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Author Topic: I disagree that people sellect partners w the same level of maturity  (Read 375 times)
Breathe066
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« on: April 24, 2017, 04:49:54 PM »

It's become really popular for therapists and psych writers to say people select partners with the same level of emotional maturity. I've thought about this a lot and I think it's a rubbish way to establish parity where it's not. I can't think of even one couple I know that's made up of two people of the same emotional maturity level. Not one.
In my case, I'm a caretaker, so frankly none of my partners have been as mature as me, even if they've been older. I'm the one who minds the bills, plans the grocery list, notices when the roof is leaking, remembers kids' and grandparents' birthdays, watches the credit rating, refinances the mortgage, mops the floor and does all the other heavy lifting while my partner swans around talking about the ethereal nature of love and the power of soul connection.  I'm no saint--I'm defensive as hell as anyone who knows me can attest--but I am a grown-up and it always feels distinctly that I am involved with children in grown-up bodies.
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« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2017, 05:10:18 PM »

You're correct in the sense that no one can really measure emotional maturity. It's all going to be subjective interpretation (even any research attempted).
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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2017, 05:13:43 PM »

It's become really popular for therapists and psych writers to say people select partners with the same level of emotional maturity. I've thought about this a lot and I think it's a rubbish... .

This is not really "pop-psych", it's a principle tenet in Family Systems Theory, the life work by Bowen (See Bowen Institute, Georgetown, DC).

It's not about reliability or responsibility, its about emotional maturity and how differentiated we are as individuals.

Caretakers, for example, are not well differentiated. It important to them to be in a care-taking role which is not necessarily a higher level of emotional differentiation - but a different style of a similar level of emotional differentiate when compared to the partner.

Nonetheless, we are a clinically based support community, and we base our platform of psychology practices.

No one has to agree with all, but if anyone is a "psychology is rubbish"  mindset, this might not be the best support group for them.
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Breathe066
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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2017, 05:16:34 PM »

How did Bowen define emotional maturity? How did he define differentiation? Differentiation is a major component of couples therapy as written about by Schnarch and others who never mention emotional maturity, though they do say we are attracted to those whose differentiation is similar to our own.
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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2017, 05:28:30 PM »

 

One thing for sure, is that people in a state of depression or anxiety, are not in the best position to evaluate psychology and human behavior.  It's why we don't create theories here.

I'm not sure I can "prove up" the eight interlocking concepts of Bowen Family Systems Theory in a way that would be very satisfying for you, but you may want to keep an open mind. Nothing more.

Many of the theories I heard early in my journey were hard to see and some were hard to accept. In time, I learned, drip by drip, that there is a lot of wisdom in those things.

The more I learn about human nature, the better I do in relationships of all kinds. I also see, that there is much more still to be learned.
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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2017, 05:41:46 PM »

so frankly none of my partners have been as mature as me, even if they've been older. I'm the one who minds the bills, plans the grocery list, notices when the roof is leaking, remembers kids' and grandparents' birthdays, watches the credit rating, refinances the mortgage, mops the floor and does all the other heavy lifting while my partner swans around talking about the ethereal nature of love and the power of soul connection.  I'm no saint--I'm defensive as hell as anyone who knows me can attest--but I am a grown-up and it always feels distinctly that I am involved with children in grown-up bodies.


if you claim that none of your partners are as 'mature' as you, then why allow for so much selfish behavior from the other person? 

a huge aspect of maturity is knowing your wants and needs, as well as setting boundaries... .perhaps your role as caretaker could be seen as a role easily taken advantage of (doormat), and therefore relegates the role to lesser than the martyrdom you're claiming (sorry, if that sounded harsh)

what do you derive from fulfilling all the responsibilities and obligations while your partner fiddles the day away?  why did you select this person and maintain a relationship with them, if they are 'beneath' you?

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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2017, 05:48:21 PM »

Hi Breathe66,

I think that's a good question to ask, I like you don't have the same level of maturity as my ex, i'm quite the opposite in fact BUT I had a lot of issues going into the r/s. I'm not implying that is the same in your situation because everyone's situation is different. Have you asked yourself why you make similar choices in partners? If it's not emotional maturity then what is it?
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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2017, 07:20:51 PM »

Maybe maturity is the wrong term or being misinterpreted.

I think if one has a truly healthy sense of self they would get out of these relationships when the first  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) appear. Rather than trying to care for the person inflicting pain on them, they would take care of themselves and their own needs.

I too am the classic caretaker. I have always put my needs aside for others. Does that make me a victim if someone takes advantage of that or did I allow it?

I am not saying our exes should escape blame, it takes two to tango after all, however I think emotionally healthy people don't tolerate this behavior from others. Does this make us immature? Not really but I do believe we are lacking emotional awareness which plays into our bonding with someone who possessed BPD.

Again, it doesn't make us disordered but it does make us a catalyst in the dysfunction that plays out.

Just my two cents.
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« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2017, 08:55:11 PM »

it was news to me. i thought: "isnt my ex the one with emotional problems? isnt BPD an emotional disorder? surely i didnt struggle as much in terms of regulating my emotions."

emotional maturity might be a bit different than our working definitions of "maturity". emotional maturity is synonymous with our level of differentiation. it made a lot more sense to me when i looked at it through this lens:

Excerpt
The concept of Differentiation of Self is the ability to separate feelings and thoughts. Undifferentiated people can not separate feelings and thoughts; when dealing with relationships, they are flooded with feelings, and have difficulty thinking logically and basing their decisions on that. This often manifests as unrealistic needs and expectations.  Further, they have difficulty separating  their own feelings from the feelings of others.
<br/>:)ifferentiation is described in many ways in the following points:

1. Growing in the ability to see where and how I fit into my relationship, the position I hold and the power that is and is not given to that position.

2. Growing in the ability to be fully responsible for my own life while being committed to growing closer to those I love.

3. Intentionally developing, at the same time, autonomy and intimacy. In developing autonomy I set myself towards achieving my dreams and ambitions. In developing intimacy, I allow those close to me to see and know me as I really am.

4. Being willing to say clearly who I am and who I want to be while others are trying to tell me who I am and who I should be.

5. Staying in touch with others while, and even though, there is tension and disagreement.

6. Being able to declare clearly what I need and requesting help from others without imposing my needs upon them.

7. Being able to understand what needs I can and cannot meet in my own life and in the lives of others.

8. Understanding that I am called to be distinct (separate) from others, without being distant from others.

9. Understanding that I am responsible to others but not responsible for others .

10. Growing in the ability to live from the sane, thinking and creative person I am, who can perceive possibilities and chase dreams and ambitions without hurting people in the process.

11. Growing in the ability to detect where controlling emotions and highly reactive behavior have directed my life, then, opting for better and more purposeful growth born of creative thinking.

12. Deciding never to use another person for my own ends and to be honest with myself about this when I see myself falling into such patterns.

13. Seeing my life as a whole, a complete unit, and not as compartmentalized, unrelated segments.

14. Making no heroes; taking no victims.

15. Giving up the search for the arrival of a Knight in Shining Armour who will save me from the beautiful struggles and possibilities presented in everyday living.

To differentiate is to provide a platform for maximum growth and personal development for everyone in your circle of influence. It means being able to calmly reflect on a conflicted interaction afterward, realizing your own role in it, and then choosing a different response for the future. Not to differentiate is to fuse (the failure to become a separate person) with others and to place responsibility on others (or on situations, predicaments, and hurdles) for the way in which our lives develop.

These widely accepted theory were developed by Murray Bowen, M.D. in the late 1940s and early 1950s when he was a psychiatrist at the Menninger Clinic. After his time at Menningers, he moved to the National Institute of Mental Health, then to Georgetown University Medical Center and finally established the Georgetown Family Center in Washington, D.C.

Bowen's therapy is a process of increasing one's differentiation or ability to balance automatic reactivity and subjectivity with a factual view of oneself and others.


www.bowentheoryacademy.org/6.html

www.difficultrelationships.com/2006/03/25/bowen-differentiation/

www.psychpage.com/learning/library/counseling/bowen.html



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« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2017, 11:20:52 PM »

it was news to me. i thought: "isnt my ex the one with emotional problems? isnt BPD an emotional disorder? surely i didnt struggle as much in terms of regulating my emotions."

emotional maturity might be a bit different than our working definitions of "maturity". emotional maturity is synonymous with our level of differentiation. it made a lot more sense to me when i looked at it through this lens:


Thank you for this. I definitely struggle with differentiation. I've been working very hard to correct this in therapy and on my own, but I didn't have a name for it. I can clearly see the dysfunction I brought into the relationship.
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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2017, 01:00:44 AM »

I embodied a good deal of those points listed above. Im certain my xBPD equated a good deal of that to abandonment and not attending to he needs. In classic fashion she was not able to articulate this and did not have the emotional maturity to manage the feelings so instead chose what she's always chosen... .an abrupt departure with bodies scattered in the wind... .no communication, no empathy for anyone and certainly no insight into the impact of her behavior. While I read some people's posts that they have empathy for their ex BPD partner I have none for mine. Despite this disorder she made the choice to harm me and our children emotionally. She did it knowingly and unapologetically and to me that is unacceptable and emotionally retarded.
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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2017, 02:02:22 AM »

I'm not gonna way in on the science of psychology here, but I will say that the Bowens and other theories on differentiation have been super helpful. Once the list is great thank you!

I use the mindfulness approach as much as possible. Looking at my behaviour in third person helps alot (also helps reduce my anger, for those of you angry try it, it helps to play the cyborg role sometimes).

I'm gonna go out on a limb and talk about how immature I am here. Probably just as immature as my ex, emotionally at least.

(Note: this is only an exercise about my emotional immaturity, so I am not trying to pat myself on the back here. Although that is exactly what someone with narcissistic traits would say to cover their tracks Being cool (click to insert in post))

  Me:

I was always the good guy, the white knight, the caretaker. In relationships I cooked, cleaned, washed dishes, was full-time counselor, on call for 36 hours a day, worked 2 or 3 jobs at a time, the list goes on and on.  I have a wide social circle, a close group of friends I've known since we were toddlers. I am a respected colleague, have two degrees and working on a third, numerous accolades, I'm bilingual, etc. etc.

In my family I was the fixer, the go between. Siblings tell me their darkest secrets (actually everyone in my life), divorced parents use me as the go-between to end conflict, I keep in close contact with my extended family members. I am very close to both sets of grandparents, I am the only child to do this. At least from what people tell me, I am universally well liked (I don't have enemies) and people are drawn to me because of my positive energy in life.

I have dated three women long-term in my life.

What type of women do you think I date?  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)  

They were always the helpless victims, in need of saving. All three women had similar attributes: no close friends, a very dysfunctional relationship with family, had serious trauma in their past, had difficulty expressing their feelings, struggled with being employed, couldn't maintain a stable relationship with friends and family for any extended period of time, blamed others for their mistakes, had serious anger issues, and thought that it was others responsibility (ie. me) to make them happy. Real and true intimacy was lacking in major parts of all these relationships. Financially, I paid disproportionately in all my relationships regardless of the fact I was always the one with less money.

Lastly,(and I do mean last on this list in prioritization of importance), I don't mean to be vain at all, I am not like that, but all three of these women were less good-looking then me, something I consciously thought when I started dating them (others even commented on this, although I buried it in my mind till relatively recently). Who wants to date someone they don't think is good-looking enough for them? Why would I do that? Thought

I am a successful individual in every other sphere of my life but where am I immature?  In my partner choices first off. I picked people who weren't on the same level as me, didn't have the same quality relationships, didn't have the same interest in a stable family life, were unhappy about the future, didn't think their was hope, no matter what. Exact opposite of me. From crisis to endless crisis in their lives we ran together until they sucked me dry and I left or they left.

We can call it differentiation, emotional maturity, etc. but I attribute it to poor choices on my part. This is what makes me emotionally immature. Just as it was immature of my BPD-ex and other partners to choose to be with someone who was going to do everything for them it was immature of my to choose to be with someone I should do everything for.  It takes two to tango as they say.

It was the "choosing" that makes me emotionally immature. They made their choices, they did what they did, my uBPDex in particular did terrible things to me. And I stayed (till discard). That makes me so bloody emotionally immature in my opinion.
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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2017, 08:43:30 AM »

its hard to see, let alone admit to ourselves, let alone stand before others, and declare ourselves emotionally immature. for most of us, our level of differentiation is what we have known, and in many ways, it has "worked" for us, until now.

the good news is that emotional immaturity is not set in stone. with work, we can improve and grow in our emotional maturity, and find healthier, more rewarding relationships of all kinds.
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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2017, 09:50:05 AM »

Before I started dating my expwBPD I chatted to a friend of mine about her, he knew her a little, not much, but enough to tell me that "she will be high maintenance". I ignored him.

I asked her out and  on the first date, all went well, until the very end. As we were leaving the pub, I just caught her, out of the corner of my eye, making eye contact with a guy at the bar and smiling at him. Hmmm, I thought that was odd, and a little rude, but didn't say anything. I wasn't sure what to make of that, my gut feel was that it wasn't right and I didn't contact her for 3 or 4 weeks. But then I decided to ignore my gut feel, and I asked her out again.

And this pattern - of push / pull from her and of me reacting, then complaining and then forgiving her  continued for another 5 months, causing numerous rows, break up, recycles (by her or me) and then a final very cold a heartless discard from her, followed by a year of stalking and other nonsense.

So, I have to ask myself, did my actions, behaviours and decisions at the beginning, and then during the relationship lead me to emotional happiness, emotional well being and health. And the answer is NO.

My friend could see something that I couldn't , I ignored my own gut feel, I stayed in an unhealthy and emotionally dangerous relationship longer than was wise. And I count this as emotional immaturity. At the time of the discard, to my mind, everything was her fault, she was vindictive and heartless and cold etc... etc... .But now, with a bit of time and space, that is not really the point. Now I want to make damn sure something like this never ever happens to me again. And for that to be the case, I have been on something of a journey - to look at myself, my FOO and get to the bottom of why I would ever allow this to have happened to me in the first place and what to take forward in terms of learning. And it is  to be wary of people who's behaviour I don't understand or is disrespectful and to keep with stable, good, calm, supportive people, and if there are  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) or reasons for uncertainty to walk away, no matter how much I like the person or fancy the girl.

It is my job to look after myself and to be far more careful with my own emotional health and well being, that is my responsibility and now I consciously consider what people say to me, what their actions are and how they behave. I have to do this because my emotional makeup - my sub-conscious behaviour patterns have not always lead me good outcomes and so I have to double check my emotional landscape and in effect, keep an eye on myself. And I have to do that because my emotional landscape is a little off centre, I have elements of co-dependency and a bit of white knight thinking, and both I think of types of emotional immaturity and something I have now become very aware of, and hopefully I will from now on be better able to look after myself in relationships and be more self aware and self assured.

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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2017, 10:45:21 PM »

I'm a caretaker,  too. My ex and the guy she left me for were a better match emotionally. I read some of the emails she sent to him and they were on the level of junior high... .a way in such we never communicated. She tried to pull that stuff with me early on and my resistance frustrated her and resulted in conflict.  

Also being 10 years older,  I knew I was more mature.  I've read the 8 Concepts,  the summaries on Bowen's Web page.  I quietly resisted the concept in the subject line of your thread.  

I'm a caretaker like you.  One of my friends,  a guy 10 years older and wiser than me,  told me after it was over that he observed a Daddy-Daughter dynamic between us. Over a year before it broke down,  I realized the Daddy-Daughter dynamic myself and was horrified on what I'd gotten myself into. My T sagely offered,  "choose someone your own age next time." So I was off the hook,  right?

Yet why would I consciously choose someone who wasn't on my level? Why would I want to take care of someone like that? Perhaps because I was in control (so I thought)? Maybe because it was safe? Little did I know it wasn't!

Everyone in my life has marveled at how stable I've been though all of this; whereas,  my ex has been all over the place: Moved 3 times in 3 years and is now seperated. It's tempting to give myself a congratulatory hug,  yet I got myself into the relationship in the beginning, knowing from the start it was imbalanced in so many ways.  Why did I do that? The why here is, "why do I want to be a caretaker? Such a r/s in no way results in healthy reciprocity."
This leads to another question: "if so,  what did I could I possibly get out of such a r/s?"

Maybe the "emotional match" doesn't describe my r/s 100% if I understand it at first glance, but there might be something to this differentiation stuff since I initially chose to be in a r/s with a more immature person.  Something drew me to her after all.

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