Can any treatment stop an abusive spouse from being a bully?

[SuperDaddy]

Hi there. My question is about success stories, but it focuses on a specific aspect.

Imagine a that wife fills almost the full DSM checklist for BPD, except that she does not do self-harm. Instead, she opts to do husband-harm. Well, he never bends, and that's why the relationship stands, but she keeps trying. It's trauma-based. No drug use, healthy eating and aided with many good supplements such as Omega-3 and D3.

A typical case in which the paranoid thoughts can be directly linked to childhood traumas. She has a narcissist father and she was his golden daughter who couldn't really meet up with his expectations. Also, he would force her to watch him spank her mother, and even wake her up just to watch it again. As you might expect, she projects her deep anger towards men to her intimate partners, but does that in way that effectively turns her into a real bully. That's it's not only when she gets triggered. She can do provocations because of insecurity, trying to take men out of their balance, just to proove herself that they are somewhat like her father. Or, after a trigger, she may lash out for days based on a self-feeding relentless anger.

The problem is that she never understands that this is entirely her issue. She truly believes that all of her partners deserved it. Unable to recognize how toxic she is, she instead thinks "the relationships" were toxic, always blaming them and rarely herself. After beating her husband for the first time, she asked him if their relationship became toxic, even though he had not retaliated anything.

What's the prognostic of this case? Is there any treatment that can change this pattern, or is it a lost case since she can't see herself as the source of her problems? Would it be the case of EMDR, DBT, or something else? In case this is curable, what would be a realistic timeline for recovery (stop being a bully)?

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[Notwendy]

[quote author=SuperDaddy link=topic=3061474.msg13232237#msg13232237 date=1766806346

The problem is that she never understands that this is entirely her issue. She truly believes that all of her partners deserved it.

What's the prognostic of this case? Is there any treatment that can change this pattern, or is it a lost case since she can't see herself as the source of her problems? Would it be the case of EMDR, DBT, or something else? In case this is curable, what would be a realistic timeline for recovery (stop being a bully)?
[/quote]

EMDR is known to be effective for past trauma. However, for any therapy to be effective, the person has to be motivated to work with the therapist and to recognize it's their own trauma. I don't know of any way to "make" someone see their own trauma- and dissociating from it is one way a person coped with this as a child and still as an adult.

EMDR also requires some preparation between therapist and client. They wouldn't want to have the client recall a trauma without already working with them to develop ways to cope. But from what I know, (and this is a lay board- so we only know our own experiences with pwBPD) it's necessary that the client is motivated to work on their own trauma for this.

[mitochondrium]

Hello,

I agree with Notwendy, for therapy treatment to have any effect the person must have at least some insight in their problems.
With my boyfriend eith traits of bpd I found that antidepressants helped him to be more in controll of his emotions = less dysregulation. However this bully kind of talk did not go away completley, it is the way he talks to some extent (not only to me). I think what helped the most were my boundaries, bully talk escalates way less often than it used to. It took around 2-3 years of my consistency with setting this boundaries. I called him out when it was too much, said that I will not talk to him when he is accusing me so much etc. and also a lot if explaining when he was regulated or when he was not totally dysregulated but could grasp that I am really angry and that I will not tolerate this for real. There was a lot of fighting back, wanting to be entiteled to this kind of behaviour, accusing me to causing this behaviour, wanting me to controll his feelings etc., which still happens sometimes, but way less often. It is hard to endure the massive pushbacks we experienc from people with bpd, but it is the only way to more bearable life.

[SuperDaddy]

Thanks for the answers.

@mitochondrium, the situation I describe is a bit different (in a bad sense).

1) The first difference is that this is not a being-harsh-with-everyone kind of attitude. It is surgically directed to the one that replaces her father (the husband). For no one else she displays such kind of hatred. This was demonstrated a few years by Ayahuasca. This experience exposes what's beneath the ego and reveals the person's inner desires/issues. For her, it resulted in a hallucination in which she saw her father in place of her new partner (now husband). She also did many body struggle during the night like a kid and said things like "I'll kill you", many times. I think that was already a clear proof that she is projecting her traumas, but somehow she still doesn't see it that way. She says that it's not her father that is doing the things in her relationship (things usually related to money and kids), so she just stands her ground in blaming the husband.

2) I understand that holding to your boundaries can be psychologically difficult, especially when you love this person and when you where brought up "running on empty" (this is a book reference). And it can take some time to mature and heal all scars from the past before one can endure a relationship with BPD partner. And once that's done, imposing boundaries with a boyfriend/girlfriend that lives apart becomes viable. However, there are a few factors that can enter the game and make it too hard to sustain real boundaries or to change the current dynamics:

• You are living in with your BPD partner, so you'll always be an available target.
• You work from home, so you're a target 24h per day.
• You have young kids which you must protect and take care, including a breastfeeding baby and kids from previous relationship.
• You are in country that strongly favours the other sex (the woman) in courts in regards to domestic violence, kids custody and pensions.
• You are short in cash to move out anyway, and a bit too exhausted/unmotivated to work more and make more money.

Though I don't want to say it's impossible. It's just much harder than what you described. Boundaries could be an effective form of containing the behavior and preventing it from scaling up. But would good boundaries motivate the partner to seek for treatment? Probably not, right?

So maybe I have made the wrong question here. Maybe I should be asking about motivation to change and accountability instead. That shall be another post.

[SuperDaddy]

@Notwendy, yes EMDR certainly requires the patient to recognize the trauma and have the intent of healing from it. That's not a problem. Currently, she is treating an adult trauma that involves sexual assault, after which she developed a specific phobia that is very debilitating.

Once she overcomes that adult trauma, she would then try to touch her deeper childhood traumas. She had tried hypnotherapy as well. The problem is that she tends to stray away from therapy because of the side effects are too strong. Her EMDR therapist instructed her to use music and meditation. Yet, when the therapist when full force, using an apparatus, she said the after-hours were too painful, so she abandoned the therapy for a few months, but is now returning.

Do you think she would need to learn skills from DBT first, to then use in post-EMDR sessions? Or would she just need a stronger motivator force?

[SuperDaddy]

Please excuse my previous grammar errors.

One more info...

She does recognize that she has serious issues and even makes jokes about being too crazy (too many disorders). However, the perception of being a victim is much stronger and overrules the self-perception, which is not taken seriously (therefore the jokes).

At times, when she wants to reconnect, she suddenly understands that the things she says and does are inadequate, and she actually feels guilty. But the guilt is short-lived. Most of the times, though, she claims that this type of situation occurs with every couple. I thought it could be a reference she got from her parents, but she does have a better reference from her grandparents. So it's more about an attempt to rationalize/normalize her own abusive behavior.

[Notwendy]

I think these are questions best answered by a therapist who has experience using EMDR and DBT.

Even with experience- how a person responds to therapy is individual. They can't predict a certain result for an individual.

From what you have posted - it looks like your wife has tried EMDR, and is still willing to try it, but it would be her therapist who could answer your questions about her response to it, if your wife has given consent to the therapist to speak to you.

Understandable that this is difficult as you want to help her but she's autonomous in therapy and is going to respond, or not respond, in her own way.

I agree with mitochondrium in that- the aspect of this that we can control is our own boundaries to being bullied when the pwBPD is dissociating- understandbly difficult in your situation- with small children, finances to consider and living in the same house.

As to motivating your wife- I don't think we can control someone else's feelings or motivation. but what you can do on your part is to consider if any of your behaviors are enabling ones. Hopefully posters will share their experiences on this topic too.

[mitochondrium]

Hi,

maybe I was not clear enough, with “it is the way he talks to some extent (not only to me)”, I did not mean that that is all that happens/happened. The real rage and accusations are also surgically just pointed to me. Which gives him thoughts that I am the problem, since he has no problems with other people in his life. But that is how bpd works, it is the most intensively targetes at the closest person. I too live with my partner for 5 years, since we moved in together boundaries became even more important and ofcorse harder to keep in place. I agree with you that your situation is harder than mine, my bf luckily has less bpd traits, he also have never thretened me to kill me. IMHO that is a real life threat and police should deal with it - that would also put a boundary strongly in place and also show the children such behaviour is not tolerated.
I understand your question and the need to get your wife in appropriate treatment. I had the most succes when my bf was really threatened and scared I would leave for real, at that time he was ready to commit to treatment. Maybe this was also some kind of boundary - I was letting him know, I was not going to stay with him, if he is not getting into treatment and I really ment it.

[ForeverDad]

From our collective experience here, it can be concluded that no matter who your spouse was married to, you or someone else, she would still have focused her dysfunctional outbursts on her partner.  It's not you.  Just about any partner would trigger her.  It's part of the disorder.

Is she aware of DBT or CBT therapies?  If not, then don't tell her since a typical reaction is to reject "labels".  Some therapist don't even mention a name for their sessions so they can proceed without too much drama.  But as already remarked, this would be an uphill (mythical Sisyphus) struggle for years with no guarantee of eventual success.

My ex and I had been married for over a decade and though it was slowly becoming problematic, our marriage was manageable... until we had a child.  (She had an abusive stepfather and was greatly triggered when she saw I had become a father...)  Once I contacted the legal systems - police for a "family dispute" - my marriage had crossed a line from which it didn't survive.  We separated and soon were divorcing.   She filed numerous allegations against me during the separation, the two year divorce and even for another year or so after the final decree.  Even after they stopped she was still playing games with exchanges and disparaging me.  Now that our son is an adult, things are less conflictual... as long as I don't trigger her.

I realized our marriage was irreparable when, in addition to the ranting, raging and disparaging, she was threatening to disappear with our child.

My family court's perspective was to ignore mental health issues.  It treated us as we were and didn't try to fix us.  It set basic boundaries for behavior, court orders.  It was perfect but to some extent it limited the poor behaviors.

A troubling aspect of the abusive behavior is that the children are exposed to it, not just once or twice, but regularly.  They're not living in a reasonably normal home environment.  They won''t know what is real normalcy.  The example they're seeing in their parents' relationship can sabotage them almost unwittingly when they grow up and seek their own adult relationships.  They might choose someone like dad (forever struggling) or someone like mom (regularly causing stress and discord).

There's no simple solution here but it would be a great idea for you and the children to seek counseling in future years to deal with predictable issues that will arise.  And even young children can benefit from "play" therapy.

[SuperDaddy]

Ok, I tried to avoid it, but you still figured out that I'm the aforementioned unfortunate husband. 

@Notwendy,

From what you have posted - it looks like your wife has tried EMDR and is still willing to try it, but it would be her therapist who could answer your questions about her response to it, if your wife has given consent to the therapist to speak to you.

She always gives me this consent, but I have learned that it's a bad idea. Because then she begins to think that the therapist is on my side and sees this as a dispute. And then she keeps bringing up the therapist's name and lots of fake hypothetical opinions against me to the drama, just like she does regarding her parents. The strategy that works is that I send the message to her, and she forwards the message to the therapist if she feels comfortable. So I can communicate that she is having a hard time after therapy and may need more skills. That's a one-way communication that does not include questions, but it should be enough.

I agree with mitochondrium in that- the aspect of this that we can control is our own boundaries to being bullied when the pwBPD is dissociating- understandbly difficult in your situation- with small children, finances to consider and living in the same house.

I disagree with this simplistic view. Because that would make the intimate partner useless and inert. I know the partner can't assume the responsibility of solving her problems, but without any sort of support/guidance, the BPD partner can't progress either.

For instance, I have to give her the vitamins on hand and on time, just after dinner/lunch; otherwise, she just forgets. And I have to wait until she takes all of them; otherwise, again, she forgets. She is not taking them because she wants to improve but because she likes to be taken care of and doesn't want to disappoint me (if she is in a good mood). And now I'm searching for a good DBT therapist, because she is not very good with that.

As to motivating your wife- I don't think we can control someone else's feelings or motivation. but what you can do on your part is to consider if any of your behaviors are enabling ones.

I'm not an enabler because I am on the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm too rigid. However, at times she can confuse my protectiveness with neediness. However, there is one thing I do that works as a kind of enablement: the simple fact of still living together and allowing the relationship to return to its baseline of closeness. This is what I got from AI's opinion:

> Staying because of finances and child safety is not enabling in itself, but the repeated cycle where she lashes out and later “gets you back” without lasting consequences likely blunts the impact of loss and therefore reduces learning from consequences.

> The repeated pattern where severe dysregulation is followed by your continued physical presence and eventual near-baseline restoration appears to have extinguished the fear of permanent loss.

> The enabling element is not affection, reassurance, or bending, but the absence of an irreversible consequence.

> The learning signal that is missing is not emotional but existential: she has learned that dysregulation does not change your long-term decisions, but also that it does not terminate the bond.

[SuperDaddy]

@mitochondrium ,

I had the most succes when my bf was really threatened and scared I would leave for real, at that time he was ready to commit to treatment. Maybe this was also some kind of boundary - I was letting him know, I was not going to stay with him, if he is not getting into treatment and I really ment it.

Yes, that's the point. I wish I still had this power. Need to think about that, but it's another topic.

[SuperDaddy]

@ForeverDad, nice name ! 

From our collective experience here, it can be concluded that no matter who your spouse was married to, you or someone else, she would still have focused her dysfunctional outbursts on her partner.  It's not you.  Just about any partner would trigger her.  It's part of the disorder.

Yes, I'm clear about that, and I know that their previous partners did a much worse job and were much more affected. Two of them used to spank her, and the third one would cry but eventually tried to counterattack.

Btw, in all of my three relationships in which they got pregnant, things were also manageable before that but got much worse after labor and sometimes even during pregnancy. Although there are different psychological explanations for that, like the one you provided, which might be valid, I believe the main reason for that might be biological. First, the Omega-3 that was removed from the mother's brain to the baby's brain, the other nutrients as well, and the change in hormones. This time I'm putting in more effort in giving her supplements, and it clearly helps, to some extent. When the body is severely lacking, much higher dosages are needed.

Is she aware of DBT or CBT therapies?

Yes, she has already tried other CBT therapies in the past, which didn't work very well for her, and recently began pushing on the idea of trying DBT, and she watched some videos about it and liked it. She already recognizes that BPD is what affects her and is ok with that. Because when I explained it all to her, she could see that I was being very sincere. I said that despite knowing a lot about this disorder, it took me years to admit to myself that she also had this disorder, and I was sad about that because I didn't want her to have it because I loved her.

In regard to kids, I think they are doing kind of well. I do explain that this is not normal, and they also see many good moments. The bad reference exists, but hopefully there is not a compulsion for diving into it, because I never allow them to get involved and encourage them to play video games while she is screaming. And when she is storming too much and breaking stuff, I lock myself with them in the room and turn on music. I think they absorb my calmness.

[Notwendy]

I had the most succes when my bf was really threatened and scared I would leave for real, at that time he was ready to commit to treatment. Maybe this was also some kind of boundary - I was letting him know, I was not going to stay with him, if he is not getting into treatment and I really ment it.

I wanted to comment on this because, the reason this was effective was because it wasn't done for purpose of motivating the BPD partner- it was a sincere, feeling done with the disorder, and being ready to leave, actually meaning it.

Making any threat- without the intention to follow through- as a means to motivate or scare a partner is adding to the dysfunction. It can also damage the relationship and be diffucult to repair if it's done for this reason.

These relationships involve both partners. Each can be afraid of losing the relationship. If the partner without BPD doesn't want to lose the relationship - they may be more apt to walking on eggshells and have difficulty holding boundaries due to not wanting to upset their BPD partner.

When someone holds a boundary that the BPD partner doesn't want - the BPD partner then has a choice- respect the boundary or risk losing the relationship. This allows for them to make the decision. It's a scary one, as the non BPD partner may fear this risk- but it opens the door to the possibility of change, or the BPD partner may choose to leave the relationship. Sometimes when the non partner feels they can't continue, they have less fear of this, and so may be able to hold the boundary and let them make the choice. When someone makes their own choices- that is accountability.

There's a push pull to these relationships. Pushing too far, if the other person pulls, this can activate a fear of abandonment. This fear can be a motivator but a temporary one, as soon as the relationship gets back to "normal" the motivation is gone. There's a cyclic pattern to abusive relationships- the rage, the possible remorse, the trying again. It isn't just with romantic ones as it can involve other family members too.

If someone "pulls" as a way of getting the other person to respond- that is being manipulative too. It's engaging in the disordered dynamics and it causes damage to it. If a person is truly at their end point of tolerance, this then is acting authentically. The pwBPD will then make their own choices with that.

[Notwendy]

@Notwendy,

She always gives me this consent, but I have learned that it's a bad idea. Because then she begins to think that the therapist is on my side and sees this as a dispute. And then she keeps bringing up the therapist's name and lots of fake hypothetical opinions against me to the drama, just like she does regarding her parents. The strategy that works is that I send the message to her, and she forwards the message to the therapist if she feels comfortable. So I can communicate that she is having a hard time after therapy and may need more skills. That's a one-way communication that does not include questions, but it should be enough.

I agree with this, as it would appear to her that you and the T are "ganging up on her". It's that- we are a lay board- not therapists and so don't have the range of experience or are in the position to address your wife's progress or lack of it with the T.

[Notwendy]

I disagree with this simplistic view. Because that would make the intimate partner useless and inert. I know the partner can't assume the responsibility of solving her problems, but without any sort of support/guidance, the BPD partner can't progress either.

For instance, I have to give her the vitamins on hand and on time, just after dinner/lunch; otherwise, she just forgets. And I have to wait until she takes all of them; otherwise, again, she forgets. She is not taking them because she wants to improve but because she likes to be taken care of and doesn't want to disappoint me (if she is in a good mood). And now I'm searching for a good DBT therapist, because she is not very good with that.

I'm not an enabler because I am on the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm too rigid. However, at times she can confuse my protectiveness with neediness. However, there is one thing I do that works as a kind of enablement: the simple fact of still living together and allowing the relationship to return to its baseline of closeness. This is what I got from AI's opinion:

> Staying because of finances and child safety is not enabling in itself, but the repeated cycle where she lashes out and later “gets you back” without lasting consequences likely blunts the impact of loss and therefore reduces learning from consequences.

> The repeated pattern where severe dysregulation is followed by your continued physical presence and eventual near-baseline restoration appears to have extinguished the fear of permanent loss.

> The enabling element is not affection, reassurance, or bending, but the absence of an irreversible consequence.

> The learning signal that is missing is not emotional but existential: she has learned that dysregulation does not change your long-term decisions, but also that it does not terminate the bond.

This makes sense- the staying and being supportive can in a way be enabling even if it isn't intentional.

How unable a pwBPD is to help themselves and be responsible for their behavior can vary- and is sometimes hard to discern. I think the reminder to take vitamins is one of these situations. If she doesn't take her vitamins and feels worse, her behavior could be worse, and this makes the situation harder for all of you. However, most adults are responsible for taking their own vitamins.

I am not being critical of this situation, as my BPD mother could not function on her own and in a sense- we all stepped in to help with this role. However, too much of this was detrimental to her own sense of self worth and accomplishment. She also wanted to be taken care of and have people do things for her that she could do herself- it met an emotional need of hers.

BPD mother had therapy off and on- but still- the therapy was between her and the therapist. Therapy didn't seem to have an affect on her. I don't know if she did EMDR or DBT. BPD wasn't a known entity in her younger years and EMDR/DBT were not mainstream practices, so I don't know if her outcome would be different if they were.

The idea of holding a boundary may sound simplistic but it's an actual truth that we can not control another person's thoughts and feelings. We can control another person in other ways but they will always have their own thoughts, feelings. As per my other post- you can motivate your partner if she's scared, but external motivation doesn't always produce results in therapy. This is a difficult situation, understandably.

[mitochondrium]

I wanted to comment on this because, the reason this was effective was because it wasn't done for purpose of motivating the BPD partner- it was a sincere, feeling done with the disorder, and being ready to leave, actually meaning it.

Making any threat- without the intention to follow through- as a means to motivate or scare a partner is adding to the dysfunction. It can also damage the relationship and be diffucult to repair if it's done for this reason.

These relationships involve both partners. Each can be afraid of losing the relationship. If the partner without BPD doesn't want to lose the relationship - they may be more apt to walking on eggshells and have difficulty holding boundaries due to not wanting to upset their BPD partner.

When someone holds a boundary that the BPD partner doesn't want - the BPD partner then has a choice- respect the boundary or risk losing the relationship. This allows for them to make the decision. It's a scary one, as the non BPD partner may fear this risk- but it opens the door to the possibility of change, or the BPD partner may choose to leave the relationship. Sometimes when the non partner feels they can't continue, they have less fear of this, and so may be able to hold the boundary and let them make the choice. When someone makes their own choices- that is accountability.

There's a push pull to these relationships. Pushing too far, if the other person pulls, this can activate a fear of abandonment. This fear can be a motivator but a temporary one, as soon as the relationship gets back to "normal" the motivation is gone. There's a cyclic pattern to abusive relationships- the rage, the possible remorse, the trying again. It isn't just with romantic ones as it can involve other family members too.

If someone "pulls" as a way of getting the other person to respond- that is being manipulative too. It's engaging in the disordered dynamics and it causes damage to it. If a person is truly at their end point of tolerance, this then is acting authentically. The pwBPD will then make their own choices with that.

Notwendy, very nicely explained, that is exactly what I meant. At that point I couldnt cary on with the relationship as it was any more, him getting in the treatment was a boundary for me and I was taking a risk he would say no and leave and I would have been ok with that too.

However, later my action brought what you are writing about, after some time my bf felt like a victim in retrospective and it took some time for him to get over my action. But I kept firmly enforcing this hard won boundary. Ofcorse almost breaking up is hard for a relationship. Nevertheless I whould have done it again, I could not be with him, if he was not getting treatment.

[SuperDaddy]

Yes @Notwendy , you gave an excellent explanation of the effect of authentic versus manipulative threats.

But I have two important observations:

1) This is still quite similar to the push-pull cycle, though initiated by the Non. Here is why:

 - Push: Most likely, the pwBPD won't comply just because you said it. They'll not even make their decision until you actually retreat and they really feel it.

 - Pull: Then, if your intention is to reapproximate as they comply, you'll be ready to pull them back in case they comply. If the opportunity is available and their feelings of love are solid, then they are likely to comply. Then both will repair it together.

So the trick is not to avoid breakups (push-pull) altogether but instead to try to make it work. Most frequently, those instances are damaging rather than constructive. To take the juice from it, you must make sure that (a) you keep in control of your feelings during the process (not just give in to avoid pain) and (b) that every instance of push-pull leads to some kind of meaningful progress (for both, but especially for the pwBPD).

2) The real world is still more complex than the authentic versus manipulative model. The fact that someone did not follow through does not necessarily mean that they didn't mean it. Frequently, the effective change of the pwBPD may lead them to simply change their emotions and make them leave behind the idea of breaking up, because they get deceived by the temporary change. Or they may have lacked resources to follow through (time, money, etc.).