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MrRight
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« on: May 21, 2017, 03:53:25 PM »

Hi.

Been married for 16 years to a woman who I now understand has BPD. Have checked out traits etc - and she fits 75% of them.

We have a 14 y/o son.

Not much time to post this intro - just want to say hello before I really start going over things.

I am hopeing for some feedback - suggestions on how to cope with this. Leaving is not an option - nor is taking the child away from his mother.

My long term goal is to get my son to adulthood and move on myself. I am 52.

thank you.
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MrRight
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2017, 11:08:45 PM »

Sorry - think I have posted on the wrong board.
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Turkish
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2017, 12:15:56 AM »

Hello MrRight,

Your overall situation might fit better on the Improving Board, as the crew there can help support you,  and there are tools to the right of the board which can help you understand BPD and how to navigate your marriage to reduce conflict. I suggest posting there giving focus on your marriage relationship.

Given your son,  however,  discussing how your relationship dynamic affects him means you can discuss this aspect here,  despite the "after the split" title on the board.  We do have some members in situations like yours,  choosing to stay. There is also material here which can help you help your son.  

So how do you see that he's struggling?

Turkish
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2017, 09:55:09 PM »

Leaving is not an option - nor is taking the child away from his mother.

We are not here to tell you what to do, that is your responsibility and choice.  However, please read and learn as much as possible.  We can help share our experiences, what worked for us and what didn't work too.  Collectively we've walked in your shoes and "been there, done that".  The more you get educated about these Personality Disorders, the more informed and more confident your decisions will be. Thought

Also, always remember that you are not locked in to one choice.  (Many of us arrived thinking there was no option but over time we realized we actually had more power over our lives than we previously thought.  You have the right to periodically review your circumstances, perhaps even new information and revise your decisions.  You. Are. Not. Stuck.

More or less, it takes two people to make a successful and healthy marriage.  It takes only one to make it dysfunctional and unhealthy.  As you spend more time here you'll begin to see possible strategies that may work for you.  At the least, you'll gain better insight on your predicament.  If you stay, some problems will be avoided in the short term but your children will not see good examples in parenting, probably one parent acting all sorts of crazy or controlling, probably the other parent appeasing and endlessly trying to hold the pieces together.  Would those be good role models for the children?  Will they grow up and choose relationships they're familiar with?  If you end the marriage, there would be different issues but, ponder this, wouldn't the children be seeing a good model and good parenting from one parent?  Something to think about.  As I said, you don't have to lock yourself into a specific path.  You can even do a holding pattern (as aircraft do as they circle the airport) while you get more informed and perhaps even legal advice to clarify what options you do have.
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MrRight
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2017, 02:52:29 PM »

Thanks for your comments.
My son is now 14.5 yrs. Knows his mum has a disorder. Does not want to have the family split. I have talked this through with him and covered many issues. I have told him - this is not by any means a normal mum/dad scenario. He knows it. We both have an understanding about what we are dealing with.
It's a bit late anyway to start role modelling him.
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2017, 10:06:50 PM »

I wouldn't underestimate roll modeling. No matter how precocious, mature,  or an "old soul" He might be,  he's still a kid,  and you are the number one influencer in his life.  He's going to take with him for the rest of his life how you handle this.  I remind myself of this weekly with D5 and S7.

What does getting your son to adulthood look like to you? At 18? Through college?
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MrRight
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2017, 11:18:44 PM »

I wouldn't underestimate roll modeling. No matter how precocious, mature,  or an "old soul" He might be,  he's still a kid,  and you are the number one influencer in his life.  He's going to take with him for the rest of his life how you handle this.  I remind myself of this weekly with D5 and S7.

What does getting your son to adulthood look like to you? At 18? Through college?

Good question. My earliest exit point would be when he has got his university place. That could be in just over 1 year - as he is studying several years ahead of his chronological age. One practical issue would be solved as I currently have to drive him 25 miles to and from school each day (we live where there is no feasible public transport). So once he has completed his school education and has his university place booked.
There are time now when I would walk out but for this issue and that I am paying back huge sums of money on various loans - financing 2 households at this point would be impossible for me - even if I live in a small room.
So it's mainly practical issues that are keeping me locked in but I wouldnt necessarily wait until he is 18.
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« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2017, 10:51:12 AM »

Why would you need to support two homes?  Is she disabled?  One positive stance to take and use in court is that, with the marriage ending and being unwound, then she needs to get a job or start a career.

My ex evidently earned very little during our divorce when our son was a preschooler but she had been employed before he was born and I was glad the court assigned her an imputed income.  It didn't make much difference to child support figures but it sure helped.  It also was a way to ensure the court expected her to start or restart a career or at least find work.  She did get some alimony but it lasted only a few years.  I always viewed the short term alimony as a bridge to help her transition into post-marriage life.  Is that a good perspective for you?

Also, divorce when acting out PDs are an issue usually tends to take a long time.  A general observation is that our divorces often take one to two years.  And the longer you take to act could have ramifications.  One is that the courts do tend to look at long marriages as having a greater impact on the financially disadvantaged spouse.  I don't know who your court would view a 16 year marriage but ponder how it would look at one even longer.  Another is more important to your son.  All these years you've been setting an example for your son.  Probably the marriage had more than normal acquiescing and hounding?  That would have been the 'normal' for him.  Kids tend to grow up and make choices for their relationships based on their parents?  Have you thought that he might choose a relationship partner like his dad or his mother?

All I'm saying is that if the marriage will end, waiting may not be the best approach.  Whatever else, be sure you have strategies in place when it does end.  Confidential support (counselors, lawyers and peer support such as found here) is crucial to reduce the risks and potentials for sabotage and obstruction.
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MrRight
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« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2017, 11:01:17 AM »

Why would you need to support two homes?  Is she disabled?  One positive stance to take and use in court is that, with the marriage ending and being unwound, then she needs to get a job or start a career.

My ex evidently earned very little during our divorce when our son was a preschooler but she had been employed before he was born and I was glad the court assigned her an imputed income.  It didn't make much difference to child support figures but it sure helped.  It also was a way to ensure the court expected her to start or restart a career or at least find work.  She did get some alimony but it lasted only a few years.  I always viewed the short term alimony as a bridge to help her transition into post-marriage life.  Is that a good perspective for you?

the house and mortgage are in my name. I would have to go on paying many many costs certainly until he is 18. and I have substantial debts to pay off. 20% of my income goes on debt and that will continue for at least 5 years until loans etc are paid off. her income potential is poor.
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Panda39
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« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2017, 12:59:40 PM »

Hi MrRight,

In many ways I was where you are now only difference was I was married to an alcoholic not someone with BPD (I'm here because my boyfriend has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife).

I want to preface this with I'm am not trying to push you to do anything in particular but just want to share my experience because there were things I didn't recognize when I was where you are... .I only saw these things after I left my marriage.

I like you felt I had no way out financially and wanted to provide a certain kind of life materially for my son that in my case I couldn't do on my income alone.  I thought I could protect him from the worst of his dad's behaviors and like you and your son it was me and my son against the world. 

I was married about 2 years before I realized I'd married an alcoholic.  We met when he was in the Navy, we were in our 20's and we partied and had fun like any other 20 year olds.  This included some drinking.  I didn't have experience with alcoholism and didn't recognize it until it was too late.  3 years into my marriage I was pregnant (surprise!).  I wanted my baby, I wanted to be a mom, I thought I could fix my husband, I thought I could make it work. 

My son was 3 months old when my husband was arrested for (his 1st) DUI.  I thought Yay!  He'll finally recognize he has a problem, he'll finally get help, and he'll get himself straightened out. No... .sadly nothing changed.  My Marriage died there and my co-dependence of 17 years began.

My marriage slowly deteriorated over time punctuated by a 2nd DUI, weekend binge drinking, passed out husband in front of the TV, sober husband that called me liar because I would tell him things while he was drunk that he couldn't remember, and towards the end drunk husband meeting me at the door at the end of the day looking for a fight. 

I thought I protected my son from all of this because I kept my husband directing it all at me.  It would be easy for me to blame my failed marriage on my alcoholic husband but it takes two to tango.  I depended on his paycheck and he depended on me for everything else (co-dependence), I could feel superior to my alcoholic husband (boost my poor self esteem), and I could normalize dysfunction (I could handle it, I could fix it, I could take care of it), I could hide the dysfunction (cut myself off socially).  I was slowly dying inside, I was stressed, emotionally exhausted and finally became depressed.

At that point my son had no functioning parent but even then I thought I was protecting him.

I gradually began to start taking care of myself, quit smoking, lost weight, starting making art again, and started going out with friends again.  I was focused on me... .I had to... .like the oxygen mask demonstration on an airplane, I couldn't help my son if I couldn't help myself.

When my son was in his sophomore year of High School, I decided to leave I was making enough to support us in a less expensive lifestyle but I could do it.  Once I made the decision I found I had support from friends, family, and even divorced acquaintances that adopted me into the "club". 

My son and I moved into a small 2 bedroom apartment, it isn't much but it's ours  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) No drunk guy picking fights around anymore... .we had peace.

I was happy, energetic, had a social life, and spent time with my son.

Shortly after I left my ex-husband had his 3rd DUI, smelled of alcohol at work and got fired, he spent his retirement on lawyers for the DUI, he lost me, he lost his son, and he hit rock bottom.  He finally acknowledged his alcoholism and got help.  He has been sober 5+ years.

Post divorce, my son began having anxiety attacks, all of the sudden could not eat in public (Social Anxiety), had stomach issues due to anxiety, and depression.  During my marriage it became his role to stay under the radar and I think when I left my marriage a lot of feelings in him began to surface because it was finally safe to do so.  He was open to the idea of therapy and received some good coping tools for both the anxiety and depression.

My son abhors alcohol of any kind... .he is not mirroring his father's behaviors.  So who is his other example? Though now managed he suffers from anxiety and depression... .he mirrored me. 

I have discussions about co-dependence with my son too, if he's mirroring me he needs to understand it and hopefully learn to avoid it. Besides my own story, I have been known to use some of the stories and advice here to illustrate things.

But what else did he learn from his father and me.  He learned that if things aren't working in a relationship you can leave, that people can learn and change, and that you control your own life and happiness.

I just want you to see that there may be more going on with your son than you see, he might be trying to protect you too like my son was by not making things harder for me by sharing his feelings of stress, anxiety and depression.  It also might not be good to have that "us against the world" mentality either our son's are not our partners, they are our children.  I have a lot of guilt around my son's lack of childhood because of all the dysfunction he had in his life... .you don't get to have friends over when drunk man is home, you don't learn to be social when your family is isolated (my covering up the dysfunction), and you don't learn to relax when it's always tense and your waiting for the shoe to drop.

Thanks for letting me share my story.

Panda39

PS Regarding your financial situation... .what about the equity in your house?  Might be a source of income that could be used towards your debt.
 
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MrRight
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2017, 03:55:58 PM »

Hi MrRight,

In many ways I was where you are now only difference was I was married to an alcoholic not someone with BPD (I'm here because my boyfriend has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife).

I want to preface this with I'm am not trying to push you to do anything in particular but just want to share my experience because there were things I didn't recognize when I was where you are... .I only saw these things after I left my marriage.

I like you felt I had no way out financially and wanted to provide a certain kind of life materially for my son that in my case I couldn't do on my income alone.  I thought I could protect him from the worst of his dad's behaviors and like you and your son it was me and my son against the world. 

I was married about 2 years before I realized I'd married an alcoholic.  We met when he was in the Navy, we were in our 20's and we partied and had fun like any other 20 year olds.  This included some drinking.  I didn't have experience with alcoholism and didn't recognize it until it was too late.  3 years into my marriage I was pregnant (surprise!).  I wanted my baby, I wanted to be a mom, I thought I could fix my husband, I thought I could make it work. 

My son was 3 months old when my husband was arrested for (his 1st) DUI.  I thought Yay!  He'll finally recognize he has a problem, he'll finally get help, and he'll get himself straightened out. No... .sadly nothing changed.  My Marriage died there and my co-dependence of 17 years began.

My marriage slowly deteriorated over time punctuated by a 2nd DUI, weekend binge drinking, passed out husband in front of the TV, sober husband that called me liar because I would tell him things while he was drunk that he couldn't remember, and towards the end drunk husband meeting me at the door at the end of the day looking for a fight. 

I thought I protected my son from all of this because I kept my husband directing it all at me.  It would be easy for me to blame my failed marriage on my alcoholic husband but it takes two to tango.  I depended on his paycheck and he depended on me for everything else (co-dependence), I could feel superior to my alcoholic husband (boost my poor self esteem), and I could normalize dysfunction (I could handle it, I could fix it, I could take care of it), I could hide the dysfunction (cut myself off socially).  I was slowly dying inside, I was stressed, emotionally exhausted and finally became depressed.

At that point my son had no functioning parent but even then I thought I was protecting him.

I gradually began to start taking care of myself, quit smoking, lost weight, starting making art again, and started going out with friends again.  I was focused on me... .I had to... .like the oxygen mask demonstration on an airplane, I couldn't help my son if I couldn't help myself.

When my son was in his sophomore year of High School, I decided to leave I was making enough to support us in a less expensive lifestyle but I could do it.  Once I made the decision I found I had support from friends, family, and even divorced acquaintances that adopted me into the "club". 

My son and I moved into a small 2 bedroom apartment, it isn't much but it's ours  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) No drunk guy picking fights around anymore... .we had peace.

I was happy, energetic, had a social life, and spent time with my son.

Shortly after I left my ex-husband had his 3rd DUI, smelled of alcohol at work and got fired, he spent his retirement on lawyers for the DUI, he lost me, he lost his son, and he hit rock bottom.  He finally acknowledged his alcoholism and got help.  He has been sober 5+ years.

Post divorce, my son began having anxiety attacks, all of the sudden could not eat in public (Social Anxiety), had stomach issues due to anxiety, and depression.  During my marriage it became his role to stay under the radar and I think when I left my marriage a lot of feelings in him began to surface because it was finally safe to do so.  He was open to the idea of therapy and received some good coping tools for both the anxiety and depression.

My son abhors alcohol of any kind... .he is not mirroring his father's behaviors.  So who is his other example? Though now managed he suffers from anxiety and depression... .he mirrored me. 

I have discussions about co-dependence with my son too, if he's mirroring me he needs to understand it and hopefully learn to avoid it. Besides my own story, I have been known to use some of the stories and advice here to illustrate things.

But what else did he learn from his father and me.  He learned that if things aren't working in a relationship you can leave, that people can learn and change, and that you control your own life and happiness.

I just want you to see that there may be more going on with your son than you see, he might be trying to protect you too like my son was by not making things harder for me by sharing his feelings of stress, anxiety and depression.  It also might not be good to have that "us against the world" mentality either our son's are not our partners, they are our children.  I have a lot of guilt around my son's lack of childhood because of all the dysfunction he had in his life... .you don't get to have friends over when drunk man is home, you don't learn to be social when your family is isolated (my covering up the dysfunction), and you don't learn to relax when it's always tense and your waiting for the shoe to drop.

Thanks for letting me share my story.

Panda39

PS Regarding your financial situation... .what about the equity in your house?  Might be a source of income that could be used towards your debt.
 

Mmm, thanks for sharing that. I am sorry you went through that hell.

There are too many differences in your story to make it wholly relevant to the position I find myself in.

You were a mother with a child - and an alcoholic husband. That is a no brainer situation - gotta get out with the child.

I am a father with a BPD wife and S14.

I am the earner - she is not.

My wife has no arrests against her name - is by all accounts - a model mum. In many respects she has done too many good things for her son - education  wise - he would be no where compared to where he is now - if I had been the sole carer. I have to acknowledge that. It sounds to me as if your family unit was not functioning in any useful way at all from your child's point of view - or yours.

You were able to leave your husband and any financial liabilities fell on him - not you. I cant just walk away like that. If I leave - I leave the family home but as my wife has no income - will have to pay all expenses - at least till he's 18.

She would no doubt fight me for custody if I took him away. There would be court etc. Financially I live on a knife edge week to week. He also depends on me for transport - getting him to school and back - as we live in a village far from school. The city where his school is - financially - is just out of my league. There is just no way I could rent a flat there and continue to pay the mortgage on the family home. I dont want to sell the home to square my debts as I want to leave the home to him - so will want to pay out the mortgage in due course and my debts. I dont need much - a quiet room would be enough. I can live cheaply.

Another point - despite the adversity - I am still myself - well centred. He can see that and respects it.

NB - the reason we have debts is we spent 10 years paying high music tutor fees (her choice not mine) - but he dropped music last year and settled on something else he finds interesting. We dumped all the teachers and now I am reducing the debt finally.

I think in your case you certainly did the right thing but it's not really that similar to my situation.
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Panda39
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« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2017, 06:20:08 AM »

I'm sorry I wasn't being as clear as I wanted to be... .what I was trying to get at is that your situation could be affecting your son in ways that you might not see or be aware of now.  Things that could surface later after you are away from the immediate crisis of living with your wife or could surface later in your son's own relationships.

Panda39
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MrRight
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2017, 12:59:20 AM »

I'm sorry I wasn't being as clear as I wanted to be... .what I was trying to get at is that your situation could be affecting your son in ways that you might not see or be aware of now.  Things that could surface later after you are away from the immediate crisis of living with your wife or could surface later in your son's own relationships.

Panda39

Thanks Panda39 - well that is a possibility - one that I am having to consider on the scales of whether I should break up the family or not.
The "damage" may well already be done - and making a big point to him right now in the middle of important exams etc - that - you dont have to stay in a poor relationship - might not be the best way forward for him or us.
He has in fact - many advantages over where I was at his time in life. He is very popular and confident with girls, has been well guided in his education and is close to obtaining a place at a top university, knows exactly what he wants to do as a career and has 2 parents prepared to support him as far as possible in his life.
I had none of those things and I also had parents split up when I was 14 and knowing the impact at first hand - I cant see that it will do him any kind of good either now or in the future.

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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2017, 10:49:13 AM »

The optimal situation for children is in a married, intact and stable home.  Stable doesn’t mean that the home is perfect.  It does mean the following criteria: the children are safe, have basic needs met, the environment is minimally chaotic and children have at least one good or normal role model.  Having one parent present who is stable and healthy will go a long way to ameliorate the negative effects of a parent who is not.   It is pretty well established that while children raised in such environments have a near negligible risk for negative outcomes compared fully stable and cohesive families and in absolute numbers the vast majority learn to cope on their own over time and grow up as normal adults.  Your marriage sounds like it has been rough on you, but in regards to your son it looks like you’ve pulled it off so far and you are in the home stretch.  You’ll have to be the judge of the truth of that.  What are your concerns with completing the home stretch and finishing?  Are you crapping out and don’t think you can finish or are you afraid for yourself in someway?

Because the risk of negative comes increases with increasing instability and chaos, separation might be warranted if it will make things more stable for the child, but overall children from intact families do better than children from dissolved families.  With that said, it is also fairly well established that even in cases of necessary separation, the vast majority of kids will end up okay if they have access to a stable parent and stable environment an equal part, hopefully the majority, of the time.  That would be the end game that the stable parent should pursue with all the effort and leverage they can bear upon it.

The worse case is where both parents are idiots or where the child if left alone the majority of time with an unstable chaotic parent.  These are the children that are most at risk.  In absolute numbers, even they can do okay in the long run if they have access to other sources of stability and positive interaction.
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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2017, 02:21:50 PM »

The optimal situation for children is in a married, intact and stable home.  Stable doesn’t mean that the home is perfect.  It does mean the following criteria: the children are safe, have basic needs met, the environment is minimally chaotic and children have at least one good or normal role model.  Having one parent present who is stable and healthy will go a long way to ameliorate the negative effects of a parent who is not.   It is pretty well established that while children raised in such environments have a near negligible risk for negative outcomes compared fully stable and cohesive families and in absolute numbers the vast majority learn to cope on their own over time and grow up as normal adults.  Your marriage sounds like it has been rough on you, but in regards to your son it looks like you’ve pulled it off so far and you are in the home stretch.  You’ll have to be the judge of the truth of that.  What are your concerns with completing the home stretch and finishing?  Are you crapping out and don’t think you can finish or are you afraid for yourself in someway?

Because the risk of negative comes increases with increasing instability and chaos, separation might be warranted if it will make things more stable for the child, but overall children from intact families do better than children from dissolved families.  With that said, it is also fairly well established that even in cases of necessary separation, the vast majority of kids will end up okay if they have access to a stable parent and stable environment an equal part, hopefully the majority, of the time.  That would be the end game that the stable parent should pursue with all the effort and leverage they can bear upon it.

The worse case is where both parents are idiots or where the child if left alone the majority of time with an unstable chaotic parent.  These are the children that are most at risk.  In absolute numbers, even they can do okay in the long run if they have access to other sources of stability and positive interaction.


good post - will get back on your points.
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