It may be over

[maxsterling]

Here I am again… returning to this discussion board when times are rough.  Don’t know if I want advice or just someone to listen

The long and short - W decided to go on a lesbian dating site a few weeks ago.  She didn’t tell me beforehand, and when she told me I was a bit naive to what she was saying. I thought it was just another social media site for people in the LGBTQ community.  Nonetheless, W befriended a woman there, and when she told me she was going to meet this woman, I thought she was asking if it was ok to meet someone from the internet who is a lesbian.  I didn’t understand there was a mutual attraction.   W then started talking about an open marriage.  I don’t think that is something that could work for me, especially involving a pwBPD.

Anyway, she went out with this woman twice.  I see was under the impression that we agreed to keeping things platonic between them until we could tall about it further.  Of course, that didn’t happen, and I told her in T today that I felt uncomfortable.  Of course, W disregulated.

W feels i am trapping her in this marriage and forcing her to be monogamous.  All I am asking for at the moment is time to weigh pros and cons.  There is a whole lot of background here that I won’t get into right now, but Nonetheless, I don’t see what is left of our relationship if she is also seeing someone else.  I feel like at that point I am no longer getting love or attention.

If anyone has advice or experience with poly relationships, i’d be interested to hear.  But right now for me this feels like a step too far.

.

[maxsterling]

I will add that I feel proud of myself for standing firm in a calm and respectable way because I usually roll over and go along with the things she wants.  I also feel good that when W disregulated in T session today, T used the same techniques people teach here for dealing with those situations.  And they didn’t work for a trained T much better that they work for me.  Just tells me that pwBPD are difficult to deal with even for professionals, and to be less hard on myself for contributing to the chaos.

[Notwendy]

Max, I think this comes down to you, your values, and boundaries.

Other people may have experience with poly relationships but what can work for one person doesn't necessarily work with others. If someone else finds that manageable, that doesn't mean you have to. From what I have heard- (and I don't have experience with this) is that a poly relationship is agreeable to all involved. However, this isn't currently a poly relationship. Your wife has entered a romantic relationship outside the marriage without you knowing.

You and your wife have been married in a monogomous relationship. She went on a dating site and didn't tell you and  began a romantic relationship with someone else. That's not being poly, it's infidelity.

IMHO, this is also a triangulation.  Likely, she got attention and that felt good and now the new person is painted "white" for now.

It's good that you didn't just give in but IMHO, more importantly- are your boundaries on this. If your value is that your marriage is monogomous- then whatever sexual orientation your wife is- she married you. Now she wants to change the terms of the marriage. If she doesn't want to keep the marriage monogomous, it's your choice whether or not to continue in this relationship.

What she's asking is to have both- you as the supportive husband and her affair partner. You aren't trapping her in the marriage and forcing her to be monogomous. You married with the intention of a monogomous relationship. She could decide to leave the marriage too- but you've been a support to her- she wants to have both.

This is not about whether or not one has tolerance or acceptance for LGBTQ. It's about crossing the line from friendship to more when someone is married and this applies to same sex and heterosexual relationships too.

A dating site is a dating site. It's not where you find just friends. If someone is in a monogomous marriage and they go on a dating site for either men or women, and enters into another relationship, this is a violation of the marriage agreement.

If I could draw on my own experience with my BPD mother, something like this would have been one of her projected "solutions" to her internal emotional distress and a new "identity" due to her poor sense of self and friend group. She didn't consider LGBTQ at the time because in her era, people were more closeted. In her era the women's movement was beginning- and so she embraced that- but more as an identity than in actions, but in general, none of her external focuses were effective as a solution to her BPD.

Although BPD mother threatened divorce from time to time, she didn't actually follow through with that. I don't know if there was infidelity or not. As to my father- he may have gotten upset about her behavior but he too, didn't follow through with a divorce. I don't know all the reasons why but I think one aspect is the push pull nature of the dynamics. There'd be a situation that was distressing like yours is now, but then, when BPD mother sensed she may have pushed too far, her behavior would settle, things would be calm again for a while and the sense of needing to do something would would be less.

The decision is actually yours Max. Is this a deal breaker for you? Or is this going to be one more wave to ride out? My guess is that the luster of the new person isn't going to be the solution your wife is seeking. She's going to realize at one point that her new paramour is human too, like you are, like everyone else is, and that all relationships can get complicated. It doesn't seem like she wants to leave the marriage.

Your part is to decide what you want to do. There's no right or wrong answer. What you can't control are your wife's feelings or actions about it. In any marriage, over time, we encounter people who we may find attractive. Our decision is what we do about it. It can happen that someone realizes they are same sex attracted years into a heterosexual marriage. Some couples work this out and for some, it can't work out. Some people remain together when there's infidelity, some don't.

Your part is to figure out your feelings and what your boundaries are.

[maxsterling]

Triangulation - didn’t think of it that way.  Yes, this is what I feel is happening, and why I feel an open relationship would not work with a pwBPD.  The two romantic partners woild never be on equal footing.  One is always white, the other black.  If she got into an argument with me, she runs to her.  And vice versa.  I don’t see how there would not be constant drama. 

It’s already happened.  She got really upset that the woman she is interested in had a date with another woman.  In other words, upset that this woman did not want to be monogamous.  I knew W was somewhat bisexual when we got married, but she hd basically told me that was in her past (the drug use part of her past).  I was trying to be empathetic to W’s confusion here, but the jealousy and double standard toward her new romantic interest was a a real eye opener. 

[Notwendy]

I knew W was somewhat bisexual when we got married, but she hd basically told me that was in her past (the drug use part of her past).  I was trying to be empathetic to W’s confusion here, but the jealousy and double standard toward her new romantic interest was a a real eye opener. 

You see now that her sexual orientation and her use of drugs are not in the past.

BPD affects all relationships. It's not a surprise that it impacts this new one too.

More importantly, you know how you feel about a third person in your relationship and can pay attention to that, because this actually is a third person in your relationship- whether it is male or female.

Take away the additional descriptors. These are not the main issue in the relationship.

At the core of this is monogomy. You can't control any one else. You can be empathetic to someone's gender confusion, and be an ally to someone who is LGBTQ and in addition, want to be in a monogomous romantic relationship. Regardless- if one person wants monogomy in a romantic relationship, and the other one doesn't- it's a problem whether it's a same sex orientation or not.

One difficult aspect of the kind of dynamics in your relationship is losing focus of your own feelings and thinking while buying into the pwBPD's emotional thinking. Your wife is not going to own her part in this situation. She will "rationalize"  it from her own victim perspective. ie, she isn't breaking the marital agreement- she will instead say you are forcing her to be monogomous and keeping her from discovering herself.

Fact is- she can do whatever she chooses, but there are consequences to actions. In a monogomous relationship, someone can stray- but the consequence may be the loss of the relationship. She wants the freedom and not the consequences. Why not? If people could do whatever they wanted with another attractive person and not have any consequences- maybe more people would do it? But that's not how a monogomous marriage usually works. There are consequences.

Truly- it's up to you to decide what your feelings are and what the consequences of your wife having outside relationships are going to be. That's a difficult situation.

[Notwendy]

To add- consequences can be of many kinds, not only divorce. One might be that the spouse would be hurt- which could deter someone from infidelity, or the financial aspect of divorce, or effect on family and children, and even the feeling of remorse, low self esteem from the act. There are many reasons people don't violate a monogomy.

One difference is that they choose not to. They don't see this as being "forced" into it. They value it and they don't wish to have consequences for it. They don't do it and don't want their spouse to do it.

Where you are possibly feeling confused is thinking your wanting monogomy in marriage is doing something wrong to your wife- like imposing this on her, not being empathetic to her wanting to explore her orientation rather than knowing your values and boundaries and choice of monogamy. There is nothing wrong with wanting a monogomous marriage.

The consequences at the moment are your feelings. You are feeling uncomfortable with what your wife wants to do. It may be that the choice of consequence becomes tolerating your discomfort rather than have your wife experience consequences of her actions.

You may want some time to weigh pros and cons, but that would be your choice to do so. She's going to do what she chooses. You don't really need to ask her for permission for you to think about this. Your thoughts and feelings are your own.

[ForeverDad]

I also feel good that when W disregulated in T session today, T used the same techniques people teach here for dealing with those situations.  And they didn’t work for a trained T much better that they work for me.  Just tells me that pwBPD are difficult to deal with even for professionals, and to be less hard on myself for contributing to the chaos.

I don't know any statistics but years ago it was often said that therapists with BPD patients often needed their own therapist.  PwBPD are not just trying patients, they're the most trying patients.

[zachira]

A decent therapist balances their case load with clients who are easier to treat and limits the number of overwhelming clients like ones with BPD so the the therapist does not burn out. Many therapists refuse to treat people with BPD. The problem with clients with BPD is they often go back and forth between liking and hating the therapist just like what occurs in close relationships that the person with BPD has. I would be suspicious of a therapist who only takes clients with BPD as the therapist could be using the clients to deal with their own struggles to manage their emotions. When I hired my last therapist, I asked her some questions about her own life. I wanted a therapist who was happily married, a good parent to her children, and around my age. She was the best therapist I ever had and did not project her own problems onto me.

[Notwendy]

I've been an opponent of appeasing and enabling- and a supporter of boundaries. One aspect of my parents' relationship that was puzzling to me was why did my father tolerate her behavior? It seemed to me that whatever she did, he just went along with it.

I gained more perspective on this in the later years of her life as I am the relative who was most involved with her elder care. (with boundaries still)

Emotionally, she seemed to be in constant turmoil, inside but to her, it appeared as a crisis- or needs, or a solution, external to her. However, by the time a reactive plan was placed, she'd be focused on something else. This was similar to how she'd seemingly always been- it was needing some new thing, some new "identity" or focus. These were external "reasons" for her emotions-  something besides her own feelings. We might react, to fix the issue- but it wasn't the solution.

Where this paralleled my situation with her was being involved with her care in her elder years. Her medical issues and emotional ones were addressed appropriately but it seemed she was frequently unsettled by something. Sometimes it was better to not get into a conflicting discussion with her. What appeared to me as my father being passive/appeasing now also sometimes may have been seeing that "this too shall pass".

You've also experienced times of crisis where your wife does something that seem intolerable. Yet, you also have a lot on your plate- you have kids, you are supporting the family and to respond with boundaries will elicit a response from your wife that you don't really wish to deal with. I think you've also experienced that if you look at these as individual events, they don't last very long and the "solution" doesn't either. The larger pattern- the series of external solutions that don't solve the issues is the result of her emotions.

My take on her latest interest is that this is one more of these "solutions" that also will pass in time. Whatever her issue is with the marriage, to her, must be something external. She thinks maybe it's because she'd rather be with a woman so she goes on a dating site. Here, she gains attention, interest, and this helps bolster her self esteem. There's the luster of a new interest. You see how short lived that was- this person isn't doing what she wants either.

There's a secondary gain to this. You react and your focus is on her. Now there's another conflict, crisis, and you are drawn into it. Now, the attention is on her and her feelings.

While my stance remains with boundaries and not enabling- another approach is to just let this pan out and see what happens. Discussing this may not be effective for you. If she could see your point of view she wouldn't have done it. You aren't "giving her permission" if you don't argue about it with her. You can simply say your wish is for monogamy, you don't want an open marriage but you aren't going to decide for her what she's going to do and then, not get into it with her more. 

It's very possible that this too shall pass. She will find out soon enough, if not already, that no person is perfect. It's also possible that she realizes that she is mainly attracted to women and if that's true, there's not much you can do about that.

[maxsterling]

Very helpful, Wendy.  Thank you.

Part of my problem is that I am naturally an open minded person.  But BPDw wants black and white.  My open mindedness says that I need to consider pros and cons and options.  So I tell her that I cannot say right now that I am opposed to the idea of an open marriage, but this is sudden and I need time to process.  W takes this as a “green light” and moves forward, placing me into a situation that goes against my open minded nature by having to Say “no”.  I feel forced into the black and white world.

It’s a mess.  But I need to remember she is the one wanting to make the relationship change.  She is the one applying the pressure.  I can tell her I need more time to process and that is ok.  She can interpret however she wants, and take the action she wants.

[Notwendy]

Very helpful, Wendy.  Thank you.

Part of my problem is that I am naturally an open minded person.  I feel forced into the black and white world.

It’s a mess.  But I need to remember she is the one wanting to make the relationship change.  She is the one applying the pressure. 

I can tell her I need more time to process and that is ok.  She can interpret however she wants, and take the action she wants.

One of the hardest things to do was to say "no" to my BPD mother. However, she'd sometimes push a boundary in increments to the point where I felt I had to say "no". Then, she'd react as if I had hurt her somehow. That felt terrible. I would not intentionally do something hurtful to my mother.

You wouldn't do something intentionally hurtful to your wife. Nobody wants to be the bad guy in the Karpman triangle with someone we care about, but I realized that, if I was going to have boundaries, I would have to also accept that she may think that way, (but that doesn't make it true).

Boundaries are about us, we can't control someone else. If marital fidelity is one of your values, you can't waver on it in your own actions. Your wife will do as she chooses.

Boundaries also involve knowing what is "you" and what isn't "you". It's possible to be firm about monogomy and also open minded about other people's choices but know they aren't for you. In a way, your wife may have perceived your being open minded as you not having objections to her having a same sex romantic relationship. Your wife has poor boundaries. If you also don't have clear boundaries, then it's unclear for both of you.

I think what is confusing here is the incremental shift from your wife having a female friend to having a romantic female friend. If this had been a male friend, perhaps your feelings, and where the line was crossed, would have been clearer to you. It's OK for your wife to have a friendship with other females. You can be open minded about having both gay and straight friends. It's an issue if your marriage is monogomous and the friendship becomes romantic.

While I don't personally agree with the extent of what my father tolerated, it also wasn't my relationship to decide on or understand. I know it took a lot for him to be in the relationship. It also would have taken a lot for him to get out of it and also I think he knew how emotionally fragile my mother was. I see some similarities to your position here. On one hand, this could be a deal breaker but you may not wish to go in that direction at this time.

From what I can see- I don't think you are OK with an open marriage. Where you need time to process, is what you decide you wish to do about her request. You can still keep your value about monogamy for yourself.

My best wild guess is that "this too shall pass" and if it doesn't- then her sexual orientation isn't anything you could have done differently to change.

[GaGrl]

In his first marriage to a uBPD/NPD woman, she began affairs about 18 months after the marriage. The marriage became "open," not because he agreed but because he chose not to leave because of the children. At one point, there was some doubt as to whether he was the bio father of one of the children, but fortunately we now know he is.

During one of their conversations about her sexual behavior, she said,

"I know it's wrong, and I know it hurts you, but it's what I want, so I'm going to do it."

That summed it up. She's now in her 60s and continues the same behavior.

[Notwendy]

"I know it's wrong, and I know it hurts you, but it's what I want, so I'm going to do it."

I think that sums up this kind of thinking. I think a lot of BPD behavior is about them, driven by their own emotions and thinking, and not as personal to the other person. Our ability to do anything about it is limited. Our part is to decide what we are going to do about it.

I learned that boundaries are best expressed in "I" terms. What am I going to do, rather than "you" terms.

Once a boundary is stated, there's no point in continuing circular discussions. The next steps are your own actions.

This would be an example of the boundary in "I"terms:

"I acknowlege that you wish to have an open marriage. I have thought about this and I don't want to have an open marriage".

Her reply: "you are forcing monogamy on me".

Your reply: "Monogamy in marriage is an important value to me. I am not going to have a relationship with someone outside the marriage. I don't agree with your wish to do so,  but I also don't control what you do. This is my answer. I don't wish to discuss this idea further."

Then you don't discuss it more.

She may react, make you the problem. All you did was state your boundary for yourself.

I think she knows that what she is doing isn't according to the marriage you both entered into. Pw BPD have a difficult time with the emotion of shame. To handle this- she has to have you be the one in the wrong.

Your fidelity, your ethics, may irk her because she may want you to do this, or agree to it to justify her own actions. You keep your own boundary in check for yourself. My 2 cents- if you were to do the same, have a relationship with another person, I think she'd react very poorly to that but it's not worth the complication or effect on your own self esteem to violate your own values to do so.

I am saying this on the premise you are not going to divorce your wife over this at this point. Nor do you want to have an open marriage. So there's no point in continued circular discussions over this or therapy sessions. That just gives attention to it and it's not going to change what she chooses. If you hold your ground, this puts the decision back in her court. It's hers, not yours.

[maxsterling]

Really helpful advice here.  The “conversion” right now is as follows:

- i should have known she was this way when I married her.
- i am depriving her of who she is.
- she doesn’t want to hurt me or break up our family.
- I don’t go along with this because I have been brainwashed by society for having traditional monogamy views.
- if i don’t go along with this I am controlling her and she might as well kill herself.
-if I file for divorce she won’t except 50/50 parenting time and if that is awarded she might as well kill herself

It’s clear blame shifting to avoid her own shame.  I think on a deep level is bringing up shame from her past.  She may be realizing her failure in previous relationships was due to her inability to be monogamous.

But here’s another big red flag - she has been reading a book about open relationships, and I think that is validating for her, and where her language about me being brainwashed by society came from.  The red flag is that the woman she is interested in pointed to her book.  So while W claims the other woman is not trying to break up our marriage, clearly that is bit the case.

[SuperDaddy]

Hi maxsterling ,

Firstly, please check those quotes from this study (full PDF version):

- "BPD-associated symptoms, such as substance abuse, anorexia, self-injury, depersonalization, and sexual overstimulation, can be treated successfully with opioid receptor antagonists."
- "Frequent and risky sexual contacts and attention-seeking behavior can be explained by efforts to make use of the rewarding effects of human attachment mediated by the EOS, which are also the reason why patients show frantic efforts to avoid abandonment."

In my opinion, all of that is part of a hypersexual behavior that targets stimulating her EOS. It's the same for my wife.

My wife has never been bisexual or anything like that. However, in the beginning of our relationship I noticed she was watching porn videos every day and lying about it. Then I noticed some of the titles indicated they were lesbian videos, but not all. I questioned her about that behavior and asked if she was not satisfied sexually in our relationship. She was having multiple orgasms with me, so I was intrigued. Shortly after, she stopped watching the videos.

Recently, years later, I have noticed she is doing this again, but now she watches only lesbian videos. My conclusion is that she feels like watching lesbian videos is a way of fulfilling her hypersexual stimulation without having to deal with the guilt of doing something unfaithful. Because she knows that her watching lesbian videos does not make me feel uncomfortable and that I would even be ok if she had an actual lesbian relationship. But that's me.


Secondly, I'd suggest you read the "Sex at Dawn" book. It explains how humans were primarily non-monogamous before the advent of agriculture. This has helped me to understand what jealousy is, allowing me to take full control over those feelings.

Soon after reading this book, I had an open relationship, and it was great, but both of us were more in the exploration zone rather than trying to build a family. An open marriage (polyamory) is much more serious and requires complete honesty from both parties and also requires both to have "nerves of steel" (well, at least for the partner who is being "supplanted" by someone else).


Conclusion:

Have you ever asked her why she is seeking a female partner instead of a male partner? Have you asked her what she would think if you also had a secondary partner?

Personally, I'd think that having a lesbian affair instead of a heterosexual affair is, from her perspective, a midterm solution to have her EOS stimulated without overly insulting you. From my interpretation of that study, I believe an opioid receptor antagonist medication could possibly put an end to her need to follow this path. And I would think that this is more likely to happen if specialized therapy is done along with the medication.

[maxsterling]

Superdaddy -

Interesting.

One comment is that a double standard definitely exists here.  She is already jealous and possessive of this potential love interest for not being monogamous herself.  She says it would be fine for me to date someone else, but I suspect that reply is a self-justification of her own desires.  Really, if I was to date other women, there wouldn’t be much point in remaining married.  W doesn’t provide much to this R/s as it is.  Plus, it would not be fair to any new partner.

[Notwendy]

Really helpful advice here.  The “conversion” right now is as follows:

- i should have known she was this way when I married her.
- i am depriving her of who she is.
- she doesn’t want to hurt me or break up our family.
- I don’t go along with this because I have been brainwashed by society for having traditional monogamy views.
- if i don’t go along with this I am controlling her and she might as well kill herself.

Do you believe any of this?

[Notwendy]

Take a step back from the subject content and look at the behavior pattern. IMHO, every one of these statements are based on your wife's feelings and a solution isn't reached by discussions. These are leads into circular arguments. This is the kind of thing BPD mother would do when she's focused on something as the "solution" for her. Often she'd persist and persist until my father (or us kids) would just say "yes" to get her to stop. This led to agreeing to things we would not ordinarily agree to, just to end it.

Everyone wants what they want- that's not unusual, but we don't go about it this way. People usually weight the pros and cons of these wants. Your wife wants what she wants, and this is how she gets it. Chances are, you give in too, just to get the situation to resolve, and so this works for her.

Rather than focus on the content of what she's saying- look at these statements as potential circular arguments. Discussing these has no resolution. It would all be JADE to do so. What will stop them is a "yes" to her request. But it seems you don't want to agree to this, so now what?

Just stop talking about it and stop focusing on it. This is adding attention to it and that is a reinforcer. One can be "addicted" to drama. No good will come out of a discussion on this topic. She wants what she wants, and you have your own feelings about it.

It's possible the other woman doesn't want to break up your marriage. If she's not monogamous herself, she may have looked on the dating site for someone else who is in a relationship. To her defense- it's your wife who put herself out there on the dating site. This woman may have assumed your wife was in an open relationship if she's married and on a dating site.

That concept is not new. A book about open marriage came out in the 1970's, along with books on all kinds of new ideas about sex and relationships. If open marriage is a choice, so is monogamy. Choosing what you can manage is not being brainwashed. Where your wife's boundaries are not clear- she wants you to feel like she does. But two people don't always feel the same way about things.

My own take on this is that she's going to do what she wants to do. IMHO, I'd stop the discussion, saying- "I don't agree with this but we are both adults who make their own choices here" and "I don't wish to discuss this further" and then don't engage in these discussions. I think this is one more "crisis" driven by her feelings and it will probably fizzle if you don't add fuel to it. If she really wants to explore with this woman, she's going to do it anyway.

[Pook075]

As a Christian, I believe that marriage is two striving together to become one in everything.  I'm not trying to turn this into a religious topic or insert my religious beliefs here, other than to point out that adding someone else to the relationship generally goes against what most would perceive as a marriage (religious or secular).

Even in marriages at a courthouse, I've frequently heard something like, "To have and to hold, in sickness and in health, until death do us part."  The state views the conditions you describe as adultery, so I don't see how it's acceptable in any way. 

Of course, you have the final say in that but since you're here, it doesn't sound like you're too happy with it either.  That alone should tell you something in regards to figuring out where you stand.

Although it goes against my beliefs, I would ask my wife if she was okay if I started dating others as well.  Her reaction would tell me where the marriage stood and if I should continue to try.  If she said, "Sure, go sleep around," then that would be the end for me.  If she said, "Why on Earth would you think it's okay to ask me that, heck no you can't!" then maybe the marriage was worth fighting for.

I wish you luck!

[Notwendy]

Although it goes against my beliefs, I would ask my wife if she was okay if I started dating others as well.  Her reaction would tell me where the marriage stood and if I should continue to try.  If she said, "Sure, go sleep around," then that would be the end for me.  If she said, "Why on Earth would you think it's okay to ask me that, heck no you can't!" then maybe the marriage was worth fighting for.

I wouldn't say my BPD mother was unethical, but it was more like she knew the "rules" but it was that they applied to other people, but not to her. For example, while I was raised with rules about lying, that it was wrong, somehow BPD mother could lie, but there'd be discipline if I did. Still, my BPD mother had some limits. She would not have engaged in criminal behavior. It was more about getting her emotional needs met. Sometimes she would lie deliberately and other times, I think she believed that what she was saying was true.

I think it's similar to the double standard for your wife who is upset that the woman she's in contact with is not monogamous, while she isn't either.

I think if you asked your wife the question-  could you date other people, your wife may say "yes" in the moment, in order to get an agreement on her wanting to date other people. In the moment, she may actually mean it. However, should you actually do it, she'd go ballistic. Also, she'd not ever forgive you for it. It would be mentioned in arguments from that day forward.

Why? Because it fuels her victim perspective. One more reason that you are the bad guy in this situation. And because it would increase her fear of abandonment.

She doesn't want to lose the marriage. She wants to be able to date and be married to you too. In the moment. However, the reality of what she wants to do would not compare to her imagined feelings about how it would be. None of the "solutions" do.

What Pook mentioned is his value, his boundary. It can be based on core beliefs, and also what works for you, what you can manage. If you believe adultery is wrong, then don't do it, even if your wife does or says you can. You would be letting yourself down.. Even if you didn't believe it was wrong, there are solid reasons not to do it. It would at the least, add drama and complications to your situation.