, why would she ever marry such a person?  Well, he was very intelligent (in an intellectual way), he was attractive, and his family had the trappings of success.  She probably thought if she could clean him up and feed him healthy meals, he'd realize his full potential.  She probably thought, he merely needed a little extra support to get out of the adolescent dorm-room life phase and graduate to family life.  Though I did gently suggest that she might slow down and get to know him better, she was insistent on moving forward as soon as possible, and I felt it wasn't my place to press her more.  Even if she did slow down, he'd probably turn on the charm anyway, and she would be blinded by her dream of starting a family.

[PeteWitsend]

In addition to what notwendy and others have mentioned about family, I'll add, in my experience dealing with BPDxw's nuclear and extended family, that they don't typically see a need to go above and beyond basic coping mechanisms in dealing with the pwBPD, and seek to understand their behavior on a deeper level, and also seeking answers to questions like "Why do they act that way?"

As an adult, you can simply avoid family members that might be BPD, and so it's easier to just chalk it up to "so-and-so is crazy!" and move on.  

Going that extra step to make a connection between a behavioral disorder or mental illness in a way closes the door on any normal future interaction, and so you can imagine why a person my be loathe to take that step with a family member, and yet be pushed to the point of doing it with a significant other.

[SnailShell]

Hi Shell,

It's hard to be sure what your ex's family, friends and acquaintances think.  What I do know is that a victim mentality, a mercurial temperament and a pattern of volatile relationships are hallmarks of BPD.

A victim mentality could manifest itself when your ex could bad-mouth you to others in her circle, trying to paint you as a villain and her as the recipient of abuse.  If the people in your ex's circle didn't know either of you well, then they might believe her stories. However, if they knew your ex less than superficially, they may begin to harbor some doubts, because she seems to attract all sorts of troubles with all sorts of people in all sorts of situations.  They might start to think of her as a drama queen, a damsel in distress, a hapless girl who attracts misfortune and revels being the center of attention.  But unless she were outwardly hostile, they might not think much more about her.  She remains a drama queen in their eyes.  Similarly, her drama queen persona feeds into her mercurial temperament.  If she's attractive, she might be thought of as intense, stormy and alluring.  She's the one who over-shares, seems intimate in a casual setting, cries easily, suddenly leaves the scene and blocks people.  She's someone who needs being rescued.

I can think of a handful of people in my life who tended to act like that.  At the time, I didn't suspect mental illness, because I wasn't aware of mental illness beyond the extreme depictions in books and movies, or the long-term homeless.  After living with a family member with mental illness, I believe I have a fuller and more nuanced picture now.

You yourself might feel traumatized by the abuse of your ex, and you wonder why nobody seemed to reach out to you to offer support or fair warning.  But I guess if I were in that situation, I wouldn't feel right to intervene on your relationship, as it wouldn't be my place to do so between two consulting adults.  In fact, my sister married an undiagnosed NPD, and I felt there were many red and yellow flags from the outset:  a short courtship, a prior broken engagement, long stretches of unemployment, squalid living quarters (including pests), extreme beliefs/obsessions, unwarranted grandiosity, unaddressed health issues, financial concerns and a string of car accidents which were always someone else's fault.  But she was in love, and she was desperate to get married and have children.  You ask, why would she ever marry such a person?  Well, he was very intelligent (in an intellectual way), he was attractive, and his family had the trappings of success.  She probably thought if she could clean him up and feed him healthy meals, he'd realize his full potential.  She probably thought, he merely needed a little extra support to get out of the adolescent dorm-room life phase and graduate to family life.  Though I did gently suggest that she might slow down and get to know him better, she was insistent on moving forward as soon as possible, and I felt it wasn't my place to press her more.  Even if she did slow down, he'd probably turn on the charm anyway, and she would be blinded by her dream of starting a family.

Sooo much of this rings true - your description of a hypothetical BPD ex IS my BPD ex, haha!

But yeah, I get it.

It must be real hard for family.

From my perspective.. it sure would’ve been lovely to avoid it, but I also get why it just wouldn’t happen in real life.

And it probably would’ve been an imposition from family.

I did bump into her dad once afterwards though, and we had a nice chat.

I might be projecting, but he said one sentence to me, and I had the feeling he was maybe saying “I get it, and you’re okay” - I appreciated it!

[SnailShell]

In addition to what notwendy and others have mentioned about family, I'll add, in my experience dealing with BPDxw's nuclear and extended family, that they don't typically see a need to go above and beyond basic coping mechanisms in dealing with the pwBPD, and seek to understand their behavior on a deeper level, and also seeking answers to questions like "Why do they act that way?"

As an adult, you can simply avoid family members that might be BPD, and so it's easier to just chalk it up to "so-and-so is crazy!" and move on.  

Going that extra step to make a connection between a behavioral disorder or mental illness in a way closes the door on any normal future interaction, and so you can imagine why a person my be loathe to take that step with a family member, and yet be pushed to the point of doing it with a significant other.

Yeah true -it must feel like a heck of a lot to process!

[findinggratitude]

I think because of this: a mercurial temperament and a pattern of volatile relationships

This is how family members cope:

nuclear and extended family, that they don't typically see a need to go above and beyond basic coping mechanisms in dealing with the pwBPD,

When it came to my ex I found she either had family members who avoided her entirely or went extremely low contact (the sister who will only rarely text but never visit or talk with her, and the father who has his own mental health issues and seems to be as volatile as my ex...so they have very rare short and casual little visits, and year's long lack of communication) and then her mother, who appeared a victim herself. By that I mean a victim of my ex, and kind of reveled in that long-suffering-mother-of-a troubled-daughter role. And it was apparent she was afraid of my ex, in that she never did any "normal" parenting that even parents of adult children do as far as offering advice or guiding. She simply "allowed" my ex to do what she pleased, often very poor decisions like dropping out of college, constantly moving, etc. There was absolutely a tacit agreement that her mother simply support and agree no matter what my ex did or said. And even they rarely actually spend time together. I will add her mother suffers from anxiety, migraines, and a host of other ailments that, if I were to diagnose, likely are at least partly a side effect of being her mother.

[Notwendy]

Family dynamics operate as a system on their own. If one person in the family has a disorder, other family members take on certain behaviors to keep the family in a sort of balance. The other family members may or may not have their own issues- and while their behaviors may be dysfunctional in general- they are functional in the family system. It's not just with BPD but with other disorders too.

Walking on eggshells, and enabling/caretaking behaviors were the "normal" in our family.  The unspoken family rule is that we must pretend my BPD mother is "normal" and not dare say anything about her.

What happens if someone doesn't abide by the family rules? Not going along with the family dynamics will result in the other family members feeling discomfort. They will try to get the dissenting family member back in line. If that doesn't work, they may then reject the family member and reconfigure themselves into a new balance.

As findinggratitude described-if this happens, family members may go low contact or NC (having been rejected themselves or decided to do this)  or remain in an enabling relationship with the pwBPD.

It's not that family members don't know or are hiding the truth. It's that there are consequences for doing so- consequences they may not want to risk, such as being rejected by family members who then align with the pwBPD. Or fear of the pwBPD's reaction, or that this family rule is so much a part of their "normal" they know to not do it.

[SnailShell]

I know this might sound trite - and maybe a bit off-hand (so forgive me if it does - I think I'm a bit tired right now and that feeds into my response here); but... the more I reflect... the more I think it's reasonable to just say:

"People really shouldn't be with people with severe mental health issues."

I know - easier said than done.

I've been there at least long enough to understand how it happens, and that 'once you're in, you're in'; somewhat.

And I know it might also sound a bit cold, or derisive.

But I just think... if people aren't well, they shouldn't be dated/married. And if they are, it creates SO much ripple effect for all involved.

That's my big takeaway for my own life anyway - I just don't think I could do it again...!

[PeteWitsend]

I know this might sound trite - and maybe a bit off-hand (so forgive me if it does - I think I'm a bit tired right now and that feeds into my response here); but... the more I reflect... the more I think it's reasonable to just say:

"People really shouldn't be with people with severe mental health issues."

I know - easier said than done.

I've been there at least long enough to understand how it happens, and that 'once you're in, you're in'; somewhat.

And I know it might also sound a bit cold, or derisive.

But I just think... if people aren't well, they shouldn't be dated/married. And if they are, it creates SO much ripple effect for all involved.

That's my big takeaway for my own life anyway - I just don't think I could do it again...!

Well, you can't choose your family, so in that regard, as @notwendy described, within family dynamics, it's different.  Maybe dysfunctional in a way, but reconfigured around the pwBPD to "accommodate" their disorder. 

It does seem like we see more people in romantic relationships w/pwBPD here than people from families.  I think that is consistent with the different approaches one might take.  Within a family, it's less 1-on-1, me-versus-BPD conflict, and also, family members - at least as adults - aren't expected to have to caretake eachother, like you might see with spouses.  So there's more pressure as an adult on a day-to-day basis.  Within families, at some point one can just avoid the pwBPD, cut contact, etc. rather than having to figure out a way to live with them.

I also think, going back to your original question, families of the pwBPD have probably seen the pwBPD go through partners regularly, as they leave after some point in time when it gets to be too much.  Given that they have their own coping mechanisms and established distance from the pwBPD, they're not going to go out on a limb and warn potential mates (victims?) away from the pwBPD because: 1) you're just one of many; and 2) on the chance it gets back to the pwBPD, they risk unnecessary blowback and conflict with them.

And maybe - given the typical lack of depth in understanding from family members - they're HOPING the pwBPD finds a nice girl or guy to "straighten them out" or at least bear the brunt of the fighting, so they have that incentive to stay out of it as well.  simply basic self preservation 101.

[SnailShell]

^ Yeah, makes sense!

(I wasn't referring to Notwendy specifically with my post by the way - you're right to point out the difference.)

*Sigh* - it's a complicated game to play, the BPD one, hey?

It's helpful to consider this take on it though - because it means that it's not as though I (for example) was just left to 'find out the hard way' by people who didn't really care.

And it's not as though I need her friends and family to tell me they understand so that I can feel justified either.

The circumstances around that situation will be messy, unclear and all tangled up; and it's not a bad thing to simply get out without trying to understand it too much...

Actually - most people coming out of a BPD relationship probably - ultimately - understand all they need to know (even if it doesn't feel like that at the time).

[Notwendy]

"People really shouldn't be with people with severe mental health issues."

That's my big takeaway for my own life anyway - I just don't think I could do it again...!

I think you have a right to decide who to date or not and when to discontinue a relationship.

Of course it would be a civil right issue to stop anyone from having a relationship with someone else, but each person does have a choice of who to have a relationship with.

And maybe - given the typical lack of depth in understanding from family members - they're HOPING the pwBPD finds a nice girl or guy to "straighten them out" or at least bear the brunt of the fighting, so they have that incentive to stay out of it as well.  simply basic self preservation 101.

True but I think in a different way. I wouldn't wish an abusive situation on anyone. It wouldn't be acceptable to think "well now that they can mistreat this other person, they aren't doing it to me".

It's that BPD affects the most intimate relationships the most, and so it's possible to think - "I can't make them happy so maybe this other person can" if they don't fully comprehend the dynamics involved. Even with dysfunction, family members still care about each other and so there's some hope for their well being, but it's not with intent for someone else to feel hurt.

But before you think your ex is happier with some new guy- know that without some kind of change process, like therapy- an intimate relationship is likely to follow a similar pattern with them.

[findinggratitude]

I think it's really understandable to wonder what goes on within the families of people who suffer from BPD, and I had a period of time when I really wanted to reach out to my ex's sister just to figure out what the heck was going on with my ex. I had spoken to her mother, but it was during a joint Facetime, and the conversation was so superficial and strange...as with most everything related to my ex. There was something "off" about it, and I knew it in the moment but didn't let it sink it. I think her mother was hoping for someone to "straighten her out", and to take some of the responsibility off of her as well. I believe all of us who have involvement with people with BPD are working with many scripts and a lot of subtext (some of which we know, and some of which we are not aware of) because the nature of the dynamic is always fuzzy and there is so much vagueness in how they express themselves, their feelings and the stories they tell.

 In many ways, until the catastrophic grande finale of these relationships, much of the rest of the time we are enduring death by a thousand cuts with what seem like little things that are "not quite right", such as that chat with her mother, or the fact my ex kept looking at my phone, or the fact she would have these panic attacks that didn't quite feel legitimate to me and involved a lot of rocking and having to go outside and pace around in a way that seemed more performative than authentic....all those things put together reveal someone with a severe mental health disorder that manifests in a million different idiosyncracies. And I think it's natural to want to know from other people who have experienced those that we are "right" in our assessment somehow. I, anyway, naturally take blame for things when they go awry, or at least partial blame, and in a more typical dynamic that's easier to do because the lines are cleaner as far as transgressions, but more importantly, the interpretations of those transgressions. Because we all make mistakes.

And I think given the spectacular manner in which these relationships blow up, it's really hard to integrate into how we may normally enter into a breakup situation with the way these explode. So, we want someone to normalize the experience for us by having shared it in some way...and we get that here to some extent, but to go directly to others who have been involved with the person we were involved with is probably part of that seeking too.

[findinggratitude]

It's helpful to consider this take on it though - because it means that it's not as though I (for example) was just left to 'find out the hard way' by people who didn't really care.

The thing with this. I don't think it's not caring. I think every last person involved with a person with bpd in whatever degree of intimacy is kind of a mess from it. So, we're all confused. This includes long-suffering parents and siblings and friends. I believe those of us who were romantically entangled are perhaps the most curious as far as "figuring the whole thing out" because we are hurt and blindsided....but more than that, totally misread as far as who we believe we are and how we operate. Being painted black, or even gray, to use the verbage, is an unbelievably bitter pill to swallow when you try very hard to do the right thing. When your earnestness is seen as deceit it's a real mental challenge to wrap your brain around. Or to not integrate somehow as a truth. But it's just not.


And it's not as though I need her friends and family to tell me they understand so that I can feel justified either.

I understand this, too. But I wonder if it's justification we're seeking? For me it's more validation and that my truth is at least mostly the truth. The aftermath of these relationships feel very much like looking at yourself in one of those fun-house mirrors. Everything is at a weird angle or distorted. It takes time, I'm learning the hard way, for it to go back to "normal". And with family who have lived with that distorted image of themselves and their family member with bpd for ages, it has to start seeming almost normal to them. I imagine there's less drive to "straighten the angles" because that's how it's always been.

[SinisterComplex]

But before you think your ex is happier with some new guy- know that without some kind of change process, like therapy- an intimate relationship is likely to follow a similar pattern with them.

^^^This right here is the most important thing to focus on. Especially when discarded...keep this thought at front of mind. Why? Well even when you are hurting and going through grief of being discarded it helps to know it ultimately isn't you. The person you thought you were with was actually a mirage and that they are damaged and will continue on that path and perhaps the new or next partner may even have it worse, but rarely if ever better.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[Notwendy]

It's understandable that one would want validation. I think it's possible that family and friends are least able to provide validation. A family member may wonder if something is "off" about the person, but not have their viewpoint validated by other family members and then second guess ourselves. I became aware of the possibility that my BPD mother had some kind of mental illness by my teen years,  but if we kids were to say anything like that, we'd be punished.

My BPD mother has a charming and personable outward persona. People who don't know her well don't have a clue. Nobody had a clue that our home life was anything different than what they saw. It would take living with her- as her spouse or children to see the extent of her BPD.

To address the question- how much do family and friends know? That varies. The other question- if they do know, would they tell you? Probably not. It's not because they are cold heartedly leaving the romantic partner to figure it out for themselves. It's possible that they too haven't gotten validation for their own perception either.

[SnailShell]

It's understandable that one would want validation. I think it's possible that family and friends are least able to provide validation. A family member may wonder if something is "off" about the person, but not have their viewpoint validated by other family members and then second guess ourselves. I became aware of the possibility that my BPD mother had some kind of mental illness by my teen years,  but if we kids were to say anything like that, we'd be punished.

My BPD mother has a charming and personable outward persona. People who don't know her well don't have a clue. Nobody had a clue that our home life was anything different than what they saw. It would take living with her- as her spouse or children to see the extent of her BPD.

To address the question- how much do family and friends know? That varies. The other question- if they do know, would they tell you? Probably not. It's not because they are cold heartedly leaving the romantic partner to figure it out for themselves. It's possible that they too haven't gotten validation for their own perception either.

Aye, all of these posts make good points - but just a quick one to say I'm sorry you went through that with your mother.

My ex really wanted kids, and it scared me a bit that she couldn't see how hard it'd be - especially adding in her mental health etc.

I'm glad your parents had you of course :D, but I was nervous about the whole idea of it...

I didn't want to be secretly sympathising with kids one day, saying "I know your mother is hard, but she means well..." or trying to explain her behaviour to my family or whatever.

No one can see the future, but it just felt like it'd end up that way somehow...