Examples of concrete boundaries to enforce?

[MindfulBreath]

Hi friends,

My hBPD is having his quarterly bad split (for about a week now). Reading the book Stop Caretaking the Borderline/Narcissist has really changed my life for the better. I've started establishing and maintaining boundaries with consequences for crossing them (most basic example: when he starts screaming, I tell him that he may not speak to me that way, and if he doesn't stop I close the door to my office and put on noise-canceling headphones). But I feel like I am at my wit's end at the moment. The angry energy in the house is so toxic I don't want to be anywhere near it. When he comes down from this bout, I really am feeling the need to articulate additional strong boundaries so I can actually keep living my life and find some peace and joy, even when his eyes are black and he's stomping around the house for days on end.

Does anyone have any examples of concrete boundaries that they've implemented that have been successful? Everything I'm thinking of feels too vague (ie, "when you are angry I will leave for a few days" feels unfair - we all get angry. It's just a level of intensity and duration).

I remember someone saying something about creating a boundary where if their wife made suicide threats, he would get her put on suicide watch. While he hasn't done anything like that (yet), these are the kinds of examples I would very much appreciate.

Thank you in advance!

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[kells76]

Hey MindfulBreath 

What a stressful situation you're in -- even though you know it's kind of "on schedule", that doesn't make it fun.

Tell me a little more about this:

Does anyone have any examples of concrete boundaries that they've implemented that have been successful?

What would success look like to you?

[MindfulBreath]

What would success look like to you?

Hi Kells - thanks for the question! The example that I gave about the user who said that he would call the psych unit if his wife made suicide threats is a good one - success there was that she stopped making the threats.

In my case, for example, me putting on my noise-canceling headphones and closing the door when he rages helps a little bit. It stops fights that would normally burn very hot and leave me feeling like I'm having a heart attack. He will keep yelling for a few minutes and then stop. So, that feels like partial success.

I guess real success would feel like stopping the split, but I know that's not possible. Or, success for ME would be to be able to just remove myself from the situation, go about my business, and have him contact me again when he has calmed down and come back to Dr Jekyll instead of Mr Hyde.

As mentioned before, I feel like I've reached my limit of being around his incredibly negative and intense energy during his splits. It feels very toxic. I am an empath (he actually likes to say that I have no compassion for him, which is pretty funny), and I have a hard time not feeling his feelings. I feel that it is actually detrimental to my physical health in the long-run.

Does that help?

[campbembpd]

Good question/post!

I’m interested in this as well. I get the idea of setting boundaries such as: if you start yelling/name calling/speaking in an angry tone/etc I am going to need to leave the room/house/etc.

But I have the same thing with my uBPDw - sometimes there’s not overt name calling or outright raging, just an air of negativity or hostility, like her anger is so thick in the air it’s palpable and everyone can feel it.it’s so terribly uncomfortable. Once she starts raging even if the immediate argument and explosionsis over she’s still hostile, angry, etc. Makes me feel sick sometimes in the pit of my stomach. Like the air is filled with flammable gas and if you step or breathe the wrong way she might explode again. It could be a little comment or the way she responds with angry tonality. So I’m interested in what type of boundary others set for that Sounds like you have the same situation sometimes. Honestly I fantasize about leaving the house for days and refusing to be in the same space as that. I don’t know what else would give me peace since I know nothing but time will calm her down.

Also - circular conversations. I’m also struggling with thinking about boundaries for those situations, do you experience that? The same thing, often something ridiculous, will be brought up over and over (I think of beating a dead horse). She demands an explanation or why I would do/think/say something. How to shut down the Spanish Inquisition? She wants to talk about it over and over. I really struggle with not JADE’ing when she’s demanding an explanation over something. Again and again.

One boundary I did set is I told her any more suicide threats will result in a call to 988.

[CC43]

Hi there,

Your question is a really good one.  I've thought about boundaries many times over the years.  Given some experience, I find that if my loved one with BPD is swearing and shouting at me, it's best if I don't engage.  I try to avoid JADEing, even if it's hard, because that only fuels the fire.  I'll be as still and boring as a grey rock, or I'll extricate myself from the situation, by slowly leaving the room or going about my business.  If I'm followed, I'll rinse and repeat.  If I'm called repeatedly on the phone, I'll answer, but if I hear yelling, I'll say something like, You're stressing me out, I'm going to hang up.  If they demand a response, I'll say something short and sweet like, There's nothing I can say that will make it any better.  And that's true, it's hard to argue with that.

I have a different take on the passive-aggressive negativity.  Though it can feel toxic, I try not to let it get to me.  I focus on what they DO, rather than how they seem to FEEL.  I'll let them feel how ever they need to feel, as long as they don't take it out directly on me or do damage to the house.  If they continue to go about their business (going to work, doing chores, running an errand, etc.), then I think, fantastic!  They might be seething, but they are functioning, and they are getting through the day.  I don't need their bad mood to infect mine.  Since they are functioning and doing what they need to be doing, then I can go about my business, too.  In fact, I focus on my business, not her mood.

Here's how it may play out.  Suppose I say, Good morning.  Maybe she'll give a sarcastic grunt.  Or maybe she'll ignore me completely and walk away.  I surmise that she's in a terrible mood, and that typically means that she's stressed out or disappointed by something.  Even so, she restrained herself and didn't erupt in a rage.  She refrained from blaming her family for her own problems (aloud).  So I just accept that she's in a bad mood and let it go.  I give her time and space to work through her emotions.  And I get on with my life, trying to enjoy it in spite of her negativity.  If I have to, I get outside for some fresh air and keep some distance.  I remind myself that I'm responsible for my mood, and she's responsible for hers.  I choose to be happy (most of the time), and she chooses to be negative.  It's her choice to make.  In fact, I think she might actually like to be negative, because it's the way she copes with her stresses.  Thinking about how she's a victim and everyone in the world is against her is a distraction from what's really bothering her--the disappointment du jour.  As long as she keeps the thinking in her head and doesn't lash out or act destructively, that's progress in my opinion.

[MindfulBreath]

Thank you both for your responses. You gave me a chuckle when asking how to avoid the Spanish Inquisition and then being as still and boring as a grey rock 

For avoiding the Spanish Inquisition, personally, this happened to me again today. The circular conversations. Where he blames me for everything and has a laundry list of how I've wronged him, but when I say "actually - you've had very similar behaviors to what you are accusing me of, and I let them go and move on", he says "you never let go of the past!" and then around we go. But the moment I can feel the tug to JADE (because man, it can be hard to resist), I just try to stop the conversation and call it out. "We've discussed this. We are not going to get anywhere. We are just going to have to agree to disagree, and it's okay." Then I walk away and/or stop responding to texts.

I actually think that we should ALL practice being as still and boring as a grey rock. When I first learned to meditate, my meditation teacher told the class a story about a monk sitting in the mountains getting bitten by bugs but still not moving, choosing to be silent and still and one with nature. I find it so interesting that DBT, which our people should be doing, has such an apparently strong mindfulness component. Because really, in my experience, mindfulness is the only thing that actually allows me to stay the boring grey rock and not let the bug bites bother me.

Maybe I've gone too far with mixing analogies, but I think you know what I mean.

Anything that can ground us and tune us into our own thoughts and feelings apart from theirs is helpful. The more we get sucked in and infected by their negativity, the harder it is. I think one of my main issues is that I work from home - but that will kind of change soon. Having at least one space uninfected by the negative energy - and clear boundaries keeping it that way - is (hopefully) going to be a game-changer!

[Skip]

We have an article here about boundaries. It's a good read: https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

We need to be careful not to confuse ultimatums with boundaries.

An ultimatum is about consequences to alter behavior. "If you touch me, I'm going to call the police". Ultimatums clearly assign fault, and have retaliate consequences. "If I ever catch you cheating again, I'm going to lock you out". Fault. Retaliation.

There is a time a place for ultimatums. Overused, they are abusive in there own right.

People are generally more responsive to positive and neutral enforcement and cooperative outcomes. This is an important point if you are building or continuing a relationship.

So diving down into more subtle things:

If you start yelling/name calling/speaking in an angry tone/etc I am going to need to leave the room/house/etc.

Fault. Retaliation. And then eventually, shame, counter anger and resentment (in some mix).

Positive reinforcement might look like this...

Prepare the field. In a time of peace and calm, have a loving conversation about highly emotional times and how you want to hear what the other person is saying, but all ability to communicate is lost in the heat. Agree to some plan like to both separate until the next day when things are cooler.

Respond as agreed. I can see you are upset and I want to hear what you have to say but I'm flooded with emotion right now and can't think. Let's talk about it tomorrow. I'm going to go for a walk as we agreed.

Another version is...
I can see you are upset and I want to hear what you have to say but I'm flooded with emotion right now and can't think. Let's talk about it tomorrow as we agreed. Can you quietly tell me the short version of why you are upset so I can think about it. Its important. I'm going to go for a walk as we agreed.

Funny dog story. I have had big dogs for years. A while back I was struggling with a dog that went bonkers if there was a squirrel outside. I'd grab the collar and the dog would pull and bark and I would pull and make noise. An older gentleman walked over over on day and said teach your dog to want to behave. That worked.

[MindfulBreath]

Thank you, Skip. This is incredibly helpful. I think I need to get to a mindset shift about setting positive boundaries instead of making them punitive. Yes, they are to protect my own mental health in the moment, but I am also so angry myself that this is happening again, that I'm being accused of something that I did not say or do, for example, or a big blowup seemingly comes out of nowhere, my initial inclination is retaliation - okay, if you're going to treat me like that, then I take away my love by cutting you off until you calm down.

Your dog analogy was also quite funny and sadly true. Teaching them to want to behave. So what are the rewards of behaving well that could be more motivation to not go into the downward spiral? Since so many of their actions seem to be based out of fear, is a desire for a reward strong enough to counter the fear? Also, speaking like that sounds like manipulation. It all sounds a bit manipulative, in fact. But I just need to keep thinking about it as creating a strong river bank through which the emotions can flow, sticking within the banks instead of flooding all over the place.

Thanks for your insight and for the link to the resources.

[ForeverDad]

Also - circular conversations. I’m also struggling with thinking about boundaries for those situations, do you experience that? The same thing, often something ridiculous, will be brought up over and over (I think of beating a dead horse). She demands an explanation or why I would do/think/say something. How to shut down the Spanish Inquisition? She wants to talk about it over and over. I really struggle with not JADE’ing when she’s demanding an explanation over something. Again and again.

In the year or so before my marriage imploded, my ex would rant and rage increasingly.  Repeated apologies didn't work since she would keep bringing the same complaints up over and over.  And she would work herself into such an emotional state that no amount of reason (JADE) would work, reason just riled her up more.  I especially dreaded the late night (into early morning) declarations, "We're not going to sleep tonight until we fix this!"

Positive reinforcement might look like this...

Prepare the field. In a time of peace and calm, have a loving conversation about highly emotional times and how you want to hear what the other person is saying, but all ability to communicate is lost in the heat. Agree to some plan like to both separate until the next day when things are cooler.

Respond as agreed. I can see you are upset and I want to hear what you have to say but I'm flooded with emotion right now and can't think. Let's talk about it tomorrow. I'm going to go for a walk as we agreed.

Another version is...
I can see you are upset and I want to hear what you have to say but I'm flooded with emotion right now and can't think. Let's talk about it tomorrow as we agreed. Can you quietly tell me the short version of why you are upset so I can think about it. Its important. I'm going to go for a walk [pausing the immediate discord] as we agreed.

Ex's issues were also about parenting, she was the parent, she was in charge, etc.  It got to the point of police intervention and separation.  That's when I found this site 19 years ago.  It didn't stop the two year divorce and years of custody/parenting conflict afterward, but the distance apart (ended adult relationship) did give me some relief.  Now that our child is an adult and grown, things are much calmer but I still need to be careful what I say when my ex is around.

Whether the relationship can be manageable or not long term, the insights, approaches and strategies - the collective wisdom here - are so very helpful.