BPD and house cleaning/hygiene

[LittleRedBarn]

In July 2023, a Protective order was brought against me following my dBPD husband's mental health breakdown. It was finally lifted this week, which is great news for both of us, and we are taking the first tentative steps towards living together again.

Before I moved out, I had always taken responsibility for keeping the house clean. Mostly I did it myself, because my husband hates strangers coming into the house. When I had to leave, I started off by nagging him to do the cleaning that I would otherwise have done myself. This created a bad situation for both of us, as he constantly felt criticized and I was incredibly frustrated by not being able to do what I had done for years. In the end, I took a step back and told myself that it was his house now, and it was up to him how much cleaning he did and didn't do, so I wouldn't nag him any more. I communicated this to him, and he was grateful, and we left it at that. Stopping trying to change him  in this respect definitely made my life easier, although I was aware that one day I would have to face the consequences, if I ever returned home.

Yesterday, I went home for the first time, just for a couple of hours. I was really shocked by the state of the house. I know everyone has different standards of cleanliness, but I have never been inside a house as dirty as mine now is. Some examples:

• spillages, mouldy food and black mould in the fridge
• thick yellow crusts of dried pee where the toilet seat meets the bowl
• burnt on spillages on the cooker hob
• dried mud on the carpets
• a thick layer of dust over everything
  

The sad thing about it is that he told me he had spent all morning cleaning in honor of my return, which I think is probably true!

What I worked out is that he literally does not see the things that I have listed above. If I was to point them out to him, he would see them, but it would trigger massive self-judgement and blame which he would then project onto me. So I haven't said anything yet.

I'm not looking for solutions here - I just wanted to ask, is this a feature of BPD? Does anyone else have experience of someone with BPD living alone and not noticing/caring that the dirt and grime is slowly building up around them? Or is it 'normal' behavior and my husband and I simply have very different standards of cleanliness from each other?


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[Notwendy]

I don't know if it's a BPD issue but it reminds me of some college apartments (not all, some kids are more interested in cleaning than others). Even if a young adult knows how to clean, the first time away from home, without parents reminding them- they may be forgetful.

 If you have been doing most of the cleaning, when you were gone, your H may just not have thought about it and the mess may bother him less than it bothers you. My best guess is that you've been the one cleaning and he didn't think about it.

[kells76]

Hi LittleRedBarn;

To me, it seems like a "yes and no" answer to your question.

In the sense that pwBPD experience chronic emotional dysregulation, where we all have the same general human experiences but theirs are with harmfully intense emotions, then perhaps for your husband in particular, this is an area where the disorder is showing up. We are all somewhere on the "messy to neat freak" spectrum, regardless of whether or not we have BPD, but if BPD is involved, then there may be more extreme emotions layered over that natural place on the "messy to clean" range. Those chronically dysregulated emotions can impact how your H's natural "neat or messy" tendencies show up -- perhaps making them more extreme or, like you mentioned, attaching emotional experiences to something not necessarily inherently emotional (cleaning the bathroom is not inherently emotional, though if BPD is in play, he may have extreme, unregulated emotions about it, impacting his ability to execute).

My H's kids' mom's home is not a clean place. One of the kids' friends has mentioned this (without really thinking about it) in front of us at our home. Part of why I had to call CPS earlier this year was due to a flea infestation there, coming on the heels of missing smoke detectors, broken beds, a rat infestation, etc.

However, it's really important that I don't jump to the conclusion of "extreme filth means BPD", and it's also important that I don't generalize ("my pwBPD does ABC, so that must mean that doing ABC is only a BPD thing"). Any human being, with or without BPD, could be extremely messy, as it's just a human thing, not BPD specific. I think I've heard of some members' pwBPD here having obsessions with cleanliness and that being a source of conflict, and that's whether the pwBPD lived alone or separately (like a girlfriend/boyfriend) or in a family situation together (husband/wife and children)

Sounds like your H is very much on the "doesn't notice -- extremely messy/unhygenic" end of the normal spectrum though that has no necessary correlation with BPD. That being said, it doesn't make it easy for you (as you have different priorities), or make your home a nice place to live for you.

It's a difficult and stressful situation for sure. Keep us posted on how we can support you right now;

kells76

[Anon guy 47]

Welcome and sorry to hear about your situation. I don't think it is related to BPD as my wife with BPD is a clean freak to the point that people cant wear shoes in the house or we cant eat until we clean the pans we just cooked in, 2 showers a day, If I am working on something and go to the bathroom, when I come back it is either in the trash or put away etc...

I read somewhere that BPD is often accompanied with some level of OCD which my wife has when it comes to cleaning. 

Most males aren't really clean freaks either,  If it doesn't smell or if it's not in the way (stopping you from doing something) then it is not a big enough issue to clean it. 

I am curious about the protective order, was it against you or him and what caused it to go into effect? 

[LittleRedBarn]

Thanks, everyone, for the thoughtful responses.

It sounds like the lack of interest in house cleaning is most likely simply a function of background, upbringing and 'being a bloke' but where the BPD comes into play is if I try to express how I feel about it, which my dBPD husband always takes as a criticism of him.

I think my best route forward is to use validation as much as I can - praise him for how well he has looked after the house in my absence, how it still feels like a safe and loving place for me to be, how I am looking forward to moving back home permanently as soon as we both feel ready. And then maybe to ask for his help in preparing the house for the Christmas holiday. I can say that he knows that I find the 'dust' and 'stickiness' (his words) difficult and it would be so lovely for both of us to work together on getting the house into shape so we can have a special Christmas together.

The thing I am finding hardest is that, during the first few months of the Protective Order, I talked to him frequently about how difficult I was finding it, knowing that the house was not being cleaned. I talked at length about how having a clean house makes me happy, that I'd always taken pride in keeping the house looking good for both of us , and never resented it because I actually enjoyed doing it. So knowing that the house was being neglected, and the dirt was building up, was really hard for me, and made our enforced separation even harder. I asked him if I could arrange for contract cleaners to come in and he refused because he doesn't like strangers coming into the house. So in the end, I said that I wasn't going to nag him about it any more and that I would leave it up to him to decide what to do.

So now, seeing how he has literally done nothing about it for well over a year, makes me feel that he doesn't give a sh*t about how I feel. He has probably completely forgotten those conversations and is just blindly living his own life without any concern for me. *This* is what makes me angry and resentful - not the dirty floors or mold in the shower. I could cope with those, it's the utter indifference to something that I have told him repeatedly is important to me that is really hurting me right now.

The DBT courses I have done all major on 'benign interpretation' - always assuming the best of our loved ones rather than the worst. I think I need to try and re-frame this situation to a place where he isn't uncaring and indifferent towards me, it's just a quirk of his personality that I never knew about before. It's just a small part of who he is and something that is easily outweighed by all the positives in our relationship. That way it doesn't need to be a problem going forwards - once the house is clean again, I can just pick up where I left off.

Thoughts, anyone?

[LittleRedBarn]

 

I am curious about the protective order, was it against you or him and what caused it to go into effect?

The Protective Order was against me. There is also a felony charge against me. I was arrested after my dBPD husband's mental health breakdown last year. I can't really talk about it in an open forum as the case is ongoing, but feel free to DM me if you'd like to know more.

[Notwendy]

.

It sounds like the lack of interest in house cleaning is most likely simply a function of background, upbringing and 'being a bloke' but where the BPD comes into play is if I try to express how I feel about it, which my dBPD husband always takes as a criticism of him.

So now, seeing how he has literally done nothing about it for well over a year, makes me feel that he doesn't give a sh*t about how I feel.

Thoughts, anyone?

I understand your feeling that he doesn't care about you, since you have discussed that you care about a clean house. I don't know if this is true in terms of not caring about you. I have a mother with BPD and she seems very uncaring of others. I think in part it's because pwBPD are overwhelmed with their own feelings and that is their focus.

I have an elderly mother with BPD and in her era, most women were housewives and so the appearance of the house was important to them in terms of identity. If you kept a tidy house, you were a good housewife. Our house was oppressively clean. It looked good but if you dared to mess anything up, she would be very upset. It's similar to Anon guy's situation. I didn't cook in my mother's kitchen because if there's a crumb on the floor or a spot of food on a pan left, it's an issue.

However, she, herself, doesn't clean her house. We had household help- and we would do our own tidying up. She has poor executive function when it comes to doing daily tasks.  I don't know how she'd manage if she were to be asked to keep the house up on her own.

My kids have been in college and I have seen some pretty scary looking college apartments. What I have seen here happen is that- these are kids away from home on their own for the first time. They may have grown up in clean houses and done their chores but now, away from home, they can do what they want. They haven't seen what happens if you don't clean so they don't think about doing it- and then it gets bad to the point they notice. How bad can vary but it's their place and so, it needs to get bad enough for them to notice it and be bothered by it to motivate them to keep it clean. This is how they learn- natural consequences, and it works better than a parent telling them. Ultimately- we can't control their own level of clean in their own house. There also has been personality conflicts where one room mate is messier than another.

It's upbringing too. He may not have grown up doing these household tasks. It's possible your H may not even know how to do it or how to start. He may actually have cleaned before you came over but did a poor job of it.

I think this has become a point of conflict between the two of you. Nagging or being critical hasn't worked. I think it would help if you didn't take his behavior personally. It's probably something he doesn't think about. If the house gets dirty enough- someone else- you, his mother, probably took care of it. I think this is a case of each of you having different standards of clean. If he lived alone, his place would look as you found it.

I like your idea of praising him for his efforts but be careful to not be too patronizing with that. I also like the idea of working together to get the house ready for Christmas. It may help to have scheduled cleaning times where you work together on a task list rather than telling him to do it and leaving him to do it on his own. You may need to have a chore chart - a list of tasks that need to be done daily, weekly, monthly so he's aware of what needs to be done and when.

[LittleRedBarn]

Thanks, NotWendy, this is extremely helpful.

My kids have been in college and I have seen some pretty scary looking college apartments. What I have seen here happen is that- these are kids away from home on their own for the first time. They may have grown up in clean houses and done their chores but now, away from home, they can do what they want. They haven't seen what happens if you don't clean so they don't think about doing it- and then it gets bad to the point they notice. How bad can vary but it's their place and so, it needs to get bad enough for them to notice it and be bothered by it to motivate them to keep it clean. This is how they learn- natural consequences, and it works better than a parent telling them. Ultimately- we can't control their own level of clean in their own house.

This is a good analogy and it occurs to me that the only other time I have seen a house looking similarly neglected is when my son shared with some friends in college. And  the point at which people notice the dirt varies, so one person might have a higher 'dirt-tolerance' level than another, which is where conflict can occur. My dirt-tolerance level is around one month of doing only perfunctory cleaning. Then I usually have a blitz, or pay someone else to do it. My H's dirt-tolerance level is clearly much higher - eighteen months now and he is still okay with it. Looking at this way removes judgement and blame, we are just different people.

If I can remove the judgements, we can hopefully work together to reach a compromise that suits both of us.

It's upbringing too. He may not have grown up doing these household tasks. It's possible your H may not even know how to do it or how to start. He may actually have cleaned before you came over but did a poor job of it.

I think he genuinely did swirl a toilet brush around  the toilets and give a perfunctory vacuum before I came over, it's just that the dirt had already built up to such a level that it will take more than that to remove it.

I think this has become a point of conflict between the two of you. Nagging or being critical hasn't worked. I think it would help if you didn't take his behavior personally. It's probably something he doesn't think about. If the house gets dirty enough- someone else- you, his mother, probably took care of it. I think this is a case of each of you having different standards of clean. If he lived alone, his place would look as you found it.

I agree, the first step is for me to not this personally. And, yes, if he lived alone the place would definitely look as I found it. He did live alone when we first met, but it was a rented apartment and the landlord sent an inspection team round every six months, so he was forced to do something at that point. He did nothing in between the 6 month inspections, though.

I like your idea of praising him for his efforts but be careful to not be too patronizing with that. I also like the idea of working together to get the house ready for Christmas. It may help to have scheduled cleaning times where you work together on a task list rather than telling him to do it and leaving him to do it on his own. You may need to have a chore chart - a list of tasks that need to be done daily, weekly, monthly so he's aware of what needs to be done and when.

Thanks for the encouragement. I think doing the work together will be important for both of us. I have physical limitations due to surgery and a recent fracture, so I can pitch it that I need his help and that I'd be really grateful to him if we could sort it out together.

To summarize, I think I need to:

• Not take it personally
• Not judge him for his attitude towards dirt/cleanliness
• See that this is my problem, not his. He is quite happy with the house how it is
• Ask for his help to solve my problem. This will help me to not feel resentful that he has neglected the house while I've been away.

We have always said that, if one of us has a problem, we both (or the relationship) have a problem, so I think he will respond well to this approach.

[kells76]

Good discussion, especially about benign interpretation and not taking everything personally. Yes, BPD is in play... and, even without BPD in the mix, two partners can have very different thresholds for what's livable around the house.

This stood out to me as well:

I think my best route forward is to use validation as much as I can - praise him for how well he has looked after the house in my absence, how it still feels like a safe and loving place for me to be, how I am looking forward to moving back home permanently as soon as we both feel ready. And then maybe to ask for his help in preparing the house for the Christmas holiday. I can say that he knows that I find the 'dust' and 'stickiness' (his words) difficult and it would be so lovely for both of us to work together on getting the house into shape so we can have a special Christmas together.

I like your idea of praising him for his efforts but be careful to not be too patronizing with that. I also like the idea of working together to get the house ready for Christmas. It may help to have scheduled cleaning times where you work together on a task list rather than telling him to do it and leaving him to do it on his own. You may need to have a chore chart - a list of tasks that need to be done daily, weekly, monthly so he's aware of what needs to be done and when.

NEABPD has a helpful handout on validation in general, with a section specifically on validation targets ("what should I validate?"):

Obviously, there has to be reality in what we validate. If someone has, for example, a dream for a professional life that is beyond his or her abilities, it would be unfair to validate the actual possibility of achieving that dream. But how we respond to the other person’s expression of the dream is important. We can be mindful and start with empathy/understanding of the dream, validate that that is what the person wants, and also realize that we do not have to support all steps of a plan. For example, if someone has broken a relationship and is moving, we can support the move but not necessarily the behavior that lead to the breakup of the relationship.

Targets: What Should I Validate?
▲ Feelings or emotions (e.g. “I can see you are really upset with me.”)
▲ Legitimacy in wanting something (“I know you want money to decorate your apartment because you want it to look nice. Right now I don’t have money to give you.”)
▲ Beliefs, opinions, or thoughts about something
▲ True values about something
▲ How difficult a task is (“I understand how difficult things are for you.”)
▲ How hard a person is trying to accomplish something (“I know you are trying to do the best you can right now.”)
▲ Things a person does that are effective for herself or himself (“I know how hard you are working on things and it looks like it is paying off. You are really trying and it is helping the situation.”)
▲ Things a person does for another (“You were so helpful to your grandmother.”)
▲ Efforts made (reinforce)

It may be worth thinking through whether it is actually valid to praise him for looking after the house so well -- do you really feel/think/believe that the house was well taken care of?

Or is it more that you genuinely think he did his best? Or, can you two be on the same page that yes, it is a difficult task to keep an entire house clean on one's own?

Validation is important... as long as we validate the valid, and don't validate the invalid 

[LittleRedBarn]

This is very helpful, Kells, especially the reminder that we should not validate the invalid!

Here are some of the things that I can validate about my H's time living alone in the house:

1. Keeping the house tidy. He may not value cleanliness, but he is tidy. He has not allowed clutter to build up, no piles of paperwork anywhere, no dirty dishes in the sink.
2. Keeping the fridge, freezer and pantry adequately stocked for his needs.
3. Doing his own laundry, keeping his closets tidy.
4. Handling tradesmen (he hates doing this!) eg when kitchen faucet started to leak.

I'm sure I can think  of some more.

And, yes, I'm sure we can have a conversation about how looking after a big house on your own is really hard work, and often a thankless task.

I'm starting to see what my DBT Skills for Couples course means when they talk about conflict being an opportunity for greater intimacy!

[314rabbit]

My spouse have had a few iterations of an accountability structure for cleaning tasks. Latest release is an app called "Hometasker" which I have found very helpful on its own. My spouse continues to do less than agreed to.

My spouse and I are implementing a secondary sticker chart so they get a sticker when they do their chores list on hometasker. Every week, new chart. Every chart goes to the therapist. Consequence is explaining to the therapist why they didn't do their chores all week. Off my plate!

We'll see how it goes.

[CC43]

Hi there,

I happen to think that dirt blindness has little to do with BPD.  I would consider my husband to be very neat, but he just doesn’t clean. In his eyes, a tidy house is a clean house. However he probably has never wiped down a counter, sink, fridge, floor, window, baseboard or tub, even though he lived with kids and pets. He could have a dust bunny infestation without noticing. Sheets might be laundered once a quarter, tops, and speaking of tops, the comforter might have never been laundered, ever. Spider webs will be weaved up and down drapes, and he won’t notice. He is literally nose blind to urine and mildew smell.  With some luck, a spill will be picked up with a dry paper towel.  I love him, but he does not know how to clean. If walls get dirty enough, he might paint over them. When his tub got too dirty, he put some sauna boards in it to stand on. This is how he lived as a single dad, and he was fine with it. Since we married, I do all the cleaning, because I care about a clean house. He’s simply blind to it. In fact he used to get angry at me because he thinks I’m obsessive, but I have allergies. Nevertheless, I think he now secretly enjoys a clean house, as he has made comments about fresh sheets and sparkling chandeliers. Together we’re probably a good team, as he conquers clutter, and I focus on cleanliness. It’s normal for people to have some strengths, weaknesses and preferences in home economics. Outside, my husband focuses on the grass and seasonal decorations, and I focus on most of the rest (weeding, pruning, patio+furniture, power washing, outdoor windows, small repairs).  Divide and conquer!

[LittleRedBarn]

I happen to think that dirt blindness has little to do with BPD.  I would consider my husband to be very neat, but he just doesn’t clean. In his eyes, a tidy house is a clean house. However he probably has never wiped down a counter, sink, fridge, floor, window, baseboard or tub, even though he lived with kids and pets. He could have a dust bunny infestation without noticing. Sheets might be laundered once a quarter, tops, and speaking of tops, the comforter might have never been laundered, ever. Spider webs will be weaved up and down drapes, and he won’t notice. He is literally nose blind to urine and mildew smell.  With some luck, a spill will be picked up with a dry paper towel.  I love him, but he does not know how to clean. If walls get dirty enough, he might paint over them. When his tub got too dirty, he put some sauna boards in it to stand on. This is how he lived as a single dad, and he was fine with it. Since we married, I do all the cleaning, because I care about a clean house. He’s simply blind to it. In fact he used to get angry at me because he thinks I’m obsessive, but I have allergies. Nevertheless, I think he now secretly enjoys a clean house, as he has made comments about fresh sheets and sparkling chandeliers. Together we’re probably a good team, as he conquers clutter, and I focus on cleanliness. It’s normal for people to have some strengths, weaknesses and preferences in home economics. Outside, my husband focuses on the grass and seasonal decorations, and I focus on most of the rest (weeding, pruning, patio+furniture, power washing, outdoor windows, small repairs).  Divide and conquer!

Great post, CC 43, thank you so much! This could describe my marriage exactly - I just hadn't realized it before. I love the idea of 'dirt blindness'!

It's also very refreshing to think this is just an ordinary, everyday 'couples' type problem, rather than something created by BPD.

[LittleRedBarn]

Managed to negotiate with my dBPD husband that I could get contract cleaners in. His condition was that we spend the day out together doing something fun, while the cleaners were here.

Just back now from a really good day out, to find a sparkling clean house. I couldn't be happier! Win-win for everyone, apart from our bank balance. But it was money well spent.

In the past this would have derailed us for days, and might even have jeopardized me moving back home. It's a great example for me of how changing *my* behavior, rather than trying to change his, can produce real results.

Thanks everyone here for the support and advice.

[Notwendy]

That's a great solution. Glad it worked out!

[kells76]

Managed to negotiate with my dBPD husband that I could get contract cleaners in. His condition was that we spend the day out together doing something fun, while the cleaners were here.

Great negotiation! Whether you were intending it or not, it sounds like the DEARMAN structure may have been in play. Good example of it start-to-finish.

Just back now from a really good day out, to find a sparkling clean house. I couldn't be happier! Win-win for everyone, apart from our bank balance. But it was money well spent.

In the past this would have derailed us for days, and might even have jeopardized me moving back home. It's a great example for me of how changing *my* behavior, rather than trying to change his, can produce real results.

You bring up a good point -- that there are no "free lunches" in general, and especially when BPD is in the mix. There's always a "payment" -- you both were able to shift the "payment" away from relational conflict and on to a more appropriate area. When we let go of "well he should just be OK with my suggestion no matter what" and towards "we both have needs and wants, and we both may need to agree on what we're willing to 'spend' to achieve them", then you can find real-world solutions, vs being resentful that "utopian" ideas (like "she should just know that my way is superior and do it") crash.

Another good point that the only person in the dynamic we can control is us  

Glad the two of you had a positive experience of asking for needs and following through. Hope that is building a stronger foundation for your future.

[CC43]

Hi again,

I love your solution!  Look, when my husband and I first moved in together, my "dirt blind" husband generally resented the fact that I was cleaning the house regularly.  After all, he was tidy.  But he claimed my cleaning was "obsessive," whereas I insisted it was normal to run the vacuum and wipe down the kitchen and bathrooms once a week, at a minimum.  He might have taken some offense, like I was implying that what he did around the house wasn't good enough.  Most of all, I think he felt like I was working around the house all the time (well, there are dishes to clean every single day . . .), and that made him feel guilty, as he was spending more time with hobbies and leisure.  He probably thought I was trying to "guilt trip" him, and he resented the idea that he felt compelled to to spend a little more time doing housework to keep up with me and "my" cleanliness standards.  Sometimes I had to resort to cleaning in secret, when he wasn't around, because he seemed to resent it that much.

To solve this problem, I basically came to the same solution as you.  I started to pay for cleaners.  Even though it's expensive, I was satisfied because I could live in a clean home.  And my husband didn't resent me as much for seeming to "guilt trip" him.  Ever since, the stress and arguments about what cleaning I was doing and when I was doing it have diminished.  Of course we still talk about cleaning sometimes, but they are minor skirmishes, not wars anymore.

I'd encourage you to consider finding room in your budget for cleaning.  It might be worth the price of marital peace, plus a clean environment.  If you think about it, that might be well worth it to both of you.  And you might have more quality time together, as well as more time to put in a little extra effort at work to make the cleaners affordable.  To me, it's money well spent.

All my best to you.

[LittleRedBarn]

Thanks, everyone, for the thoughtful and encouraging replies!

CC43 - your housework dynamic sounds exactly like mine. My husband values 'tidiness' and I value 'cleanliness'. The problem is that he tends to take me wanting a clean house as a personal criticism. I think he was pleased to find the house clean when we got home, but later he said, "All that dust was my dead skin and hair, and now you've paid people to remove it," as if the cleaning was a personal attack on him.

I'm definitely going to work on the idea of having cleaners come in, maybe once a month, in future. I think I can use the fact that I've had major surgery to say that I'm simply not physically able to manage such a big house on my own any more. He knows how having a clean house makes me happy, so hopefully he will agree to it. And if it pushes us towards a monthly day out having fun together, that has to be a good thing too!