extended family complications

[wantmorepeace]

Hello.  Have any of you ever dealt with a situation in which an uBPD from your family of origin is in conflict with one of your grown children?  If so, how have you handled that?  Thank you.

[Pook075]

I had that happen quite often, but there's also a lot of BPD on my ex-wife's side of the family.  In general, I did not become involved unless there was no other option because my young adult kids need to learn to handle things on their own.

I think it really depends on the circumstance though and what's going on.  Could you give us a little more detail with what your grown child is facing?

[wantmorepeace]

My sibling is now getting into the same kind of conflicts with my daughter (in her 20s) that she gets into with others.  And she's trying to get in the middle of the mother-daughter relationship -- wanting to tell me her side of the story, wanting to tell me how wrong my daughter is, wanting me to tell her what my daughter has said -- and all the while exaggerating and misleading and making herself the victim.  I'm not going for it, but it definitely feels like a whole new level of challenge.

[Pook075]

My sibling is now getting into the same kind of conflicts with my daughter (in her 20s) that she gets into with others.  And she's trying to get in the middle of the mother-daughter relationship -- wanting to tell me her side of the story, wanting to tell me how wrong my daughter is, wanting me to tell her what my daughter has said -- and all the while exaggerating and misleading and making herself the victim.  I'm not going for it, but it definitely feels like a whole new level of challenge.

In that situation, I'd listen to your sister and thank her for the concerns.  Regardless if she's right or wrong, let her be heard and feel appreciated.  Then you can just dismiss it or whatever you want to do.

Meanwhile, I would speak to my daughter and let her know that your sister is struggling and a little distance would probably be best for everyone.  Explain that your sister gets overly emotional at times and takes small things personally.  If it's necessary, ask your daughter to apologize "for hurting her aunt's feelings." 

Not what was said, not all the other stuff, but a simple, "I'm so sorry if what I said hurt your feelings.  I would never want that or do anything like that intentionally"

[Notwendy]

This triangulation was also common in my family of origin. For me, Karpman triangle dynamics helped to explain the behavior. BPD mother was in "victim" perspective. She seemed to perceive people as being "on her side" or "not her side". If she had conflict with one person- she'd then attempt to gain others to her side.

It's good that you see the potential harm in this kind of behavior. One reason there's conflict with your 20 year old D is that your D is an adult and likely less compliant with her aunt, or also has become the one your sister "projects" to.

You can't control what your sister does but your family- you need to maintain the close connections and boundaries on your sister's intrusion. The best "defense" is not about your sister, it's your family bonds.

For example, my BPD mother didn't like my father's sister and would say things about her sometimes. However, had a good relationship with my aunt. What was said didn't make a difference.

My BPD mother was able to create distance between family members and me when she was angry at me. For me, this felt devastating. The solution though is to maintain strong bonds with the people in your family.

Since your sister is interfering between you, your wife, and your D there needs to be some firm boundaries. For us, they included- if we visited, or spoke to BPD mother on the phone- it was in the presence of others. This boundary helped to protect my own children from triangulation. As adult children, they decided their own.

Each of you- your wife, your D and you, can decide to not participate in conversations where your sister is trianguating.

[wantmorepeace]

Thank you for these thoughtful responses.  They are thought-provoking for me.

I should clarify that I'm the mother here -- no wife involved, only a husband who also gets blamed for a lot but luckily is super thick-skinned.  My daughter knows about my sister's condition and has put up with a lot from her because of it.  She finally decided that she was going to speak up about some things that really upset her.  I turn the other cheek all the time, but it doesn't seem to me to be fair to tell my daughter that she needs to choose to do the same. 

And I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of listening to my sister bad mouth my daughter --- also seems like a slippery slope to getting pulled in.

But perhaps there are options I'm missing....

[CC43]

My sibling is now getting into the same kind of conflicts with my daughter (in her 20s) that she gets into with others.  And she's trying to get in the middle of the mother-daughter relationship -- wanting to tell me her side of the story, wanting to tell me how wrong my daughter is, wanting me to tell her what my daughter has said -- and all the while exaggerating and misleading and making herself the victim.

Hi there,

My standard response to conversations that turn too negative, falsely accusatory, unsolvable or going nowhere good is to say something like, "Let's talk about something else."  If they continue with their grievances, I'll say something stronger, such as, "I'm not comfortable talking about this, if you continue I'll have to hang up/leave the room," or maybe, "This is between you and my daughter, I don't want to be in the middle, I'm not discussing it further."  And if your sibling STILL doesn't take the hint, when she continues, you hang up or leave the room (Gotta go, bye / Gotta check the laundry).  I call this the Three Strikes rule.  Basically, you don't "feed" the simmering drama with your attention, let alone your input (which your disordered sister would probably use against you anyway).  I think it's completely fair to apply this rule because the conflict is making you upset, and you need to call time out, to get a break.  Ostensibly it's about you needing a break, but really your sister needs one to cool off.  How does that sound?

There's an acronym we use here when a pwBPD is getting all riled up--not to JADE, which is short for Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.  JADEing doesn't work well with BPD, because you're responding with logic to a problem that is all emotional for her.  I find a "time out" works much better.

Just my two cents.

[Notwendy]

Thank you for these thoughtful responses.  They are thought-provoking for me.

I should clarify that I'm the mother here -- no wife involved, only a husband who also gets blamed for a lot but luckily is super thick-skinned.  My daughter knows about my sister's condition and has put up with a lot from her because of it.  She finally decided that she was going to speak up about some things that really upset her.  I turn the other cheek all the time, but it doesn't seem to me to be fair to tell my daughter that she needs to choose to do the same. 

And I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of listening to my sister bad mouth my daughter --- also seems like a slippery slope to getting pulled in.

But perhaps there are options I'm missing....

I agree. It was invalidating to be expected by the adults in the family to tolerate my BPD mother's behavior and I didn't expect my children to do that.

It's the adult's role to protect the children, and once the children are adults, to allow them to protect themselves.

The nuance for me was finding the difference between respectful behavior to a relative and tolerating unaccptable behavior- and finding a boundary between them.

I can understant listening to a pwBPD's concern about a family member, if it was a genuine concern but with my BPD mother it was triangulation. It's also unethical to say unfounded negative things about another person and it is not being respectful to them or the person being badmouthed to enable that.

However, when dealing with a pwBPD, we also want to avoid fueling the drama. Sometimes the statements are about getting an emotional response. One option is to "grey rock". If you respond with emotion, or defend your D, or say why your sister is wrong about your D, it is adding fuel to the drama and in a way validating it. "Grey rock" is to not react and to disengage from the conversation in a non confrontational way.

In my situation, my BPD mother would "vent" her concerns to me about my sibling. I also knew she would vent about me to other people. This was Karpman triangle dynamics. I did listen to her for a while, assuming this was being respectful but them decided this was enabling this and so stated "I don't wish to discuss my sibling's personal issues, this is between the two of you". If she persisted, I found a reason to end the conversations "Mom there's someone at the door- I'll speak to you later" or change the subject. Eventually, not being a listener decreased her doing this with me. I then did this if she began to do this with me about other family members.

With my children, I wanted them to behave respectfully to their grandmother- to respect the relationship and because it was the decent thing to do. I also let them know they can have their own boundaries as teens and adults. One adult child felt comfortable with a relationship with her by text and phone (my kids didn't live near her). Another one, she did something hurtful to, and that child decided to not have contact if she called or text. In her presence, the kids were respectful.

The "turn the other cheek" is about non- retaliation with hurtful behavior. It doesn't mean one has to allow a person to be emotionally, verbally, or physically abusive, or have any self defense, or to expect a child to do so. To me, it means that if BPD mother says or does something hurtful, I should not do something hurtful back at her, but I can have boundaries and so can my children.

Not triangulating with my mother didn't mean I didn't ever discuss family members with her but if I got the sense she was asking me to speak for them, or get them to do something she wanted, I would turn it back to her saying "I don't know, it would be better if you asked them, or I don't know, this is between you and them.

[Notwendy]

I meant "or not have any self defense".

It was extremely difficult for me if my mother said things to me about my father- after he had passed.

It was a very difficult grief for me. I wanted to keep the memories of him as I remembered them, not through BPD mother's narrations.

This was a firm "no" from me, and I told her "I don't wish to discuss my father with you".

Her response- in victim mode -"You mean I am not allowed to speak about my husband?" as if somehow I was doing that to her?

I replied- You can speak about your husband all you want, to anyone you want, but I am not going to listen to it.

Boundaries are not about the other person and this one wasn't about her. It's that this was that it was too much for me, it was hurtful.

[wantmorepeace]

So helpful. Thank you.

[Notwendy]

I should clarify that I'm the mother here --

I must have assumed you were the father since my BPD mother had issues with my father's sister.

It may be significant that you are female. My BPD mother seemed to project more and have friction with female family members. I think it may be because females are more similar, and so a pwBPD may project their own feelings about self image on to someone with more similarities. They may also feel a sense of competition or comparison with other females more than male. (their own feelings- not that other females are actually competing with them).

My BPD mother would say things about the other female relatives as if somehow they had something "wrong". Perhaps this felt validating to her? I don't know if your sister has her own family but perhaps, by finding fault with your D, and therefore you and your family, it somehow feels more validating to her if she's having relationship issues.

Whatever your sister's reasons, you don't have to participate in or validate her misperceptions but also trying to JADE - argue that she's wrong may just add to the drama. We can't change someone else's thinking but we can choose to not add emotion to it- and just grey rock, change subject, disengage, if she brings it up.

[Pook075]

And I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of listening to my sister bad mouth my daughter --- also seems like a slippery slope to getting pulled in.

But perhaps there are options I'm missing....

I apologize if my reply came off that way- I wouldn't listen to anyone bad-mouth my daughter.  What I meant was, if your sister wants to "cry victim" then let her cry.  Her complaints are about how she feels and not necessarily what happened, which you likely know from all the other relative interactions that were damaged.  

I would rather someone come to me, especially with my understanding of mental illness, than have them confront my daughter who's likely to tell that person off and make things considerably worse.  That's just my opinion though.

[wantmorepeace]

I am grateful for all the feedback, no apologies necessary.  We are all just doing our best here, trying to support each other and ourselves. Plus it's helpful to experience when something doesn't quite resonate as right for my situation.  And truly, I didn't give enough information about that situation.  I wonder whether I am the only one on the board who feels (irrationally, clearly) like I am betraying my uBPD if I write too much detail here and (more irrationally, still) has the paranoid delusion that if I write too much detail, she'll somehow get on this board, read my posts, recognize our interactions in my posts and then come after me!  SMH

You are all so helpful to me. At some point, I'll write more about this situation.  I need to stop now.
'

[Notwendy]

I am grateful for all the feedback, no apologies necessary.  We are all just doing our best here, trying to support each other and ourselves. Plus it's helpful to experience when something doesn't quite resonate as right for my situation.  And truly, I didn't give enough information about that situation.  I wonder whether I am the only one on the board who feels (irrationally, clearly) like I am betraying my uBPD if I write too much detail here and (more irrationally, still) has the paranoid delusion that if I write too much detail, she'll somehow get on this board, read my posts, recognize our interactions in my posts and then come after me!  SMH

You are all so helpful to me. At some point, I'll write more about this situation.  I need to stop now.
'

You are not the only one. If I speak to anyone about my BPD mother, it feels to me as if I am betraying her. Mostly, I don't- except to a therapist or my sibling who also is aware of the situation. I also don't want to come across as badmouthing her and feel it's not OK to publically expose anyone's issues.

On this board, and I encourage others to do the same- I don't reveal so much information that the person can be identified specifically. Most of our situations are not unique to us and so the issue could be with anyone. I'd say to anyone to not reveal more than you are comfortable with. The dynamics are often common and details aren't necessary.

As a reply to Pook's suggestion, I think it depends on both people. Pook- you are skilled at this but not everyone is. If the daughter doesn't have effective relationship skills, helping her with how to respond to the pwBPD can be helpful. If they are going to have a circular blow up with no resolution, then perhaps intervening at first is a good start but ultimately- this is their relationship to manage as they choose as adults. It's going to go the way it will.

For me, I feel I was expected to not have boundaries with my BPD mother and to tolerate her behavior in order to keep the peace. This wasn't the case for my children. They had boundaries. I didn't want to diminish their own natural inclination to not tolerate hurtful behavior from anyone. This is normal boundaries. However, they also knew how to behave respectfully to a grandparent and would not have been rude in return.

It also wasn't their role to be an emotional caretaker for my mother, which had been an expectation for us. I realized this was "normalcy" for them. I didn't want to undo it. So if someone was being hurtful to them, they had every right to tell them to leave them alone. With my mother, they chose how much contact they wanted and when/if to respond to her texts/calls rather than to directly confront her because we all knew that confronting her was not effective.

It's also normal consequences. If we treat someone poorly, they may not want to have a relationship with us. This begins even in kindergarten. Nobody wants to play with the bully on the playground. However, with my mother, there were no consequences in the immediate family as we walked on eggshells around her. So if someone else were to tell her off, it may be a normal consequence, even if it led to more drama.