Upcoming Business Trip will be HUGE Trigger - What To Do?

[DaddyBear77]

First let me say I'm posting here on the Improving board because in my heart, I really DO wish to improve the relationship with my uBPDw. At the same time I'm also very conflicted on whether to stay or go, mostly because I feel like the kinds of "improvement" I'm hoping for are completely unrealistic, but that's for another topic.

In a little more than a week, I will be taking a short business trip a few hundred miles away from home. Only one night away, but this particular trip will take me within about 25 miles of where my parents live, as well as my brother and his wife and my niece. My brother has been married for 4 years, and my niece just turned 2, and I've never met either one of them.

Regardless of what I tell my pwBPD, I intend to have dinner with them and spend as much time as possible the night before my meetings.

Having said that, I am deeply conflicted over what to tell / communicate to my wife. A brief recap of the relevant history - my wife has focused her anger and rage at my family of origin, and in particular my mother, for many many years. In particular, about 8 years ago she made it clear that her "demand" was for me to never have a relationship with my family of origin. And then about 4 years ago, right before our D3 was born, the "demand" became a threat, and if I was to ever have a relationship with my family of origin, she would fight as hard as she could to leave me and take full custody of our D3.

Even if everything I just outlined is a huge bluff, I'm still faced with this overwhelming challenge: Do I lie and see my FoO anyway? Do I make a commitment to my pwBPD to NOT see them while I'm traveling and keep that commitment? Or do I use this opportunity to bring the situation to a head?

Here's how I feel about each option:
If I lie: I'm avoiding the massive conflict and potentially days, weeks, and months of anger and rage. I may even be avoiding separation and/or divorce by lying. On the other hand, I'm feel really bad about myself and my choice to continue to lie, and it fuels the guilt I feel and in one way or another, that comes across to her.

If I do NOT visit my FoO: I'm being honest, and there's a good chance things will actually IMPROVE inside my relationship with my pwBPD. However, I am further straining my relationship with my FoO and keeping myself isolated, which doesn't feel like the best thing to do. Even if I don't tell my FoO I'm in the area, I will still feel personally conflicted because I know that avoiding / isolating myself from my FoO is NOT warranted in the specific circumstances surrounding this "demand" from my pwBPD

If I bring this to a head: Things will be horrible inside my relationship with pwBPD for days, weeks, or months. The relationship might end completely. I may be forced to file for / defend a filing for divorce. This will change the "reality" for my pwBPD, who currently thinks that I DO agree with her and that I HAVE decided to isolate myself (which is a lie). I will need to use a lot of tools that I'm not fully confident about. But at least I will have been both honest AND true to my own feelings and beliefs.

What do I do here?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

Here's what I'd suggest, in order of preference:

1. I would spend time with your FOO on that trip. [You agree!]

2. I would enforce some reasonable boundaries on how available you are to your wife on the phone during this trip. As in not have your phone on at all times, and respond instantly at all times. (I would make it a point to contact her on a semi-regular schedule, perhaps a phone call once a day, though.)

Then the other stuff. The challenges.

1. If backed into a corner, I *ABSOLUTELY* would not "agree" to a new demand that you not see them, and would refuse to engage in the fight. "I will see my family, and that is not something I will discuss with you further."

2. I wouldn't bring up your visit to your FOO to your wife. Since she wants nothing to do with them, it really isn't her business very much. (Easy if you get lucky!)

3. I wouldn't lie to her about whether you will see them, if she asks, either before or after the fact.

I might say "You want nothing to do with them, so I will not be discussing the relationship I have with them with you further." (Enforce appropriate boundaries to end conversation here!)

In other words, ":)on't ask, don't tell" is the best she can get from you.

Lastly... .If she is threatening divorce and refusing you access to D3 over this, I'd talk to a lawyer and be ready to hit her hard to protect your rights as a father should she do so. [Please post on the legal board for more ideas!]


BTW my take on the other options:

Lying will *probably* blow up on you when you get caught someday, but it might work if you can pull it off.

Caving in on this demand absolutely won't help. You cannot possibly fill the black hole of emotional need she has, and if you throw your family into the black hole, it will demand something else next. You don't get peace this way--all you get is a day or two of quiet before the next round of abuse.

[isilme]

I have to agree lying will just blow up later, and caving won't help you resolve this and just punts it down the road for another day.  Enforcing a boundary that she has no right to restrict you from your FOO, but is free to ignore them and not interact herself is the best way to go.

Yes, it may bring things to a head.  That will probably be some form of extinction burst. So have some ducks in a row just in case she makes the biggest possible deal out of it, and prepare to go about your business regardless of her choices. 

[Fie]

Hello Daddybear 

I am really sorry for the situation you are finding yourself into. 

I think in your shoes I would go see my FOO.

In case you'd go see them, do you think it could be an option to record any conversations you'll have with your wife about visiting them ? If she really does go ahead with asking full custody of your daughter, I presume she will need reasons to get that granted, which might mean lying and manipulating lawyers/judges to get her way. If you have a recorded conversation where she bluntly says asking full custody is a way to get back at you for seeing your FOO, it might help you later on if needed. (If the court would allow it in your country)

[allienoah]

Hello fie
Believe me when I tell you---don't lie if asked! I have to bear the guilt that in certain situations to avoid a fight/episode, I would sugar-coat the truth, evade honesty and placate, placate, placate. It only blows up in your face and then it adds to the anxiety by you having to very clearly remember every word you said. because as a pwBPD goes, they remember EVERYTHING! This is a result of everything having to be about them. If you lie, when the next situation comes up, you will feel guilty that you lied in the past, and it feeds on itself. I feel stuck when by bf dysregulates because sometimes it is about situations in the past that I HAVE been less than honest about, and I feel bad so I take the emotional/verbal abuse.
Please don't make the same mistake I did. Honesty is truly the best policy.
And prepare for the volcano!

[DaddyBear77]

So I thought I'd reply to this old thread and give a little update on the business trip.

First of all, I visited my family-of-origin tonight. My parents made dinner, my niece and sister in law visited, and I just generally felt cared for and loved in a way that I haven't felt in such a long time. I'm so glad I did that.

But, I ended up lying to my uBPDw after all. I told her I was having a critical business dinner at the hotel restaurant. I told her I couldn't text because I was sitting in close quarters with my boss and other members of my team. During the dinner, this happened via text message:

Wife:
   I'm seriously getting anxious.
        I don't even see this hotel having a restaurant on their website.
        I can't do my reading because I'm freaking out imagining the worst.
   I really need a response here that clarifies things unmistakably.
Me:
   Wrapping up
Wife:
   I need to know where you are and who you're with.
   I'm serious.
   I'm sure you can appreciate why.
   I'm moments away from going full panic attack here.
   I need to know before it wraps up.
Me:
   With 3 people. Cant snap [a selfie or anything like that] right now.
        Hold on
Wife:
   I'm worried you're making me wait for a reason.
   Like either [your parents are] with you or you aren't where you said.
   Jesus what if you were lying about everything?
   I feel so stupid.
   Fu__. I guess that's it, then.
   Jesus god at least end the suspense.
   Even if you hate me I don't deserve this.
   I don't know what to do.
   Please.


Two thoughts on this:

1. I am absolutely sure that I will need to "come clean" someday about my relationship with my parents - there is absolutely NO reason for me NOT to have a relationship, and that's something I am absolutely sure of now.

2. That text exchange with her scared the hell out of me. It made ME panic.

I think I learned something really big about what keeps me stuck: I am terrified of HER pain. I am terrified of watching HER go through what will inevitably be a horribly emotionally painful experience that could last days, weeks, months, who knows. I would feel doubly bad because I will know I was the one who "kicked it off." Even if I am not the one who CAUSED her fear of abandonment in the first place, I have invested 17 years in trying to soothe, maintain, control, and manipulate it.

[ArleighBurke]

And this is about boundaries. Your lack of them! You told her that you would not be able to text, then she made a fuss, and you broke your boundary and panicked and texted her.

She cannot respect you, and will not respect your boundaries, if YOU don't respect your own boundaries. You are teaching her that to get you to do <anything>, she just has to be anxious enough.

I COMPLETELY get where you are - you want the best for her - you want to help her avoid pain. So you think about lieing, so you try to appease her during her "panic attack". You are actually feeding her pain!. She needs to learn how to manage her own pain. So if you set a boundary - "I will not be able to text during dinner" - then you STICK TO THAT. She will find all sorts of reasons to try to get you to respond. IGNORE THEM. I would not even check your phone... .But if you truely believe she is in harm, send someone else to her home (police, friend etc). But uphold your boundary!

[Breathe066]

DaddyBear77,
Wow. That insight about being afraid of your spouse's BPD pain. That is my life. Yes, I'm afraid of his rage, but I also really and truly do not want to cause him pain. It hurts me that he hurts. I couldn't possibly lie to him. I think I'd feel sick about it and I would be anxious about discovery.
The hellish irony of his BPD is that he always thinks I don't care but in fact my caring so much has made life with him unbearable.

[Notwendy]

Daddybear- I think you have identified something important- your fears about your wife's feelings and your wish to alleviate them. You know that you are not the source or cause of them, yet somehow you share your wife's idea that you have some capacity to fix them. You do- temporarily- and this keeps you hoping that this is somehow possible.

Projection is the mechanism that causes these emotions to be experienced as something external to her- something that you caused, or did, or someone else caused or did. Although this appears to be believable- if it were- then solving the issue at hand would solve the problem.

But does it?

Has not seeing your family resulted in a happy wife? Has spending a lot of money on things she wants made her happy in the long run?

Do you believe that you can fix this by changing something you do? Not doing something you want to do? Doing something you don't want to do?

[Notwendy]

This pattern- looking for an external relief for feelings, getting temporary relief, then when the feeling is there again- looking again for the next "fix" ( yes word intended) fits an addiction model. The "fix" may be a substance, but it could also be looking at a person to solve the issue.

The other side of this is the enabler- rescuer role. It does feel exhilarating to be the one to help- the one who can fix it- but there is an emotional cost to this as well. Giving up something important to us- in order to help someone else feel better doesn't feels so good sometimes.

Just about every behavior has a cost/payoff to it. Substance addiction has a very high cost, but the payoff is there for the addict. So is it with enabling behavior- we relieve our own discomfort when we see someone else isn't happy with us, we relieve our own fears of abandonment.

I think that change is possible when we can not be as upset or fearful in the presence of an angry person we care about. This isn't so easy to do.

I think it is very sad for you that your wife demands you not have a relationship with your family. However, if this relationship is important to you, you will need to be able to stand up for this. She is unlikely to change. Your task is to choose to stand up for this- and pay the consequences of her distress, or to not do it.

If you think of the other side of this- it may help to read the relative board where people post how sad they are to lose contact with their child, sibling, and even parent who is married to a spouse who has insisted they cut contact. I imagine your family was thrilled to see you.

[peacemountain]

Daddybear, I've been watching your thread since I have a similar situation with my own work trip coming up. Separately, I'm also dealing with isolation from my family - not as severe, but definitely still an issue.

Notwendy has some excellent points. Here's what comes to mind for me. You are one of the few, or maybe the only person in your wife's life that is in a position to allow her to be in a place where she is forced to learn to self soothe. Learning to process one's own emotions is a critical and necessary skill in life that our pwBPD have not developed.

This is NOT easy, because it means that we are leaving our pwBPD in a place of pain, where their only options are address their pain on their own (either in a healthy or unhealthy way). The longer we enable, the longer we prevent them from finding out that they CAN do this. They CAN work through their own pain in healthy ways.

And what about you? What about you being able to ENJOY time with your family without feeling pressure and anxiety from the text bombing, the threats, the crying wolf? This is something you need. The comfort and acceptance of your family, the joy of meeting your sister in law and niece is something that is key in building you up as a person. It's self care!

There are several things that I enjoy doing that are critical to me maintaining my strength and sanity in my life with my uBPDh. Jogging, time with close friends, taking a bath, spiritual activities, etc. I know that some of these activities trigger my H's fear of abandonment. I also know I can't enjoy them if I'm being bombarded with text messages that are abusive or threatening. So I've had to set boundaries on myself. If I am doing one of these things, I will let my H know ahead of time "Hey babe, going for a jog, and I've got to kick it hard. Won't be able to respond for 90 min. TTYS" I will not respond to texts, no matter how crazy they get. If he starts bombing, after text #2 I will set my phone to do not disturb so that my mind can focus on where I am in the present. I will not read the texts either. If I'm super tempted to read them, I will turn off my phone. I've set a boundary, and now I have to keep it, or I'm showing him that if he gets crazy or mean enough, I won't stick to my word. At first, this was super hard, every time would be an extinction burst. Now, I'm at the point where I don't even have to tell him I won't respond while I'm on a jog. He just knows I won't respond. I know have completely quiet runs free from the anxiety and stress of him melting down! It's wonderful and SO worth the horrible extinction bursts that I had to deal with to get there.

It's time to put yourself first in some areas. You're in a difficult place where you have to keep yourself healthy in order to be a caregiver. Carve out areas where you can find peace and contentment, where you can be built up and loved by others, etc., and fiercely protect those areas from the stresses and anxiety of someone else's dysregulations. You'll have more strength to handle the chaos if you do. And in turn, this is directly benefiting HER.

Strength and courage to you! I'm so glad you chose to see your family. Take care of yourself and let us know how it goes from here.

[Notwendy]

My experience of this kind of thing is not objective. I was the recipient of this kind of thing when I set boundaries on my BPD mother as an adult.

I learned then that my father also limited contact with his FOO. I felt sad, not just for me but for his parents, and his siblings. They didn't deserve this.

It seems the opposite happens with the children of BPD parents. On the other board, children of BPD parents are struggling with the idea of going NC with a parent who has caused drama in their lives. They see it as a last resort. Perhaps some of the struggle is due to some co-dependency but also- it seems unnatural and drastic-to cut contact with a parent, even an abusive one.

Then, there are the families of grown children, who did nothing to deserve being cut off like this- and they are grieving, just bewildered that the family member they cherish can toss out the relationship just like that.

I do wish that you will gain the ability to put your needs first, and then after that, to consider how your FOO feels. You mentioned that you have a difficult time seeing your wife upset, but the irony is that you and likely your family are also upset too.

I don't wish to tell you what to do about your relationship, but I hope that you will get a glimpse of the other side of cutting contact with your family who loves you and to encourage you to take a stand for your relationship with them.

I did struggle with something similar to this in my marriage but not with family but with outside interests and friends. A MC encouraged me to stand up for my wishes to have interests and friends. It wasn't easy, but it didn't end the relationship. I know that this is scary- the other person does have a choice, but it is up to us to take a stand for our boundaries.

[Grey Kitty]

I think I learned something really big about what keeps me stuck: I am terrified of HER pain. I am terrified of watching HER go through what will inevitably be a horribly emotionally painful experience that could last days, weeks, months, who knows. I would feel doubly bad because I will know I was the one who "kicked it off." Even if I am not the one who CAUSED her fear of abandonment in the first place, I have invested 17 years in trying to soothe, maintain, control, and manipulate it.

Soo... .how has your 17 year investment in trying to control her pain worked out you? 

Do you want to spend another 17 years the same way?

Are you ready to face your own emotions (like this fear) head-on?

[DaddyBear77]

My father just sent me this text:

DaddyBear thank you for this couple days it really meant a lot to mom and me ! We love you much and good luck going forward ! We will support you whatever you do !

Should have waited until I was somewhere less public, 'cause crying in the middle of an airport is embarrassing!

[peacemountain]

 
Sounds like you have a wonderfully supportive family who loves you very much!

[Grey Kitty]

When it comes to your wife putting you in the position of choosing between her and your family, remember how they treat you!

It will help you find resolve to do the right thing with your wife. Whether that is a "small" thing like standing up for your right to have a r/s with your parents... .or bigger choices.

[Gracie0521]

this post was very helpful. i definitely have to work on my boundaries. I can relate and often find I am having that self debate... .
the problem is when i tell the truth it becomes a text athon and I end up to exhausted to do what ai had planned to do in the first place.

[ArleighBurke]

"... .becoming a text-a-thon".

Here is also where you should set a boundary. I don't think you will EVER win an "arguement" - because every new response, every new fact is just another thing that can be argued about. Don't fuel the fire!

State you position. State your position again. Don't get dragged into a debate or even a discussion. Be a broken record - state your position - don't answer, respond to, clarify, ANYthing she says. Don't offer more information or justification. Then say "you know where I stand - I'm not discussing this any further". THEN STOP!