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Author Topic: Are you confident that your replacement will also be devalued?  (Read 1229 times)
swimjim
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« on: October 04, 2017, 04:51:45 PM »

If I would have known that my ex was a BPD while I was dating her, I might have treated her differently. I am not stating that I would have always given her everything that she wanted, thus, becoming a doormat. I would have strengthened my own boundaries thinking that maybe she would have respected me more. I would have stood up to her more frequently but in a civil manner. However, would I have avoided being painted black? My ex is now married.  If I find out that she is still happy with him in the years to come, hopefully I will be indifferent.  Can he be better suited for her than I am? Does anybody else wonder about this? 
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2017, 05:30:35 PM »

 Yep. But your over thinking your analysis.
I wish I would have known my exBPD had any PD characteristics. I never understood or cared about what I thought was psychological babble. Now I know different.
One thing - BPD spectrum usually means that regardless of boundaries set, they will not adhere to them. The whole inner child tantrum characteristics of the borderline.
Mine never took heed of my warnings of over texting all of our conversations. I read it was a sign of lack of emotional commitment. Others on this board say it's a way for the introvert to communicate, sorta like a deaf person using sign language. K ?
You are in the right place. You will get much better advice from others that know way more than I do.
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2017, 05:50:06 PM »

Hi swimjim,  

How are you feeling about the marriage at present?  How long has it been since your breakup and could you be beating yourself up a little about how things went in the r/s?

As there are success stories I would imagine that some matches are better than others.  Will people still be devalued?  More than likely.  However it is possible that some partners are more able to cope and remain patient, perhaps have a better set of relationship skills and use all the tools, are getting help and support, seeing a therapist to work on themselves etc whilst encouraging (and ideally succeeding in getting) their BPD partner to go through treatment with their support.  There are a lot of variables.  

Let's face it, in ANY r/s some people are a better fit than others.  :)o I wonder about this with my ex?  No.  I certainly hope someone is able to help him go through treatment some day and hope he can find some happiness in his life however I know for certain that I will not be a part of that as it wasn't right for me.  I think that's the take home message.  Acceptance that things didn't work for a reason.  

Love and light x    
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swimjim
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2017, 06:15:29 PM »

My ex gave me marriage ultimatums after dating 5 months. She was in a rush to get married. I was unaware she had money problems until after she dumped me for my ex best friend. I found out she filed bankruptcy right after she painted me black. She kept me in the dark. After my ex best friend, she quickly married a sugar daddy who is close to 68 years old and retired. I am still hurting over this after 3 years.
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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2017, 06:52:01 PM »

Being left for your best friend is an awful situation.  Were you angry about this?  It does look like your replacement was devalued in that case and she moved onto another.  Maybe what she was seeking was a sense of security.

Had you known about the financial issues she was struggling with, how differently would you have approached things?  Do you feel any relief to know that it would outwardly appear there was some degree of agenda behind her marriage ultimatums? 

In all honesty if she was able to do these things then it would not appear to bode well to have gone further with the relationship.  This type of behaviour could easily have surfaced at any time in the future, causing potentially worse pain and heartache.   

What hurts you most at this point?

Love and light x

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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2017, 08:05:45 PM »

What hurts the most is that the love bombing was all manipulative. When I tried to get her back, she called the police and filed a restraining order that was thrown out in court. I was never threatening to her. She never told me to leave her alone or there would be consequences. She always told me that I was perfect for her and she loved me like no other bla blah bla. I bought into all the idealizing except my gut instinct told me to hold off on buying a ring. It was going way too fast. Now , in hindsight, it all spears she was looking for financial security. But she never shared with me that she had financial problems. In fact, appearances showed she was well off driving a luxury car and getting great implants among other things. I feel like a fool. I own my business. I guess she just saw me as an opportunity to get out of her financial mess. It is a very humbling experience. She never loved me.
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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2017, 08:56:41 PM »

This is her first marriage and she is mid 50's. I have known her as a friend since she was 24. She admitted to me years ago that she got pregnant on purpose to get her boyfriend at the time to marry her. He ran for the hills. I took that red flag down years later and then dated her myself when the child was 15. She tried to gaslight me by saying the pregnancy happened accidentally. In essence, she denied her original story. When I started dating her, I ignored the red flags. She was seductive and I fell under her spell. Nowadays I wonder if marriage is enough for her. Or will there always be something else she wants such as new car, new kitchen , new dog etc. Will there always be an empty hole that could never be filled. This brings me back to my original question. Will there be h$'ll to pay for the husband if he does not give her what she wants. The honeymoon phase should be over. Now the real work in a marriage begins especially with bankruptcy involved. I know I should get to the point of indifference. I'm working on that.
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« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2017, 03:20:47 PM »

Excerpt
This brings me back to my original question. Will there be h$'ll to pay for the husband if he does not give her what she wants.

There are two possible outcomes here.  Yes there will or no there won't.  Can you identify how each would affect you and your feelings?  What would you hope for?  In reality, there are going to be difficulties in her relationships if she is not managing her disorder effectively.  So anyone who is with her will not have things easy.  Can you find positives in the fact that it is not you in that situation?

Love and light x
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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2017, 04:24:48 PM »

Hi Swimjim,

Giving you some feedback but in reverse order.  Hope some of this is helpful to you.

Nowadays I wonder if marriage is enough for her. Or will there always be something else she wants such as new car, new kitchen , new dog etc. Will there always be an empty hole that could never be filled.

In my observation, people with BPD (pwBPD) get married/have children as a way to antidote the fear that they will be abandoned.  The thought process is: person X won't be someone who would abandon me if they are willing to have a child with me, or get married to me.  The problem is even after having kids/getting married, they still have their disordered fear of abandonment to deal with. 

And this disordered fear is part of the "empty hole" they keep trying to fill.  If person X continues to buy things for me, or in one way or another shows me that he/she won't abandon me, then I'll stop be afraid that they will leave me.  She keeps finding "proof" that she won't be abandoned.  But the "proof" is never enough.  The source of her fear is within her, and cannot be sated by the actions of person X.

This brings me back to my original question. Will there be h$'ll to pay for the husband if he does not give her what she wants. The honeymoon phase should be over. Now the real work in a marriage begins especially with bankruptcy involved. I know I should get to the point of indifference. I'm working on that.


If her husband gives her what she wants (at the time) all he does is defer the "h$ll" for another time.  At some point even if he does give her what she claims she wants, she will still give him h$ll.  She will always devalue those close to her because she her disorder causes her to believe that she will be abandoned by those close to her.

What hurts the most is that the love bombing was all manipulative.

Try not to take the "love bombing" personally.  It is just another aspect of the disorder.  The flip side of devaluation (aka idealization).  Everyone that has this disorder (unrecovered) will certainly devalue the very same people they idealize.

When I tried to get her back, she called the police and filed a restraining order that was thrown out in court. I was never threatening to her. She never told me to leave her alone or there would be consequences.

Just devalued you.

She always told me that I was perfect for her and she loved me like no other bla blah bla.

But before she devalued you, she idealized you.

Now , in hindsight, it all spears she was looking for financial security. But she never shared with me that she had financial problems. In fact, appearances showed she was well off driving a luxury car and getting great implants among other things. I feel like a fool. I own my business. I guess she just saw me as an opportunity to get out of her financial mess. It is a very humbling experience. She never loved me.

There are plenty of pwBPD that ruin their financial lives following the impulses of their disorder.  The devaluation might come later rather than sooner but it does come and how it express may be in ways that are completely invisible to you because you are no longer in her life. 

You don't need to see her life in shambles in order to get validation that you are right about her being disorder.  I believe you.  Don't take it personally.  You will get through this.  Just walk away.

If I would have known that my ex was a BPD while I was dating her, I might have treated her differently.

It doesn't matter how you treat them.  They will still go through the motions of their disorder.  If you tried to demonstrate more that you would not abandon her, that would only cause her to believe that you would on those occasions where you could not be glued to her hip.

I am not stating that I would have always given her everything that she wanted, thus, becoming a doormat. I would have strengthened my own boundaries thinking that maybe she would have respected me more.

I don't think respect has anything to do with any of her behaviors.


I would have stood up to her more frequently but in a civil manner. However, would I have avoided being painted black?

No.  I don't believe you could have avoided being devalued.  Not so long as she has this disorder.

Can he be better suited for her than I am? Does anybody else wonder about this? 

He could be better suited for her.  He could have a complementary disorder himself.  Some pwBPD can end up being married and widowed to other people.  For example, I think borderlines can have relatively stable relationships with narcissists.  I wouldn't want that kind of relationship for myself in a million years, not for a million dollars, but that's just me.

Best wishes,

Schwing
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« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2017, 08:33:33 PM »

If I find out that she is still happy with him in the years to come, hopefully I will be indifferent.  Can he be better suited for her than I am? Does anybody else wonder about this? 

He could be better. He could be worse.

Here's the deal. It is co-dependent to value yourself based on how your ex succeeds or fails in her next relationship.

I think we all pass through this thought... .and it is tempting to think this way, but how valid is it really?

Our value needs to come from within.
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« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2017, 09:46:44 AM »

 Bullet: contents of text or email (click to insert in post) schwing  

Thanks Schwing for your help. It is a very slow recovery for me. You have tremendous knowledge on this subject. I remember you stating sometime back that I will not have a light bulb moment (epiphany) and that it would be a gradual dimming of the light. That is exactly how it has been for me. The one time I saw her and her husband together, I passed them in the store and totally ignored her. She was stunned and the husband kind of yelled at her for just standing there stunned. He just may be a narcissist. It would be sad for me to think I wish I was a narcissist in order to gain her affection. I don't think I could act the part of a narcissist if I tried. I am much better than I used to be but I still have my moments.    
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« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2017, 11:39:03 AM »

I think we do ourselves a disservice to devalue our ex's to the point that we think they did everything to fuel selfish needs and the basis and their love was really all a clever manipulation.   To cal a spade and spade, we can sometimes paint them black as a way to deal with our own broken heart. It is easier to think that this huge loss we experienced was not because we blew it.

Why do we reach for such extremes? I think the answer is right in from of us and not complicated. These are intense passionate relationships. People with BPD feel deeply. And many of us were in a place in our life where we were emotionally needy (either acutely or chronically). These are high voltage connections.

Losing in an intense passionate relationship is a huge loss. Losing a child is a huge loss. These are big deals.

They hurt is amplified by the the passion - idealization and the devaluation. "Idealization and the devaluation" is not a healthy dynamic. I strongly recommencement that we not adopt it.
Both in terms of painting our ex black and in terms of looking for idealization in another relationship.

As for futures - I have a case study to consider. Its a one mouse study, so take it as such.
 
Her prior marriage (my ex) ended badly (ultimately her ex committed suicide) and she had 2 year relationships with a famous cardiologist before dating me (that didn't end well - she walked away) and my relationship (which started good, but got very messy during year 4 after the suicide) - with a medical professional (not a doctor) that ended after a year.  Her mom was married more than 4 times... .she had a very invalidating childhood.

So fast forward a decade.

She married a decent guy in 2011, she opened a very successful store (he helped her), and they just celebrated their sixth year of marriage - there are lots of indications that things are going very well for them.

How about the men?

Well the ex-husband killed himself 5 years after the divorce - cardiologist was an older married guy who left his wife and then went back - I met her after my divorce, then went on to date 3 others before landing in the best relationship of my life - and the medical professional went on to marry a really decent women and have a child.

So what does this say about the four of us? What does it say about her? What does it say about the relationships?

I think it says that three of us bumped around and found our way. Two didn't - and while a "passionate idealization/devaluation" style relationship certainly didn't help - they two that didn't had significant other things going on as well.

I think it tells me that, while we almost made it, she did find someone better suited to connect with. Timing and age/experience certainly played a role, but straight up, they fit each other better. Just as I fit better with the person I am with and the other guy fit better with the person he married.

It tells me that, that some people grow and rise up from these emotional whirlwind relationships to be stronger and better people  and some succumb to the pain.

I think it tells me that it helps to see the big picture and not get to caught up in Internet junk and drama psychology. The more I have learned, the more I realize that this is mostly about improving our people skills and understanding human psychology (as opposed to televisions portrayal of life).

Granted this is one case history. And this person had heavy BPD traits, but was never institutionalized or hospitalized with attempted suicide (which is most typical here).









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« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2017, 03:00:28 PM »

Thanks Skip. Believe me when I state that I have no problem blaming myself (accepting my part) in the demise of our relationship. That is part of the reason why my self confidence has been shattered.

I struggle with how she swore I was the perfect mate for her and actually demanded that I marry her after dating 5 months. Then she found new supply and I was kicked to the curb in ugly fashion. When I finally offered her the ring, SHE CALLED THE POLICE ON ME. THEN FILED A FALSE RESTRAINING ORDER. I never threatened her nor became a nuisance. I remained no contact ever since the police called me. That did not stop her from dragging me into court 2 months later with a false restraining order. Thank God the order was thrown out in court but she sat there in the courtroom and actually cried when the judge ruled in my favor. There were no winners in the courtroom. My reputation was vindicated but my self esteem has never recovered. It was like she was a person I did not even know.
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« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2017, 03:48:01 PM »

Can you rewrite this narrative and drop the terms "supply". It will help. Being cool (click to insert in post)

You two had a huge value clash. She placed a very high priority on marriage. You did not. She was ready at 5 months. You didn't react until 30 months. By then she have 2 years of frustration and built up a deep resentment and grieved and moved on. When you showed up with the ring she had a normal reaction "screw you, you put me through hell, and only know, when I have another man and have left you do you want to marry me, I don't want a man iin my life that cares that little for me". The BPD traits amped that up about 10 notches.  That extreme love became extreme resentment.

Many men wait too long in the women's mind. This is an age old story.

Her value: The relationship was ready at 5 months (I know I'm right)
Her feeling:  You didn't honor her love.

Your value: You were not ready anytime during the 30 month relationship - after the fact doesn't count.  (I know I'm right)
Your feeling: If she loves me she'll wait.

<< Kaboom - normal.>>
<< aftershock Kaboom (BPD - ish>>

Make sense?
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« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2017, 04:22:08 PM »

Thanks Skip. Yes it makes sense. The only reason I was not ready was the resentments she would show every 2 weeks after the 5 month mark. She would get angry that she did not have a ring and would punish with silent treatment ,withholding affection etc. I started to think... .what is her rush to get married. She has me in an exclusive relationship. She is past child bearing age to have more children. It would have been nice if she would have shared with me her financial problems. She picked me ex best friend who she barely even knew to start a smear campaign and seduce him. It wasn't until after she painted me black that I found out she had filed bankruptcy. Maybe the only reason she wanted to marry me was to save her financially. This was so devastating. 
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swimjim
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« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2017, 04:23:29 PM »

Thanks Skip. Believe me when I state that I have no problem blaming myself (accepting my part) in the demise of our relationship. That is part of the reason why my self confidence has been shattered.

I struggle with how she swore I was the perfect mate for her and actually demanded that I marry her after dating 5 months. Then she found someone else  and I was kicked to the curb in ugly fashion. When I finally offered her the ring, SHE CALLED THE POLICE ON ME. THEN FILED A FALSE RESTRAINING ORDER. I never threatened her nor became a nuisance. I remained no contact ever since the police called me. That did not stop her from dragging me into court 2 months later with a false restraining order. Thank God the order was thrown out in court but she sat there in the courtroom and actually cried when the judge ruled in my favor. There were no winners in the courtroom. My reputation was vindicated but my self esteem has never recovered. It was like she was a person I did not even know.
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« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2017, 04:57:59 PM »

The only reason I was not ready was the resentments she would show every 2 weeks after the 5 month mark. She would get angry that she did not have a ring and would punish with silent treatment ,withholding affection etc. I started to think... .what is her rush to get married. She has me in an exclusive relationship.

You were not on the same page. It's not a matter of right or wrong. She sees a mans role as taking over financial responsibility. If she was facing bankruptcy, she was probably very stressed.

You don't sound like a guy that wanted to rescue her financially. That's a reasonable feeling to have.

You two may have had many compatibilities - but your were far of on this very significant one.
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« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2017, 05:40:43 PM »

Hmm. Okay. I actually feel worse after the recent feedback. Thanks thou. I will continue on with my counseling.
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« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2017, 05:59:59 PM »

Hmm. Okay. I actually feel worse after the recent feedback. Thanks thou. I will continue on with my counseling.

It makes sense. You know this.

Why do you feel worse? This is the wound to probe.

Is it that if you knew all of this, you might have handled it differently?

If that's the case, then it is a gut punch. But swimjim, we all made huge misjudgments in love iin our lifetime. There are two ways of handling them - face it, learn not to do it next time - or deny it and make up some narrative where we were right and our partner was wrong.  Problem with the latter is that we don't learn.

We learn by doing if we are brave enough to see what transpired.

From everything I had read in your past posts, I doubt that you would have married her at 5 months and with a bankruptcy if you had a do-over. That's not who you are.

But more importantly, I think the next time you are in a relationship and there is an onging frustration with your partner, you will take it seriously.

Or you can biy the emotional vampire, narc supply narrative - she was just drinking your blood - nothing you did mattered.  Being cool (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2017, 01:48:10 PM »

Skip one of the best pieces of advice... .thanks.

I am going to use it for myself and future relationships.

At this point I quit trying to assign blame I just want to realize that we both had different values on so many things.

Do I think her values were messed up? Yes.  When the clashes happened they were not pretty. Of course in my mind most of the behavior she acted out in response to our differences was over the top and we could not come to a compromise and we could never live in peace.

Not sure if my response fits into the context of this thread... .It just does not do me any good to try to continue to blame her

BF
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