I Feel the Inevitability of Divorce

[CC43]

Hi there,

Would it work better if you put a bed in your son’s room and slept there with him when your wife is raging?  Or maybe you fetch your son when you go to bed, so that he sleeps with you in your guest room?  That way you wouldn’t expose him as much when she rages. Just a thought.

My sister suffered domestic violence, and her ex beat her when she went to fetch her young son out of the room where her ex was experiencing a drunken rage. When she went to court to get a protective order, the uNPD husband accused my sister of hitting him first!  His lying and blame shifting is constant. Fortunately the court didn’t believe him, as my sister had evidence:  a doctor’s visit, pictures of bruises, and leaving the home with the kids immediately after the altercation. But even after years of legal work and significant non-compliance with the parenting plan, the uNPD ex still has unsupervised visitation rights, and he won’t agree to a divorce. The legal battle has been very difficult on the kids, because their visitations with dad are stressful and chaotic (lack of food, dirty home, skipping scheduled activities, dad sleeping all day, many visits to the health clinic/emergency room during visitation, kids staying up all night with screens, etc.). He is a no-show for about half of his parenting days, which distresses the kids, too, as they have to wait around for dad until they figure out he’s simply not coming.

[ForeverDad]

Please call. I hope that more men in this situation are calling. They won't judge you. First of all- call for yourself and then also... Call for your son, because you are his primary role model for how to be a man and you don't want to normalize seeing you be abused. You'd want him to also know it's OK for men to reach out for help and support  too.

You're an adult, you have had years to mature but your child is so young, he doesn't know what is normal and what is not.  He's senses a lot but not nearly with the ability of an adult.

Also, what is considered as "legally actionable" misbehavior for him to witness or experience is at a different level from what is considered actionable for you.  You would need local input to determine precisely how behaviors and actions are viewed in your area.

[HurtAndTired]

Hello all,

I am sorry that it has taken me so long to update this thread. I struggled to call the DV hotline. If I am being honest, I procrastinated doing it because I was dreading that as a man I would not be listened to or helped. I am currently on spring break as a teacher and ran out of excuses this week. I called yesterday and spoke to an advocate. I was pleasantly surprised at how well she listened and how reassuring she was. We spoke on the phone for nearly an hour.

This was also not just a DV hotline, but a local resource center. I have a follow-up appointment with her tomorrow. She has agreed to be my advocate going forward. She is going to help me get my son into play therapy. She is also helping me strategize about how to document the abuse going on in my home. She has worked with many people in my position and wants to help me protect my son from being exposed to the chaos that all too often exists in my home. She asked me about my relationship with my SS26. I told her that I helped raise him from the age of 12, that I was there for him more than his bio-dad was, and that was why it cut me so deeply when my wife triangulated him against me when he came into our home and physically threatened me last year. The advocate said that we would work to make sure that my wife was never able to do that with S3, which is one of my greatest fears.

As a trained social worker, this advocate is an incredibly powerful resource who has promised to help me prepare for leaving this abusive marriage...for free! My lawyer is great, but she costs $375 an hour. During the 12 months that I am preparing for my divorce, I can't afford to use the lawyer's services to strategize these things except in an emergency. For day to day concerns, this free advocate can help me navigate this long and difficult pre-divorce period in a way that will be admissible in court. I now can see myself walking into my attorney's office when I am ready to pull the trigger on legal action with a thick dossier of ammunition to use in court. Could I have done this on my own? Yes. Would it have been a lot harder and would I constantly be in doubt about whether I was doing things the right way or not? Absolutely!

I will touch back tomorrow after my meeting with the advocate if there is any pertinent new information, but for now I am just super relieved to know that someone will be helping to guide me through the process of leaving before I am ready to file for divorce. I am already looking at spending $15-$20K in legal fees once I file. I am beyond ecstatic that I don't have to dig any deeper into my pockets for guidance right now, especially when the whole point of this pre-divorce period is to get my finances in order.

Thanks to all who encouraged me to call!

HurtAndTired

[Notwendy]

This is wonderful news and I am glad you called- for yourself and for your son!

[ForeverDad]

Great that you have local resources to help you, above and beyond the remote support here.

Keep in mind that your Plan A will certainly face some hurdles and turbulence in the months ahead.  It's almost as though our disordered ones, as messed up as they are in many things, can sense small changes in our behavior and decide to sabotage us before we're ready.  All it take is one incident to pop up and sabotage it.  So stay on your toes, prepared to implement Plan B or Plan C, etc if and as needed.

[HurtAndTired]

Thanks Notwendy and ForeverDad,

I appreciate both of you encouraging me to make the call. I was afraid to do it, but am sure glad that I did.

FD, I know how unpredictable my wife can be in the best of times, so I am prepared for her to become even more unpredictable as I get closer to "D" day. She is already responding to changes that I have been making.

I quit drinking altogether several months ago. I used to enjoy having a few beers on a Friday to relax after a long week, but I noticed that she was more likely to blow up on me if I have had a few drinks, so I just quit. It hasn't slowed down her drinking in the slightest, but she sure doesn't like me not drinking.

I also have stopped buying her alcohol. If I am headed to the store, I ask if there is any food that we need. If she says buy me a bottle of margaritas (the large bottle, golden style with extra liqueur...beyond just the tequila, which costs around $20) I just tell her that I am budgeting just for food due to increased grocery costs so she needs to make a stop at the liqueur store if she wants that. She doesn't like that either, but I am no longer paying for her habit.

I don't know how long I will be able to ride the "plan A train" but will continue as long as I can. My credit score is already up significantly and I am paying off debt faster than I thought I would be able to. I will shift to plan B, C, or whatever is necessary. If an emergency requires I bail early due to safety concerns, my advocate said she can help set up emergency housing with putting my S3 and I into a subsidized apartment.

No matter whether I ultimately can physically stay in this house or not, it is of utmost importance to me that I am in a strong financial position when I go in front of a judge. I am going to push for
primary physical custody. My wife has a weird work schedule where she works 7 AM to 7 PM M, T, F, Sat, Sun one week and 7 AM to 7 PM W, Th the following week. This rotation repeats over and over. She has had this schedule for over 2 decades. I don't see that changing anytime soon and she hates change.

This schedule makes it impossible for her to drop off and pick up S3 soon to be 4 from school either 2 or 3 days each week. I am planning to ask for her to have custody on her weekends off of work, which is every other weekend. Her schedule makes one week on, one week off impossible logistically. Shuttling a little one back and forth between houses multiple times per week, as I understand it, is highly uncommon for courts to grant given that young kids need a stable routine. As long as I am financially stable and can fend off false abuse claims, I don't see how she could reasonably go for primary (or even 50/50 custody) short of quitting her job and getting a M-F job with regular hours (she has longed to do this since I met her, but has too much fear of job interviews to follow through on changing jobs).

Basically, I want to make everything as much of a slam dunk as I can, and as seamless as possible for my son. Even if I have to shift plans, repairing my finances is a key part of making sure that a judge sees me as the most stable and safe parent between the two of us. If I have to move up my timeline, my parents have told me that they would loan me the remaining money I owe on CCs to get my accounts squared and my credit above the 750s to have the best chances of good interests rates and mortgage approvals.

Thank you for reminding me of the need to be flexible and roll with the punches though. It is something that I will go over with my advocate tomorrow and get her take on things. Maybe after giving her some more specifics about my plans, she can give me advice based on what she has seen in other cases. I will update you all as I get more info.

Thanks again,

HurtAndTired

[Notwendy]

With keeping in mind that we can only control ourselves - I think you have made some very positive changes (in addition to reaching out for help)

You stopped drinking-
You stopped buying her alcohol ( stopped enabling her to drink)- Great boundary because it doesn't address her drinking- it's your resolve to keep to a budget- so you aren't "blaming" her- you are  responding out of your own values.
You are getting a better handle on your finances.

These are actions you are taking for your own well being and values.

Your wife may vary on her behavior or agreements but your values don't waver. These are boundaries- actions we take that reflect our values.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi all,

It's been a while since I have checked in, so I wanted to give you an update on how things are going and get some feedback from everyone. The past few weeks have been relatively quiet. My dBPDw has been low-level passive-aggressive, snarky, and generally unpleasant, but no overt yelling or screaming (until last night that is...more on that in a bit). She is still making occasional accusations of me watching porn and masturbating. Normally, I would just ignore this, but she is starting to make the accusations in front of our S3 (soon to be 4). He doesn't really understand what it is that she is accusing me of, but he can sense that she is not being nice to me, and that gets under my skin. Then last night happened.

I am on week 11 of no drinking and am feeling great, but my wife's drinking has increased and has increasingly gone underground. She is now hiding multiple bottles of liquor in her room at any given time, and the ones that I do know about are being drained and replaced pretty quickly. It seems like now that she knows that I am no longer drinking, she's more self-conscious/embarrassed about her own drinking. While I think that in a way this is good (at least she is being forced to confront that what she is doing is not normal and is shameful...why else hide it), it does have me concerned because it is getting increasingly hard for me to know just how drunk she is. Lately, I don't know for sure that she is very drunk until she starts slurring her words because she is building a pretty high tolerance to alcohol. This means that she can be very disinhibited due to drinking (which makes her much more dangerous), but is not yet slurring her words, and I have no idea because she is getting so good at hiding her drinking. I suspect that is what was happening last night.

Last night started out pretty normally. I got off work, picked up my son from daycare, stopped by the store, and went home. My wife was cooking dinner, I found out later that she had invited SS26 over for dinner. SS26 is late as usual, and we are still not on good terms since she triangulated him against me about a year ago, and he threatened to beat me up in my own home (he's a 26 year old competitive weight lifter on steriods and I'm an average to thin sized 50 year old man). He didn't show up until about an hour and a half before S3's bedtime, so we ate dinner fairly quickly and retired to the living room. My wife invited SS26 to stay for a while and asked if he had to get up early tomorrow. He did, and she was disappointed (she wanted him to stay and drink with her). As he is getting ready to leave, she asks him to help her set up a Snapchat account. He does so, and minutes later, she turns on me, asking why I have a Snapchat profile. I told her that I had set one up many years ago, had never used it, and forgotten that it even existed. I have honestly not even touched it since maybe 2013. That, combined with SS26 declining to stay and get drunk, was enough to send her into a split.

She started accusing me of using Snapchat to hook up with my students' parents and even my students. Demanded that I add her to Snapchat as a friend (I don't even have the app on my phone and wouldn't remember the username or password if my life depended on it) and demanded to see my phone. I remained calm and reminded her that she would not be accessing my phone or any other electronics ever again (an established boundary) and tried to go about the business of getting S3 ready for bed and tucked in.

During the whole process of his bedtime, which is very routine and regimented as he likes to have things be predictable and stable, she was bad-mouthing me in Spanish. I kept ignoring her and focused on our son. When it came her time to give him a kiss, she started telling him "Daddy is not a good father" in Spanish over and over again (I have an audio recording of this). I told her to stop scaring our son and let me finish putting him to bed. While I was doing so, she entered my bedroom, pulled the TV's plug out of the outlet, unhooked my Roku, and hid it in her room. I went to her room to confront her and told her that she needed to give me my property back or I would have to call the police. I also told her that she needed to stop saying awful things about me to our son. She said that it was ok because she was saying it all in Spanish. I reminded her that we have been speaking to our son in Spanish since he was born, and although he is mostly speaking in English at this point, he does understand what we say to him when we speak to him in Spanish.

We were at a standstill. I stupidly had made the empty threat of calling the police over a $65 Roku (although taking it was illegal, it would have been petty to call them over something so minor), and was not going to follow through on calling them. She was holding the Roku hostage to try to make me talk to her. She basically said another version of the same thing she has been saying for years now, i.e., we need to get divorced, I need to move out, she won't go to therapy to work on her issues, she won't stop being mean to me until I agree to move out, and she doesn't care that bad mouthing me in front of our son is damaging to him. If I really wanted the behavior to stop, I just needed to move out, and she would stop bad-mouthing me in front of him. This was all recorded as well, however, there was a new wrinkle at the end.

In this new iteration of her divorce fantasy, I just go away and leave her and our son in peace (just like her first husband did with her and SS26), but she now is saying that she will liquidate her 401K to buy out my equity in the house and pay off the rest of the mortgage. It would be an incredibly stupid thing to do. The tax implications of cashing out your 401K early are awful, and I believe she would lose a third of it to the government in early withdrawal penalties. However, making rational decisions is not her forte. This now has me concerned that she will indeed do something stupid and impulsive with what she sees as her secret weapon. I know that she has north of 200K in there, but not exactly how much.

Should I be worried about her using this money, as self-destructive as it is, to fund an ongoing legal battle against me? If she is serious about paying me off for my share of the equity, should I consider taking it, letting her have the house, and then fighting her for custody of S3 in court? Part of me loves the idea of being able to get out of this situation sooner rather than later. Maybe it was just something that she said in the heat of the moment (and drunk), and she regrets making the offer? Maybe she has come to her senses and realizes that she would be torpedoing her retirement by doing this?

I would love to be able to keep the house and keep our son in his bedroom, but if this house is a hill that she is willing to die on, my credit is good and getting better by the day, I have a stable and good-paying job, and I am working on my doctorate. Her paying me my share of the equity would wipe out any remaining debt that I have and leave me with a neat sum of money as a down payment on a new house. I am confident that I can get approved for a new mortgage, but with her spending habits and income, I am also equally confident that she could not qualify for a mortgage without me as a co-borrower.

Any advice or input would be greatly appreciated.


HurtAndTired

[ForeverDad]

Long story made short... Due to the way she was removed from our house, I had possession.  Two years later we settled on Trial Day, she got half the equity and half my retirement account.  We handled the retirement transfer in a court-ordered QDRO.  (Lawyers know about this.)

QDRO must be done in the correct way if the giver doesn't want unintended tax consequences.  The retirement company opened up a new retirement account for my ex and the agreed amount was transferred there with no tax consequences.

What did she do with it?  I assume she withdrew the money and spent it starting her own business.  Presumably she had tax consequences but it was not my concern and I was not impacted.

General lesson: You can't fix her and you can't live her life.

What you can do: If at all possible, you do have to ensure the other's choices don't boomerang on you.

[CravingPeace]

Hi HurtandTired,

We have been posting here about the same amount of time.
I just got done with Mediation. It worked it took over 15 hours we finished in the middle of the night. So my divorce took about a year. Most painful year of my life, but a great learning experience.

It is costing me 7 figures with alimony for 50% of the marriage length, I no longer have my house, lost over half my assets even some premarital ones that got comingled, am financially hard up. But it was worth it. Even now she threatens me constantly with court hearings when I am doing everything the stipulation and soon decree says! I don't care. I can't control her. I can only control me. Same goes for you.

Just an observation. Your posts follow a similar vein, about her, her bad behavior etc etc. How she wants a divorce, how you do.

The only question is why haven't you? Once you accept it needs to be done life gets easier. Yes there will be the worst splits you will ever see, but you can get through it and come out the other side.

It isn't worth staying in this type of relationship IMO, it's easy to use money, or any other reason not to do it. But ultimately what is more important your and your children's peace or excuses?

I am good with being cash poor, but emotionally at peace. My children already start to comment mom is crazy, or she's lying. All I have done is give them the tools to work it out for themselves. They told her the worst thing and most upsetting thing that ever happened to them was when the Protective order was filed and I was removed. She tried to tell them that wasn't true and they didn't feel that way and it wasn't that bad. My job is to explain to them their feelings are their feelings and nobody can tell them otherwise and to trust themselves. Point is only once you are out can you properly help protect your child. If you are in that situation as your child grows older, it will be hard for them to see who the problem is. It will be hard for you to guide them, and show them the real way as you are part of the toxic situation .

SO rather than worry about all the toxic things she does, bring the focus back to what you can control. What can you do and what will you do?

CP

[ForeverDad]

The only question is why haven't you? Once you accept it needs to be done life gets easier.

The first step on a new path is the hardest one.  Subsequent steps become clear and no longer as huge emotional hurdles.

[ForeverDad]

Point is only once you are out can you properly help protect your child. If you are in that situation as your child grows older, it will be hard for them to see who the problem is. It will be hard for you to guide them, and show them the real way as you are part of the toxic situation.

An insightful point... which is why, once we accept the relationship continues worsening, so many here have decided it is better to divorce, that post-marriage life would not be such as bad thing after all.

[Notwendy]

I call BS on the liquidating the 401K threat. However, it is possible and if she did it, what could you even do about it. My BPD mother made all kinds of threats but rarely followed through when it actually took a process to do them. This would require going through the process of liquidating it, buying that share of the house.

So much easier to destroy property. That did happen. So holding it hostage was a more believable threat.

Sometimes she'd make an outlandish threat to see if there's a reaction to it. We learned that the best response is to not react emotionally back to the threat. If she did it, we couldn't control that any way.

[HurtAndTired]

Thank you all for the replies,

Here is an update. Last night, as my wife was tucking S3 into bed, her bedtime story for him was about how she was going to buy him a new racecar bed that would be in a new house for just him and mommy. I also got a text from our old realtor today about her wanting to see a property in town, address of the house included...oops. She is making serious plans in this direction...at least in her delusional thinking. Now for the reality check.

The property she is looking at is brand new and is listed at $320K (our current house is 30 years old, was purchased for $230K, and is valued at $300-$310K, and she couldn't pay the mortgage here on her own). I just did our taxes, and she made a little over $50K last year. Even liquidating her 401K would not allow her to buy my share of the equity in our current house and purchase this new house. Even if she was approved for a mortgage on this new house, she couldn't afford the monthly payments. She has a shopping addiction and is not good with money. I'm not sure what her current credit score is, but it was low enough that I had to co-sign for her used car a little over 4 years ago. I am fairly confident that her credit wouldn't be good enough to get approved for a mortgage.

CP, I am so sorry to hear about the hell that you have gone through, but I am glad that things are looking and feeling brighter for you on the other side. To answer your question, what am I waiting for? I am trying to be responsible and put myself in a position to get primary custody of our son. I want to be able to show the court that I am able to provide a stable home for my son. That means I have to get my financial house in order. My wife can have her fantasies about dream houses she can't afford. I have to have an actual place for my son and me to live. I also have a special needs dog who requires a fenced-in yard. An apartment won't cut it, and I'm not going to put the dog down (his problems are bad enough that he is in effect unadoptable, plus I've had him since he was a pup, eight years ago).

In the last year, I have paid down a good portion ($15K) of the credit card debt that I racked up trying to make my wife happy. I will have another $10K plus paid down by the end of August. I will be at my financial safe spot in another 8 months (near 10% credit utilization) if I stay on this schedule. I've made it 13 years, I can make it another 8 months. I have fully accepted that divorce is the right thing to do. If I had the money right now, I would file papers today. I don't mind being cash poor either, but I do need to have enough to put a roof over our heads and pay an attorney. I am a public school teacher with no savings, at about 45% credit utilization, and no retirement fund to tap into (we are on a pension system).

FD, I agree with you that I have to let her do her own crazy thing as long as it doesn't boomerang on me. I don't want any part of her retirement money in the divorce as long as she keeps her hands off my teacher's pension. I'm pretty sure that if she nuked her retirement money before the divorce, that would be seen negatively by the courts (I think?)

As far as taking the first steps, I feel like I am pretty far down that path already. I have hired an attorney (I paid for her consultation and have agreed to pay her retainer as soon as I am ready to file divorce papers), I have a domestic violence advocate/social worker working with me to help document the abuse going on in my house to help with the custody battle, and I have annouced my plans to family and close friends to let them know I will be leaning on them for support in the coming months. Perhaps sooner, if things get dangerous/out of control. The only thing missing at this point is the financial aspect. I could borrow the money from my parents in an emergency, but I don't feel like I need to do that at this point, when I can dig myself and my son out in 8 more months. I will, of course, reconsider if things start to deteriorate.

Notwendy, I think you are correct about your calling BS on the 401K liquidation. She has elaborate divorce fantasies, and this is just another one of those. The fantasies fall apart when things would have to start getting real. One involved her wanting to fly out to Idaho to stay with her family for two weeks and taking our son while she contemplated her next moves in life. I put my foot down on that one because I suspect it could have led to a case of parental kidnapping, plus I don't trust her with his care for that long. That fantasy fell apart when she realized I wasn't going to buy a plane ticket for her and our son, and that her family wasn't going to either.

This house-shopping fantasy is another delusion. She can't even file her own taxes, let alone navigate liquidating assets. Before we were together, my wife always had a professional do her taxes. She would have to ask a financial advisor to help her with her $401K, and I have to believe that they would tell her that it is a very bad idea. I think she is flirting with the idea because she badly wants it at this moment. I have to remind myself that she was smiling and joking with me on Monday night at around 6 PM, and by 7 PM she had split. I had done and said nothing to provoke it. This behavior is a part of the split of two days ago. This divorce fantasy will dry up and blow away like the prior ones have once the split is over in another day or so.

This brings me back to the concerns about why I don't just up and leave right now. The difference between my wife and me is that she has divorce fantasies while I have divorce plans. I am methodical. I have always had to be the responsible one to clean up her messes, and this is no different. I can't afford to just run off willy-nilly because I want to. I have to make sure our son is taken care of. She is a financial wreck waiting to happen. My paying the vast majority of household expenses has been propping her up to the point where she can afford to have a shopping addiction. I want to make sure that when I exit the marriage, I will have sufficient resources to support myself and my son. I got excited when my wife mentioned paying me off with her 401K money the other night because that might have been a way for me to exit faster than I had planned, but I now see that this is very unlikely to happen.

Thanks to FD for reminding me a few posts ago to have a plan B, plan C, and so on, so that I can fall back on them if my plan A timeline has to move up due to escalating/dangerous behaviors. My plan A timeline is actually moving faster in a positive direction than I had anticipated, and I am tentatively moving my D date up a few months to December.

I think my plan for now will be to just let this split blow over and let her reset like she always does. I will keep on saving money, paying down debt, and gathering evidence. I am counting the days until I can get off this roller coaster and just live in peace.

HurtAndTired

[CravingPeace]

Sorry to put it so blunty but "No plan survives first contact with the enemy".

Sure you should plan. But i'd caution to waiting till you saved up this or that. When you do this, you can't predict what you she will do. All you can predict is it will likely be worse than you expect.

I was very very naive. We had 30k in savings I thought that'll get us throigh. I gave her half as she said she needed it to mediate. She used it to file a protective order after I said I wanted a divorce. The rest is history. I tried to be fair and the good guy and got burned.  Instead of spending 15k ish mediating a solution I spent 40k, plus the 15k I gave her on attorneys in 10 months. Most was spent defending against the 4 court hearings she filed for. So my point is doesn't matter how sorted or well planned you have it, bpd will totally screw that up.

As for the dog I hear you but a ground floor apartment would be fine. My dog needed spinal surgery right before temp order hearing. Commissioner said "with all that was going on was it wise to spend that on a dog". My answer "the children love that dog dearly and they have been throigh enough". Commissioner left that there... best interests of the children and all. Point is don't let a dog stop you doing what you need. A safe apartment on the ground floor for the dog. Sounds harsh compared to a house. Trust me on this it's 1000 X better than living in a house with a bpd. You have no idea how much your nervous system was shot until you get out and start to heal.

My ex didnt work for a few years some how the family law system thinks she should get to sustain her lifestyle without working. So i pay her 50% of my income and live in an apartment. That is STILL better than living with her any longer .

I'm just saying don't gaslight yourself into the fact you are being sensible and planning when infact you may be stalling as its much easier to do that than pull the trigger. As you know as well as anyone what carnage that will unleash. But it's STILL worth it.

[CravingPeace]

PS just to be clear I am not advocating rushing it, just make sure you don't stall.

Your bpd has been violent, so when you file you need to get her served and be well out of reach with your child. Protective order was used to abuse me in ny case. In your case you need it to stop the violence or risk of that i, thid is what they are supposed to be used for .

[HurtAndTired]

CP,

Thanks again for expressing concern, especially when it comes to the DV aspect of the relationship. I am very aware of the danger, but have not been physically attacked since the first week of September 2023. This was when I first followed through on my boundary that physical violence would result in the police being called 100% of the time. I know that she is still capable of losing it, especially if she has been drinking, and acting out violently despite knowing the police will be called.

This is why I am taking care to record as much as I can. If/when she acts violently, it will be recorded, the police will be called, charges will be pressed, and a protective order will be filed. Filing a protective order was one of the first things I brought up with my lawyer, and one of the first things my advocate/social worker brought up with me. I want to, if at all possible, avoid having my wife file a false order against me and have me locked out of the house/away from our son. If she does anything that gives me grounds to file a protective order, one will be filed immediately.

If this happens, I will have to move up my timing on filing for divorce. My attorney made it very clear to me that if I have to call the police, my next call should be to her. My wife being arrested for DV would require us to pull the trigger on everything. The lawyer told me that BPDs she has encountered in her practice have no hesitation in making false accusations of all kinds of abuse in order to try to get a legal advantage in a divorce. If we have grounds to act, we need to do so first, or she will surely do it to me.

I do want to make clear that I will only file a protective order if/when one is justified. I know that I can get a temporary one without having to prove anything, but when it comes time to make the temporary order permanent, I need to have enough evidence in court to warrant keeping her out of the house and away from me. If not, all I have done is make her angry and then let her back in close enough to hurt me/accuse me of abusing her.

I also don't want to imply that I am waiting for my wife to attack me. If I can get enough evidence of parental alienation (bad mouthing me in front of our son) and her threatening me, destroying property, etc., that would be good enough for a permanent protective order. This would keep her away from me during the divorce process and would insulate me from false accusations of abusing her. This is one of the reasons why I am recording all that I can get recorded.

I also assure you that I am not going to drag my feet or stall. This is not my first rodeo. I was married once before, to a woman with BPD traits. I know how bad that sounds, but I have been working on myself in therapy to make sure that there will not be a third BPD woman in my future. However, at the end of my first marriage, I found out that my wife was having an affair. I had zero hesitation in leaving her. I waited until she was at work, packed up my stuff, and moved in with my parents until I could get an apartment.

In that marriage, there were no children, no house, and no real financial issues to worry about. It was a cut-and-dried divorce with nothing to argue over. The reason I am being so cautious this time is that I am terrified of losing primary custody of our son. I need to make sure that when it is my time to step up to bat that I hit the ball out of the park. My goal is to have 70/30 custody with her getting every other weekend with him. That works with her weird shift work schedule, where she only has every other weekend off, and would actually probably be more convenient for her anyway (not that she would ever admit it).

HurtAndTired

[ForeverDad]

A person with BPD traits is typically more concerned for self than for the marriage, spouse or children.  So of course if the spouse looks bad, then she'll use exaggerated allegations to make you appear even worse.  (Denial, projection, Blaming, Blame Shifting, etc.)  And when one allegation fails, expect more.  Be aware and beware.

A weird thing about allegations.  In our experience an "unfounded" or false determination is a rare outcome.  Even if you have reasonable support to negate the allegation, almost always it is listed as "unsubstantiated".  And it seemed to me that no matter how many of my ex's allegations were closed or regarded as unsubstantiated, that had no bearing on the next ones.  I sometimes quipped, it seemed so endless maybe on the 101st allegation they might find something.

[HurtAndTired]

FD,

Thanks for the heads up about the allegations continuing to roll in regardless of what precautions are taken. In your experience, if there is a protective order in place that mandates the stbx keeps a distance of x number of feet from the person who filed, not contact them via phone or text, and limits exchange of children to be with an observing third party at a neutral location, etc. does that limit the amount of damage a pwBPD can do via spurious accusations? In other words, if my wife is told to stay 500 feet away, she is at her new residence, and I am at home with my son, can she conceivably still make an actionable accusation of me physically abusing her? I have been thinking of a protective order as being something that would insulate me from having to wear a body cam 24/7 once she goes nuclear by legally forcing her to keep her distance from me. I am naive to think this?

HurtAndTired

[ForeverDad]

Well, she could make claims about prior undocumented events but without substantiation they shouldn't make too much of an impact.

My lawyer warned me that if my ex was to stay away, then I had to do the same, so essentially I had to comply with the order too.  Let lawyers or other professionals be the intermediaries.

My lawyer told me of one of his prior clients who was obligated to provide wood to his ex by prior agreement.  Then he faced a stay away order.  The two conflicted but he didn't realize the new order took priority.  He should have sought legal advice or found someone else to make delivery.  Unfortunately he delivered the wood and was thereafter arrested.  That was my lawyer's warning to me.

If you have a minor child or dependent child together, then the court may decide on a shared schedule.  That would necessitate appropriate caution during exchanges or transitions back and forth.  We can discuss that further if necessary.

[try2heal]

Quick $.02 on paying off debts. Of course you don't want to have to pay a ton of interest, but whatever debts are present at the time of divorce could potentially be divided between you. So if you pay off 30K in credit cards and she still has 30K, you could end up having to pay another 15K.
Consider instead moving debt onto cards with 0% interest on balance transfers and developing a payment plan instead.

Everyone else has said all the things! Stay safe, plan what you can, be ready.

[ForeverDad]

I spent two years in the divorce process, a bit longer than most.  The main issue was custody and parenting since she was initially so entitled.  In one day, on Trial Day, we settled.  The Custody Evaluator set out the custody/parenting framework.  The financial matters were maybe an hour, probably less.  At that point the lawyers were focused on wrapping it up as quickly as possible.  Yes, they were a bit fast and loose in their rush but it worked out.

Ask your lawyer on how your state handles debts versus assets, since each state can have different laws and processes.

[HurtAndTired]

I should probably add that all of my credit cards are mine and mine alone. Ditto with my wife. We do not have any joint cards, nor do we have any joint bank accounts. Each of us has been married before, and our previous spouses were bad with money. The only thing we have jointly is the house. Our state is an equitable division state. While there is a small chance I could argue that the debt I have incurred on the credit cards that are in my name alone was debt that was incurred buying things that amount to marital property, I would not want to do so. I would then be opening myself up to "owning" half of her debt.

I have no idea what that debt is, but I do know that her shopping addiction-related deliveries appear on the doorstep every day, she has two walk-in closets filled with designer clothes (and more in storage), and an insatiable desire for more stuff. I am guessing that she has a very high percentage of her credit utilized. I do know that it was bad enough that she took money out of her 401K to pay some off a year or two ago because she couldn't get a consolidation loan. If I had to guess, she bought herself some breathing room on credit cards that were nearly maxed, and then has proceeded to nearly max them again. I know how much pressure she put on me to buy her things that I couldn't afford (hence my current credit card utilization of 45%, formerly above 70%!). I prefer to dig myself out of my own debt and let her worry about her own.

I just want to make clear that I am not trying to get "perfect credit" or anything that is a "nice to have" rather than a "need to have." A little over a year ago, I was in really bad financial shape. This was due to my wife's pressuring me to constantly try to buy her happiness. Whether it was intentional or subconscious, it had the same effect. It made me financially dependent on her. I have since come to realize that the pressure for the expensive gifts, vacations, and other things that she pushed and pushed me for is a form of financial abuse.

I was paying more than $1000 a month in credit card bills and working extra hours just to make ends meet. Without her income, I could not have afforded to pay the bills on my own. If I hadn't been so deep in debt, I could have easily paid them on my own. I was deep enough in debt that opening up a consolidation loan was out of reach. Same for 0% interest credit cards to pay things off. I have really had to buckle down and make a superhuman effort to dig myself this far out of credit card debt. I was drowning in debt, and I feel like I am finally able to begin breathing again. I either had to do what I have been doing or declare bankruptcy.

I don't need to have perfect credit, but I do need to have good credit, with a credit utilization rate below 30% to be able to qualify for the most basic things in life (mortgage/rental application, car loans, etc.). I would like to get closer to a 10% utilization rate, but that is a "nice to have," not a need to have. I owe it to my son to get my credit fixed. I cannot properly provide for him until I rectify the financial situation that I got myself into. I know that my son and I will have to rely on my income alone going forward, and I cannot afford to continue to spend such a large amount of my monthly income servicing high-interest debt.  It has been eating me alive over the past few years. This is a matter of financial survival that is just as important as my physical or mental health.

[Notwendy]

I don't have experience with divorce but I have experience with seeing the out of control spending of my BPD mother.

Are you in a state with joint property and joint debt? Because what I have heard is that the debt of one spouse is actually debt of both. Hers is also yours.

Also, in joint property- money you save is 50-50 - so half is hers.

There were many divorce threats- but BPD mother, with her poor executive function would not have been able to arrange that. She was also financially dependent on my father. The only way she may have done that was if she found someone else to meet her needs but that didn't happen.

Because the topic was brought up so much- and I could see the dysfunction- I asked my father- why not divorce? His reply- it was too expensive to divorce, but from what I could see, it also was expensive to stay married to her. My conclusion is- yes, finances are an important consideration but they probably are not the main reason to stay if someone wants to leave.

After my father passed away, BPD mother owned all finances and was making poor decisions with this.  I did step into the (impossible) role of trying to discuss finances with her in a rational manner. When this didn't work, another relative attempted as well- and also couldn't do it. I looked into any legal possibility of intervening and since she was legally competent, I could not. The concern was- she was compromising her own resources which she needed for her own care. But this spending was like an addiction for her. There was no controlling it. and so we watched, helplessly- while she went through it all.

So I wonder- if finances are joint property- and debt is joint debt, how can you possibly gain some stability if this is the situation.

[Notwendy]

To clarify- I am not countering your decision to get your financial ducks in a row. Lawyers, divorce- this is expensive. You also need to meet your needs and your son's needs.

I grew up very mindful of financial security due to the issues with money with my parents. But there was no control over BPD mother's spending.

The question was about - how feasable is financial security in this situation? I don't know the marital/divorce laws over money and debt in your area.

For my father- not necessarily anyone else- the money reason didn't make sense- because he never did make plans to divorce as far as I know of and he didn't threaten it. I guess he felt he had to say something when we naively asked him- but because BPD mother threatened divorce, we did wonder what was going to happen.

[ForeverDad]

The reason i encouraged you to find out the specifics of your state's laws and procedures is that you need to know what is likely in the financial divisions in a divorce.  For example, what if you do clear your debt when she is buried in debt (excluding retirement) but then state law says you split debts and assets?  Could you be forced to shoulder some of her debt since it occurred during the marriage?

That is a question we can't answer but your local lawyer should be able to provide informed advice.  We understand you want to be forward thinking and protecting yourself but please be legally informed on precisely how a divorce's financial process might impact you.  That should be a part of your decision making.

[HurtAndTired]

FD,

In my state, debts incurred on individual cards are treated as personal debts rather than marital debt. There are cases that have been argued that have asked the court to treat the debt as marital debt if it can be shown that the debt was incurred buying things that are marital property (groceries, medical expenses, household items, etc.) however these are generally only granted in extraordinary cases. I could argue that my debts were just that. I've bought very few things for myself over the years. However, I don't want to open that can of worms forces she would try to do the same. I'm happy to remain at the default position in my state that says her cards, her  debt; my cards, my debt. I already ran this past the lawyer at the initial consultation as it is one of my main concerns.

HurtAndTired

[Notwendy]

That's good to know. One concern is that since your wife is destructive with property- finances are a property too. I suspect that a part of my BPD mother's financial destruction was both an addiction for her and also in part, a form of abusive/punitive behavior.

If there was joint debt, then there'd be the potential for your wife to go nuclear with a credit card if she was angry. So it's good that this isn't possible. I'm not a lawyer but I think it is prudent to stay with the law that yours is yours and hers is hers and not question it.