Lengthy update.

[Depression = 72% of members]

I don't think you can bet on BPD behavior on Kalshi yet, but if you could we would all be millionaires. 

BPDw told me early this year that she wanted to date women.  Or rather it started as she wanting an open relationship.  Not my thing, but I spent time contemplating the least stressful path out, as my stress level was already maxed.  Eventually I decided that if she latched on to someone else it would give me a little peace for awhile.  Also, we had not had a romantic relationship for years and I had little desire to have one at the time (things don't work romantically when you are under constant stress), so it's not like I was giving up much.

She obsessed over the idea of being with a woman and quickly found someone to latch on to.  It gave me some peace and quiet in my house.  Quickly she decided she needed her own place in order for this new relationship to blossom.  I suddenly was painted all the way black (couldn't stand even being around me), but I saw that as a blessing in disguise.

She found a new place down the street from her new partner and moved out before finding a job or a way to support it. She quickly found a job, but it did not start for a few months after she moved out.  I walked the line between helping/enabling and letting her figure stuff out, but that was complicated because I need to make sure the kids are also taken care of.  My limit to helping her went as far as making sure she had the basics to at least take care of the kids.  My motivation to help was to ensure the greatest chance for success in her new place.  My motivation to let her figure stuff out was also to ensure the greatest chance for success, but also to give me peace.  We agreed on an informal arrangement with the kids, which she could never adhere to, so I wound up with the kids most of the time, and when she had the kids I could never fully trust that they were being taken care of - mainly because she would send me messages about not knowing what to feed the kids, not having food in her house, telling me she feels she is not capable, etc.

Quickly after moving out her new r/s fell apart in typical BPD fashion.  BPDw was obsessive, and new GF got a little freaked out.  That turned into a stalking situation, and new GF basically called her out as abusive and then deleted BPDw's number.  BPDw still kept trying to contact her for a few months.  End result was lots of drama for me and for the kids. 

After that, BPDw had a brief affair with a woman at her apartment building, who BPDw quickly painted black.  This was more drama, because the woman lived at her complex, and was the mom of kids that our kids liked to play with.  I don't know how pwBPD are so good at stepping in poop. 

Following that affair, it was the bi-weekly desire for BPD to move out and the 3am text messages to me about how she is so lonely she wants to die.  At this point she was barely capable of taking care of herself, and definitely not the kids. 

She was living a few miles away, but I needed to ensure daily that the kids were taken care of, such as having something to eat and clean clothes to wear.  W was basically feeling hopeless (and possibly suicidal) and wanting to move out.  I wasn't in a position to tell her she could not move back to the house without some legal maneuvering, and timing of such maneuvering felt a cruel given her potentially suicidal state.  The main issue was that I did not want to pursue divorce or legal separation until she started her new job as I did not want to leave her without health care options. 

Any psychiatric help would have to be initiated by her, so my hands were tied there. 

My hope was that her landlord would tell her she could not break her lease without substantial penalty, and I did what I could to discourage her from moving back to the house and encourage her to look for another place instead.  Unfortunately, her landlord was sick of her and was more than happy to let her move out ASAP (actually told her to move out at one point).  The reality is, without a partner she had no desire to have her own place.  Seeing how she acted towards other partners and her lack of the most basic self care (such as eating) when she was alone was a clear indicator that her 20 years as an adult before me was pretty much the same dependence upon others.  Very clear that she is not capable of taking care of herself even on a very basic dysfunctional level, and I doubt at age 50 she can gain enough emotional calmness to do so.  I've known other dysfunctional people before who can at least keep some kind of job and make decisions about eating or go to the grocery store or McDonalds when they are hungry.  W was not even capable of doing that.

While this was going on, the same job scenario was playing out.  Already hating her job after 2 weeks.  Hating her co workers, hating the students, hating the administration, threatening to quit nearly every day.  The things she described as happening did sound like an unpleasant work environment, but she has said nearly the same about every job she has had since I have known her.  The reality here is that if you wake up expecting to have a crappy day, you are going to have a crappy day.  Others are feeding off of her negative attitude, and it's guaranteed she is seeing things way worse than they are.  What she is complaining about how others treat her at her job is exactly the way she treats others.  She finds it an impossible work environment because students are cursing at her and saying disrespectful things yet can't figure out that is why so many of her family and friends quit talking to her.

So here are things now:  She moved back to the house a month ago.  Her landlord let her leave without penalty. We moved the kids to the same room, and she and I have separate rooms.  She has gone back to 12-step programs and has found a new therapist who is more than just a talk therapist.   She also quit her job today. 

Having separate rooms helps me.  Her being involved in 12-step programs also helps me, as it gives her another outlet.  But the experience the last few months has also made me realize that I am no longer going to hold out hope for "working on my marriage".  That is impossible.  I am going to do what I feel is best for the kids and for me without being disrespectful to her.  If she decided to move out again, I won't discourage her.  I feel no emotional attachment.  And I am going to do what is good for me, even if that is not what she wants me to do.  Again, the emotional attachment is gone.  There is little sense for trying to compromise anymore except when it comes to issues regarding childcare.  Should she move out again, I will be prepared to take legal action.  That's the lesson here - I can't expect her to ever be rational or emotionally calm enough to deal with in the same way I would deal with most everyone else in my life.  Being a "nice guy" doesn't work. 

But - things are working somewhat better - for now. 

 

[maxsterling]

I don't think you can bet on BPD behavior on Kalshi yet, but if you could we would all be millionaires. 

BPDw told me early this year that she wanted to date women.  Or rather it started as she wanting an open relationship.  Not my thing, but I spent time contemplating the least stressful path out, as my stress level was already maxed.  Eventually I decided that if she latched on to someone else it would give me a little peace for awhile.  Also, we had not had a romantic relationship for years and I had little desire to have one at the time (things don't work romantically when you are under constant stress), so it's not like I was giving up much.

She obsessed over the idea of being with a woman and quickly found someone to latch on to.  It gave me some peace and quiet in my house.  Quickly she decided she needed her own place in order for this new relationship to blossom.  I suddenly was painted all the way black (couldn't stand even being around me), but I saw that as a blessing in disguise.

She found a new place down the street from her new partner and moved out before finding a job or a way to support it. She quickly found a job, but it did not start for a few months after she moved out.  I walked the line between helping/enabling and letting her figure stuff out, but that was complicated because I need to make sure the kids are also taken care of.  My limit to helping her went as far as making sure she had the basics to at least take care of the kids.  My motivation to help was to ensure the greatest chance for success in her new place.  My motivation to let her figure stuff out was also to ensure the greatest chance for success, but also to give me peace.  We agreed on an informal arrangement with the kids, which she could never adhere to, so I wound up with the kids most of the time, and when she had the kids I could never fully trust that they were being taken care of - mainly because she would send me messages about not knowing what to feed the kids, not having food in her house, telling me she feels she is not capable, etc.

Quickly after moving out her new r/s fell apart in typical BPD fashion.  BPDw was obsessive, and new GF got a little freaked out.  That turned into a stalking situation, and new GF basically called her out as abusive and then deleted BPDw's number.  BPDw still kept trying to contact her for a few months.  End result was lots of drama for me and for the kids. 

After that, BPDw had a brief affair with a woman at her apartment building, who BPDw quickly painted black.  This was more drama, because the woman lived at her complex, and was the mom of kids that our kids liked to play with.  I don't know how pwBPD are so good at stepping in poop. 

Following that affair, it was the bi-weekly desire for BPD to move out and the 3am text messages to me about how she is so lonely she wants to die.  At this point she was barely capable of taking care of herself, and definitely not the kids. 

She was living a few miles away, but I needed to ensure daily that the kids were taken care of, such as having something to eat and clean clothes to wear.  W was basically feeling hopeless (and possibly suicidal) and wanting to move out.  I wasn't in a position to tell her she could not move back to the house without some legal maneuvering, and timing of such maneuvering felt a cruel given her potentially suicidal state.  The main issue was that I did not want to pursue divorce or legal separation until she started her new job as I did not want to leave her without health care options. 

Any psychiatric help would have to be initiated by her, so my hands were tied there. 

My hope was that her landlord would tell her she could not break her lease without substantial penalty, and I did what I could to discourage her from moving back to the house and encourage her to look for another place instead.  Unfortunately, her landlord was sick of her and was more than happy to let her move out ASAP (actually told her to move out at one point).  The reality is, without a partner she had no desire to have her own place.  Seeing how she acted towards other partners and her lack of the most basic self care (such as eating) when she was alone was a clear indicator that her 20 years as an adult before me was pretty much the same dependence upon others.  Very clear that she is not capable of taking care of herself even on a very basic dysfunctional level, and I doubt at age 50 she can gain enough emotional calmness to do so.  I've known other dysfunctional people before who can at least keep some kind of job and make decisions about eating or go to the grocery store or McDonalds when they are hungry.  W was not even capable of doing that.

While this was going on, the same job scenario was playing out.  Already hating her job after 2 weeks.  Hating her co workers, hating the students, hating the administration, threatening to quit nearly every day.  The things she described as happening did sound like an unpleasant work environment, but she has said nearly the same about every job she has had since I have known her.  The reality here is that if you wake up expecting to have a crappy day, you are going to have a crappy day.  Others are feeding off of her negative attitude, and it's guaranteed she is seeing things way worse than they are.  What she is complaining about how others treat her at her job is exactly the way she treats others.  She finds it an impossible work environment because students are cursing at her and saying disrespectful things yet can't figure out that is why so many of her family and friends quit talking to her.

So here are things now:  She moved back to the house a month ago.  Her landlord let her leave without penalty. We moved the kids to the same room, and she and I have separate rooms.  She has gone back to 12-step programs and has found a new therapist who is more than just a talk therapist.   She also quit her job today. 

Having separate rooms helps me.  Her being involved in 12-step programs also helps me, as it gives her another outlet.  But the experience the last few months has also made me realize that I am no longer going to hold out hope for "working on my marriage".  That is impossible.  I am going to do what I feel is best for the kids and for me without being disrespectful to her.  If she decided to move out again, I won't discourage her.  I feel no emotional attachment.  And I am going to do what is good for me, even if that is not what she wants me to do.  Again, the emotional attachment is gone.  There is little sense for trying to compromise anymore except when it comes to issues regarding childcare.  Should she move out again, I will be prepared to take legal action.  That's the lesson here - I can't expect her to ever be rational or emotionally calm enough to deal with in the same way I would deal with most everyone else in my life.  Being a "nice guy" doesn't work. 

But - things are working somewhat better - for now. 

 

[zachira]

How old are your children?

[maxsterling]

The children are 9. 

[Notwendy]

Glad you posted an update. It seems it is working better with the two of you as room mates basically. Is this the plan, at least for now. You stated that if she moves out again, you would consider legal action but that leaves that decision up to her. You saw how that worked out and she isn't able to maintain herself on her own. Should she move out, it would likely be a similar situation as this is her capacity.

She also isn't able to hold a job, however, being on SSI disability, if the two of you weren't married, she would be eligible for Medicaid health insurance or disability Medicare so that concern may have a solution.

However, the idea of your wife- or if it were your ex wife, and the mother of your children being unable to manage on her own is understandbly a concern. I think in the case of divorce, there would be alimony and whether or not that impacts Medicaid/Medicare eligibity, I don't know, but getting SSI would be in that favor.

I think this was also something my father was concerned about, although I was not aware of the extent of my mother's difficulty with functioning until later. The kids are 9, they aren't able to fully comprehend it either. However, you are right that taking on the parenting is in their best interest. Your wife isn't capable of that. My father took that on too, and I can see why he did it. The silver lining to this is that we kids have good memories of outings with Dad- to the park, the Zoo, the movies. It doesn't have to be elaborate or costly. It's the time with you that counts.

Nothing has to be decided at the moment and so being where you are at is the situation now. If this is working well enough that you can manage then no need to change. It seems like this is the situation with the least of chaos and expenses for now.

[maxsterling]

Wendy - I often think about what you have said about your dad.  I'm wondering if he felt trapped in a way.  Had he filed for divorce, what would have happened?  Do you think your mom would have been capable of at least some level of self-reliance?  From what you have said, it sounds like maybe not.  Do you think your dad considered that route, but didn't go that direction because of that fear?

[Notwendy]

I know my father considered it although it was BPD mother who made the most threats- empty ones. While I think my father had the sense to not discuss this with kids, because of the conflicts- at home where we saw them, and BPD mother's threats, I eventually asked him. As kids, at about 9-10 like yours, we really didn't know enough to ask.

From a parents' perspective, it must have felt shocking to have a teen daughter ask pointed questions, but BPD mother was bringing up their relationship issues. That was not appropriate but we heard it.

I know there was more to it but being confronted, he did say some. I had no idea at the time how unable to manage on her own she was. It was well hidden and Dad's support covered a lot of it up. He didn't reveal it either, he must have known.

Some of his responses were probably covers for the situation. He sometimes said it was too expensive but so was BPD mother and her uncontrolled spending. At one point he mentioned doing this and letting her find someone else. She was very attractive and now I see that would have been the only way she could have managed.

But he also did love her in a way- and when she could pull herself together, she was very charming. Sometimes he appeared smitten with her. The push pull I think also gave him some hope. It's also possible that there was less stress once we kids were grown and out of the house, and he didn't have the parenting duties in addition to her. By our teens, we were very self sufficient. However she remained a challenge.

I think he did feel trapped but I think a part of that was feeling responsible for her. The stress on him was apparent, even if he didn't talk about it. He was irritable at times and snapped at us. It was different when he was alone with us, he was more relaxed and engaged.

He did feel responsible for us kids and in her era, custody went to the mother. She would have pulled it together in court. Also in their era, many women didn't work outside the home. She had no work experience, and was unable to function in a job even if she did. I think he felt responsible for her.

Where things unravelled was when he got sick in his elder years and she didn't have as much of his supervision and emotional support. That is when I saw the full extent of it. Knowing he was very ill, I did bring up concerns about how she could manage on her own. I offered to help manage their finances as I knew she'd mismanage them. She refused. Eventually she did mismanage them. I had to have boundaries with her but stay in contact with her and was the next of kin contact in her elder years.  Fortunately there was enough funds left to cover her care facility.

My own take on this is that what is best for your own mental health is the best for the kids. If staying together leaves you stressed and drained, then that affects the kids too. They are going to see their mother's behavior whether you stay or not. If you do stay for the long run, be prepared for all the stages of this. As difficult as divorce is, if it did come to that, there might be resources in place for your wife that she is on SSI which could make her eligible for Medicaid in her elder years if needed.

One thought is to seek out this kind of information- what is she eligible now and later, even if it doesn't come to that. I did seek this out for my BPD mother- what are the options for her care if there are any. While the elder years are a ways off for you two, having the information itself may help you with plans whatever direction you choose.

[CC43]

Following that affair, it was the bi-weekly desire for BPD to move out and the 3am text messages to me about how she is so lonely she wants to die.  At this point she was barely capable of taking care of herself, and definitely not the kids. 

Hi there,

I think I remember the gist of your story, given the unusual nature of it:  you being OK with your wife moving out to have a same-sex affair, because it meant that you got some peace in your own home.  I think I also remember that your wife couldn't manage to feed herself(!).  The irony is not lost upon me, that you're dealing with a woman who attempted to work as a teacher of children, when she can't even figure out how to feed herself independently.  If she was working in an elementary school situation, it's no wonder that she didn't last very long, because job satisfaction is lower than ever in elementary schools these days.  The kids are too needy, the teaching requirements are too strenuous, and there's not enough support to teachers in a world where discipline measures have been watered down to nothing.  I guess my reflection is that this wouldn't be an ideal job set-up for her.

Anyway, I'm replying because my extended family went through a similar situation.  My uNPD brother-in-law separated from his wife and wanted to co-parent three young children.  However, he wasn't capable of caring for himself, not by a long shot.  He had all sorts of self-created and untreated health issues--alcoholism, obesity, high blood pressure, gout, failing kidneys, and the associated issues of nausea, vomiting, joint pain, impaired vision and extreme fatigue.  He was long-term unemployed (and unemployable).  His mobility was limited.  He neglected his home environment and hygiene, and he spent most of his days napping.  He couldn't feed himself reliably, unless you count ordering DoorDash every night as reliable.  And those were just some of his physical issues.  On top of that were mental issues including bouts of confusion, meanness and extreme self-centeredness characteristic of NPD.  In short, he is incapable of putting his children's interests first, let alone caring for them in an appropriate way.  Anyway, I imagine you can figure out that the kids weren't safe living with their dad.  He couldn't reliably feed them the simplest meals, like cereal for breakfast, PB&J sandwiches for lunch and spaghetti for dinner.  He wasn't even AWAKE at breakfast and lunchtime during his parenting days.  Basically he reversed roles, expecting the kids to be parentified and cater to him and his needs, while he was functioning like a child with a credit card.  As an example, the kids spent a lot of their time waiting for dad in urgent care clinics, in lieu of attending their usual after-school activities.  Not only that, but he was emotionally abusive to the children, calling them horrible names, exposing them to age-inappropriate subjects (e.g. nude photos, R-rated movies), and subjecting them to emotional manipulation, not unlike the quote I highlighted above about threatening suicide.  It's not fair to subject kids to that in my opinion.  For example, one time he drove into his driveway but refused to get out of the car and go in the house together with his three young kids.  The kids went inside by themselves (hungry of course), but after a while, they grew more and more worried.  His precocious daughter thought her dad was having some sort of health incident in the car, but he just yelled at her and told her to go back inside, while he refused to budge.  She ended up crying and asking her dad if she should call 911 for him.  Eventually she convinced him to give her his cellphone so that she could call her mom and ask her what to do.

And so I'd say, it sounds to me like your wife is functionally like a child, as she needs someone else to feed her, provide for her and cater to her emotional needs.  She can't handle employment or key adult responsibilities, right?  And you're not comfortable leaving the kids with her because of this?  I'd say, you need to document all this as best as you can.  Why?  Because right now you have a temporary situation that is working, in the "least bad" sense.  But my suspicion is that the situation is highly unstable, and your wife could go off the rails and make your homelife miserable again.  I'd say, you need to build a case for sole physical custody of your kids, until their mom demonstrates she can actually take care of herself, before she can even consider taking care of kids on her own.  I think it's not fair to expect kids to act like adults while their own parent is acting like a kid, and I think you need to protect them from that sort of situation as much as possible.  Maybe the solution for your wife would be some sort of supervised, short-duration visitation, which wouldn't include overnights for the kids until she got her act together.  Does that make sense?  I can't help but wonder, does your wife even want the responsibility of taking care of the kids on her own?  Or does she only want them to get back at you?

Just some food for thought.  All the best to you.

[maxsterling]

CC43 -

That sounds pretty bad. BPDw is not quite at that level - but at times not that far off.

When I say she is not capable of taking care of herself - I mean that most people have some kind of initiative for existence and can get their basic needs met.  W does not have this.  W will claim to not eat all day, then come to me freaking out at 8pm because she is hungry.  I just have never met anyone else who won't find a way to get food when hungry.  But W will say "I couldn't decide what to eat" or "I have no food in my house".  Yes, if I wasn't there, she may eventually order doordash.  But that's quite alarming to hear when I am depending on her to take care of the kids.   She will sometimes be motivated to feed the kids - but most of the time it is very basic.  Again, I have never met anyone else like this.  When she was living apart, the kids often fed themselves.  They are 9.  And I would go to her place and she would tell me she hadn't done anything all day because she was depressed.  But it was more than just depression - it was paranoia, psychosis, and obsessive behaviors that got in her way. 

I enjoy feeding my kids.  I enjoy deciding what to eat.  I enjoy preparing food.  I suspect most people do.  She doesn't.  Since I have known her, I have never, ever been to a restaurant with her when she did not order until she heard what everyone else ordered first.  Every single day she has to ask me what I want to do about dinner.  Never once, in 14 years, have I heard her say "I want to eat this for dinner" or "I want to eat at this restaurant" and find a way to make it happen.  She always wants someone to make that decision for her, and if there is nobody else to do it, she likely won't eat, or eat junk food or a snack.

All of her interests involve someone else.  She does not do anything on her own just for fun.  Again, this feels like an impossible way to live.  Everyone else I know has something they enjoy doing alone.  Going for a walk.  Going to the gym.  A hobby.  Going shopping.  If I and the kids are doing other things, she will say "I don't know what to do with myself"and try and coerce some kind of interaction through guilt tripping or controlling behaviors (she will find a way to complain about someone else).

When she decided she wanted to be involved romantically with a woman, immediately the focus was first on finding a woman.  Not about moving out, finding a job, being independent, or separating our bedroom.  Instead it was a desire for an "open relationship" until she found a female partner, and then it was all about moving out to be with this partner and suddenly she no longer wanted an "open relationship". 

W collects permanent federal disability and was given medicare since she was in her late 20s.  That is not easy to get.  That means at that time someone determined she was unlikely to ever have the ability to meet her basic needs through working and managing her health.  At this point, I agree. 

So how did I miss this before we got married?  Well, she hid it, and I didn't have enough life experience to understand that people like her existed.  She came across as someone who was open about having a troubled youth, got help for her mental illness, then got a graduate degree and had a career.  She had traveled overseas, seemingly by herself, and made it sound like she was a very independent woman who had a few bad breaks.  What I didn't understand is that her career was job after job that she complained about, that her overseas travels were almost always in pursuit of some kind of romantic fling, and her "depression and anxiety" had a psychosis component to it. 

[Notwendy]

You are correct in that to qualify for SSI/Disability Medicare- a person has to meet certain criteria and there needs to be medical documentation. One is: Severe Impairment: You must have a physical or mental medical condition that significantly limits your ability to perform basic work-related activities and it must be long term. Someone made this assessment of your wife when she was in her 20's. BPD alone is not sufficient to qualify for this.

Nobody chooses this or would want this but this is also a situation where she is eligible for some assistance. Being married, that might impact what she qualifies for. I know an adult who is receiving SSI and Medicare because of a physical disability. She has SSI, Medicare, and is in a subsidized apartment for either over 50 or 55. The building was recently built, and seems to be on par with other apartments in the area. One difference is that this person is a self sufficient mentally intact adult, she can meet her basic needs, but her housing and medical insurance is covered. If it ever came to divorce, your wife may be eligible for some similar material support.

In her elder years, she might meet income determination for Medicaid. Medicaid covers skilled nursing homes and also in some cases, some home health care. I knew an elderly man who had these services covered by Medicaid.

My BPD mother was not eligible for these services. In her era, many women didn't work outside the home. In her 20's. the expectation for her and her peers was to get married. There would not have been an assessment for if she could be employed or not. She did get through college, I don't know how your wife could have done that with her emotional issues- even if she is intelligent- on an intellect level, as my mother was, being able to keep up with a schedule, assigments, would be a challenge. My BPD mother lived at home for part of her college- perhaps she needed that kind of support but it would not have been unusual in her time.

How could you have missed it? Because pwBPD can mask well initially. It's not being deceitful. It's the nature of the relationship as BPD affects the closest relationships the most- so it would be after the relationship got closer and more committed that more of the behaviors would be seen. There are people who knew my mother who never had a clue. I don't think my father did, and in their time, BPD wasn't well known so there wasn't a name for her behavior.

BPD mother didn't not eat but her eating patterns were odd. She didn't cook, or grocery shop. BPD and eating disorders are common and she was concerned about her weight, and so wouldn't eat a lot during the day but would then eat later at night.

Where I see a difference between the usual eating disorders is that your wife comes to you wanting to be fed. This doesn't happen with anorexia- and with binge eating, the eating is often in secret. They don't come to another person asking to be fed. To me (and I am not a psychologist) this is emotional and child like. Your wife is capable of making a sandwich. Wanting to be fed is for emotional comfort- like a small child would seek out.

[CC43]

When I say she is not capable of taking care of herself - I mean that most people have some kind of initiative for existence and can get their basic needs met.  W does not have this.  W will claim to not eat all day, then come to me freaking out at 8pm because she is hungry.  I just have never met anyone else who won't find a way to get food when hungry.  But W will say "I couldn't decide what to eat" or "I have no food in my house". 

Indeed, I've seen something similar with my disordered brother-in-law, and also with the pwBPD in my life--not only concerning food, but with other self-care routines that most of us take for granted.  Things like cleaning the home, attending to one's health (medical / dental appointments), taking care of laundry/dressing appropriately, being responsible for bills, home mainetnance, etc.

I think Notwendy has a good point, that part of the issue is the emotional need to feel cared for.  But I'd add that there are probably some deficits in executive function and general life skills as well.  Part of the deficit is not having the scaffolding of a regular routine; in this case, we're dealing with the healthy routine of getting three square meals a day.  Most parents teach their kids that they should have breakfast in the morning, lunch mid-day and dinner in the evening, and be sure to eat some fruits, vegetables and protein before any sweets.  Right?  Sticking to a normal routine means that people generally get the fuel and nutrition they need, while the schedule fits into normal patterns and societal expectations, such as school and the workplace.  Most people come to realize that if they skip a meal, they get too hungry, so it's best to stick to the routine as much as possible.  And they learn to read their body's physical cues, like, it must be dinnertime, because my stomach is grumbling. 

What I've noticed with pwBPD and NPD is that routines tend to fall apart, because WANTS trump NEEDS.  Reaching for junk food feels much easier and more gratifying in the moment than investing a little time and energy in preparing something nourishing.  They just don't follow "normal" routines in my opinion.  And that makes daily decision-making that much harder.  Whereas I practically run on autopilot when it comes to making most of my meals, for them, they don't have an autopilot, except for the one that says, do whatever is easiest and most appealing moment to moment.

I think that the combination of a lack of a healthy routine, combined with long-term overfunctioning by the other adults in their life, results in the pwBPD not developing competence in some basic life skills.  To illustrate, when I was growing up, I helped my parents with everything.  I did all sorts of chores, year after year.  One of my responsibilities was helping with meals.  I accompanied my mom on hundreds of grocery shopping trips.  I help pick out fruit, vegetables, meats, eggs, etc., especially items on sale.  I helped with check-out and with carrying groceries into the car and house.  I helped unpack the food, wash items that could be washed and put things away.  The same went for making meals:  I helped make breakfast and dinner the overwhelming majority of the time.  By18, I had accumulated the experience of preparing thousands of meals, from shopping to prep to cooking to setting the table to washing up.  Those thousands of instances of real-life experience meant that I was competent with the skills of feeding.

But when it comes to BPD, I think they miss out on formative experiences like that, because their emotional needs and instability are just too much to handle.  In the moment, the adults around them determine that it's just too hard to ask them to contribute anything.  Fast forward to adulthood, and oftentimes, pwBPD literally don't have practice with mundane skills of self-care, in this case feeding.  Each individual step:  planning, shopping, creating a menu, prepping, cooking and cleaning up feel too OVERWHELMING.  Not only that, but the lack of practice means that whatever they might attempt to throw together just doesn't seem appealing.  It's always easier to "delegate" and get someone else to do all this for them, or reach for junk food.  As they do this, year after year, their executive function skills (and general life skills) appear to be childlike.  Why?  Because they are "stuck" at a child's level.  Over-functioning by the adults around them, in the name of making life easier, means that the pwBPD doesn't get practice.  Actually, that situation could lead to shame:  the pwBPD knows that they're incompetent, and to avoid those feelings, it's easier to give up and not even try.

Of course, there's the sense of entitlement, too:  since others have fed them in the past, they demand to be fed and cared for, as it's what they are used to and have come to expect.

Just my two cents.

[Pook075]

I just wanted to say that I'm so sorry you're in this position.  I can't imagine what you've been through and you've had so much patience over the past year or so.  My situation was similar (my wife left for another man), but I can't imagine her wanting to move back home after thoroughly destroying our household, our finances, and our family.

Please keep us updated! 

[maxsterling]

I don't think the lack of eating is a desire to be fed.  There may a subconscious desire to be cared for, as she often complains about doctors or nursing staff having "poor bedside manner", but I don't see it that way.  She wants her nurses to be sympathetic and like a mother.  I just want them to be competent and do their job. 

I think she has a genuine fear of ordering the wrong thing or eating thing and getting judged or ridiculed for it, and that shuts her down.  My guess is she got ridiculed growing up for what she chose to eat and fears others making comments.  Generally, she obsesses over what others may think or say about her behind her back.  Obsesses to the point she can't function otherwise.

Such as:  She quit her job in the middle of the day yesterday.  Since then, she has obsessed about what her coworkers are saying, her former managers, her former students, the student's parents...  I tell her that she quit - she doesn't have to think about those people any more.  Yet all night long, obsessing about what they might be thinking or saying.  She can't focus on anything else right now. 

[PeteWitsend]

This is making me really curious about why there's such a link between BPD, (or at least someone with strong-BPD characteristics who is otherwise undiagnosed), and a general helplessness/laziness/lack of responsibility (or whatever you want to call it) with respect to basic needs & everyday tasks.

Is it just that their emotionally stunted & underdeveloped brains make them like overgrown toddlers in everyday life as well... i.e. unable to perceive that things need to be done and do them?  Like they can look at a sink full of dirty dishes, be the only adult in the home, and not understand that the burden is on them to clean them up before things get moldy and disgusting?  

OR is it pure selfishness that drives them to have physical and household tasks done for them, just as they put the burden of their emotional needs on others?  Like they can look at that sink of dirty dishes and think "If I refuse to do the dishes, someone else will have to, and I can reach into my bag of 'dirty BPD tricks' to apply a little extra 'motivation' for them if needed" (e.g. blame someone else for the mess, scream "YOU NEVER CLEAN UP AROUND HERE I DO  EVERYTHING" at the partner who indeed always cleans up around there, break down and cry that there's too much to do and emotionally blackmail the partner into doing it, etc.)

Some of the things I observed are so self-serving that it's hard to dismiss them as part of a behavioral disorder... like just a complete refusal to clean bathrooms, make the bed EVER, bear half the burden of everyday household tasks without complaining, or let their partner sit and relax for a second if there's something that they need done.  So it seems to me it's closer to the latter.

[maxsterling]

With my BPDw, cleaning is a weird thing.  She may do nothing for months and then obsess about it.  The obsession sometimes is a reason to blame or criticize others.  I may do all the laundry including folding and putting away for months, and suddenly she obsesses about it and will make comments that she had to take over because I was doing it poorly or not getting it done, and how much work it is for her.  Or she may eventually clean/organize her messes, then complain about others.  Like stepping over her shoes on the floor to complain about our daughter's shoes on the floor. 

But the weird one was after she moved out, she would come over and complain about how disorganized and dirty my house was.  Yet this was a month after she moved out - so SHE was at least partially responsible for that disorganization and mess.  Yet when I went to her apartment, it was even more disorganized and messy, but she was either too depressed or busy to address it. 

It does seem rather childlike.  But I think for them being introspective is almost impossible because of the splitting.  They can't simply say, "Ok, I can do better at this".  For them it is "I screwed up so I am completely worthless."  It is either all someone else's fault, or an unescapable pit that they won't descend.   

[CC43]

This is making me really curious about why there's such a link between BPD, (or at least someone with strong-BPD characteristics who is otherwise undiagnosed), and a general helplessness/laziness/lack of responsibility (or whatever you want to call it) with respect to basic needs & everyday tasks.

Is it just that their emotionally stunted & underdeveloped brains make them like overgrown toddlers in everyday life as well... i.e. unable to perceive that things need to be done and do them?  Like they can look at a sink full of dirty dishes, be the only adult in the home, and not understand that the burden is on them to clean them up before things get moldy and disgusting?  

OR is it pure selfishness that drives them to have physical and household tasks done for them, just as they put the burden of their emotional needs on others?

I think it's both, a mix of the sense of overwhelm in everyday tasks, plus a strong sense of entitlement.  But I'd add other factors too:  not being able to handle shame, as well as using AVOIDANCE as a general coping tactic, which eventually leads to competency issues.

How would shame be a factor?  I could imagine it in cooking.  Your pwBPD might envisage cooking a meal, but she's so scared about making a mistake (e.g. burning it), that she quits before trying.  She could be afraid of being "exposed" for her lack of competence.  And so her coping tactic is to get someone else to cook for her.  She just can't take obstacles and setbacks in stride, because she takes everything too hard and uber-personally.

Another possibility is that she's afraid of looking "stupid."  My pwBPD, though she's in her late 20s, has the vocabulary of an early teen, which I think is mainly because she lost some years of education and life experience because of her BPD dysfunction.  Thus I think she's confused by everyday menu terms, like filet, medallion or julienned vegetables, as well as by some slightly more sophisticated food items, such as arugula, fennel, asparagus, farro, capers, etc.  She has trouble finding something "safe," and she's afraid of making a mistake, perhaps by mispronouncing a word, or ordering something she doesn't like.  She lacks the confidence to ask the server about a menu item.  She freezes up, especially if she can't find something familiar, like pizza, burgers or mac & cheese.

I can't help but recall a passage from Hillbilly Elegy, where JD Vance observed that his upbringing in poverty hadn't exposed him to restaurant dining as a kid, and he felt overwhelmed when he was first exposed to it as a young adult.  He lamented that he had trouble picking out a white wine, because he didn't know the difference between Chardonnay and Sauvignon Blanc.  I believed he picked Chardonnay because he thought it was easier to pronounce.  I happen to think that's pretty normal, and I went through the exact same thing as a young adult.  But the difference was, I knew I was smart enough--I just hadn't been exposed to these options before.  I had enough sense to ask someone else to order the wine, because, "I don't know enough about wine to make a good choice," or something like that.  If under duress, I would have asked the server for recommendations, or ordered the house wine or something.  But I wouldn't take that as demeaning, or exceedingly embarrassing.  I would take it in stride, learn from it and move forward.  If someone ordered Chardonnay for the table, I delighted in discovering that I liked it!  But pwBPD are so INSECURE and fearful of being "exposed" for incompetence, that they struggle with seemingly simple things like ordering from a menu.  Their classic coping tactic is avoidance, or getting someone else to do it for them.  And that might be why they seem so stuck in a childlike, dependent, seemingly incompetent state.

I'll wrap up with another thought:  I believe that because of volatile emotions, pwBPD have a really hard time with executive functioning generally.  Executive functioning involves having a vision, making a plan, prioritizing, focusing on completing tasks, filtering out distractions, tolerating distress, overcoming obstacles and trouble-shooting.  I've observed that even "vision" is an issue for them.  "Vision" involves knowing one's goals, likes and dislikes--such as the goal of having a nice home that is clean and orderly, or following a healthy daily routine.  PwBPD have such an unstable sense of self, they have trouble even envisioning a life they want that's both realistic and stable (and not based on fantasy).  I think "vision" also involves taking overall responsibility, as in, "I'm an adult, I'm responsible for myself, and I have a vision for leading a functional, healthy lifestyle."  It includes  "noticing" what needs to be done, and adjusting the gameplan accordingly.  Like:  We have a leak after that storm.  The first step is to mop up the water, maybe set up a fan to dry it out, and determine if I need to repaint anything.  Next, check if a window was left open or something.  Then determine if there's a fix I can handle, like caulk a window and repaint, and make a plan to buy supplies over the next few days, while carving out some time to make repairs over the weekend.  If I can't fix the problem, I need to call a professional and get it fixed before the next storm.  But first I need to research some people to call, then get a couple of estimates, then I need to schedule the work.

But I think pwBPD don't have that "vision" of how to be a responsible adult and make things happen in their life.  I think they are stuck in child mode, expecting others to make everything happen FOR them.  With this mindset, their needs are immense, their expectations are unrealistic, and they feel constantly aggrieved.

Just my two cents.

[Pook075]

This is making me really curious about why there's such a link between BPD, (or at least someone with strong-BPD characteristics who is otherwise undiagnosed), and a general helplessness/laziness/lack of responsibility (or whatever you want to call it) with respect to basic needs & everyday tasks.

My uneducated guess is that they get so hyper-focused on things they have no control over (what people say/think, etc) that they constantly run from it and search for the next great thing.  And when they can't find it, they start shutting down and getting depressed.

My ex would also go through cleaning spurts (usually 15 minutes before company was supposed to arrive) and then not touch a thing for months.  If I brought it up in any way, it was world war III about how I always put her down, I never support her, etc. 

But then she'd always say such a peculiar thing, "...I worked my ass off today and you never even see it."  If I asked her what she worked on though, it would almost always be, "I washed two loads of laundry."  Not fold laundry, mind you, not hang it or anything else....she simply took the 1 minute it takes to throw laundry into the washer and the dryer.  But she'd stick to her story and double down how she "worked her ass off".

Of all the arguments we ever had, that was by far the most puzzling and it happened almost weekly for 20+ years.

[Notwendy]

This is making me really curious about why there's such a link between BPD, (or at least someone with strong-BPD characteristics who is otherwise undiagnosed), and a general helplessness/laziness/lack of responsibility (or whatever you want to call it) with respect to basic needs & everyday tasks.

Is it just that their emotionally stunted & underdeveloped brains make them like overgrown toddlers in everyday life as well... i.e. unable to perceive that things need to be done and do them?  Like they can look at a sink full of dirty dishes, be the only adult in the home, and not understand that the burden is on them to clean them up before things get moldy and disgusting?  

OR is it pure selfishness that drives them to have physical and household tasks done for them, just as they put the burden of their emotional needs on others?  Like they can look at that sink of dirty dishes and think "If I refuse to do the dishes, someone else will have to, and I can reach into my bag of 'dirty BPD tricks' to apply a little extra 'motivation' for them if needed" (e.g. blame someone else for the mess, scream "YOU NEVER CLEAN UP AROUND HERE I DO  EVERYTHING" at the partner who indeed always cleans up around there, break down and cry that there's too much to do and emotionally blackmail the partner into doing it, etc.)

Some of the things I observed are so self-serving that it's hard to dismiss them as part of a behavioral disorder... like just a complete refusal to clean bathrooms, make the bed EVER, bear half the burden of everyday household tasks without complaining, or let their partner sit and relax for a second if there's something that they need done.  So it seems to me it's closer to the latter.

Pete, it's a bit of all of it and from a child's point of view growing up, it takes time to catch on to what is going on. Parents are authority figures so we assume they are the adults. I knew something was different. The other aspect is the shame, and secrecy with BPD. BPD mother did have the concerns about what others might think and so there was this illusion that she was "normal".

By about 9 or 10 I recall her rages and destrutive behavior but the day after, my parents would act as if nothing happened. We learned not to ask. At about 12, I was sharing what I learned in school with my father. He was listening to me. BPD mother started to act silly and cute- it was like a toddler wanting attention. I recall wondering about that. Also by that age, I could do most household tasks and we kids were pretty self sufficient. She was also drinking at that time, I thought it was the alcohol. By high school I was embarrased to have friends come over as I didn't know what they'd see her do at home.

One mystery was- what did BPD mother do all day while we were at school? We didn't see her do much of anything. College was my way to get away from it and so that is what I did. I would be home on school breaks and the behavior was the same but I didn't see it as much.

BPD mother had a high need to have people do things for her, even things she could have done herself. She'd either order me to do them, which scared me, or manipulate me to do them. She also was critical of what I did- finding something I did or didn't do that she could be angry about.

Mostly though, I pursued my own schooling, career, family. Visits were short, and often she held it together in general. She was also always with my father. I was not aware of the extent of emotional caretaking he took on. Visits were still chaotic. My parents had no routine, no regular meals. BPD mother ate what she wanted, whenever. Dad would heat up something simple.  I had a routine with my kids, and so they would fit in to that. I would cook a meal, they'd eat, then BPD mother would go lie down on the couch. Dad would play with the kids while I cleaned up the kitchen. It was like looking at my own childhood, where Dad took on the parenting tasks. The payoff though- my kids bonded with him. They loved their grandfather.

Until he couldn't - due to age and illness. This is something for Max to consider. At the moment, the main focus is on the kids, and supporting the family. The whole structure of the family is on your shoulders. The chaos that ensued when my father got ill was scary. I was afraid for his own well being if he couldn't take care of himself.

What was interesting was that, in a way, BPD mother aged into more "normalcy", because it isn't unusual for an elderly person to need assistance in taking care of herself. However, her emotional needs exceeded her actual physical needs. In assisted living, the levels of care are determined by level of physical need. Hers were not very high. However, emotionally she functioned like a young child. She needed that level of care and attention but elder care isn't set up for that.

Even though her level of function was not competent, she retained legal competency as she was congnitively intact and so she still retained the ability to mismanage her finances, decide to comply with medical care or not. Her extended family, who eventually caught on to her issues, urged me to consult an elder law attorney to see if there was a way to intervene. I learned a lot from the attorney but ultimately- as long as BPD mother was legally competent, she was autonomous.

By this time, I was aware of her level of impairment. She was completely self focused. Why this is, I don't think we can fully understand.

As to why you didn't see this at first, and I don't think my father did at first either- we meet someone while we are younger. We don't have the big responsibilities like children, house payments. Like many people with BPD, they can hold it together, especially when relationships are relatively care free. So your wife was also able to have flings when she wanted to. By our 40's, 50's. I think we have gained some maturity more than someone with BPD has. It can still be possible to  attract someone, but the maturity gap is wider. I guess it is still possible but I would think it might be more challenging?

[zachira]

My mother with BPD hired people to do nearly everything including ironing our clothes. She even hired other people's children to do work that my siblings and I could have done, as she feared her children becoming independent adults and abandoning her. She was highly dysregulated all the time, did not sleep well, and always exhausted. There were from time to time, bursts of high mood. I think she was too overwhelmed to do much. My dad very kindly once said he could not understand why she complained of being tired when she really did not do much. He seemed to understand that there was something wrong with her, so he let her hire people to help, even though we were not rich. Many years later, when I was an adult, a neighbor remarked on all the hired help we had. I had not realized until then how abnormal that was.

[Notwendy]

Same here Zachira. Even when there were financial concerns- there still had to be people hired to do things for my mother. In my teen years, I knew about the concerns and offered to do more but that was refused. I don't think it was about us kids becoming independent. BPD mother was fine with us growing up and leaving home. It's that it didn't meet her needs somehow.

That was something that made my mother's family wonder if there was more going on with her. After Dad passed away she had people doing things for her. Her family would comment on that- like how many people does your mother need to have her help her?

[maxsterling]

Pook -

Same.  I can do nearly all the housework chores for months, even help with her personal tasks, yet she will do one load of laundry and talk about how hard she worked.  And whatever task she does she will nearly always need some kind of help at some point (look, I did all the laundry, so now it is your job to put the linens away).  And if I don't recognize her accomplishment as equivalent or greater than what I have done, it's an argument.  

In her mind it is, "look what I have done, despite my physical pain and mental health challenges, AND I had to put up with you (or the kids), too!"  

But other moments the switch is the other way, "I can't seem to get anything done and my mental health is a burden to everyone and I am a piece of garbage."

the contrast between those two modes is exhausting.  

With kids, it helps them to recognize small accomplishments, even if they are routine like keeping their room clean.  It gives them a sense of personal pride and encourages them to continue.  With my W, it feels strange recognizing another adult for routine tasks. especially when no growth happens

[CC43]

But then she'd always say such a peculiar thing, "...I worked my ass off today and you never even see it."  If I asked her what she worked on though, it would almost always be, "I washed two loads of laundry."  Not fold laundry, mind you, not hang it or anything else....she simply took the 1 minute it takes to throw laundry into the washer and the dryer.  But she'd stick to her story and double down how she "worked her ass off".

Of all the arguments we ever had, that was by far the most puzzling and it happened almost weekly for 20+ years.

My humble opinion is that your wife truly believed she worked her butt off.  I have this pet theory, that almost everyone in the world thinks they work their butt off.  It's just that, when you're used to working only five or ten minutes a day, working for five or ten minutes qualifies as working "hard."  Granted, to you or me, that would be insignificant, because we're used to working at least eight hours a day at a paid job (and probably more), plus a few hours every day of unpaid work, including caregiving, homemaking, bill paying, etc.  Thus, five minutes to us is a tiny fraction of a "hard" day.  But to pwBPD, it's a lot, maybe even everything, percentage-wise.

I'd add that for me, most of the routine things I do, I do practically on autopilot.  That's because they are part of my normal routine, and I have so much practice doing them, that I don't spend a lot of mental bandwidth executing them, which frees up mental bandwidth for other, more demanding issues.  I generally get routine tasks done promptly and move on.  When I'm at my best and not too pressed for time, I might even enjoy doing some tasks, like cooking some days, sweeping the front steps, folding clothes or watering plants.  Sometimes I'll listen to music or a podcast to make simple chores seem almost "fun."  But my main motivation is creating a pleasant life for myself and my family, such as by making decent meals and keeping a clean and orderly home.

But here's the thing.  I think that pwBPD ruminate a lot.  They don't have the "scaffolding" of a routine to enable them to put everyday tasks on "autopilot."  Rather, they have trouble CHOOSING to do something they don't want to, and that makes them feel like they are facing a constant internal battle.  On top of that, their mood is generally negative, which makes everything seem more miserable than it "really" is.  I think they have an internal debate about all sorts of daily choices, like, "I'm tired, I don't feel like getting out of bed, it's too difficult to pick out something to wear, I have a zit, I don't want to deal, this is too hard, it's unfair that I'm expected to get out of bed, my life is overwhelming, I don't want to do this . . . "  To cope, they might roll over and go back to sleep.  When they eventually wake up again, the dialogue becomes even more negative:  "Why can't I just get up like a normal person?  My life sucks.  I never do anything fun.  The morning's already gone.  I don't have anything to wear.  I hate doing laundry, why do I have to do everything?"  Etc., etc.  By the time they get around to putting a load in the washer, they've debated it internally for a long time, devoting so much mental energy and time on an outwardly simple task.  According to their mental math, the task seems all-consuming and much bigger than it is for a "normal" person.  To them, they spent most of the day on it.  On top of that, they crave validation, a gold star:  "Great job!  You're a fantastic partner for doing everything around the house!"  But you just can't bring yourself to give her the validation she needs, as the clothes sit wrinkling in the dryer, the dishes sit unwashed in the sink, the bed is unmade and her remaining clothes are strewn all about the house, etc.  I don't blame you.  Why?  Because it is inherently UNFAIR.  She expects to make choices like an adult, yet not pull her weight, and on top of that, complain all the time.  You can't help but resent it, because you over-function for another adult AND get blamed and treated poorly.

Once, my pwBPD made this disconnect increasingly clear to me.  For context, she had recently moved back into my house.  This time, however, the expectation was that she work "full time" on herself--namely, get a full-time job that would give her benefits like subsidized health insurance, especially since she didn't qualify for parental or student health plans anymore.  Well, for the first few weeks, she insisted that she had to transition to a new routine.  She said she needed time to move her things, get settled in and adjust to a new home before figuring out how to search for work.  That seems reasonable, right?  But the thing is, for her, "adjusting" took a LONG time.  Whereas for a "normal" young adult, "moving in" is an activity that takes a day, maybe a weekend, tops, since she doesn't own that many things.  Yet for her, "moving in" happened gradually over the span of two or three weeks, and even then, she still had belongings left in a storage unit, and items remained unpacked and disorganized.  After "moving in" was supposedly complete, she needed even more time to "set up."  Mind you, she didn't get a new car registration, change her driver's license or register to vote, things that a "normal" adult would do when moving to a new state.  By "setting up," I think she meant, finding a new health club, new nail salon, new hair salon, etc.  Granted, this sort of thing is normal, but she approached it as her principal OCCUPATION, to the exclusion of more pressing responsibilities, such as searching for work, let alone offering to help around the house.  In her mind, she was expending considerable effort on "transitioning," or "learning a new routine," and it's as if she wanted praise for it!  As in, getting up by noon and getting her nails done in the afternoon was an "accomplishment."  But the whole time I was thinking, OK, it's been almost eight weeks, and she hasn't even tried to look for work yet.  When she eventually got around to searching for work, she'd spend maybe 20 minutes looking at job applications, and she'd call it quits for the day; by the same token, she believed that she was working "really hard" on finding a job!  And yet, for her, it was really hard.  She convinced herself that it was too "overwhelming," and that she needed to nap afterwards, because it was mentally exhausting.  I actually think this was true for her.  At the same time, it was possible for her to believe she was working "really hard," because her dad and I were enabling such a low level of functioning.  After all, she had free room, board and a suite all to herself; why endure the discomfort of searching for work?  In her mind, 20 minutes per day was considered hard, because she had little to no incentive to push herself harder.

Just some thoughts.

[maxsterling]

Wendy - maybe that is part of it.  As a single person, you aren't expected to do as much.  And what you don't do people don't see or is easily excused.

A lot of single people don't cook much for themselves, because cooking a full meal is large effort for one person.  So. they eat out, get takeout, or fix easy things to heat up.

Most single people don't buy houses on their own.  They rent.

Single people can be a little more reckless with money, and that is ok.  Nobody is dependent upon them.

Single people can change jobs often and that is OK - nobody is dependent upon them.

Single people don't have to make relationship commitments.  Saying "this person was not right for me" and moving on is easier.  

The BPD challenges may not show up as much.  The BPD "red flags" for my W were easily explained as coming of age stuff, being young and single and wanting to be adventurous and carefree, and in some cases came across as positive qualities.  

Past relationship issues were portrayed as making poor choices for partners.  But one eye opening instance recently explained how that was not quite the case.  The woman chose to have a relationship with recently I would not consider "a catch" and probably was not a very good choice, just a convenient choice with someone who gave her attention.  But despite that, W still obsessed, and when the GF felt engulfed and pulled away a little, W basically stalked her.  I watched it happen.  One day before she moved out, the GF had not communicated with her in awhile, and W suddenly got a text message from GF inviting her over.  W immediately dropped what she was doing, barely said goodbye to the kids, and drove over there.  She got a speeding ticket on the way.  Not just slightly speeding but significantly speeding on a road that it's difficult to speed on, and on a journey that would have only taken 10 minutes travelling at the speed limit.   When I found out about the ticket, W remarked about how when she got the text message she had to drop everything because she was so excited.  A week later she got another speeding ticket doing the same thing.  

This reminded me of a story she told about her first boyfriend in high school and her first car.  She described this boyfriend as someone who was abusive and not good for her, and they had an on and off again relationship.  One time when they were broken up, he came over and invited her to some kind of outing.  She quickly agreed and got in the car she just bought and followed him.  She claims she was trying to follow him while he was speeding and wound up running a red light and T-boning someone.  She told the story about what a numbskull he was for speeding and not caring about her and playing with her emotions.  

The recent story is nearly identical; except she luckily only got a ticket!  Same story - 30 years later.  A real eye-opening situation that made me realize all her past relationships are not how she portrays them.  

[Pook075]

My humble opinion is that your wife truly believed she worked her butt off.  I have this pet theory, that almost everyone in the world thinks they work their butt off.  

I'm so torn on that- part of me agrees with you, that she 100% believed that it was true.  But another part of me wonders if it was guilt and projecting because she felt lousy that she did so little (which led to depression, which led to her doing even less, which led to more depression...).

I can speak from experience that I was really depressed for about 3-4 months in my 30's.  Long story short, I owned a business and our town got covered with almost an inch of ice.  Half the state lost power and my business was closed the entire month of December, which was always our busiest month.  I was too small of a business to recover and I knew it, so I slowly but surely began to give up completely.  And the more it ate at me, the more I shut down internally and the less I did each day.

For me, I woke up one morning and thought, "What the heck are you doing!?!"  I was so mad at myself that I almost couldn't stand it, because I've always been a super hard worker that just kept going regardless of the circumstances.  So I went back to work and covered all shifts 7 days a week until I dug myself out of a very deep hole.  Just like that though, the depression "snapped" in mere seconds and I was back to my old self.

I don't think my wife ever had that "snap-back" moment in her life and I think she continually just felt more and more defeated by the world around her.  She did perk up when she left me and had the affair, and I've been curious if she's still doing well or if she's reverted back to her old patterns in her new marriage. 

I guess it doesn't really matter but it's always fascinated me...how the mind can perceive things with one person overcoming it and another shuts down.

[Notwendy]

The woman chose to have a relationship with recently I would not consider "a catch" and probably was not a very good choice, just a convenient choice with someone who gave her attention.  But despite that, W still obsessed, and when the GF felt engulfed and pulled away a little.

You brought up something interesting that I hadn't thought of. My mother's era was more traditional. Men took women out on formal dates. My mother's family told me she had lots of dates, and she did.  In someone's late teens and 20's, dates were fun. If the only expectation is to dress up, go out, have fun going to a dance or movies, there'd really be no difference between her and her other same age peers. In current times, for your wife being a bit young and wild would not stand out.

As she got older, I noticed BPD mother's friend circle change a bit. My parents maintained some friends as a couple, and after my father passed, her circle of people consisted of people who I thought were a bit odd, or  younger than she was or they were people she hired to help her.  She seemed to have a sort of mother-daughter type relationship with younger friends. Since she still seemed to like social situations, we thought she'd enjoy being in assisted living as there were social events. I recall meeting the other residents there. They were very friendly- mentally intact and while they were there to have help with some tasks, they'd sit out on the porch together, have meals together. They would invite my mother- and even me- when visiting to join them. My mother didn't do that. She became reclusive. Her prefered company were her caretakers. She wouldn't even go eat meals in the dining hall and had them brought to her room.

I think it might be the maturity gap. A pwBPD acting like a teen among people in their 20's - that isn't a big gap. For your wife - looking for a partner she had to look at someone- for better words- possibly what you see as "not a catch" for her- possibly because it was your wife's looks that she brought to the table, but the other women, being "older" emotionally didn't tolerate the behaviors. For my mother, choosing younger friends was less of a maturity gap.

However, once in assisted living, the residents there were all at an age of maturity having gained years of experience and wisdom. At this age, looks are not really on the table as much as companionship is. For BPD mother, this may have been too much of a challenge to sustain a relationship with them and her concerns about being exposed as different or worried about what people might say led to her avoiding contact with them. Maybe this is one reason she was more reclusive. I had not thought of that.

What this means for you Max is that for now, old age isn't on your agenda. Your focus is on the kids and supporting the family. However, from what I have seen, even healthy older and independent adults might need some help at some point, with household tasks, or errands. I think it's fair to assume that while you can help your wife, she is unable to help you. She also isn't able to make sound decisions. I think it would be wise to look into a plan at some point, even if it isn't needed ever, but to appoint someone you trust as emergency POA and possibly some investments your wife can't spend all at once.  Since your wife is on SSI  learn the rules about that and Medicaid so that any savings, trusts, don't disqualify her for help if she were to need it. Just having the information so you know what to do some say may help.

[CC43]

I'm so torn on that- part of me agrees with you, that she 100% believed that it was true.  But another part of me wonders if it was guilt and projecting because she felt lousy that she did so little (which led to depression, which led to her doing even less, which led to more depression...).

Pook, you're the best.  Guess what?  I agree with you on both points.  I think that both can be true, even at the same time with BPD!  They feel they are trying really hard, and at the same time, they feel lousy because even though they're trying, deep down they know they falling short, and the shame is unbearable.  They are simultaneously unhappy about how hard and unfair life feels, and unhappy with feelings of inadequacy.  I think it all ties into the victim mindset and the learned helplessness.  

To your example of the failing business:  you were right to feel devastated.  Trust me, I ran a small business once too, and it is a lot of pressure having to completely "own" your own mistakes.  You can't even really take a break, because everything depends on you.  In the face of a huge setback, it's a natural reaction shut down, conserve energy and maybe temporarily lose hope.  But eventually, you took stock of the situation, and you decided to problem-solve, to resolve to work it out and fix the situation.  That is resilience and mental toughness--grit--perhaps mixed with vision, a little faith and optimism.  These are gifts that some people have, but I'd say that pwBPD are sorely lacking.