Sleep deprivation

[Radcliff]

The primary purpose of these two polls are to find out how prevalent intentional sleep deprivation is.  As a secondary question, I wanted to understand if there are any gender differences between male and female pwBPD.

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[bananas2]

Does screaming at the top of his lungs at midnight count as "loud noises?" Yes? Ok then, I casted my vote correctly. (I apologize for the snarkiness - I'm in a "mood" today). 

To be fair though, I'd say that I probably keep him up past his bed time more than he does me. He gets up very early for work, so goes to bed very early. I don't do it intentionally. It's just that on his "Mr. Hyde" days, I have to put up with so much from him, and the frustration builds to a point sometimes that once I lie down with him for bed, my anger from the day bubbles up and comes out at him. Alas, I'm only human.

[Tattered Heart]

My H has done this in the past. It's been a very long time since it's happened and usually starts when we are having a disagreement right before bed.

[pearlsw]

In my case if he can't sleep he can easily dysregulate. He begins to ruminate and then it cascades, and boom he wakes up to tell me the relationship is over. So, that's pretty horrifying.  I think he tries to distract himself with his phone, but sometimes his thoughts turn to me and so I am awoken.

Whereas in past relationships I would have simply asked "Oh, are you okay? Is something wrong?" if awoken, this is sheer dread.

I try to keep an eye on his sleep patterns and encourage regular ones, but there is simply no eliminating this completely. I have been in foreign countries (to the foreign one I live in) and awoken at 4 am while he is in a total meltdown. I have often been told I'll even be left in those countries so that is also pretty scary, but has always turned out to be hot air, though I never, ever knew that at the time.

Because we were staying at an airbnb onetime earlier this year that comes to mind (grrr... .I was so irked this happened under someone else's roof) I immediately put on my crisis line cap and headed into the battle. I calmed and soothed and calmed and soothed and reassured and kept my voice low, but I also try to be very direct and clear and to the point in order to get his thoughts back on track. I took hours!

When he really goes nuts a small part of me wishes I could slap the sense back into him, he gets hysterical, but I am not violent. I use words and retain my dignity as best I can. 

Of course, at the end, if I am "successful" he wants sex on top of all else. As you can guess I am not in the mood, at all, but there are times it is simply better to do this than have a drama, put a period at the end of the issue. I don't mean this as a "reward" for bad behavior, but simply as a way to reconnect and keep him calm. He basically won't calm down otherwise. I gave up this battle long ago. If I cut off the sexual/physical connection he does not regulate no matter how hard I try every other option to get him there. For him this is the signal all is okay and I love him I think. I dunno for sure. I work it out it with myself later as best I can.

As you can imagine I have had to work hard to not hate sex. For awhile I felt like he had ruined it for me forever. But I am over that mountain though. I do fine. Sometimes he gets stuck with my stunned or unsexy face or my talk of recipes or other totally wrong stuff, etc. Even that we try to make jokes about. I would be dead if not for my sense of humor and the ability to make us both laugh very, very hard at ourselves.

Wishing you happy sleeping times!

[isilme]

I can't say it's intentional sleep deprivation - that would imply that the pwBPD is aware of your needs, and not solely focused on his/her own, and are consciously punishing you by knowing you want/need sleep and refusing to let you do it. 

Maybe it could be argued that in a lot of cases, the non being alseep is seen as a form of abandonment - H has accused me of that, and so keeping me awake or waking me before I am ready can happen.  He hates for me to sleep past him on weekends, and will fret and fidget till I wake up, or will get mad if I tell him I am exhausted and need a nap (if I wake early, I try to slip into another room so as not to wake him.  I think a lot of his mood and health issues are not helped by his fear of being asleep, and frankly, like the quiet time before the TV is on and blaring). 

In our case, it seems mostly bad nights he falls into circular reasoning and can't get out, and can get more and more wound up right as I am trying to wind down and doze off.  My need for sleep barely registers compared to his need to freak out.  I got a fitbit to track my sleep so I could tell if I was really having trouble or if I was, as he claimed, simply lazy.  Nope.  I get very fragmented sleep without his "help", and so on nights when he is emotionally off, I get even less.  I have sleep maintenance insomnia - I can fall asleep, but prolly due to PTSD from childhood, I wake easily and often, and so for every hour in bed, I may sleep 30-45 minutes before waking and having to fall asleep again, only to repeat over and over.  It means I miss some parts of the sleep cycle, not settling into deep sleep or REM sleep as much as I need to. 

Since the fitbit, he HAS been trying more to not make noise, to turn off his lights, on nights when he is in a reasonably good place.  On other nights, I just give up and hope I can function at work the next day. 

[Radcliff]

pearlsw -- I think you've hit the nail on the head that for a guy, sex is the ultimate sign of love and acceptance, that he is "safe" emotionally.  Not fair for you, though.  And sadly, if a man is not aware enough of the woman's needs, he is taking and the emotional safety he is gaining may be an illusion.

isilme -- I think you're spot on about abandonment.  If I'm exhausted at 2am and need to work the next day, my wife has no idea -- she just knows that if I fall asleep I am abandoning her, so she will go to abusive extremes to keep me up.

[byfaith]

this question reminded me of something.

When I was in my early 20's I'm in my early 50's now. My dad told me how he would wait until his wife would want to go to sleep and then he would start in on her. It would be about something that they had a disagreement about that day but he would lay low until after midnight and then pour it on. He told me that way she would learn never to bring that subject up to him. He would also know that she had to get up and go to work that morning.

He kind of bragged about his strategy. Wow a lot of crap just came flooding to my mind. I don't blame my parents for who I am but I guess it's no wonder I have some issues. I Had to learn to cope with stuff I saw and heard when I was a kid (my dad physically and mentally abusing my mom and his 2nd wife). The sad thing to me is there are children that have to deal with things 10 times worse than I did (my wife being one of them)

BTW my stbxw has a lot of BPD traits but she rarely tried to deprive me of sleep. At least she didn't do it by trying to start fighting in the middle of the night.

Just thought I would add my thoughts

BF

[Lalathegreat]

As our r/s devolved into chaos it was extremely common for him to start arguments at bedtime that would last multiple hours and leave me exhausted in the morning. These varied from heated "conversations" to rageful and verbally abusive arguments.

[formflier]

Hey... I voted yes for the middle three, but also wanted to clarify that... .by and large... .I've been able to move past this in  my relationship.

Probably a month since the last weird middle of the night thing and perhaps 3 months before that.  It used to be a regular occurrence as in a couple times a week.

":)ealing" with a pwBPD is much easier and more productive with a clear head.

FF

[formflier]

I'm probably an "outlier" on this issue, because I have several sleep disorders.  I wear a CPAP and several other pieces of equipment to sleep.  (Yeah... I look ridiculous... .but it usually works).

So, the general advice to leave and go to another room was impractical for me. 

I basically "shined light" on the behavior and had several MCs really push the sleep issue.  Thankfully... .that part of my relationship is "almost" normal.

Things can get better!   

FF

[Radcliff]

":)ealing" with a pwBPD is much easier and more productive with a clear head.

For sure.  I think as an overall theme for me, moving discussions from inappropriate times (past midnight, when I'm at work) is going to be an early priority.  She would get more of what she needs, and I would not sacrifice sleep and work.  Which comes back to boundary setting for me, and understanding how to do it skillfully.  The need to talk will have to be met at other times, so I may need to be proactive in setting up those times.  To have those conversations go well, though, I think I'm going to adjust my methods of communication.  I believe I'm adept with the tools enough to avoid making things worse most of the time, and sometimes calm very difficult situations, but really not very familiar with how to make forward progress.  That is a topic for another thread!

[formflier]

I think you need to be a bit more focused... .on what YOU can control.

Move "your part" of the conversation to a time better for you.  Let her have conversations whenever she wants.

You each get to choose what you do.

Hopefully... after she calms you can come to compromise... .or maybe you don't.  At the end of the day I'm much more concerned with when you have conversations... .than when she does.

Said another way... if she wants to stay in a room or house by herself and talk for 2 hours... .don't let that affect your sleep.

Do you see how I'm trying to change the way YOU look at this?

Thoughts?  

FF

[Radcliff]

formflier,

I think I get what you're saying, but am not totally sure.  In talking about this, I realize that I may need to be more proactive in picking times to talk.  When you say pick when I talk, is that what you mean?  I can't pick when she talks, but I'm wondering whether if I'm proactive in picking a time to talk her needs might get met at those times.   If I'm not getting the nuances of what you're saying, please elaborate.

[formflier]

It's not really a nuance thing... .and it definitely won't be nuance to her... .it will be shocking.

Let's say it's 10pm and your bedtime.  You get in bed and she comes in to talk about all your faults.

Stay friendly... .let her know it's so important to you that you need to give it your full attention tomorrow.  Ask her if before or after lunch is better?

hush... listen.

don't react... .let the blather go on a bit.

"I'm tired and need to sleep, I can't focus on such an important matter right now.  Please let me sleep."

blather blather blather

"I'll talk to you in the morning.  I'm need to get sleep."  walk out

either to different room... .or to hotel.

Now... .think about my example.  You haven't attempted to control her... .at all.  She is free to run her mouth all night long.  You controlled your ears.

Next day... .check in and ask her when she wants to discuss her matter.  Don't focus on the boundary thing... .in fact... .only discuss if she brings it up.  Be succinct.   Make it about you.

blather blather you left me... .blather blather.

"I needed a restful nights sleep.  Do you want to talk about xyz right now, or after I do abc?  (stay friendly... don't engage)

blather blather

"I'll check in with you after abc to see if we can talk then."

walk out

Do you get the gist of it.

I'm all for being proactive.  I'm much more interested in you being ready for when proactive fails.

Proactive "Hey babe... .I'm planning on heading to bed early tonight.  I've got the next 45 minutes free if you want to chat... .or perhaps I can chase you around the house naked... ."

Listen... .I would actually say stuff like that... .but it was more of a mindset of "staying friendly"... ."being fun"... etc etc.  and giving her a two part choice... .vice opening it up to anything.

Over time... you'll tweak this for your relationship.

Said another way.  My wife's love language is touch... .bigtime.  So... .when she is "stressed"... .but not "dysregulated" I can sometimes offer something physical... .from sex to backrub... .and it will defuse things.  Sometimes... .

Does this help?

FF

[Radcliff]

Hi formflier,

What you've said is what I do, through the leaving part.  She sees leaving as a severe escalation, even if I'm using the exact words and pattern you described.  If I leave the room and try to sleep somewhere else in the house, she will chase me around the house until 2am until she runs out of steam.  If I try to leave, she gets physical (this is where the bag on the side of the house and sneaking out the back comes in, though it can be difficult when the chase is fully on).

The part about being more proactive sounds interesting.  Usually, by early evening I know we're headed into a bad night.  I could start talking about bedtime then.  She will undoubtedly see this as a challenge, and will fight it.  And at that point I head for a hotel.  Am I on the right track?  You are right, she will not like this at all, but if I can identify a way to do it skillfully (communicating beforehand, reasonable boundary, appropriate consequence, consistent enforcement) I'd like to try it.

[Fian]

The thing about boundary enforcement is if she hates you leaving, and you consistently leave when she does X, she will start doing X less.  After you get through the extinction burst.  The key is to be consistent.  Anyway, that is my 2 cents.

[formflier]

  After you get through the extinction burst.  The key is to be consistent.  

I am so thankful that others on these boards got this point in my head, when I was first trying out boundaries.

I screwed an enormous amount of other stuff up, but it is a rare day that I "capitulate" or "cave in" on holding to a boundary.

In fact... many of these posters sometimes make the point (validly so) on some of my posts that perhaps I should "ease off".  A time when I refused to pull my wallet out and give my wife some dinner money comes to mind... .   

Anyway... .if you are going to make an error... .be overly consistent... .vice "nice".  

As you gain more wisdom, hopefully you can determine which issues you "have to win", vice ones where you can "show grace" or "be flexible".

I want to assure you that you must win the sleep issue.  

Many times in a relationships it is unhelpful or even "unhealthy" to cast an issue as "win or loose".  I would submit to the group that sleep is not one of those to "be flexible" on.  

A bit of FF moralizing here as I made a conscious decision last night to stop "dealing with" some troubling issues and get a good nights sleep.  (just happens to be non-BPD stuff at the moment).

This morning I'm having a long breakfast, sipping coffee and sorting out some of these things.  The problems look much more "solvable" this morning.

FF

[formflier]

 I could start talking about bedtime then.  She will undoubtedly see this as a challenge, and will fight it.  

OK... .you will need to do a lot of trial and error to find the right nuance in YOUR r/s.  Even then, you need to have "a bag full of nuance" so that you are not a broken record.

Said another way:  Some techniques get stale.  Using something else for a while lets the stale method get "forgotten" and after a few weeks it can be brought back as a "fresh" technique.

In true FF style... .I'm going to push you to the "big picture".  

pwBPD like to engage in power struggles... .as do some "nons" (especially me... .I like to get drawn into those).  Resist that.

So... .if the issue is "bedtime"... .many times it is best to do a "flanking maneuver" vice address is correctly.

So... .the "main point" becomes an "oh by the way" and a sideshow is dangled in front of the pwBPD as the "main point"... perhaps even one you can concede on.

So... .the pressure is building up on a bad night... bedtime is a couple hours away.

"Hey babe... .as you know... .I've not been doing well listening to you at night.  I'm wondering if it would be better to talk tomorrow breakfast... .or lunch?"

See how the "argument" or "discussion" got shifted about from "your main point" (which is getting sleep).

There is also something particular powerful that happens when you can "agree" with an upset person.  It can be stronger than just "validating".

So... .in this case... .you are "agreeing" that you are not a good listener at night.  Something she most likely has thought and perhaps has said.

I'm not saying never be direct... .sometimes it's good to switch.  

How does this sound to you?  What would this look like in your r/s?

FF

[Radcliff]

FF,

You are 100% correct.  I have had some success in the last couple of days with the indirect approach.  My natural approach is direct for anything I want and this is not always the most effective with some situations and people, notably my uBPDw!  And I will try to act on that advice to develop a bag of techniques because my natural inclination is to find a tool that works and keep using it.  Thanks for all the advice!