Can any treatment stop an abusive spouse from being a bully?

[SuperDaddy]

Hi there. My question is about success stories, but it focuses on a specific aspect.

Imagine a that wife fills almost the full DSM checklist for BPD, except that she does not do self-harm. Instead, she opts to do husband-harm. Well, he never bends, and that's why the relationship stands, but she keeps trying. It's trauma-based. No drug use, healthy eating and aided with many good supplements such as Omega-3 and D3.

A typical case in which the paranoid thoughts can be directly linked to childhood traumas. She has a narcissist father and she was his golden daughter who couldn't really meet up with his expectations. Also, he would force her to watch him spank her mother, and even wake her up just to watch it again. As you might expect, she projects her deep anger towards men to her intimate partners, but does that in way that effectively turns her into a real bully. That's it's not only when she gets triggered. She can do provocations because of insecurity, trying to take men out of their balance, just to proove herself that they are somewhat like her father. Or, after a trigger, she may lash out for days based on a self-feeding relentless anger.

The problem is that she never understands that this is entirely her issue. She truly believes that all of her partners deserved it. Unable to recognize how toxic she is, she instead thinks "the relationships" were toxic, always blaming them and rarely herself. After beating her husband for the first time, she asked him if their relationship became toxic, even though he had not retaliated anything.

What's the prognostic of this case? Is there any treatment that can change this pattern, or is it a lost case since she can't see herself as the source of her problems? Would it be the case of EMDR, DBT, or something else? In case this is curable, what would be a realistic timeline for recovery (stop being a bully)?

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[Notwendy]

[quote author=SuperDaddy link=topic=3061474.msg13232237#msg13232237 date=1766806346

The problem is that she never understands that this is entirely her issue. She truly believes that all of her partners deserved it.

What's the prognostic of this case? Is there any treatment that can change this pattern, or is it a lost case since she can't see herself as the source of her problems? Would it be the case of EMDR, DBT, or something else? In case this is curable, what would be a realistic timeline for recovery (stop being a bully)?
[/quote]

EMDR is known to be effective for past trauma. However, for any therapy to be effective, the person has to be motivated to work with the therapist and to recognize it's their own trauma. I don't know of any way to "make" someone see their own trauma- and dissociating from it is one way a person coped with this as a child and still as an adult.

EMDR also requires some preparation between therapist and client. They wouldn't want to have the client recall a trauma without already working with them to develop ways to cope. But from what I know, (and this is a lay board- so we only know our own experiences with pwBPD) it's necessary that the client is motivated to work on their own trauma for this.

[mitochondrium]

Hello,

I agree with Notwendy, for therapy treatment to have any effect the person must have at least some insight in their problems.
With my boyfriend eith traits of bpd I found that antidepressants helped him to be more in controll of his emotions = less dysregulation. However this bully kind of talk did not go away completley, it is the way he talks to some extent (not only to me). I think what helped the most were my boundaries, bully talk escalates way less often than it used to. It took around 2-3 years of my consistency with setting this boundaries. I called him out when it was too much, said that I will not talk to him when he is accusing me so much etc. and also a lot if explaining when he was regulated or when he was not totally dysregulated but could grasp that I am really angry and that I will not tolerate this for real. There was a lot of fighting back, wanting to be entiteled to this kind of behaviour, accusing me to causing this behaviour, wanting me to controll his feelings etc., which still happens sometimes, but way less often. It is hard to endure the massive pushbacks we experienc from people with bpd, but it is the only way to more bearable life.

[SuperDaddy]

Thanks for the answers.

@mitochondrium, the situation I describe is a bit different (in a bad sense).

1) The first difference is that this is not a being-harsh-with-everyone kind of attitude. It is surgically directed to the one that replaces her father (the husband). For no one else she displays such kind of hatred. This was demonstrated a few years by Ayahuasca. This experience exposes what's beneath the ego and reveals the person's inner desires/issues. For her, it resulted in a hallucination in which she saw her father in place of her new partner (now husband). She also did many body struggle during the night like a kid and said things like "I'll kill you", many times. I think that was already a clear proof that she is projecting her traumas, but somehow she still doesn't see it that way. She says that it's not her father that is doing the things in her relationship (things usually related to money and kids), so she just stands her ground in blaming the husband.

2) I understand that holding to your boundaries can be psychologically difficult, especially when you love this person and when you where brought up "running on empty" (this is a book reference). And it can take some time to mature and heal all scars from the past before one can endure a relationship with BPD partner. And once that's done, imposing boundaries with a boyfriend/girlfriend that lives apart becomes viable. However, there are a few factors that can enter the game and make it too hard to sustain real boundaries or to change the current dynamics:

• You are living in with your BPD partner, so you'll always be an available target.
• You work from home, so you're a target 24h per day.
• You have young kids which you must protect and take care, including a breastfeeding baby and kids from previous relationship.
• You are in country that strongly favours the other sex (the woman) in courts in regards to domestic violence, kids custody and pensions.
• You are short in cash to move out anyway, and a bit too exhausted/unmotivated to work more and make more money.

Though I don't want to say it's impossible. It's just much harder than what you described. Boundaries could be an effective form of containing the behavior and preventing it from scaling up. But would good boundaries motivate the partner to seek for treatment? Probably not, right?

So maybe I have made the wrong question here. Maybe I should be asking about motivation to change and accountability instead. That shall be another post.

[SuperDaddy]

@Notwendy, yes EMDR certainly requires the patient to recognize the trauma and have the intent of healing from it. That's not a problem. Currently, she is treating an adult trauma that involves sexual assault, after which she developed a specific phobia that is very debilitating.

Once she overcomes that adult trauma, she would then try to touch her deeper childhood traumas. She had tried hypnotherapy as well. The problem is that she tends to stray away from therapy because of the side effects are too strong. Her EMDR therapist instructed her to use music and meditation. Yet, when the therapist when full force, using an apparatus, she said the after-hours were too painful, so she abandoned the therapy for a few months, but is now returning.

Do you think she would need to learn skills from DBT first, to then use in post-EMDR sessions? Or would she just need a stronger motivator force?

[SuperDaddy]

Please excuse my previous grammar errors.

One more info...

She does recognize that she has serious issues and even makes jokes about being too crazy (too many disorders). However, the perception of being a victim is much stronger and overrules the self-perception, which is not taken seriously (therefore the jokes).

At times, when she wants to reconnect, she suddenly understands that the things she says and does are inadequate, and she actually feels guilty. But the guilt is short-lived. Most of the times, though, she claims that this type of situation occurs with every couple. I thought it could be a reference she got from her parents, but she does have a better reference from her grandparents. So it's more about an attempt to rationalize/normalize her own abusive behavior.

[Notwendy]

I think these are questions best answered by a therapist who has experience using EMDR and DBT.

Even with experience- how a person responds to therapy is individual. They can't predict a certain result for an individual.

From what you have posted - it looks like your wife has tried EMDR, and is still willing to try it, but it would be her therapist who could answer your questions about her response to it, if your wife has given consent to the therapist to speak to you.

Understandable that this is difficult as you want to help her but she's autonomous in therapy and is going to respond, or not respond, in her own way.

I agree with mitochondrium in that- the aspect of this that we can control is our own boundaries to being bullied when the pwBPD is dissociating- understandbly difficult in your situation- with small children, finances to consider and living in the same house.

As to motivating your wife- I don't think we can control someone else's feelings or motivation. but what you can do on your part is to consider if any of your behaviors are enabling ones. Hopefully posters will share their experiences on this topic too.

[mitochondrium]

Hi,

maybe I was not clear enough, with “it is the way he talks to some extent (not only to me)”, I did not mean that that is all that happens/happened. The real rage and accusations are also surgically just pointed to me. Which gives him thoughts that I am the problem, since he has no problems with other people in his life. But that is how bpd works, it is the most intensively targetes at the closest person. I too live with my partner for 5 years, since we moved in together boundaries became even more important and ofcorse harder to keep in place. I agree with you that your situation is harder than mine, my bf luckily has less bpd traits, he also have never thretened me to kill me. IMHO that is a real life threat and police should deal with it - that would also put a boundary strongly in place and also show the children such behaviour is not tolerated.
I understand your question and the need to get your wife in appropriate treatment. I had the most succes when my bf was really threatened and scared I would leave for real, at that time he was ready to commit to treatment. Maybe this was also some kind of boundary - I was letting him know, I was not going to stay with him, if he is not getting into treatment and I really ment it.

[ForeverDad]

From our collective experience here, it can be concluded that no matter who your spouse was married to, you or someone else, she would still have focused her dysfunctional outbursts on her partner.  It's not you.  Just about any partner would trigger her.  It's part of the disorder.

Is she aware of DBT or CBT therapies?  If not, then don't tell her since a typical reaction is to reject "labels".  Some therapist don't even mention a name for their sessions so they can proceed without too much drama.  But as already remarked, this would be an uphill (mythical Sisyphus) struggle for years with no guarantee of eventual success.

My ex and I had been married for over a decade and though it was slowly becoming problematic, our marriage was manageable... until we had a child.  (She had an abusive stepfather and was greatly triggered when she saw I had become a father...)  Once I contacted the legal systems - police for a "family dispute" - my marriage had crossed a line from which it didn't survive.  We separated and soon were divorcing.   She filed numerous allegations against me during the separation, the two year divorce and even for another year or so after the final decree.  Even after they stopped she was still playing games with exchanges and disparaging me.  Now that our son is an adult, things are less conflictual... as long as I don't trigger her.

I realized our marriage was irreparable when, in addition to the ranting, raging and disparaging, she was threatening to disappear with our child.

My family court's perspective was to ignore mental health issues.  It treated us as we were and didn't try to fix us.  It set basic boundaries for behavior, court orders.  It was perfect but to some extent it limited the poor behaviors.

A troubling aspect of the abusive behavior is that the children are exposed to it, not just once or twice, but regularly.  They're not living in a reasonably normal home environment.  They won''t know what is real normalcy.  The example they're seeing in their parents' relationship can sabotage them almost unwittingly when they grow up and seek their own adult relationships.  They might choose someone like dad (forever struggling) or someone like mom (regularly causing stress and discord).

There's no simple solution here but it would be a great idea for you and the children to seek counseling in future years to deal with predictable issues that will arise.  And even young children can benefit from "play" therapy.

[SuperDaddy]

Ok, I tried to avoid it, but you still figured out that I'm the aforementioned unfortunate husband. 

@Notwendy,

From what you have posted - it looks like your wife has tried EMDR and is still willing to try it, but it would be her therapist who could answer your questions about her response to it, if your wife has given consent to the therapist to speak to you.

She always gives me this consent, but I have learned that it's a bad idea. Because then she begins to think that the therapist is on my side and sees this as a dispute. And then she keeps bringing up the therapist's name and lots of fake hypothetical opinions against me to the drama, just like she does regarding her parents. The strategy that works is that I send the message to her, and she forwards the message to the therapist if she feels comfortable. So I can communicate that she is having a hard time after therapy and may need more skills. That's a one-way communication that does not include questions, but it should be enough.

I agree with mitochondrium in that- the aspect of this that we can control is our own boundaries to being bullied when the pwBPD is dissociating- understandbly difficult in your situation- with small children, finances to consider and living in the same house.

I disagree with this simplistic view. Because that would make the intimate partner useless and inert. I know the partner can't assume the responsibility of solving her problems, but without any sort of support/guidance, the BPD partner can't progress either.

For instance, I have to give her the vitamins on hand and on time, just after dinner/lunch; otherwise, she just forgets. And I have to wait until she takes all of them; otherwise, again, she forgets. She is not taking them because she wants to improve but because she likes to be taken care of and doesn't want to disappoint me (if she is in a good mood). And now I'm searching for a good DBT therapist, because she is not very good with that.

As to motivating your wife- I don't think we can control someone else's feelings or motivation. but what you can do on your part is to consider if any of your behaviors are enabling ones.

I'm not an enabler because I am on the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm too rigid. However, at times she can confuse my protectiveness with neediness. However, there is one thing I do that works as a kind of enablement: the simple fact of still living together and allowing the relationship to return to its baseline of closeness. This is what I got from AI's opinion:

> Staying because of finances and child safety is not enabling in itself, but the repeated cycle where she lashes out and later “gets you back” without lasting consequences likely blunts the impact of loss and therefore reduces learning from consequences.

> The repeated pattern where severe dysregulation is followed by your continued physical presence and eventual near-baseline restoration appears to have extinguished the fear of permanent loss.

> The enabling element is not affection, reassurance, or bending, but the absence of an irreversible consequence.

> The learning signal that is missing is not emotional but existential: she has learned that dysregulation does not change your long-term decisions, but also that it does not terminate the bond.

[SuperDaddy]

@mitochondrium ,

I had the most succes when my bf was really threatened and scared I would leave for real, at that time he was ready to commit to treatment. Maybe this was also some kind of boundary - I was letting him know, I was not going to stay with him, if he is not getting into treatment and I really ment it.

Yes, that's the point. I wish I still had this power. Need to think about that, but it's another topic.

[SuperDaddy]

@ForeverDad, nice name ! 

From our collective experience here, it can be concluded that no matter who your spouse was married to, you or someone else, she would still have focused her dysfunctional outbursts on her partner.  It's not you.  Just about any partner would trigger her.  It's part of the disorder.

Yes, I'm clear about that, and I know that their previous partners did a much worse job and were much more affected. Two of them used to spank her, and the third one would cry but eventually tried to counterattack.

Btw, in all of my three relationships in which they got pregnant, things were also manageable before that but got much worse after labor and sometimes even during pregnancy. Although there are different psychological explanations for that, like the one you provided, which might be valid, I believe the main reason for that might be biological. First, the Omega-3 that was removed from the mother's brain to the baby's brain, the other nutrients as well, and the change in hormones. This time I'm putting in more effort in giving her supplements, and it clearly helps, to some extent. When the body is severely lacking, much higher dosages are needed.

Is she aware of DBT or CBT therapies?

Yes, she has already tried other CBT therapies in the past, which didn't work very well for her, and recently began pushing on the idea of trying DBT, and she watched some videos about it and liked it. She already recognizes that BPD is what affects her and is ok with that. Because when I explained it all to her, she could see that I was being very sincere. I said that despite knowing a lot about this disorder, it took me years to admit to myself that she also had this disorder, and I was sad about that because I didn't want her to have it because I loved her.

In regard to kids, I think they are doing kind of well. I do explain that this is not normal, and they also see many good moments. The bad reference exists, but hopefully there is not a compulsion for diving into it, because I never allow them to get involved and encourage them to play video games while she is screaming. And when she is storming too much and breaking stuff, I lock myself with them in the room and turn on music. I think they absorb my calmness.

[Notwendy]

I had the most succes when my bf was really threatened and scared I would leave for real, at that time he was ready to commit to treatment. Maybe this was also some kind of boundary - I was letting him know, I was not going to stay with him, if he is not getting into treatment and I really ment it.

I wanted to comment on this because, the reason this was effective was because it wasn't done for purpose of motivating the BPD partner- it was a sincere, feeling done with the disorder, and being ready to leave, actually meaning it.

Making any threat- without the intention to follow through- as a means to motivate or scare a partner is adding to the dysfunction. It can also damage the relationship and be diffucult to repair if it's done for this reason.

These relationships involve both partners. Each can be afraid of losing the relationship. If the partner without BPD doesn't want to lose the relationship - they may be more apt to walking on eggshells and have difficulty holding boundaries due to not wanting to upset their BPD partner.

When someone holds a boundary that the BPD partner doesn't want - the BPD partner then has a choice- respect the boundary or risk losing the relationship. This allows for them to make the decision. It's a scary one, as the non BPD partner may fear this risk- but it opens the door to the possibility of change, or the BPD partner may choose to leave the relationship. Sometimes when the non partner feels they can't continue, they have less fear of this, and so may be able to hold the boundary and let them make the choice. When someone makes their own choices- that is accountability.

There's a push pull to these relationships. Pushing too far, if the other person pulls, this can activate a fear of abandonment. This fear can be a motivator but a temporary one, as soon as the relationship gets back to "normal" the motivation is gone. There's a cyclic pattern to abusive relationships- the rage, the possible remorse, the trying again. It isn't just with romantic ones as it can involve other family members too.

If someone "pulls" as a way of getting the other person to respond- that is being manipulative too. It's engaging in the disordered dynamics and it causes damage to it. If a person is truly at their end point of tolerance, this then is acting authentically. The pwBPD will then make their own choices with that.

[Notwendy]

@Notwendy,

She always gives me this consent, but I have learned that it's a bad idea. Because then she begins to think that the therapist is on my side and sees this as a dispute. And then she keeps bringing up the therapist's name and lots of fake hypothetical opinions against me to the drama, just like she does regarding her parents. The strategy that works is that I send the message to her, and she forwards the message to the therapist if she feels comfortable. So I can communicate that she is having a hard time after therapy and may need more skills. That's a one-way communication that does not include questions, but it should be enough.

I agree with this, as it would appear to her that you and the T are "ganging up on her". It's that- we are a lay board- not therapists and so don't have the range of experience or are in the position to address your wife's progress or lack of it with the T.

[Notwendy]

I disagree with this simplistic view. Because that would make the intimate partner useless and inert. I know the partner can't assume the responsibility of solving her problems, but without any sort of support/guidance, the BPD partner can't progress either.

For instance, I have to give her the vitamins on hand and on time, just after dinner/lunch; otherwise, she just forgets. And I have to wait until she takes all of them; otherwise, again, she forgets. She is not taking them because she wants to improve but because she likes to be taken care of and doesn't want to disappoint me (if she is in a good mood). And now I'm searching for a good DBT therapist, because she is not very good with that.

I'm not an enabler because I am on the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm too rigid. However, at times she can confuse my protectiveness with neediness. However, there is one thing I do that works as a kind of enablement: the simple fact of still living together and allowing the relationship to return to its baseline of closeness. This is what I got from AI's opinion:

> Staying because of finances and child safety is not enabling in itself, but the repeated cycle where she lashes out and later “gets you back” without lasting consequences likely blunts the impact of loss and therefore reduces learning from consequences.

> The repeated pattern where severe dysregulation is followed by your continued physical presence and eventual near-baseline restoration appears to have extinguished the fear of permanent loss.

> The enabling element is not affection, reassurance, or bending, but the absence of an irreversible consequence.

> The learning signal that is missing is not emotional but existential: she has learned that dysregulation does not change your long-term decisions, but also that it does not terminate the bond.

This makes sense- the staying and being supportive can in a way be enabling even if it isn't intentional.

How unable a pwBPD is to help themselves and be responsible for their behavior can vary- and is sometimes hard to discern. I think the reminder to take vitamins is one of these situations. If she doesn't take her vitamins and feels worse, her behavior could be worse, and this makes the situation harder for all of you. However, most adults are responsible for taking their own vitamins.

I am not being critical of this situation, as my BPD mother could not function on her own and in a sense- we all stepped in to help with this role. However, too much of this was detrimental to her own sense of self worth and accomplishment. She also wanted to be taken care of and have people do things for her that she could do herself- it met an emotional need of hers.

BPD mother had therapy off and on- but still- the therapy was between her and the therapist. Therapy didn't seem to have an affect on her. I don't know if she did EMDR or DBT. BPD wasn't a known entity in her younger years and EMDR/DBT were not mainstream practices, so I don't know if her outcome would be different if they were.

The idea of holding a boundary may sound simplistic but it's an actual truth that we can not control another person's thoughts and feelings. We can control another person in other ways but they will always have their own thoughts, feelings. As per my other post- you can motivate your partner if she's scared, but external motivation doesn't always produce results in therapy. This is a difficult situation, understandably.

[mitochondrium]

I wanted to comment on this because, the reason this was effective was because it wasn't done for purpose of motivating the BPD partner- it was a sincere, feeling done with the disorder, and being ready to leave, actually meaning it.

Making any threat- without the intention to follow through- as a means to motivate or scare a partner is adding to the dysfunction. It can also damage the relationship and be diffucult to repair if it's done for this reason.

These relationships involve both partners. Each can be afraid of losing the relationship. If the partner without BPD doesn't want to lose the relationship - they may be more apt to walking on eggshells and have difficulty holding boundaries due to not wanting to upset their BPD partner.

When someone holds a boundary that the BPD partner doesn't want - the BPD partner then has a choice- respect the boundary or risk losing the relationship. This allows for them to make the decision. It's a scary one, as the non BPD partner may fear this risk- but it opens the door to the possibility of change, or the BPD partner may choose to leave the relationship. Sometimes when the non partner feels they can't continue, they have less fear of this, and so may be able to hold the boundary and let them make the choice. When someone makes their own choices- that is accountability.

There's a push pull to these relationships. Pushing too far, if the other person pulls, this can activate a fear of abandonment. This fear can be a motivator but a temporary one, as soon as the relationship gets back to "normal" the motivation is gone. There's a cyclic pattern to abusive relationships- the rage, the possible remorse, the trying again. It isn't just with romantic ones as it can involve other family members too.

If someone "pulls" as a way of getting the other person to respond- that is being manipulative too. It's engaging in the disordered dynamics and it causes damage to it. If a person is truly at their end point of tolerance, this then is acting authentically. The pwBPD will then make their own choices with that.

Notwendy, very nicely explained, that is exactly what I meant. At that point I couldnt cary on with the relationship as it was any more, him getting in the treatment was a boundary for me and I was taking a risk he would say no and leave and I would have been ok with that too.

However, later my action brought what you are writing about, after some time my bf felt like a victim in retrospective and it took some time for him to get over my action. But I kept firmly enforcing this hard won boundary. Ofcorse almost breaking up is hard for a relationship. Nevertheless I whould have done it again, I could not be with him, if he was not getting treatment.

[SuperDaddy]

Yes @Notwendy , you gave an excellent explanation of the effect of authentic versus manipulative threats.

But I have two important observations:

1) This is still quite similar to the push-pull cycle, though initiated by the Non. Here is why:

 - Push: Most likely, the pwBPD won't comply just because you said it. They'll not even make their decision until you actually retreat and they really feel it.

 - Pull: Then, if your intention is to reapproximate as they comply, you'll be ready to pull them back in case they comply. If the opportunity is available and their feelings of love are solid, then they are likely to comply. Then both will repair it together.

So the trick is not to avoid breakups (push-pull) altogether but instead to try to make it work. Most frequently, those instances are damaging rather than constructive. To take the juice from it, you must make sure that (a) you keep in control of your feelings during the process (not just give in to avoid pain) and (b) that every instance of push-pull leads to some kind of meaningful progress (for both, but especially for the pwBPD).

2) The real world is still more complex than the authentic versus manipulative model. The fact that someone did not follow through does not necessarily mean that they didn't mean it. Frequently, the effective change of the pwBPD may lead them to simply change their emotions and make them leave behind the idea of breaking up, because they get deceived by the temporary change. Or they may have lacked resources to follow through (time, money, etc.).

[ForeverDad]

I recall when I was trying to manage my ex's behavior.  Despite everything I tried it continued on a downward path.  If we hadn't had a child which fueled her childhood traumas, maybe my marriage could have lasted longer.  In a healthy or normal marriage children are clear blessings, but when there are acting-out PDs in the mix, the children themselves can trigger them just by existing.  Just a couple may work but add kids and that changes the dynamics.  That's what happened to me.

Yes, I know you're trying to "manage" the marriage but unless you get overall cooperation, there's a risk it will continue on a downward trajectory.  Like bailing a leaking boat with a tin can when the holes keep getting bigger and require an ever larger bucket.

So I guess my question is, do you think you're making some progress or at least breaking even on your efforts?

Some people ask, But don't people with BPD traits get better over time, as they get older?  Most here would respond, Maybe, if the other person is working on themselves, their self-oriented perceptions, their overall respect for others, resisting negativity, etc.

[Notwendy]

2) The real world is still more complex than the authentic versus manipulative model. The fact that someone did not follow through does not necessarily mean that they didn't mean it. Frequently, the effective change of the pwBPD may lead them to simply change their emotions and make them leave behind the idea of breaking up, because they get deceived by the temporary change. Or they may have lacked resources to follow through (time, money, etc.).

This is true and humans are complex. It's also true that a spouse with BPD who is financially dependent and doesn't have the life skills to be self supportive may not have the actual choice to leave.

When you made the point about a person becoming useless and inert, even the most impaired humans have their own emotions and thoughts and react to their circumstances in some way. I think it is possible to have some control over another person if they aren't able to manage on their own- but they still will have their own emotions about it. I don't think humans are ever inert, nor do they want to be seen as useless. There is an innate quest for autonomy and they emotionally react to their circumstances.

You have experienced this with toddlers who, while being appropriately dependent on parents and under parental control, will still seek autonomy with what they can control- such as having a meltdown over being given a yellow cup when they wanted a blue cup at meals.

I don't have experience with a romantic relationship. I have observed this with my mother who had BPD. I suspect  from her behavior that she had some significant trauma in her younger years but I don't know what or who may have done it, but she would dissociate and act out on the people closest to her. She was both - paradoxically- dependent and had an emotional need to be cared for while also at times, controlling and verbally/emotionally abusive. In social situations, with people who were not as close to her- she could maintain a social persona, but the closer someone got to her, the more challenging it was to maintain that.

While having people do things for her met an emotional need, she still also wanted autonomy and control, even if it wasn't in her best interest to act on it.  Sometimes this didn't make sense unless seen in the context of her feelings and need for control, even when that control was limited, and also in the context of her being an autonomous human in her own right.

I believe you truly want what is best for your wife and for your family and that is for her to be motivated to work in at her own recovery in therapy. From your posts, it seems you are looking at ways to motivate your wife to get to therapy-  and change her behavior. I do think pwBPD can be externally motivated "hold it together" to some extent (more in relationships that aren't as close as family ones.) But is this indicative of real internal change? I don't know if the outcome of this approach can be predictable. Your wife is her own person.

[Notwendy]

We can't go back and edit but to add- I don't have a long term romantic situation with a person who has the range of behaviors your wife has and a history of severe trauma, but I did observe my parents in one- so I can not speak for how a motivating strategy affects a relationship over the long run. It didn't work well to do this with my BPD mother, but each person is their own individual and will respond in their own way.

I replied to your post about what is effective with this kind of trauma as it is known that EMDR is an approach but also to look at the idea of motivating someone. As much as I wish my mother would have been able to resolve her own trauma- what went on between her and the therapist was still completely up to her and also at her level of abilty to actually deal with it. I hope others in a similar situation to you can post their own experiences that may be helpful to you.

[SuperDaddy]

This is true and humans are complex. It's also true that a spouse with BPD who is financially dependent and doesn't have the life skills to be self-supportive may not have the actual choice to leave.

I would not ask someone who doesn't have the choice to leave to do so. It would not make sense to expect a Yes in such a case. Moreover, I do care for her. She does have her mother's house, where she was living before meeting me, and also has other parents living close who would accommodate her if she wanted. They are all willing to support her, except her father, who has been rejecting her.

Actually, she had already left our home before. After our first son was born, she became overly aggressive, so I began to ask her to leave for a few days. By then, I just wanted her to cool off. However, as soon as she left, she noticed that I was not showing signs of longing for her and, in fact, was being totally cold/distant (because I had been abused so much). So she began to see herself as unworthy and decided to stay there so that she would not be a burden to me anymore. I was ok with her staying there, because I thought the distance could motivate her to improve her attitude.

And yet it helps to withhold the attitude but does not improve the mental health issue. She actually got worse. Her anxiety increased tenfold. Her specific phobia got so bad that I had to use a sleep mask to enter her room and talk to her. And since she was going so fast into a downward spiral, and I knew the reason, I brought her back two months later. I had to keep using the sleep mask here for a while every time I got close to her, but gradually she recovered. There, she also developed depression with suicidal threats, which she wasn't experiencing before, and also recovered from that. Her aggressiveness was kind of contained, but only temporarily.

People tend to seek psychological reasons to explain what they feel, and she is one of those. She believes that the factor contributing to her deterioration and subsequent improvement was my presence. But I'm 100% sure that she is mistaken. It was not me. It was her gluten sensitivity. She was consuming gluten there every day. But here I only buy gluten-free food (because of her). The supplements also helped in her recovery. For instance, benfotiamine was critically important, as it quickly ended her visual/auditory hallucinations. Those hallucinations were a side effect of Ayahuasca and lasted for one year but had gotten worse during the gluten consumption period.

In regard to her autonomy, I believe that I give her as much as possible, but I have to monitor spending because of her impulsiveness and food compulsions. In the beginning of our relationship, I would transfer significant amounts of money to her account, and I wish I could still do that, but unfortunately I have the duty of monitoring it, which is another burden for me to carry.

[SuperDaddy]

Hey @ForeverDad ,

I recall when I was trying to manage my ex's behavior.  Despite everything I tried it continued on a downward path.  If we hadn't had a child which fueled her childhood traumas, maybe my marriage could have lasted longer.  In a healthy or normal marriage children are clear blessings, but when there are acting-out PDs in the mix, the children themselves can trigger them just by existing.  Just a couple may work but add kids and that changes the dynamics.  That's what happened to me.

Like I said, about the same thing happened to me with my first wife and then with my second wife, and now it could be happening with my third wife, but it's not quite. Because now I have understood the nutritional deficiencies behind the postpartum deterioration. Btw, I had 2 kids with each, so I'm the father of 6.

Yes, I know you're trying to "manage" the marriage ...

At this point I'm not trying to manage the marriage anymore. I'm just trying to manage her behavior, her mental health, and the living-together situation.

...but unless you get overall cooperation, there's a risk it will continue on a downward trajectory.  Like bailing a leaking boat with a tin can when the holes keep getting bigger and require an ever larger bucket.

Yes, I do get her cooperation when she is not out of control, in most aspects at least. For instance, I can guarantee you that she will try DBT as soon as I schedule it for her, and she will also continue with EMDR (she is actually going to a session right now).

This relationship has always been the most solid one with the strongest bond, and that makes it somewhat healthier, because there is a lot of mutual trust and taking care of each other, despite all of the bad stuff. For instance, sometimes I get a food-triggered migraine, and as she sees my pain, she begs me to take Tylenol so that I stop suffering. If I get a fever, she has the same reaction as if it were one of our kids and even cries. Previous wives didn't worry that much about me. It may be hard to understand how someone like that can be a bully, but I guess that splitting explains it.

So I guess my question is, do you think you're making some progress or at least breaking even on your efforts?

Yes, she has made progress, at least in her general mental health. After the story that I told above about the sleep masks, I had to rent a wheelchair so that she could get out of home with us. Then I bought a compact electric scooter. And currently she uses just a pair of crutches or just the stroller. Sometimes she walks a few steps without anything to hold. Notice that when she is alone, she can walk perfectly normally, because this is just a specific phobia that resulted from a trauma.

The only thing that hasn't improved is her BPD symptoms, particularly her aggression, which has been getting worse and is too much for me again. But that was expected since she gave labor again a couple of months ago. I told her before labor that her aggressiveness would worsen, and it did.

Part of this is because she does sometimes rage for many days and does not take any supplements during this period. Another reason is that over time she has felt more and more secure about the relationship status. I mean, she does say that it's clear that the relationship won't last for long, but she does not have any imminent fear of losing it immediately.

Some people ask, But don't people with BPD traits get better over time, as they get older?  Most here would respond, Maybe, if the other person is working on themselves, their self-oriented perceptions, their overall respect for others, resisting negativity, etc.

I don't expect that time alone will improve her BPD at all. I actually can't handle it anymore right now. So I need a quick game changer. I have been working on some ideas related to motivation, which I'll post separately.

PS: Many say that pwBPD tend to improve after their 40s, but it's arguable that they don't improve; they just start to have less energy to invest in the drama.

[CC43]

Hi there,

You sound like an extremely compassionate spouse, and that you're really trying to help keep everything on an even keel.  I think you're on the right track emphasizing healthy habits, such as clean eating and taking medications as prescribed, because feeling good and maintaining healthy routines can help reduce stress.  I'd add that regular exercise and regular sleep schedules can help as well.  I think pwBPD don't react well to stressful situations, so maintaining a healthy routine which emphasizes self-care not only increases predictibility, but also has a calming effect.

Even so, pwBPD tend to have negative thinking patterns that can be pernicious.  I think they basically feel traumatized all the time.  It's as if their system is primed for a trauma-like response of fight or flight, even in ordinary situations.  Maybe their adverse childhood experiences "triggered" this trauma response.  But sometimes, I suspect they are just wired that way.  Their brains will ruminate about negative experiences, and sometimes "re-write" history to portray themselves as victims of lifelong traumas.  Sometimes I wonder if the stories of childhood abuse are even true.  While the underlying feelings might be real, I'm just not sure the facts are.  I'm not saying your wife wasn't traumatized, and I'm truly sorry if she was.  I'm just pointing out that the BPD brain might be wired to perceive things as trauma which you or I wouldn't consider trauma.  As a case in point, I think you wrote that your wife describes all her previous relationships as abusive/negative/traumatic.  My guess is that SHE's the abusive one, and that her stories are probably distorted, maybe even projections of her own abusive behavior.  You see, a hallmark of BPD is disordered thinking which worsens under pressure.  My opinion is that the farther back in time your wife goes to dredge up trauma(s), the more fearful she is of the future.  If she's constantly dredging up the past as an explanation/excuse for her current failure(s), she really needs therapy in my opinion.  And my opinion is that "talk therapy" might not be the best for pwBPD, because constantly dwelling on those negative feelings to find better "insights" might only serve to agitate them even more?  I'm thinking DBT/CBT is probably better, i.e. a skills-based approach to manage stress, impulse control, conflict resolution, etc.

You ask, can you stop someone from being a bully?  I don't think you can prevent it, but you can protect yourself.  Once I read that you should stand up to a bully and tell them to Stop.  That might be followed by an explanation (You're hurting me, it's completely inappropriate).  But I think that's the conventional approach which doesn't always work with BPD traits in my opinion, because they are seekers of drama and acting purely out of emotions; they don't respond to logic.  They crave a reaction (typically a fight), even if it's a negative reaction.  I find that the gray rock approach works better--remaining as calm, still and boring as a gray rock, and silently escaping if possible.  If they follow me outside/to another room, I might make a little excuse, like I have to go to the bathroom.  Typically, if I remain calm and give them an "adult time out," they get some time and space to calm themselves down.  Maybe they need a few minutes, or maybe a few hours, but time passing can be an ally.  Basically, my advice is, don't add emotional fuel to the fire, try to remain calm, and hope that some of your calmness will rub off.  Try not to interrupt the time out if you can.

But it sounds to me like your spouse has a lot of anger.  The pwBPD in my life also has unresolved, pent-up anger.  She is  prone to rages and lashes out from time to time.  When she lashes out, I take it as a sure sign that something in her life isn't going as she wanted.  Having said that, since she has gotten therapy for BPD, she has learned to control her rages better.  Nevertheless, the consistent theme is one of victimhood and blame.  She tends to blame others close to her for all her problems.  Why?  Because she can't bear to admit that her own choices are the reason for her distress.  In other words, the "reasons" for her rage are typically projections and deflections from her real problems.  I don't think there's anything I can do to help her when she's in a negative state like that.  I have to wait until she has calmed down and is willing to talk with me.  Then, all I can really do is be reassuring, and maybe try to nudge her in a more positive direction.

However, if your wife is being physically abusive, I think you shouldn't tolerate that, because she takes it as a sign that it's OK, and she's likely to escalate.  I think you call the police if she's violent/destructive to property or making credible threats.

[Notwendy]

Hey @ForeverDad ,

At this point I'm not trying to manage the marriage anymore. I'm just trying to manage her behavior, her mental health, and the living-together situation.

Yes, she has made progress, at least in her general mental health. After the story that I told above about the sleep masks, I had to rent a wheelchair so that she could get out of home with us. Then I bought a compact electric scooter. And currently she uses just a pair of crutches or just the stroller. Sometimes she walks a few steps without anything to hold. Notice that when she is alone, she can walk perfectly normally, because this is just a specific phobia that resulted from a trauma.

The only thing that hasn't improved is her BPD symptoms, particularly her aggression, which has been getting worse and is too much for me again. But that was expected since she gave labor again a couple of months ago. I told her before labor that her aggressiveness would worsen, and it did.

Part of this is because she does sometimes rage for many days and does not take any supplements during this period.

I don't expect that time alone will improve her BPD at all. I actually can't handle it anymore right now. So I need a quick game changer. I have been working on some ideas related to motivation, which I'll post separately.

PS: Many say that pwBPD tend to improve after their 40s, but it's arguable that they don't improve; they just start to have less energy to invest in the drama.

I sounds like both of you are struggling in your own ways. I agree with you having control over the finances, as finances are essential for the whole family to have their basic needs met. Controlling food/supplements is problematic- unless you are there to supervise her 24/7 which you may be doing to some extent but even so, it's difficult to enforce with another adult.

As a disclaimer, I only know one "case" and as you know that isn't applicable to all. My BPD mother's issues with BPD did not improve with age. From what I could tell with my father, there may have been an improvement in manageability past 40, but that may have been for him, not with changes in her. After 40, we kids were teens and soon after that were out of the house. He didn't have the parenting tasks he did with younger children and had more relative freedom. Having the empty nest may have been less stressful for BPD mother, so perhaps it appears at times that BPD gets better with age. With my mother though, it seemed to vary according to how stressful (or not) the circumstances were.

[ForeverDad]

I recall that after my child was born, my then-spouse behaved for over a year as though she had postpartum depression.  It was so difficult.  Then she quit breastfeeding and life was so much better - for a couple months.  Then one of her friends called her a traitor and the march of ranting and raging resumed and life worsened again.  In her case nursing a baby was a factor for a time, but underlying it all was the personality dysfunction.

PS: Many say that pwBPD tend to improve after their 40s, but it's arguable that they don't improve; they just start to have less energy to invest in the drama.

Another factor could be that the children are grown or nearly grown and so the .tress factors are reduced.

Like I said, about the same thing happened to me with my first wife and then with my second wife, and now it could be happening with my third wife, but it's not quite.

Three for three?  Perhaps your relationship selection criteria would benefit with some tweaking.

Another thought... we members here are reasonably normal guys and gals.  By that I mean we're more or less okay but even so, we're not perfect.  While those with BPD traits could benefit with extensive therapy, this does not mean we're exempt.  All of us can benefit from counseling.