extended family complications

[wantmorepeace]

Hello.  Have any of you ever dealt with a situation in which an uBPD from your family of origin is in conflict with one of your grown children?  If so, how have you handled that?  Thank you.

[Pook075]

I had that happen quite often, but there's also a lot of BPD on my ex-wife's side of the family.  In general, I did not become involved unless there was no other option because my young adult kids need to learn to handle things on their own.

I think it really depends on the circumstance though and what's going on.  Could you give us a little more detail with what your grown child is facing?

[wantmorepeace]

My sibling is now getting into the same kind of conflicts with my daughter (in her 20s) that she gets into with others.  And she's trying to get in the middle of the mother-daughter relationship -- wanting to tell me her side of the story, wanting to tell me how wrong my daughter is, wanting me to tell her what my daughter has said -- and all the while exaggerating and misleading and making herself the victim.  I'm not going for it, but it definitely feels like a whole new level of challenge.

[Pook075]

My sibling is now getting into the same kind of conflicts with my daughter (in her 20s) that she gets into with others.  And she's trying to get in the middle of the mother-daughter relationship -- wanting to tell me her side of the story, wanting to tell me how wrong my daughter is, wanting me to tell her what my daughter has said -- and all the while exaggerating and misleading and making herself the victim.  I'm not going for it, but it definitely feels like a whole new level of challenge.

In that situation, I'd listen to your sister and thank her for the concerns.  Regardless if she's right or wrong, let her be heard and feel appreciated.  Then you can just dismiss it or whatever you want to do.

Meanwhile, I would speak to my daughter and let her know that your sister is struggling and a little distance would probably be best for everyone.  Explain that your sister gets overly emotional at times and takes small things personally.  If it's necessary, ask your daughter to apologize "for hurting her aunt's feelings." 

Not what was said, not all the other stuff, but a simple, "I'm so sorry if what I said hurt your feelings.  I would never want that or do anything like that intentionally"

[Notwendy]

This triangulation was also common in my family of origin. For me, Karpman triangle dynamics helped to explain the behavior. BPD mother was in "victim" perspective. She seemed to perceive people as being "on her side" or "not her side". If she had conflict with one person- she'd then attempt to gain others to her side.

It's good that you see the potential harm in this kind of behavior. One reason there's conflict with your 20 year old D is that your D is an adult and likely less compliant with her aunt, or also has become the one your sister "projects" to.

You can't control what your sister does but your family- you need to maintain the close connections and boundaries on your sister's intrusion. The best "defense" is not about your sister, it's your family bonds.

For example, my BPD mother didn't like my father's sister and would say things about her sometimes. However, had a good relationship with my aunt. What was said didn't make a difference.

My BPD mother was able to create distance between family members and me when she was angry at me. For me, this felt devastating. The solution though is to maintain strong bonds with the people in your family.

Since your sister is interfering between you, your wife, and your D there needs to be some firm boundaries. For us, they included- if we visited, or spoke to BPD mother on the phone- it was in the presence of others. This boundary helped to protect my own children from triangulation. As adult children, they decided their own.

Each of you- your wife, your D and you, can decide to not participate in conversations where your sister is trianguating.

[wantmorepeace]

Thank you for these thoughtful responses.  They are thought-provoking for me.

I should clarify that I'm the mother here -- no wife involved, only a husband who also gets blamed for a lot but luckily is super thick-skinned.  My daughter knows about my sister's condition and has put up with a lot from her because of it.  She finally decided that she was going to speak up about some things that really upset her.  I turn the other cheek all the time, but it doesn't seem to me to be fair to tell my daughter that she needs to choose to do the same. 

And I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of listening to my sister bad mouth my daughter --- also seems like a slippery slope to getting pulled in.

But perhaps there are options I'm missing....

[CC43]

My sibling is now getting into the same kind of conflicts with my daughter (in her 20s) that she gets into with others.  And she's trying to get in the middle of the mother-daughter relationship -- wanting to tell me her side of the story, wanting to tell me how wrong my daughter is, wanting me to tell her what my daughter has said -- and all the while exaggerating and misleading and making herself the victim.

Hi there,

My standard response to conversations that turn too negative, falsely accusatory, unsolvable or going nowhere good is to say something like, "Let's talk about something else."  If they continue with their grievances, I'll say something stronger, such as, "I'm not comfortable talking about this, if you continue I'll have to hang up/leave the room," or maybe, "This is between you and my daughter, I don't want to be in the middle, I'm not discussing it further."  And if your sibling STILL doesn't take the hint, when she continues, you hang up or leave the room (Gotta go, bye / Gotta check the laundry).  I call this the Three Strikes rule.  Basically, you don't "feed" the simmering drama with your attention, let alone your input (which your disordered sister would probably use against you anyway).  I think it's completely fair to apply this rule because the conflict is making you upset, and you need to call time out, to get a break.  Ostensibly it's about you needing a break, but really your sister needs one to cool off.  How does that sound?

There's an acronym we use here when a pwBPD is getting all riled up--not to JADE, which is short for Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.  JADEing doesn't work well with BPD, because you're responding with logic to a problem that is all emotional for her.  I find a "time out" works much better.

Just my two cents.

[Notwendy]

Thank you for these thoughtful responses.  They are thought-provoking for me.

I should clarify that I'm the mother here -- no wife involved, only a husband who also gets blamed for a lot but luckily is super thick-skinned.  My daughter knows about my sister's condition and has put up with a lot from her because of it.  She finally decided that she was going to speak up about some things that really upset her.  I turn the other cheek all the time, but it doesn't seem to me to be fair to tell my daughter that she needs to choose to do the same. 

And I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of listening to my sister bad mouth my daughter --- also seems like a slippery slope to getting pulled in.

But perhaps there are options I'm missing....

I agree. It was invalidating to be expected by the adults in the family to tolerate my BPD mother's behavior and I didn't expect my children to do that.

It's the adult's role to protect the children, and once the children are adults, to allow them to protect themselves.

The nuance for me was finding the difference between respectful behavior to a relative and tolerating unaccptable behavior- and finding a boundary between them.

I can understant listening to a pwBPD's concern about a family member, if it was a genuine concern but with my BPD mother it was triangulation. It's also unethical to say unfounded negative things about another person and it is not being respectful to them or the person being badmouthed to enable that.

However, when dealing with a pwBPD, we also want to avoid fueling the drama. Sometimes the statements are about getting an emotional response. One option is to "grey rock". If you respond with emotion, or defend your D, or say why your sister is wrong about your D, it is adding fuel to the drama and in a way validating it. "Grey rock" is to not react and to disengage from the conversation in a non confrontational way.

In my situation, my BPD mother would "vent" her concerns to me about my sibling. I also knew she would vent about me to other people. This was Karpman triangle dynamics. I did listen to her for a while, assuming this was being respectful but them decided this was enabling this and so stated "I don't wish to discuss my sibling's personal issues, this is between the two of you". If she persisted, I found a reason to end the conversations "Mom there's someone at the door- I'll speak to you later" or change the subject. Eventually, not being a listener decreased her doing this with me. I then did this if she began to do this with me about other family members.

With my children, I wanted them to behave respectfully to their grandmother- to respect the relationship and because it was the decent thing to do. I also let them know they can have their own boundaries as teens and adults. One adult child felt comfortable with a relationship with her by text and phone (my kids didn't live near her). Another one, she did something hurtful to, and that child decided to not have contact if she called or text. In her presence, the kids were respectful.

The "turn the other cheek" is about non- retaliation with hurtful behavior. It doesn't mean one has to allow a person to be emotionally, verbally, or physically abusive, or have any self defense, or to expect a child to do so. To me, it means that if BPD mother says or does something hurtful, I should not do something hurtful back at her, but I can have boundaries and so can my children.

Not triangulating with my mother didn't mean I didn't ever discuss family members with her but if I got the sense she was asking me to speak for them, or get them to do something she wanted, I would turn it back to her saying "I don't know, it would be better if you asked them, or I don't know, this is between you and them.

[Notwendy]

I meant "or not have any self defense".

It was extremely difficult for me if my mother said things to me about my father- after he had passed.

It was a very difficult grief for me. I wanted to keep the memories of him as I remembered them, not through BPD mother's narrations.

This was a firm "no" from me, and I told her "I don't wish to discuss my father with you".

Her response- in victim mode -"You mean I am not allowed to speak about my husband?" as if somehow I was doing that to her?

I replied- You can speak about your husband all you want, to anyone you want, but I am not going to listen to it.

Boundaries are not about the other person and this one wasn't about her. It's that this was that it was too much for me, it was hurtful.