How to enforce boundaries when living together ???

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi all !

I have read a lot about boundaries, but I got to the conclusion that they can't work in a marital setting, especially when you have kids and you work from home. Because you, your kids, and your personal stuff are always there, available for whatever type of abuse your partner wants to engage in. So the BPD partner, while still angry, may just take pleasure in walking all over you, and that may keep going for many days until their anger finally subsides.

Let's review a basic definition of how to enforce boundaries:

To enforce boundaries, you must clearly define your limits, communicate them directly and calmly using "I" statements, and then consistently follow through with actions (consequences) when they're crossed, showing you mean it through your behavior, not just words, by disengaging, changing the subject, or limiting contact if necessary, to teach others how to treat you respectfully.

You can see how the definition above won't work, right? I mean, you're in the same house, sharing resources, and coparenting the kids, so contact is unavoidable. You can completely disengage from the partner during the raging out, but that will most likely ensure that they will keep dysregulated for a long time. Because they want a resolution of something, even if it's unclear to you what they want.

So I think the literature is weak, as it focuses too much on the communication but not on the enforcement and ignores the consequences, which is the most important part. Because what makes the boundary work are the consequences, right?

So let me ask a practical question. Let's suppose my wife has severely violated my boundary. She has screamed badmouthing me while keeping our door open, making sure neighbors from all other apartments will hear her. But this is part of an abusive behavior that only happens when she is dysregulated, so it's pointless to talk it out at the moment. I need to wait for her to switch into a normal temper before even attempting to talk about it. More than that, I need to wait until she is clearly trying to reconnect with me.

Finally, I succeed in talking to her about it. Because of her very rigid thoughts, she remains silent while I talk, showing some contempt. I'm ok with her silence, because I know she will defend her behavior if she talks. So she is just avoiding a peacebreaker. But then, I have to communicate to her the consequence. What should it be?

The only thing that crosses my mind is to step back from the intimate relationship (not cuddle together). But if that has already been done, then the next consequence might be to not touch her. If that's also already implemented, then perhaps not even talk to her like friends. And if that is still not enough, then it's time for separation and probably moving out.

Is that how we are supposed to make the BPD partners respect our boundaries?

If yes, then once the boundary is in place, how long should it last? Should it have a predetermined duration, such as one month? Should it last forever if the boundary violation keeps happening?

[SuperDaddy]

Hi all !

I have read a lot about boundaries, but I got to the conclusion that they can't work in a marital setting, especially when you have kids and you work from home. Because you, your kids, and your personal stuff are always there, available for whatever type of abuse your partner wants to engage in. So the BPD partner, while still angry, may just take pleasure in walking all over you, and that may keep going for many days until their anger finally subsides.

Let's review a basic definition of how to enforce boundaries:

To enforce boundaries, you must clearly define your limits, communicate them directly and calmly using "I" statements, and then consistently follow through with actions (consequences) when they're crossed, showing you mean it through your behavior, not just words, by disengaging, changing the subject, or limiting contact if necessary, to teach others how to treat you respectfully.

You can see how the definition above won't work, right? I mean, you're in the same house, sharing resources, and coparenting the kids, so contact is unavoidable. You can completely disengage from the partner during the raging out, but that will most likely ensure that they will keep dysregulated for a long time. Because they want a resolution of something, even if it's unclear to you what they want.

So I think the literature is weak, as it focuses too much on the communication but not on the enforcement and ignores the consequences, which is the most important part. Because what makes the boundary work are the consequences, right?

So let me ask a practical question. Let's suppose my wife has severely violated my boundary. She has screamed badmouthing me while keeping our door open, making sure neighbors from all other apartments will hear her. But this is part of an abusive behavior that only happens when she is dysregulated, so it's pointless to talk it out at the moment. I need to wait for her to switch into a normal temper before even attempting to talk about it. More than that, I need to wait until she is clearly trying to reconnect with me.

Finally, I succeed in talking to her about it. Because of her very rigid thoughts, she remains silent while I talk, showing some contempt. I'm ok with her silence, because I know she will defend her behavior if she talks. So she is just avoiding a peacebreaker. But then, I have to communicate to her the consequence. What should it be?

The only thing that crosses my mind is to step back from the intimate relationship (not cuddle together). But if that has already been done, then the next consequence might be to not touch her. If that's also already implemented, then perhaps not even talk to her like friends. And if that is still not enough, then it's time for separation and probably moving out.

Is that how we are supposed to make the BPD partners respect our boundaries?

If yes, then once the boundary is in place, how long should it last? Should it have a predetermined duration, such as one month? Should it last forever if the boundary violation keeps happening?

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[Pook075]

Is that how we are supposed to make the BPD partners respect our boundaries?

If yes, then once the boundary is in place, how long should it last? Should it have a predetermined duration, such as one month? Should it last forever if the boundary violation keeps happening?

A boundary is for you, made by you, and has nothing to do with anyone else.

For instance, I hate anchovies.  You and I are at dinner and you say, "Try the anchovies."  I say no thanks.  You try to persuade me in a variety of ways, but the bottom line is that I have already chosen before the conversation even started.  I'm doing the thing that's best for me.

A boundary within your home could be to stop arguing completely.  If your spouse begins to yell, step one should always be to try calming her down.  She's dysregulated and her words don't necessarily match her feelings, so you show compassion and understanding instead of arguing back.

Let's say that doesn't work.  Step two would be to withdraw.  This is just like the anchovies...I'm not doing it no matter what...so if I can't de-escalate the situation with words, I'll do it with action.  Maybe I go for a walk around the neighborhood, maybe I say I'm going to visit family for a few days; I'll do whatever I have to do in order to avoid a direct confrontation.  Again though, just like in step one I'm doing it with compassion and patience.

Let's say that doesn't work either and the situation turns violent as I try to leave.  Now I'm looking for outside intervention, possibly even calling 9-1-1 if necessary to seek an involuntary hold for a psych evaluation.  Even if things go this far though, I'm still doing everything I can with love and empathy. 

In other words, this isn't a punishment, it's a compassionate response to help someone that's suffering from mental illness.

As you enforce boundaries over time, it becomes very clear and predictable that arguing, threats, and violence will lead to very predictable results.  One of two things will happen at that point; the relationship fails or the pattern of communication changes in positive ways. 

Again though, and I can't say this enough, BPD dysfunction stems from the fear of abandonment.  Showing love and compassion while strengthening the relationship builds trust and allows the person to calm down and refocus.  That should always be the goal, to actually help them through loving them.

[Rowdy]

This is a very difficult one. With a pwBPD all logic and reason goes out the window. To use your example of shouting, I had kind of forgotten the extent of it in my household, but looking back there was a lot of shouting on my ex’s behalf.

During the first decade of our relationship, where we lived our neighbours were very loud and always shouting, so to me it wasn’t so much of an issue if my wife raised her voice. I probably shouted back in response.

During the next half of our relationship we had moved to a quieter area, and our neighbours were much quieter.
This led to me having a boundary that I’d not had before, about the shouting. She had a habit that used to annoy me, where she would leave the room I was in, go upstairs even, and continue to try and have a conversation with me that would ultimately lead to her shouting around the house.

Now, many times this wasn’t her getting dysregulated and blowing up shouting and screaming, it was just her trying to continue a conversation. If I wasn’t able to follow her around the house, or just plain couldn’t be bothered to do so, when she came back in the room I was in I would calmly explain that I will not shout from downstairs to her while she is upstairs.

This went on for a decade or more, but no matter how calmly I would explain I am not shouting, do you think she ever took that on board? I never had or enforced many boundaries but that was one of them, but made no difference to her whatsoever.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi Pook075 ,

Do you have the experience that I described in my original post? It doesn't look like you do. I checked your very first message, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your former wife was not trying to destroy your life, and instead she withdrew and ran away, right? I think your advice may fit well with your experience but not mine. And there are some things that I disagree with.

A boundary will never be about you only. Because it will always affect your partner in some way. And it must, because otherwise it won't be effective at all. Let me give an example. You want to leave the chat every time she offends you. If you leave, she will feel it. So you set an AI to keep talking to her after she has left so that she doesn't feel it. The problem there is that you have allowed her to create an unrealistic expectation about your attention, and next time it will be even harder to end the conversation.

But let's suppose you'll be honest with her, so instead of using AI, you try to communicate it nicely, with compassion, hoping that she will accept it (not get too angry). That may work with most BPD wives on most occasions, but in some cases, depending on her emotional state and motives, she will be so frantic about it that she won't be listening to you at all, and you won't be able to convince her, so she will get angry anyway, and that can escalate to self-harm or husband-harm. If you are both in the same house, then it will be too easy to just jump on your back and not allow you to sleep. Do you get it?

You did not say anything about enforcing boundaries, except in the end when you talked about calling 911. But that's like outsourcing the boundary enforcement to the government. That won't be an option unless she is putting someone's life at risk and you can prove it.

Stating that "BPD dysfunction stems from the fear of abandonment" may apply to your experience, but it certainly does not apply to all. The "frantic efforts to avoid abandonment" criterion from the DSM is not even mandatory; it is optional. The core symptom is actually the emotional instability. This is why in the UK and Europe, BPD is often called Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (EUPD), which is an official term.

Anyway, my point is that the person with BPD may get triggered by any kind of "No" response that they get, depending on the interpretation that they do.

Let me give you a futile example. A couple of days ago, my wife heard the kids asking me for a coffee candy, and I gave one to each. So my wife asked me for a candy as well. I said "No", because she had been attacking me verbally for the entire day. I was not arguing back to her about anything, because I don't want the kids to hear any discussion. But still, she managed to get angry at me for saying "No". She got so angry, she got re-triggered and started it all over again.

The same happened today when she was preparing to go to therapy and asked me to put the power bank in the bag. I said "No, I have already given you the power bank just now, so you can put it in the bag", because it would be very easy for her to do it by herself, and again, she had been offending me badly since the day before. She then started lashing out again, had an anxiety crisis, and missed the therapy, which I had already paid for. All because she got a "No" to a trivial thing.

So should we just say "Yes" to everything? No, that would make us a slave and perhaps an enabler as well. What she needs is to set a boundary that she can't cross over. But I don't see how to do this when living together. Unless police and the judge are enforcing limits for her on your behalf.

Does that make sense?

[Pook075]

Hi Pook075 ,

Do you have the experience that I described in my original post? It doesn't look like you do. I checked your very first message, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your former wife was not trying to destroy your life, and instead she withdrew and ran away, right? I think your advice may fit well with your experience but not mine. And there are some things that I disagree with.

A boundary will never be about you only.

I was married to my BPD ex for 25 years and dated her about two years before that.  We also had a BPD daughter together.  My ex was violent, unstable, and extremely entitled for many of the early years of the marriage.  She also bad-mouthed me to anyone who would listen and tried her best to turn our kids against me.

Of the things I just listed, what can I personally control?

The answer is "nothing", and that's why a boundary is ONLY about me.  If my boundary is about me and her, and she responds badly, then what do I have?  Nothing.  That's why is must be only about me.

That may work with most BPD wives on most occasions, but in some cases, depending on her emotional state and motives, she will be so frantic about it that she won't be listening to you at all, and you won't be able to convince her, so she will get angry anyway, and that can escalate to self-harm or husband-harm. If you are both in the same house, then it will be too easy to just jump on your back and not allow you to sleep. Do you get it?

Okay, so she's frantic.  Let her be.  I would walk away and allow her to be frantic all on her own.  My boundary for that is simple- I don't argue, I don't take abuse.  If I try to help her calm down and it fails, I walk away.

In other words, no matter what she does, I'm focusing on my boundary for my mental health.  She can do absolutely anything she wants; the decision is hers.  She gets to decide for herself and I get to decide for me.

You did not say anything about enforcing boundaries, except in the end when you talked about calling 911. But that's like outsourcing the boundary enforcement to the government. That won't be an option unless she is putting someone's life at risk and you can prove it.

Domestic violence is real and it's enforced pretty much worldwide.  Maybe nobody goes to jail, but the point is made nonetheless.  My boundary is that I don't argue, I don't accept abuse.  If you can't respect that and you won't let me leave, then I'm dialing 9-1-1.

However, see this for what is really is though.  I say to you, "I'm not arguing."  You keep arguing.  I try to walk away.  You don't let me walk away.  I reinforce what my boundary is, I'm not arguing and I'm choosing to walk away to avoid this.  You decide to get physical, or you start breaking things, or you threaten to harm me or yourself.  That's when 9-1-1 comes in.

Because look what happened.  My boundary is "I don't argue."  Either you accept that or it escalates.  The choices are all 100% yours and they have no bearing on my personal boundaries.  I'm going to choose not to engage though because my boundary does not depend on you.

Again, if I say, "I'm not going to argue anymore....ever....", then I can stand by that.  It has nothing to do with how much someone else yells, screams, or threatens harm.

Anyway, my point is that the person with BPD may get triggered by any kind of "No" response that they get, depending on the interpretation that they do.

Again, let them get triggered.  If your kids don't eat their vegetables but demand ice cream, do you just say, "Oh well, I have to make the kids happy so the heck with the rules?"  Of course not, you teach right from wrong.  And you do the exact same thing with a BPD spouse.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi Pook075 ,

Well, boundaries, by definition, must be enforceable. That's for every context, and it remains true when you're dealing with a BPD spouse. The eyelid example we see in this board is something you can enforce (no one can prevent you from closing your eyelids). Do you agree with this basic concept?

Anyway, I think you agree that all of the interaction with the BPD spouse, as well as the lack of interaction, is part of a negotiation, right? So every smaller part of it is transactional. You may not be forcing anything directly, but you are focusing on the consequences that you bring to each behavior of hers, and your goal is not just to preserve yourself but also to have a positive influence on her behavior, right?

In your last sentence you were implying that we would teach our BPD spouse right from wrong. So you should agree that the boundary ends up being a negative consequence for her behavior. Just like when we ignore an infant that's throwing a tantrum. Right?

My original title is "How to enforce boundaries when living together?" and your reply is "by walking away". But what do you mean by that? Staying in the same house won't work because the person keeps persecuting you. Leaving the house every time is also not an option because of kids and working from home. Locking yourself in a room also won't work very well. So the only effective way to "walk away" is to move out. Now that's not a valid solution for the original problem, because when you leave, you are not living together anymore. Does that make sense?

So do you agree that when living together, chances are that you won't be able to enforce the necessary boundaries of yours anymore?

My ex was violent, unstable, and extremely entitled for many of the early years of the marriage.

Did she persecute you throughout the house? If you were back in the same situation you experienced in the past, how exactly should you have "walked away" from that?

By the way, if I lived in a huge home made of wood and drywall, I guess the acoustics would help a lot. But instead I live in an apartment with walls of brick/concrete that has only about 80 square meters. The walls do no dampening of the screams; they reflect the sound instead.

[SuperDaddy]

By the way, the very first success story of this board, written by John Galt, is the most interesting one. But in my understanding, what happened there is that his wife got threatened with losing her husband and the custody of the kids at the same time. Since she had been through institutional stays, suicide attempts, and police charges, John Galt had plenty of proof that she wasn't stable enough to take care of the kids by herself, and therefore shared custody was not a viable option, so the judge should give him full custody. And because she was fully aware of that possibility, she complied.

If my wife felt truly threatened with losing custody of the kids because of her instability, I can guarantee you that things would take a miraculous trajectory from there, like in the case of John Galt. However, the videos I have from her are not that bad. They only prove that she breaks stuff and bullies me. But she has never done self-harm and has never gotten police charges.

[Pook075]

Hi Pook075 ,

Well, boundaries, by definition, must be enforceable. That's for every context, and it remains true when you're dealing with a BPD spouse. The eyelid example we see in this board is something you can enforce (no one can prevent you from closing your eyelids). Do you agree with this basic concept?

Anyway, I think you agree that all of the interaction with the BPD spouse, as well as the lack of interaction, is part of a negotiation, right?

Marriage is give and take, so yes, you're always negotiating.  But boundaries are non-negotiable if you enforce them properly.

If you go back to my first post in this thread, I said several times to show love and compassion when your BPD spouse is dysregulated.  I think that's the whole key you're missing; this is not about punishment or gaining the upper hand. 

- You show compassion to help your spouse calm down, to avoid the fight.
- If that fails, you ask for some space for everyone to calm down.
- If that fails, you inform them that you're taking a break and will be back soon.
- If that fails, you physically leave the home for a short time.
- If that fails, you mention law enforcement or an ambulance.

But the one thing you're doing the entire time, at every step of the process, is try to calm your spouse down through love, empathy, and compassion.

Almost every argument comes down to a sense of abandonment.  That's not what they say, but it's what they feel and it's why they get so upset.  In that moment, the only goal is to help them take a breath so their mind catches up to their emotions.  You don't defend.  You don't fight back.  You don't try to get even. 

You help them weather the storm by letting them know that they're the most important thing in the moment.  And then the storm passes.

Your wife is mentally ill, so at times she struggles to regulate her feelings.  When she's scared, lonely, or depressed, things can go downhill fast.  That's why you make her feel safe, seen, and loved...that's the cure to all of this.

You might think it's impossible.  But does your wife yell at everyone?  The mail man?  The guy at the grocery store?  The neighbors?  If the answer is no to any of those people, then she can regulate her emotions when she's not unstable.  The problem comes from within the relationship.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi Pook075 ,

I see your point. You're basically stating that compassion, when skillfully used, is an effective antidote for the interpersonal relational challenges of having a BPD spouse, right? But I can't agree with that.

Love and compassion will help with any relationship and are especially helpful with a BPD loved one. It's not an antidote, though. Love helps with BPD just like money helps with health problems. Money can be used to pay for appointments, treatments, buy prescriptions, etc. But neither love nor money will guarantee a solution.

That's because not feeling loved is NOT the only source of ALL interpersonal conflict that a BPD spouse has with their partner. Any unresolved conflict will eventually lead to an internal dispute, which then may lead to the BPD spouse acting out.

The BPD partner introduces a significant amount of conflict into the relationship with their partner. In the beginning, with love and lots of energy, those conflicts can be managed. I can't say the conflicts are resolved, though, because the same type of conflict keeps popping up again over time. Add a living together, and the conflicts are multiplied, so you might lack the time and energy to fully manage them. Add kids to the mix, and then it becomes completely unmanageable.

There's when boundaries could work, if they could be enforced.

You might think it's impossible.  But does your wife yell at everyone?  The mail man?  The guy at the grocery store?  The neighbors?  If the answer is no to any of those people, then she can regulate her emotions when she's not unstable.  The problem comes from within the relationship.

- She has yelled at my BPDex multiple times. They exchanged verbal offenses and even got a bit physical. They are both jealous of me and have rivalry, but the conflict matter is the kids that I share with my ex.

- She also yells at her mother for the same very specific reason. It's because of the depreciative comments that her mother always makes about her physical appearance.

- She also lashed out at her father once because of the authoritative way he talked to her on the phone after he had been avoiding her for 2 years.

- She has also yelled at the top of her voice at a neighbor once while we lunched in the restaurant because the karaoke music was too loud and they were not turning it down.

Would you say all of that is about abandonment? No, it's not. It is about emotional instability.

My wife doesn't feel threatened with abandonment so often. She can get aggressive because of minor things that make her feel unworthy, but in the rare moments in which she did feel a real abandonment threat, she actually reacted in a very warm and kind way. I think it's the other way around. The more she feels safe and loved, the more she is likely to lash out. Simply because it's safe to do it. This is why I don't cuddle with her anymore. Every time I did it, the next day would be a nightmare.

On the other hand, if my behavior does seriously indicate that I'm completely detached, she cools off and gradually cuts off the crazy behavior. She begins by using little pull strategies, such as being nude all day or saying that she is unwell so that I take care of her. But if that doesn't work, then she completely unflips and reverts from an entitled bully into a fragile and affectionate person. So I think the real fear of abandonment does not make her aggressive; it makes her calm.

I agree that there must be love to make it work. And here there is. But maybe the problem is that I fail to enforce long-standing boundaries on my own feelings. My random displays of affection and attraction are the actual problem. And I think everyone falls into the same trap.

[Pook075]

I see your point. You're basically stating that compassion, when skillfully used, is an effective antidote for the interpersonal relational challenges of having a BPD spouse, right? But I can't agree with that.

Love and compassion will help with any relationship and are especially helpful with a BPD loved one. It's not an antidote, though. Love helps with BPD just like money helps with health problems. Money can be used to pay for appointments, treatments, buy prescriptions, etc. But neither love nor money will guarantee a solution.

My BPD daughter hated me most of her life.  She made every possible mistake as a teen and because my ex-wife was also BPD, I had to be the adult in the room.  Not that my ex couldn't make decisions, but my kid knew mom was weak and would give in, so she attacked her relentlessly.

Every argument between them would eventually end with, "Go ask your dad, I don't care."  So I had to be the bad guy, which I was fine with 100% of the time.  The kid had to learn right from wrong and therapists were adamant about standing your ground.  So I did and she hated me.

Yet every single time she was in trouble (always self-induced through bad decisions), she called me because she knew I'd show up and fight for her.

This continued throughout her teens and early 20's, until she finally got the right therapist.  And once the therapist pointed out that I always showed up, always fought her battles, my kid apologized and our relationship has been great ever since.

Because that's the whole source of instability- I called it abandonment and maybe that's not technically the right word.  But once a BPD realizes that you have their back no matter what, the dysfunction disappears.

Now, others in our family are now painted black and put through the ringer at times, but my kid and I continue to have a good relationship because of that one simple fact.  When she needs someone, dad will be there no matter what.

After our separation, my ex had painted me black and it was basically the same situation.  But over time, we moved past that to where my ex realized that I was an ally.  She's untreated and in denial, but she knows that if she reaches out I'll show up however I can.  And that ended 100% of the drama between us.


That's because not feeling loved is NOT the only source of ALL interpersonal conflict that a BPD spouse has with their partner. Any unresolved conflict will eventually lead to an internal dispute, which then may lead to the BPD spouse acting out.

My wife doesn't feel threatened with abandonment so often. She can get aggressive because of minor things that make her feel unworthy, but in the rare moments in which she did feel a real abandonment threat, she actually reacted in a very warm and kind way. I think it's the other way around. The more she feels safe and loved, the more she is likely to lash out. Simply because it's safe to do it. This is why I don't cuddle with her anymore. Every time I did it, the next day would be a nightmare.

There's two different things happening here.  First is when your wife gets aggressive over minor stuff...but that's not true.  You see the minor thing but she's seen 50 things in a disordered state that tells her you've been plotting and scheming against her.  That's the illness and that's where having her back completely changes things. 

Again, abandonment may not be a perfect word but that's what it is, she feels slighted or less than so she lashes out.

The other thing you're describing, when you're loving and she lashes out shortly thereafter, is an extension of those 50 things she's secretly mad about.  She's mad, you're loving, and she enjoys it until she has time to reflect.  Then she decides that your actions were because you're clearly guilty of whatever she's thinking and the big guns come out.

On the other hand, if my behavior does seriously indicate that I'm completely detached, she cools off and gradually cuts off the crazy behavior. She begins by using little pull strategies, such as being nude all day or saying that she is unwell so that I take care of her. But if that doesn't work, then she completely unflips and reverts from an entitled bully into a fragile and affectionate person. So I think the real fear of abandonment does not make her aggressive; it makes her calm.

Here you're actually talking about a boundary without putting a name to it.  She wants to manipulate in order to punish you, but then realizes you're pulling away so she cuts it off and reverses course.  During that time though, she's becoming dysregulated because you're distant and if you don't swoop back in....boom.

In both of these scenarios, it's a push/pull dynamic without ever fully resetting and getting back to just being there for each other.  That's the battle, finding how to do that when the wheels fly off the bus. 

With all the BPDs in my life (my ex wife's side of the family, a few other relatives), I've found that being proactive and letting them see that I have their backs no matter what diffuses all that drama and anxiousness.  Because as soon as they feel even a tiny bit slighted or crossed, things start going south quickly. 

Heck, my best friend's little sister is another BPD example.  She's cut off her entire family, all our friends growing up, etc.  Yet her and I are still cool because I communicate with her a different way and always tell her that I'm there for her, I understand why she's upset with others, etc. 

It really makes all the difference in the world and you never get to the meltdown stage.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi Pook075 ,

Congratulations for having a good relationship with all of those three people that suffer from BPD. You could even write about it in the success stories thread. But does your daughter live with you? I'm guessing she doesn't.

The whole point of this thread is how to handle it when the pwBPD wants to keep destroying your well-being and they are in the best place to do so, in your bed.

I don't think you can find someone who is living with a BPD partner and is able to make it work using just skills and compassion, because this is impossible. Unless they are under a serious threat of separation. The threat is only taken seriously if it has already happened before forcefully, and it can clearly happen again at any time, forcefully again.

My wife says she suffered a lot on every occasion in which she was away from me. But I think she didn't learn any lesson from those experiences because none of those occasions was a forceful separation.

Here you're actually talking about a boundary without putting a name to it.  She wants to manipulate in order to punish you, but then realizes you're pulling away so she cuts it off and reverses course.  During that time though, she's becoming dysregulated because you're distant and if you don't swoop back in....boom.

Yes, being detached can be seen as a boundary, but it doesn't really work when living together, because I'm at a close distance. So she can just keep shouting, cursing, throwing objects at me, using the kids in different ways to provoke me, or throwing stuff in the trash.

But your understanding of her behavior is not precise. What I said about her walking nude and being unwell is not manipulation. It is a genuine and automatic behavior that she does when she feels the need for proximity, even while she is still very angry.

I'm self-sufficient to a point that I don't need her affection. I actually feel relieved when I am a few days away from her. So she isn't able to manipulate me at all, but she can easily turn my life into hell regardless, only because we still live together.

You said "if you don't swoop back in....boom", but that's not true. She has never exploded because I didn't "swoop back in". What I said is the opposite, that she turns down the volume when I'm distant for too long.

After I keep myself detached for many days, she stops getting angry at the flip of a hat and then starts using different tactics. She may sleep on the couch, hoping that I'll feel lonely, may make theatrical acts to make me jealous about other men, or may turn into a kind and lovely wife.

For a very long time, I have been planning to keep myself emotionally distant from her, permanently, but I always end up relaxing and forgetting about it.

[Rowdy]

Because that's the whole source of instability- I called it abandonment and maybe that's not technically the right word.  But once a BPD realizes that you have their back no matter what, the dysfunction disappears.

@Pook the quote above in your last post really stood out, as it was something my wife literally said before the discard.
She said “I know that no matter what I do, you and my dad will always have my back” which was probably 2 months before we broke up.

[Rowdy]

But your understanding of her behavior is not precise. What I said about her walking nude and being unwell is not manipulation. It is a genuine and automatic behavior that she does when she feels the need for proximity, even while she is still very angry.

@Superdaddy what makes you think these are not manipulation tactics? You said they were pull strategies and she changes her behaviour if she sees that it doesn’t work. Is that not the definition of manipulative behaviour?
Maybe she did this and it worked a few times, so it then became learned behaviour, because if it worked once it may well work again leading to it becoming automatic behaviour?

[SuperDaddy]

Rowdy ,

@Pook the quote above in your last post really stood out, as it was something my wife literally said before the discard.
She said “I know that no matter what I do, you and my dad will always have my back” which was probably 2 months before we broke up.

Thanks a lot for this clarification. Did she feel loved and still keep seeking conflict after saying that? Did anything bad happen within those 2 months?

@Superdaddy what makes you think these are not manipulation tactics? You said they were pull strategies and she changes her behaviour if she sees that it doesn’t work. Is that not the definition of manipulative behaviour?

It's not manipulative because she doesn't think about it, and she does not deceive me. It is very spontaneous and automatic. It's just the BPD craziness settling down and the normal self taking over.

She does use manipulative tactics with bouts of lies, but only when the crazy feature is active, and her manipulation goal is never to promote proximity; it is to provoke me and feed more conflict.

It's so sad that living together makes it impossible for me to set boundaries, because I'll have to force her back into her mom's place, despite her being a very good person when BPD features are not active.

[Pook075]

@Pook the quote above in your last post really stood out, as it was something my wife literally said before the discard.
She said “I know that no matter what I do, you and my dad will always have my back” which was probably 2 months before we broke up.

Just know that for someone who has mental illness, two months is literally an eternity.

In my case, my wife and I split up around the end of July.  My birthday was a month prior and she posted a super long thank you on my Facebook page for always being there for her.  When she left, she told family that I was mentally abusive and she had to get out.  Every single one of them pointed to that Facebook post though, saying what's changed in the past four weeks since you said he was the best husband ever? 

She had no answer...and of course she deleted the post.

Disordered thinking is literally a cancer and I think all of us have experienced it at some point in our lives.  I can remember being fired from a job in my 30's where the boss just hated me.  I was the hardest worker there and I was always trying to make the boss's job easier, but she really had it out for me and I never understood why.

I can remember after being fired, I'd catch myself daydreaming about revenge.  I'm not that guy, and I'd never go after anyone, but the more I thought about it, the more my mind came up with ways to get her fired from the job too.  And truthfully, I hated thinking that way...I hated being so angry that my mind wanted vengeance.  So I can't imagine having a mind that does that 24/7 when things aren't going my way.  That's pretty much what BPD does though.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi Pook075 ,

I thought you were telling me that with compassion and by making her understand that I'm always there for her, I would be able to end all of the interpersonal conflict between me and my wife, and therefore enforcing boundaries would not be required.

But then you just agreed with Rowdy on the fact that the BPD partner can devalue you and leave you just a few weeks after having stated that you are always there for them.

Now I'm confused. What's your final opinion on "How to enforce boundaries when living together" ?

And truthfully, I hated thinking that way...I hated being so angry that my mind wanted vengeance.  So I can't imagine having a mind that does that 24/7 when things aren't going my way.  That's pretty much what BPD does though.

Yes, I understand that anger can be poisonous. But not if you act out on it. If you get angry at the cockroaches in your basement, but you exterminate them successfully with fire, you then feel good about it and you have a good day. We can do an analogy here in which we are the cockroaches.

[Rowdy]

Rowdy ,

Thanks a lot for this clarification. Did she feel loved and still keep seeking conflict after saying that? Did anything bad happen within those 2 months?

It's not manipulative because she doesn't think about it, and she does not deceive me. It is very spontaneous and automatic. It's just the BPD craziness settling down and the normal self taking over.

She does use manipulative tactics with bouts of lies, but only when the crazy feature is active, and her manipulation goal is never to promote proximity; it is to provoke me and feed more conflict.

It's so sad that living together makes it impossible for me to set boundaries, because I'll have to force her back into her mom's place, despite her being a very good person when BPD features are not active.

Did she feel loved. Well that was a big problem throughout our relationship because no matter what I said, or did, she thought I didn’t love her, or didn’t show her, or never told her. I told her every day. We would kiss and cuddle every day. We would hold hands every time we went for a walk, or our shopping. I did everything I could for her. But it never seemed enough. Everyone that knew us as a couple knew that we were a loving couple. That’s why I’m here, trying to work out if it’s bpd that she has.

Did anything happen in those two months. I’ve spoken about the drug addiction on here. We were both tied up in that but I’d been asking her for years to stop getting it. In those last two months I said to her, stop getting coke you are killing me, and stop drinking so much you are killing yourself. That was pretty much the catalyst for the discard in my opinion. Add to that the fact her business was/is in quite a bit of debt, I wasn’t working much because of the drug addiction rendering me next to useless and a neighbour that had just retired and started complaining if our dogs barked while we were at work, so became paranoid about that, her ‘networking’ her wealthy clients so they would offer her money to bail her business out, and then finally her new best friend leaving her husband, the guy that was selling my wife coke. She started playing them off each other, plotting to keep his money from his wife, then monkey branched to him as he has got rich parents and some money in the bank.

All very toxic reasons in my opinion, along with the fact he was the third married man she became over friendly with going through a marriage breakup, which to me looks like a pattern of behaviour designed to give her some sort of ego boost because of her, I don’t know whether it’s fear of abandonment, but along with the belief that I didn’t love her, she would be incredibly jealous of ANY female contact and accused me of all sorts of twisted nonsense like father friends children etc when I wasn’t in the least bit unfaithful to her.

[Pook075]

I thought you were telling me that with compassion and by making her understand that I'm always there for her, I would be able to end all of the interpersonal conflict between me and my wife, and therefore enforcing boundaries would not be required.

But then you just agreed with Rowdy on the fact that the BPD partner can devalue you and leave you just a few weeks after having stated that you are always there for them.

Now I'm confused. What's your final opinion on "How to enforce boundaries when living together" ?

Compassion and saying "you'll always be there/support her/fight for her/etc" is the recipe, until the next dysregulation happens.  And if you catch it early, sure, the conflict can end very quickly or maybe there's no conflict at all. 

But you also know that BPDs can hold back and hide so much of what's really going on.  Maybe catching the mood shift early isn't possible, maybe everything blows up a week or a month later.  You're thinking everything is fine and then 'boom'.

For instance, my marriage ended because my ex wife stopped talking.  She was depressed out of her mind, she spent all her free time away from home or in bed, and I kept asking her what was wrong.  Each time she said, "I don't know."

Today, I could respond to that a whole lot better.  But back then I had no idea what was happening or why she was becoming so distant.  There was no argument, no big fights, nothing.  Plus, she hadn't been diagnosed at the time so I wasn't even thinking major mental illness.  She ended up having an affair and left me for the guy.

Once she was gone though, within days I saw the classic BPD venom on full display.  I was thinking, where the heck is this coming from?  All the anger and hatred exploded out of her and she said things I never thought she was capable of saying.  That's when I talked to our family doctor, who knows my BPD kid's full history, and she started connecting the dots.  I felt like a complete idiot not realizing the patterns from early in our marriage and how our kid was at the same age.

On thing my ex said to me after she left really stuck with me.  About two weeks earlier, she walked up to me in the kitchen and just looked miserable.  I stopped what I was doing and hugged her for maybe 10-15 seconds, then finished whatever I was doing and went on my way.  Fast forward to days after the breakup, she said, "You knew how badly I needed you to hold me and how horrible I felt, yet you just gave me a quick hug and walked away like I was worthless."

Three years later, that still stings because I HAD NO CLUE she had disordered thinking and felt anything like she described. 

So if you can't see it and you don't know about it, then the explosions can seem like they're coming out of nowhere.  They're rarely about one little thing though, it's a buildup of things that stem from unstable emotions and dangerous thinking.  And when it builds, it's much harder to reverse in the moment.

Since I've really dug into this though, my ex and I are now on good terms and can speak normally.  I just had no idea what I was dealing with or how sick she actually was/is.

[Rowdy]

That’s interesting Pook as it’s a similar pattern to my breakup.
Very similar.

Did you tell her about your concerns she has or could have bpd?
Did you have these concerns when you were still together or did you, like me, only find out about bpd after the breakup?
Is she still with the person she had an affair with or did that relationship end up going sour too?

[mitochondrium]

Hi SuperDaddy,

I read quiet some of your posts and it seems to me that right now you are determined to “proove” to yourself and to us that boundaries are impossible when living together. I strongly dissagree, I think you need boundaries even more when living together, there is nowhere to run away in this case…
I think that it is common for pwBPD to go around the house shouting at their partner trying to prove their point in a circular argument with lots of accusations etc… I had this quiet often in the past, sometimes it still happens. I think the key is in comunication and sticking to trying to get away from the argument calmly as Pook has very nicely described. I think that the whole communication has to be changed in not JADEing and in validating what is valid, but at the same time standing your ground. I managed to get this shouting hous following episodes to less frequent occurances by „just“ that. When I see that conversation is going south, usually it is because of something minior unexpected and unimaginally unimportant in seconds… I try to stay totally calm, try to validate what is valid, which is usually emotion and try to finnish the conversation asap. I reassure I did not mean anything bad to him and that I never do want anything bad to him. This usually calms him down. However, sometimes it doesen’t or I do not manage to talk like that. Then shouting will happen and accusations. At that time I would say something like: I can see that xy made you upset, let’s talk later when we are both calm. And now mostly it happens that he calms at least to semi normal level and we can “finnish the conversation” in which I usually try to finnish it asap. If even this did not work then chasing would happen, I would calmly say that I am going to another room, that I cannot talk right now, that we will talk when we both calm down. In the past that made him crazy angry, he would come after me, demanded to talk, if I would lie down in a bed and be cowered by a blanket he would pull it off me. Once I locked myself in a room, he was hitting the room door so much I was afraid he would have broke it, when I did not come out he was playing music I really do not like at very high volume, this was going on for quet some time, around 1h. I did not come out. Eventually he stopped playing it. Then after some time I came out and said it totally calmly and very coldly that next time something like this happens I will call the police. This boundary that seems to bother you the most I think it is hard to get it done, but it is not impossible and it is necessary when living together. In reallity it took us more years to get to where we are now and even now some more progress would be wanted. In the pat my reactions were puting oil on the fire and we could be in the shouting chasing phase quickly…Regarding these screaming-chasing episodes, I talked about them afterwards with my prtner, when he showed some remorse I again and again demanded that I will not talk to him when he is screaming and that he should acknowledge my right to remove myself when this happens. And then reinforced it when arguments happened, slowly, I also had to learn reinforcment. I also said multiple times that when he is behaving like that, I am very frigned of him, that I am frighned he will eventually hit me. Little by little I was able to remove myself a bit more without him chasing most of the time. Maybe it would be good for you to make a plan with your wife what to do when she is screaming (or just say „when we argue“ not to ofend her), maybe she would agree that this is not ok for children to listen to and experience, maybe you can get her to agree that when she behaves like that you take a walk with children? Or that she takes a walk and you discuss this later calmly? And then stay your ground with reinforment.
From what you wrote it feels to me that you are still coming in comunication with your wife from logical point of view, you seem to have the need to explain yourself and to explain why your wife is like she is. I agree that it is not just feeling of abandoment but also other things frim the past that makes pwBPD behave like they do, but nevertheless it is still the behaviour that we would like to change for normal life. And JADEing does not work in pwBPD, not at all. Let’s take this example of yours: The same happened today when she was preparing to go to therapy and asked me to put the power bank in the bag. I said "No, I have already given you the power bank just now, so you can put it in the bag", because it would be very easy for her to do it by herself, and again, she had been offending me badly since the day before. She then started lashing out again, had an anxiety crisis, and missed the therapy, which I had already paid for. All because she got a "No" to a trivial thing.
I think you have explained too much, you do not have to do that, it is triggering and unnecessary. I have a lot of experience of the same things, for me the best solution in such a setting would be to say stg. like: I cannot right now, I am bussy with something else right now, could you do it yourself? I also suspect she was already in triggery mood because of going to therapy.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi Rowdy ,

That’s why I’m here, trying to work out if it’s bpd that she has.

It's common for many other disorders to co-occur (to be comorbid). For instance, about 25% of people with BPD also get the NPD diagnosis. But what you describe matches with BPD in my opinion.

The BPD will incentivize people to do lots of "bad" stuff, which can be inappropriate, destructive, self-sabotaging, etc. Part of that "bad" stuff may violate the basic principles of dignity, which means the disorder will try to corrupt their character. Then it depends on how strong their values are and how strongly the disorder pushes them to do the "bad" stuff, such as promiscuity. Some of the negative actions they take while dysregulated will be regretted once they return to a normal state, but certain behaviors may become normalized, leading to an escalation of those behaviors.

My point is that a tug-of-war exists between two distinct parts of them. It is their character strength fighting against the disorder's strength.

In this sense, the relationship between BPD and promiscuity can be compared to the relationship between PD (pedophilic disorder) and child sexual offenders. Here are the facts:

• Prevalence of PD is around 3% of the population (source).
• Not all PD individuals are offenders. They are known as "nonoffending pedophiles" (source).
• Only 20% of the individuals convicted of sexual crimes against children and/or adolescents present characteristics that meet the pedophilic disorder diagnostic criteria" (source).
• Only 8% of reported contemporary child sexual assault incidents resulted in a proven charge, and 85% of reported sexual assaults had no legal action at the police investigation stage (source).

Likewise, not all people that were born with the genes of a psychopath will end up committing crimes. The story of James H. Fallon is a well-documented example. He was "saved" because he was adopted by a healthy couple and had healthy siblings.

So my point is that a pwBPD will always need some sort of contingency, internal or external. The internal contingency comes from their principles and their guilt/shame. The external contingency comes from enforced external consequences, such as the boundaries enforced by their partners or the law enforcement.

Did anything happen in those two months. I’ve spoken about the drug addiction on here. We were both tied up in that but I’d been asking her for years to stop getting it. In those last two months I said to her, stop getting coke you are killing me, and stop drinking so much you are killing yourself. That was pretty much the catalyst for the discard in my opinion.

Maybe that made her feel as if she were in the wrong, and she thought you would dump her because of her addiction, so she took initiative before you, also to get rid of her own toxic shame.

[Rowdy]

Maybe that made her feel as if she were in the wrong, and she thought you would dump her because of her addiction, so she took initiative before you, also to get rid of her own toxic shame.


I think that would be giving her too much credit that she has a conscience. What followed was a year of manipulation to get me to go round her house and sleep with her behind her boyfriends back. The last time she even talked about leaving him and coming home. In fact, she said she had finished with him, but then backed out on coming home because she thought I would discard her in revenge.

I believe she is still on drugs, she has admitted doing it with him once, only for me to catch her coming out of another drug dealers a few weeks later. Drugs and money, that’s her meal ticket.

[Pook075]

Did you tell her about your concerns she has or could have bpd?

I did, and that went over very badly.  I should have kept it to myself and waited for our doctor to mention it to her.  In fact, I think that's what brought me to this forum...the informal diagnosis and the conversation I had with my ex afterwards.

Did you have these concerns when you were still together or did you, like me, only find out about bpd after the breakup?

We had a BPD/bipolar kid at home who was always in crisis, always ready to run away or kill herself, and always fighting us for everything in life.  Things were very off from like age six forward and every single day was some type of challenge the average family doesn't deal with. 

So for me, I saw something very off with my wife from the early years, but then it suddenly became all about the oldest kid who's always in crisis mode.  Looking back, I can see where many of my wife's responses or decisions were very off too, and it probably made raising a BPD much harder than it had to be. 

But I never had time to stop and think if my wife had mental illness or not.  We were just too busy walking on eggshells and surviving whatever aftermath came from our oldest kid.

Is she still with the person she had an affair with or did that relationship end up going sour too?

She ended up marrying that guy and her job is caring for his handicapped son.  My kids frequently tell me she's still always anxious and stressed out over something, but I didn't ask for any details.  All her focus seems to be on the handicapped step-son and caring for him though, so that breakup would be super complicated for her.  Time will tell if it can last, but I'd guess that she would try to stay no matter what.

As far as their husband/wife relationship, I have no idea and I don't care.  I hope they're happy together.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi mitochondrium ,

I read quiet some of your posts and it seems to me that right now you are determined to “proove” to yourself and to us that boundaries are impossible when living together.

I'm just seeking the truth, nothing else. Because it's time for me to take big decisions. I don't care if people disagree, but I'll be interested in good arguments, regardless of what direction they point.

I strongly dissagree, I think you need boundaries even more when living together, there is nowhere to run away in this case…

Yes, boundaries are needed even more when living together, and that's why I started this thread. My goal is to find out how to make the boundaries effective (e.g. how to enforce them).

My current opinion is that the BPD partner that is in your space (lives with you) will make your life a hell regardless of how many tools you know, unless you can enforce boundaries. For a woman, it is straightforward to do it. All you have to do is to call the police, or perhaps only threaten to do it. However, for a man, this is not an option. Some women have the naive thought that domestic violence laws serve for both sexes, but that isn't true at all. Well, at least not here in Brazil.

Many different police officers have already come to my door. They came because neighbors were impressed with my wife's screams. A number of times they asked her if she wanted them to "take me to jail red-handed," and she said no. They don't need her to provide any proof. If a woman says that she feels threatened or that she feels a victim of psychological violence, that's enough for them. A few times I was able to show them the video footage of her outbursts, and sometimes they talked to us trying to understand what was going on. In all of those cases, they rapidly switched to my side but were still "at service for her," not for me. Once a police officer pulled me 10 meters away from her just to explain to me that I had to leave her; otherwise, she would get me in trouble, because the law was all on her side. I have heard this kind of warning from many different police officers. The DV laws here only protect women's rights. We have women's laws.

Anyway, my wife isn't giving me bruises or stabbing me, so I don't have any proof that I could use in law enforcement for serious injury. A woman breaking stuff and throwing stuff at the husband or at his door is considered normal. I don't have footage of her promising to kill me, but I'm pretty sure they would not take it seriously either.

Some people here have done cross-research that finds out more men are being killed in their intimate relationships than women. But who cares? Here a man's life has little value.

I think that it is common for pwBPD to go around the house shouting at their partner trying to prove their point in a circular argument with lots of accusations etc…

After paying close attention to your post, I got to the conclusion that you have a misconception about your own success. You think that the tools did it, but what I see is that threatening to call the police was the actual step that began to revert his behavior. I don't mean that the tools aren't useful, but they aren't enough.

You assumed that I'm JADEing, but that's not the case. Even because she always raises her voice when she is angry, and I HATE it, so I leave the room and avoid any sort of talking, but still she keeps rambling around for hours, all by herself.

Before entering this relationship, I had already read most of the top books on BPD, on relationships, etc., and I already had 7 years of experience with a BPD wife. So I know pretty well what the books recommend. The point is that none of the books tells you how to make living together work.

My previous wife did persecute me around the house, and I had already read all the books that could possibly help me with that.

My current wife does not persecute me by walking around the house because she has a specific walk phobia. So she remains in the same spot most of the time, but her shouts can be heard all over the house and by the neighbors as well. I can hear it from the elevator in the hall.

For the first year of my current relationship, I had it under control. Her shouting didn't last for long. My love for her made me able to handle all the conflicts she brought up. But then after labor, her aggressiveness got much worse. So living together became no longer worth it for me. As I stepped away, she got even more abusive. When it gets to this point and you keep being abused, your capacity to help your partner with their struggles plummets.

For instance, you said that my response was a problem and suggested a different one:
My original response: "No, I have already given you the power bank just now, so you can put it in the bag"
Your suggestion: "I cannot right now, I am bussy with something else right now, could you do it yourself?"

What made her angry:

She had been screaming and offending me the entire day, and she was still in the "entitled mode." So she was expecting me to help her out, because she wanted to feel taken care of, as if she had not done anything wrong that day. But she felt rejected when I said no. Having an anxiety crisis before leaving home is a very common issue, even if it was not for therapy. Part of that is because she has panic disorder. And I'm very good at helping her out with that, but at that moment I didn't want to be her caregiver at all. I was not busy at all. I just refused to treat her the way she wanted.