Trying to figure out what to do

[Eagle7]

This is my first post.  I just discovered this board, and hope it will provide some personal help in coping. After years of bewilderment and frustration, I'm coming to the realization that she my have BPD.  I just stumbled onto this, but when I looked at the list of symptoms, it all lined up with high-functioning BPD.

We have cycles of highs and lows in our relationship, but never seem to be able to stay in a happy, sustained place.   

I'm so exhausted and frustrated, but persevering.  As I begin to read more of the archived material on this site, I hope something will be helpful.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Pook075]

This is my first post.  I just discovered this board, and hope it will provide some personal help in coping. After years of bewilderment and frustration, I'm coming to the realization that she my have BPD.  I just stumbled onto this, but when I looked at the list of symptoms, it all lined up with high-functioning BPD.

We have cycles of highs and lows in our relationship, but never seem to be able to stay in a happy, sustained place.   

I'm so exhausted and frustrated, but persevering.  As I begin to read more of the archived material on this site, I hope something will be helpful.

Hello and welcome to the family!  I'm very sorry you're going through this and my experience was similar.  I had a daughter diagnosed with BPD as a teen, only to figure out years later that my ex-wife likely suffered from it as well.  It's much more common than people realize and it's a heartbreaking mental health condition.

What are some of the things you've seen that make you think BPD?  And have you found any help in the archives? 

A lot of the time, we can't do anything about a loved one with BPD- they'll get treatment when they realize that they actually want it.  We can't push though because it only makes things worse (sometimes, much worse).  But we can change how we communicate and show empathy...which can also make a huge difference in turning the relationship around.

So please, ask questions, rant away, or do whatever you need to get to a better place.  We're here for you regardless and there is hope!

[Me88]

Keep in mind that even if they decide to get therapy, there is a good chance it may not work. My ex had a psychiatrist and psychologist for many years, was on a handful of medications for adhd/anxiety/depression, and it was not enough. Nothing could ever help her see her emotions, anger and outright abuse was anything but my fault. Add in reactive abuse from me, and everything became justified and I was a villain to her and everyone she shared one sided stories with.

I second working on your communication style. I failed at that, because I could not empathize with made up stories, twisted scenarios and her abuse. I couldn't find it in myself to understand and acknowledge her pain when I was on the receiving end of horrible treatment.

Look up the JADE argument technique. I'm sure you do it, and it is a sure way to make things explode...even when you are 100% in the right.

[Eagle7]

Thanks Pook And Me88 for the replies. 
 The things that point to BPD are:
-- her long history of sabatoging every close relationship she starts to develop. 
-- poor self worth /unlovable self-image
-- withdrawal from/rejection of emotional intimacy whenever we start to develop it (despite her insistence that she desperately needs intimacy)
-- her position, despite all this, that any problem in our relationship is 100 percent my fault
-- mind-reading behavior,  i.e. inability to accept my validation of her feelings unless I completely capitulate to her perception of what's going on in my thoughts (true or not)
-- her childhood history of neglect and SA

There's more indications, but that's a partial list. I don't think her therapist is correctly dealing with or diagnosing her. We've had couples therapy, multiple times, but she always walks away from it whenever the T hones-in on what her issues might be that are problematic, because, again "I'm the one, and the only one who has a problem."

I'll be digging through the archives, but any pointers would be great.  I'll look into the JADE technique, I haven't heard of that.  Thanks again.

[Me88]

Thanks Pook And Me88 for the replies. 
 The things that point to BPD are:
-- her long history of sabatoging every close relationship she starts to develop. 
-- poor self worth /unlovable self-image
-- withdrawal from/rejection of emotional intimacy whenever we start to develop it (despite her insistence that she desperately needs intimacy)
-- her position, despite all this, that any problem in our relationship is 100 percent my fault
-- mind-reading behavior,  i.e. inability to accept my validation of her feelings unless I completely capitulate to her perception of what's going on in my thoughts (true or not)
-- her childhood history of neglect and SA

There's more indications, but that's a partial list. I don't think her therapist is correctly dealing with or diagnosing her. We've had couples therapy, multiple times, but she always walks away from it whenever the T hones-in on what her issues might be that are problematic, because, again "I'm the one, and the only one who has a problem."

I'll be digging through the archives, but any pointers would be great.  I'll look into the JADE technique, I haven't heard of that.  Thanks again.

don't you love that everything is your fault? and yeah, you can't validate them. Anything you say isn't good enough and you're expected to just know. Has to be spoken exactly how they want to hear it. And forget about apologies, your apologies to them have to be point by point and address everything they perceive.

Does she have any other diagnoses? On medications for depression, anxiety, adhd, bipolar? Most of these people tend to have multiple mental health issues.

[Eagle7]

No meds and no other diagnoses (previous history of diagnosed depression). 
Yes, the apology thing can be agonizing.  Capitulating to her tainted view of me feels like lying to myself, and it only reinforces her conviction that I'm the problem.  Yet, arguing or defensiveness leads to extreme aggression from her, and validation ("I understand you feel that way", no matter how sincere/empathetic) is never enough.  It's a conundrum, and I don't know how to deal with it.
To be fair, my mishandling of the relationship in the past did, in fact exacerbate the situation.  I was trying to deal with her rationally and explain things, and I did withdraw emotionally for my own sanity. 
I'm operating differently now, but I've given her lots of ammunition to use against me.  I don't judge her for this, I understand it's her condition that's behind her inability to forgive and move on.  I know she really loves me -- I'm convinced of that -- but she really is very deeply conflicted and I need to work with that (and keep myself healthy while doing it).
It feels really good to have found this discussion board.  I thought I was the only one out there dealing with this.

[Me88]

You'll see, and be surprised that many of our stories are identical. The phrases they use are far too common as well. It's as if they're all the same person.

I feel that fully, they'll accuse you of something, assign intent to your words or actions, and if you disagree you're gaslighting them, they don't feel heard, you have no accountability etc. It drives you insane.

And yeah, I used to always say that 'I understand you feel hurt by what I did' (even if I didn't do it). You cannot use logic or reason with them. That's what 'JADE' is. In normal arguments you can justify things, argue your point and defend yourself, but what I've learned with them is that their emotions are reality. You have to agree with their perception 100% that you're the bad guy an they're the victim or else nothing gets better. At least that was my perception.

I thought mine really loved me too. But we never know what's happening behind our backs. Mine triangulated everyone into everything painting me as toxic and abusive. I was uninvited to things and hated by the end. That's why I left mine. No one wanted me around anymore due to her lies and exaggerations.

[Me88]

also....agreed, an inability to forgive and move on. Every argument becomes a highlight reel of everything you've done wrong. Lots of it revised from what actually happened. Hardest relationships to work through.

[Ridethestorm]

I'm also new here, so hi all! It sometimes feels too much for one person to deal with, cos the rest of the world get the charasmatic,.life and soul of the party side.I also don't understand the no JADE thing, cos it infuriates him that he's not getting any reaction, or at least not the one he wants, drama and arguments! The made up stories make u question your own memory after a while too. So, so difficult to maintain a relationship.

[Pook075]

Keep in mind that even if they decide to get therapy, there is a good chance it may not work. My ex had a psychiatrist and psychologist for many years, was on a handful of medications for adhd/anxiety/depression, and it was not enough. Nothing could ever help her see her emotions, anger and outright abuse was anything but my fault.

Treatment for mental illness is not like treatment for a broken leg.  There's not a set process to fix things (reset the bone, set a hard cast, wait 4-6 weeks, etc). 

This is an illness/injury of the mind, so the only way to actually heal is by someone mentally choosing that.  Take an alcoholic, for example, that's a psychological addiction just as much as it's a physical one.  If the alcoholic says, "I don't have a problem," then there's literally zero cure except for tying them to a bed for a few weeks.  But even then, once you release them they'll probably get drunk.

Your ex couldn't face that her conflicts came from within, so no amount of drugs or therapy can make a difference.  Like the alcoholic, she didn't see the full problem and that's the only way things can actually change.  Don't get it wrong though- the drugs didn't fail...or the therapist...or the psychiatrist or psychologist.  The process failed because the most important factor (admitting a problem and facing it) wasn't met.

[Me88]

Treatment for mental illness is not like treatment for a broken leg.  There's not a set process to fix things (reset the bone, set a hard cast, wait 4-6 weeks, etc). 

This is an illness/injury of the mind, so the only way to actually heal is by someone mentally choosing that.  Take an alcoholic, for example, that's a psychological addiction just as much as it's a physical one.  If the alcoholic says, "I don't have a problem," then there's literally zero cure except for tying them to a bed for a few weeks.  But even then, once you release them they'll probably get drunk.

Your ex couldn't face that her conflicts came from within, so no amount of drugs or therapy can make a difference.  Like the alcoholic, she didn't see the full problem and that's the only way things can actually change.  Don't get it wrong though- the drugs didn't fail...or the therapist...or the psychiatrist or psychologist.  The process failed because the most important factor (admitting a problem and facing it) wasn't met.

absolutely. I fully understand this now. Years ago I was so confused: she obviously knew something wasn't right which is why medications and therapy were sought. The intent to want to change just wasn't there. And from what I was told about her therapy sessions, all she was told was I was toxic and abusive (given one sided stories with zero context of course). She did admit that her rages and screaming/insults were not ok, but justified that by saying that's how she always argued, and that it was worse in childhood with endless physical altercations. It just bugged me that someone could name the issues one by one and still not change that behavior. Add in excessive amounts of thc edibles daily, and I'm not sure she even knew what was going on most times and just went into fight mode as a default.

[cynp]

In normal arguments you can justify things, argue your point and defend yourself, but what I've learned with them is that their emotions are reality. You have to agree with their perception 100% that you're the bad guy an they're the victim or else nothing gets better.

They do not like the way you hvve peeled the poattoes. Your side of the discussion will go like this: I am sorry I did not peel them corectly...yes, I imagine I was being lazy just then. I am sorry....Yes, I suppose it was a bit stupid too, I will do better...I am sorry I did not mean to be disresctful toward you for peeling the potatoes improperly, but i know it upset you...I did it and it was wrong. I am sorry. It will not happen again." And that is how it goes. no hint of talking down to them or becoming defensive in any way, or you will regret it. The next time you need to peel the poatoes you remember and do it as carefully as you possibly can. You ask them if it is ok. They are not dys-regulated that night, so they barely glance at them on the plate. "whatever, it's fine."   

[Pook075]

They do not like the way you hvve peeled the poattoes. Your side of the discussion will go like this: I am sorry I did not peel them corectly...yes, I imagine I was being lazy just then. I am sorry....Yes, I suppose it was a bit stupid too, I will do better...I am sorry I did not mean to be disresctful toward you for peeling the potatoes improperly, but i know it upset you...I did it and it was wrong. I am sorry. It will not happen again." And that is how it goes. no hint of talking down to them or becoming defensive in any way, or you will regret it. The next time you need to peel the poatoes you remember and do it as carefully as you possibly can. You ask them if it is ok. They are not dys-regulated that night, so they barely glance at them on the plate. "whatever, it's fine."   

It's really about learning to communicate in a counter-intuitive way.  In your scenario, I'd say:

"I'm open to learning from you- show me your way to peel potatoes."

If that didn't work, I'd follow up with, "I love you and I don't want to ague over potatoes.  I'm going to step away for a few minutes and we can figure this out later."

If things stayed tense after I came back, I'd switch to, "I'm sorry if how I peel these makes you upset, that was never my intention.  Tell me how to proceed- should I keep peeling potatoes or would you rather do them?"

If that didn't resolve the conflict, I'd say, "You know what, I'm not in the mood for potatoes anyway.  I'll grab something else to eat so we both have time to calm down."  Then I'd get in my car and head for a local restaurant for one of my favorite foods.

What I wouldn't do is argue, defend, or blame- I'd stay until I start to anger, then I'd walk away.  And I would do this for everything, every single time, with very clear boundaries in place.  If you want to talk, I'm here.  If you need help, I'm here for you.  If you want to verbally attack me, I'm walking away and I'll be back when you've calmed down.

[Pook075]

absolutely. I fully understand this now. Years ago I was so confused: she obviously knew something wasn't right which is why medications and therapy were sought. The intent to want to change just wasn't there. And from what I was told about her therapy sessions, all she was told was I was toxic and abusive (given one sided stories with zero context of course). She did admit that her rages and screaming/insults were not ok, but justified that by saying that's how she always argued, and that it was worse in childhood with endless physical altercations. It just bugged me that someone could name the issues one by one and still not change that behavior. Add in excessive amounts of thc edibles daily, and I'm not sure she even knew what was going on most times and just went into fight mode as a default.

Most people probably don't realize this, but 90% of therapy is building enough of a relationship so the therapist/patient can be honest with each other and have tough conversations.  The therapist knows there's mental illness and they know that the blame is likely being unfairly assigned as a coping mechanism. 

So they listen, they offer ways to avoid future conflict, and it's doing the exact same thing as if they walked in and said, "I'm a raving maniac that yells at people all the time."

Who did what is never the problem.  It's how we personally respond afterwards.  BPDs go spiraling with damaging thoughts that implode their closest relationships.  So even when therapists are lied to or hear grossly one-sided arguments, they can still do their jobs and be effective by focusing on the solutions and building trust.

[Me88]

It's really about learning to communicate in a counter-intuitive way.  In your scenario, I'd say:

"I'm open to learning from you- show me your way to peel potatoes."

If that didn't work, I'd follow up with, "I love you and I don't want to ague over potatoes.  I'm going to step away for a few minutes and we can figure this out later."

If things stayed tense after I came back, I'd switch to, "I'm sorry if how I peel these makes you upset, that was never my intention.  Tell me how to proceed- should I keep peeling potatoes or would you rather do them?"

If that didn't resolve the conflict, I'd say, "You know what, I'm not in the mood for potatoes anyway.  I'll grab something else to eat so we both have time to calm down."  Then I'd get in my car and head for a local restaurant for one of my favorite foods.

What I wouldn't do is argue, defend, or blame- I'd stay until I start to anger, then I'd walk away.  And I would do this for everything, every single time, with very clear boundaries in place.  If you want to talk, I'm here.  If you need help, I'm here for you.  If you want to verbally attack me, I'm walking away and I'll be back when you've calmed down.

These things never worked for me. I too would apologize for random things like that, but my apology was never good enough. Showing that I was dismissing her feelings or didn't care enough to actually reflect on what I've done wrong. And the other problem was, there were times we could have a conversation where I'd apologize for hurting her feelings and I would do as she pleased, and in that immediate moment it was fine. Then the next time a similar situation came up, I'd default to what she said her preference was...and that time, NO GOOD. Moving goal posts.

If I walked away from arguments, 95% of the time it meant to her that I didn't care about our relationship or fighting for it. Or I lacked accountability. Or I was just a horrible human. It was like she needed those hours of yelling and insulting to blow off steam. Every argument literally blew up into a make or break for the relationship.

Every single thing was criticized and if I ever got offended and stood up for myself, it was a recipe for disaster. I never felt so incompetent in my life. I really started believing I was just some failure over the most miniscule things.