Need skills for interaction

[GreenerGrass]

I am cautious to even access this site for fear that my family member also reads this site and will somehow recognize my input---maybe by recognizing common phrases I use etc.  While it may be good to connect with people who have similar experiences, it is scary to reach out.

[Panda39]

Hi GreenerGrass,

Welcome to the BPD Family 

I'm glad you've decided to take the plunge and post.  It can feel scary, but the interesting thing you will discover by being here and reading other people's stories is how similar they are. Because we have similar stories even if someone was looking it would be hard to pick you out from the rest of the members. That similarity besides making you a tree in our forest is what makes coming here so helpful, we all have lived it or are living it... .we get it.  The members here are great for support, ideas, and a listening ear when you just need to vent.  The site has a wealth of information and tools that can help.

I hope you will push through the fear, stick with us and share your story.

Panda39

My one security suggestion is if you live with the BPD person in your life be sure to delete your visits here from your computers browser history.

[GreenerGrass]

It is indeed scary as one of my sisters has decided that I am the cause of every thing bad that has happened in her life.  Fortunately we do not live in the same household, or even in the same state. I have considered blocking calls, but I feel like she has such little support that i must stay connected.  Extended periods of time may go by between phone calls, but consistently she reaches out with rage and blame. At this point, I am not comfortable sharing more details of my story for fear that she accesses this site and the rage would be explosive if she recognized anything as her story.

[Panda39]

Hi GreenerGrass,

I'm sorry to hear about the raging phone calls that has to be absolutely miserable to sit through   and I hear that you care about your sister in spite of that.

I wanted to share some information with you, the first is about FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail. Because it sounds like some is going on  with you and your sister.  Check out the links below do you think that this is something that is going on? 

I feel like she has such little support that i must stay connected... .I am not comfortable sharing more details of my story for fear that she accesses this site... .

https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

I also wanted to talk about boundaries, you don't have to sit on the phone and take verbal abuse.  Besides blocking your sister's calls are there some other ways that you can protect yourself when she calls raging and blaming? Below is more on boundaries... .

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a120.htm
https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

Once you've checked out the information on boundaries lets see if we can come up with some healthier ways to deal with these phone calls.

Are you seeing a therapist at all? It might be something worth looking into.  It can be a great place (and confidential place) to talk with someone about your situation and they can give you support and coping tools too.

I'll be interested to hear what you think of the information in relation to your situation.

Take Care,
Panda39

[GreenerGrass]

Panda39--I can quickly see that you do understand what it's like to be in such a relationship and though I haven't accessed them yet, I look forward to the checking out the links provided in your response.  Thank you for taking the time to help.

[GreenerGrass]

I really do need to become skilled at handling the phone calls.   I have felt so guilty because I don't reach out to her. When she does call, I feel like I need to give her time to vent and rage--that's the least I can do.  It is not unusual for the call to last 1-2 hours and I get only a few short comments in.  No matter how hard I try to keep it peaceful and try to validate her feelings, she
continues to blame me--especially for the course of her adult life--what she has been denied. Her entire happiness is supposedly dependent upon me acknowledging all that I have done wrong and her being convinced that I am sorry. We are only 3 years apart in age--we grew up together as children. I have seen therapists, but little has been directed toward communication skills in this situation. 

[Panda39]

What do you think will happen if you set a boundary around these phone calls?  I hear that you care about your sister, but what about yourself?  If you saw this "phone abuse" happening to someone else what would you advise them to do?  Do you think sitting on the phone for an hour or more being beat up, helps your sister feel better?  Is she any happier at the end of the call than she was at the beginning?  Do you think you are responsible for your sister's happiness? 

She is responsible for herself, she is responsible for her feelings, she is responsible for her behaviors, she is responsible for her actions... .she is responsible for her.

You can't change her, fix her, or make her feel better only she can.

You need to be responsible for you and doing what is right for you and clearly sitting on the phone for hours being verbally beat up isn't good for you, particularly when you are doing it out of a sense of guilt and obligation. 

What are some ways you think you could limit the length of these calls?  What kinds of boundaries could you set?

Below are some more information & tools... .Assertiveness & Communication

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=206736.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0

Panda39

[GreenerGrass]

I like the S.E.T. skill set for communication.  I have a feeling that her reaction will get a lot worst before things get better---if they do get better.  Yet, that doesn't mean that I disagree with the method.  I have tried to express my support and understanding many times and the response is rarely positive.  She hates to hear "I understand how you feel that way"--she sees that as dismissing her somehow as I couldn't possibly understand how she feels--our lives are too different.  As I gain a better understanding of BPD, I think the boundaries will be easier to set.  She will be so mad, but the conversations usually end just as they started anyway.  What seems to make her the maddest is when I don't drop everything to attend to her extreme anxieties and anger--referencing the same things over and over again.  Out of desperation I guess, she frequently threatens suicide.  I realize my story is so similar to many of the participants on this site.  But--as I am sure you know---it feels like such a unique family situation--a very disruptive and never ending situation always hanging over our heads. I so want peace, but realize it really is out of reach. I used to think I could make a difference.Both our parents are still living and it is there wish to see peace among their children before they die.

[Panda39]

What if you used SET to tell your sister that you will be hanging up the phone when she becomes verbally abusive. Could that be a boundary? 

Something like... .Wow that sounds frustrating, I would feel upset too, but I can't continue to talk with you if I'm being yelled at let's try and have a calm conversation.  If she keeps it up just tell her... .I'm going to hang up now we will talk again when things are calmer... .and hang up. (notice the "I" messages no "you"

Do this every time... .enforce the boundary that you will talk to her when she calm and not abusive.  She could get worse before she gets better (essentially have a tantrum or "extinction burst" because you are not responding the way you usually do) but if you are consistent with the boundary she will learn that you will not talk to her when she's abusive.

Could you prepare some excuses to end the phone call or limit the length of the call that you keep handy?

I'm, sorry I've got to go someone is at the door, I will talk to you again soon.
I can talk for a few minutes but I'm just heading out the door for an appointment.
I've got to go dinner is ready and I need to get the kids fed.
I'm sorry I have to run I must have eaten something that doesn't agree with me.

Then end the call. End it even if she wants to keep talking.  I know you're thinking to yourself but that is soo rude... .so mean, but is it really?  Who's being rude here?  You by politely stating you need to end the call or her by continuing on and on and not respecting your request?

My other thought is how about communication more via email vs the phone.  Email slows down the interaction so you have time to think about your response or if you respond at all (if it's abusive GreenerGrass bashing don't respond).  It could be a way to keep communication open without being trapped on the phone for hours.  You could be in touch with her more frequently in little ways... .send an article about her favorite celebrity hunk or a pretty picture you thought she would like... .keep things light.  At the core of BPD is the fear of abandonment so having frequent light contact via email might be helpful in terms of her knowing you are there for her but it gives you enough distance.

How do you react to the suicide threats? This can be FOG but also should be taken seriously.  Is your reaction to stay on the phone with her longer?  What if you told her you were concerned for her safety and will call the police in her town to check on her?  That is what my SO did when is ex made suicide threats and it either de-escalated her or she was taken to the hospital and received professional help.  Frankly a win/win for her and it took my SO out of a situation that he wasn't trained to handle... .just something to think about.


Below are some links about JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) and circular arguments that might also be helpful when having conversations with your sister... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

And I found a workshop about inappropriate phone calls (it seems to be directed at partners in a romantic relationship with someone with BPD but the principals should apply in your situation too)... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=137370.0

Panda39

[GreenerGrass]

I haven't heard from my BPD sibling for several weeks now.  During our most recent interaction she continued to blame me for not convincing all family members that any adversity in her life was our fault.  We live in adjoining states, so several times earlier this year we met each other halfway to try to work things out.  She wanted to repeatedly tell me her story and make me understand how the family had impacted her life and how that snowball keeps rolling and getting bigger.  In her mind, the blame on me has 99% to do with my unwillingness and selfishness to convince my family that there is absolutely nothing wrong with her. Prior to accessing this site,  I told her I was sorry for not really understanding things well all of these years, but she says she cannot sense sincerity and a bona fide apology. So, I know that no matter what I say, the words are futile and I cannot make things better.So, should I give up and not contact her--doing so will only intensify problems on my end.  There has never been a positive outcome for any length of time.  Yet, I know the  sense of abandonment is so intense for BPD.  The loneliness of her life is heartbreaking, but there is no compromising---seems I am either all in, or completely detached. Again, since both our parents are so elderly, it would be so wonderful to reach some level of tolerance while they are still alive.  But---I really don't think that is going to be possible.

[Panda39]

... .I told her I was sorry for not really understanding things well all of these years, but she says she cannot sense sincerity and a bona fide apology.

Ah, the old double bind... .damned if you do and damned if you don't 

So, I know that no matter what I say, the words are futile and I cannot make things better.

You might want to think about radical acceptance here... .she is who she is and she is going to do what she is going to do.  You cannot fix her, you can't reason with her, she won't suddenly become the normal sister you hope for... .I'm not trying to bring you down here but get you to look at her as she is.

Radical Acceptance

Radical acceptance was developed by Marsha Linehan, PhD.  from the University of Washington (see article) and is based on the ancient Zen philosophy that each moment is complete by itself, and that the world is perfect as it is. Zen focuses on acceptance, validation, and tolerance instead of change.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0

So, should I give up and not contact her--doing so will only intensify problems on my end.

How so?

There has never been a positive outcome for any length of time.  Yet, I know the  sense of abandonment is so intense for BPD.  The loneliness of her life is heartbreaking, but there is no compromising---seems I am either all in, or completely detached.

I think there can be a middle ground if you can radically accept your sister as she is and create boundaries that protect you. 

I found when I finally radically accepted my SO's uBPDxw for who she was and stopped trying to figure out why she did what she did, stopped being angry at her for the things she did, and stopped trying to rescue my SO and his daughters from her... .when I took myself out of the Drama Triangle... .things improved for me.  I learned about BPD and began to see patterns in her behaviors, the chaos lessened, I began to anticipate her reactions to things which helped me be better prepared.  I accept that she is who she is and she will do certain things, I am no longer surprised, no longer get upset (for the most part  ... .nobody is perfect ), or try to rescue or fix.

Can you accept that your sister is just going to say what she is going to say about you?  Can you let it go?  Can you try not to fix her/her situations, Don't jump on the Drama triangle and not JADE (Justify Argue Defend Explain). 

Besides acceptance to me boundaries are key.  If she calls and is abusive end the call... .you don't have to listen but ending the call doesn't mean you've ended all contact with your sister or that you're mean or rude.  It is teaching her what you will and will not tolerate and protecting yourself from verbal abuse.

Again, since both our parents are so elderly, it would be so wonderful to reach some level of tolerance while they are still alive.  But---I really don't think that is going to be possible.

Is this the reason you want to continue contact with your sister? Your parents desire for you two to get along?  What about you?  What about what you want?  Are you conflicted between what you want and what they want?  Could that be in part why you are contact/no contact? Contact to please your parents, no contact to please yourself (or protect yourself from abuse).  I know you care about your sister too, she is your sister but maybe think about your contact with her and how that looks based on what you want/need vs what your parents or sister want/need and start there. 

Contact with your sister can be of varying degrees depending on the boundaries you set around the relationship, it doesn't have to be all or nothing and it can be fluid and change.

I want to share some info on the Karpman Triangle keep it in mind when interacting with your sister.  Are you on the Triangle?  What role are you and she playing?  Are the roles moving around the triangle?  How can you get off the Triangle?

Karpman Triangle

The Karpman Triangle, described by Stephen Karpman is a very useful tool for understanding "stuck" relationship dynamics. The roles are Persecutor, Victim, and Rescuer. We may start in one position, but as another (or others) shift around the triangle, so do we.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

Panda39

[Pilpel]

A friend of mine recently turned me on to Terri Cole's podcast "Hello Freedom."  Her talks are in video and podcast form.  But she has several episodes on setting boundaries that are really good.   Check out itunes or the videos on her website:https://terricole.com/videos/

[GreenerGrass]

Very interesting and "spot on" information.  Thank you.  I definitely have been in the drama triangle.  I appreciate the insight.  I have much to learn and practice.