Can't get past the guilt, but I really don't want this anymore

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Wentworth I'm trying to document best I can, she is all over me so it is incredibly difficult to keep things or get away for enough time.  I hope you are doing well.  By all means the links you shared clearly indicate that I am in an abusive relationship (my T agrees), yet I still feel like I should be tough enough and "man enough" to deal with this... .or so I'm told.  Is it FOGgy in here?

(bolding by Wentworth)
Oz, it's natural to feel this way.  That is part of our socialization as guys.  And then she throws her FOG on top.  You see the deterioration in your health and job performance (ditto here, b.t.w.).  You know the truth, but it's hard to admit.  Nobody should have to put up with this.  If you go away this weekend, spend some time documenting.  Write down what you remember.  As many anecdotes as you can, including quotes if you remember.  Just do it for yourself, maybe you'll show it to someone, maybe not.

I can't remember, have I told you to read "Should I Stay or Should I Go?" by Lundy Bancroft?  He is writing for women, but I found it to be very relevant to what we're going through.  Then I read, "Why Does He Do That?"  You need to read these books.  Now.  I wish I'd read them sooner.

WW

[Radcliff]

Wentworth I'm trying to document best I can, she is all over me so it is incredibly difficult to keep things or get away for enough time.  I hope you are doing well.  By all means the links you shared clearly indicate that I am in an abusive relationship (my T agrees), yet I still feel like I should be tough enough and "man enough" to deal with this... .or so I'm told.  Is it FOGgy in here?

(bolding by Wentworth)
Oz, it's natural to feel this way.  That is part of our socialization as guys.  And then she throws her FOG on top.  You see the deterioration in your health and job performance (ditto here, b.t.w.).  You know the truth, but it's hard to admit.  Nobody should have to put up with this.  If you go away this weekend, spend some time documenting.  Write down what you remember.  As many anecdotes as you can, including quotes if you remember.  Just do it for yourself, maybe you'll show it to someone, maybe not.

I can't remember, have I told you to read "Should I Stay or Should I Go?" by Lundy Bancroft?  He is writing for women, but I found it to be very relevant to what we're going through.  Then I read, "Why Does He Do That?"  You need to read these books.  Now.  I wish I'd read them sooner.

WW

[Radcliff]

Hey Oz, I was thinking a little more about the issue you raised of feeling like you should be able to take it like a man.  You have proven that you are strong enough to take the abuse.  It will take even greater strength to break free of it.  Putting a stop to abuse, protecting your children, and dealing with the danger your wife poses without being vindictive in your treatment of her -- this is as manly as a problem could possibly get.  Nobody who has not been there can possibly understand.  I am not a combat veteran, but from what I understand from the ones I have known, and the cancer survivors close to me, this is one of those ordeals that is not understood by outsiders, and you cannot afford to give a rat's **s about what others who have not been there think, or about your preconceptions about manliness before you began this ordeal.  Survive.  Get the job done as best you can.  Success will not be clean or easy.  It's going to be a mess.  Figure out what's important to you, deal with the setbacks, and keep driving through it.  The only thing you must not allow to happen is stalling.  Learn.  Plan.  Act.  Keep moving forward.  You absolutely can do this.

WW

[ozmatoz]

Everyone thanks again for hanging with me through this.  The last couple of weeks have been really tough.  I am completely moved into the other room at the house, she has taken her rings off and claims (again) that she dropped her retainer money off at the attorney.  I'm not sure I buy this because she keeps pestering me if I've talked to mine again (I havent)  I feel like she is trying to bait me into this mess again.

But what I would really like to ask the group is what is the message behind the message I received last night and this morning:

During arguments she keeps telling me that my words of love arent followed up by action.  Well, lets see flowers, dates, chocolates, books, coffee, cleaning the house, home for dinners, cooking more... .all have been thrown back in my face (sometimes literally) as meaningless.  She keeps telling me she wants some sort of "grand gesture"  Now I'm not that type of person and really dont think they fix anything.  She tells me that its not about how I feel about it, its how she feels about it and if she was "that important" to me then I would choose to do it.  Take this a step further and she has been after me for years for a bigger ring (currently very high quality 1.25kt set in platinum).  So I had told her years ago that I would look at a bigger ring around our 10th anniversary.  After her affair 3 years ago (8th ann) I basically said nope, not happening.  Fast forward through a bunch of crap and she says the ring is back on the table as a renewed hope and promises of our love... .

I don't really believe her and I don't really believe that it will fix anything.  Not to mention what she has now told me she wants is in the range of $50,000 (yes thats $50k).  I told her that I was not going to do it.  That there is not even a possibility of me buying a $50k ring.  Her response?  Well you choose not to pick me, so I choose not to live with someone that won't choose me.  Your choice, $50k ring or I'll make it a $50k divorce... .  followed up by "watch me do it".

I get this is the Fear part of FOG, but what the heck am I looking at here?  what on earth is there to validate in this?  What kind of ultimatum is that, and what could she possibly trying to angle for?  (it is entirely possible that she wants a ring that big, she likes to flaunt herself).

I'm broken at this point, I just don't have anything left to give.

-Oz

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Oz, It's easy; a no-brainer.  Say No to the ring and let the chips fall.  So be it.  I went through a similar dance w/my BPDxW: new car, new house, new job.  At the end of the day, it didn't make any difference because none of these material things could change the emptiness that she felt inside.  My suggestion: don't allow yourself to be manipulated.  Stand your ground.

LuckyJim

[babyducks]

Hi Oz,

This is a theme that repeats a lot on these boards.  Buy me the bigger ring, the larger house, the grand gesture.   It's pretty common.

As we were talking about in another thread the other day I said, I believe that people with BPD often derive their sense of worth, maybe even their sense of self, from how much other people are serving them.    How other people are meeting their needs.

LnL here taught me that there was no way I could under estimate the depth of shame and self loathing some one with BPD feels.   pwBPD cannot self soothe like some one who learned to emotionally regulate so he/she seeks others ways to get her needs met.   These are not garden variety needs, they are core to her sense of self.   In order to get her needs met she has to keep a lot of balls in the air so that the shame does not surface and overwhelm her.   We all do this to some extent.   people with BPD do it to excess because of the intensity of their feelings and impulsivity of their actions.   the behaviors can feel very personal and often they are much more primitive in the sense that she is trying to survive the catastrophe of not feeling whole.

This made a lot of sense to me.   Especially the part about garden variety needs. what I experienced was that the wants and needs of my partner were about defining my partners sense of self  .   In my partners case it was, "if you give me a present and a card once a week I will experience the sense of being loved."   I am guessing for you it's "if you buy me a 50k ring I will feel loved'.

my experience has been that it was never about the present and the cards,  it was about feeling unloved.   and that was a bucket with a hole in the bottom.   no matter how much effort or action I put into it, it was never enough.    

my two cents.

'ducks

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I agree with Lucky Jim and babyducks.

I think it is also because they don't do internal validation and seek external validation in various forms, usually material things it seems. It doesn't last, though. They seem to always need more.

The ultimatum seems like a control tactic probably to give herself a feeling of power over you. My ex gave me several ultimatums which I refused to give in to. I hate feeling that someone is trying to manipulate me into doing what they want, not caring about my feelings. To me, that says his wants and needs are more important than mine instead of working together on getting both our needs met somehow.

My ex seemed to equate love with a price tag which always felt odd to me. The more expensive the gift, the more he felt "loved". I preferred someone put thought into my gift that shows they know me, no matter how inexpensive it was. I would much rather have a hand made gift from my kids than something they bought from the store. He never seemed to understand that.

I think it could also be something they feel they can use for external validation with other people... ."Look at me! I have this very expensive thing! That means I'm better than you!"

I hope this makes sense and helps. I need more coffee.

[Lucky Jim]

she is trying to survive the catastrophe of not feeling whole.

Like how you put that, 'ducks.

my experience has been that it was never about the present and the cards,  it was about feeling unloved.   and that was a bucket with a hole in the bottom.   no matter how much effort or action I put into it, it was never enough.

Right again, ducks.  That's the black hole; it can never be filled for long.

LJ

[Radcliff]

Hello Brother Oz, I am glad to see your update.  I was worried about you.  You've gotten good advice from the others.

Instead of a ring, how about you suggest a ceremony where you renew your vows?  This would require planning and staying on the same page for a decent period of time, so of course it is unlikely to happen.  But it is something wholesome and reasonable that you can suggest, that is in line with your values, and needn't cost a ton of money.  It could be a grand gesture demonstrating true love.  It is something you can suggest with genuine love and feeling.

Stay strong, we're behind you!

WW

[ozmatoz]

Thank you everyone for the quick reply. I’m on my phone so I’ll have to be brief.

I really see the point of deriving self worth from “things”. It’s been a rift in our relationship from day one. I too would much rather the paper drawings my kids give me over anything grand.

I did say no to the ring which is why the manipulation of  the divorce will cost the same garbage started.

It then switched to fine, then book a kick ass vacation, or quit your job. Of which I still can’t afford to do.

She did mention new vows and new promises to go along with the ring, you may be onto something, she said she wants something “meaningful “. Problem I have with that she wants it NOW and I don’t believe we are anywhere near close enough for that and I truly believe whatever I do won’t be viewed as enough (hole in the bucket).   This coming from someone who when I leased her a new Audi (that was a stretch) she made a joke to friends that well it’s not a Range Rover, but it’ll do. Talk about punch me in the gut.

More later. Thank you everyone for the support and understanding. I need to give it some thought.

[flourdust]

She keeps telling me she wants some sort of "grand gesture"

When I see this sort of thing, I really start to wonder if there's some sort of BPD manual out there they are all following. My ex used the exact same term, all the time.

As babyducks and others have said, there's a bottomless pit of neediness here -- a need for validation, a need to counter insecurity, a need to be reassured that there is no abandonment. It can only be quenched temporarily by some external action -- like a declaration of love or a $50,000 ring -- and then it returns. Like a junkie building up tolerance, the required dosage keeps increasing. Next time, it will be a new and more expensive house, or a baby, or a cruise around the world, or a trip to the International Space Station. Who knows?

Certainly, you might be able to give her the fix she wants less expensively, and that's an OK solution. The only real long-term fix is for her to develop better coping mechanisms to manage her insecurities -- and that's going to take a committed investment in therapy. Unlike all of the other grand gestures that cost money, this one can actually work.

[ozmatoz]

BabyDucks thank you for some validation I really feel like my whole life, no matter how hard I pushed, or worked, or loved I always felt I was coming up short.  I would just work harder and I know I finally burned out.  Feeling like never enough for so long really has damaged my self esteem and has had a direct affect on my personal relationships and career.  That is priority one on the fix myself wishlist if I can ever get this relationship moving in one direction or another.

I_am_the_fire thank you again for your kind words.  I agree that I feel odd when gifts needed to be related to dollars. Even at Christmas I have to watch her try to tally dollars for each kid.  One is 10 the other 16.  They want vastly different things at different costs.  Just because D16 got a new iphone doesn't mean D10 needs $500 of arts and crafts!  She just claims I'm cheap.  Compatibility red flags are everywhere when it comes to finances.  I hope you found your coffee!

LuckyJim  I said no to the ring and I'm going to try and stay strong and pretty much say no to any "grand gesture" at this point.  I really believe no matter what I do I would come up short and be right back here again after a few more wasted months and dollars.  Going to try and take the stance, here I am, you've known me for 17 years, you know what we are capable of as it hasn't been all bad.  Pretty much take it or leave it.  I'm tired of the bait and switch and moving goalposts.  I just don't have the energy to keep up anymore.

Wentworth Always there for me, thank you and stay strong yourself!

Flourdust I snuck a quick visit in with my T this afternoon and she was laughing about this very same thing!  She said she couldnt believe how textbook my wife was... .  We have the bigger house (2x now) and the nicer car, a million pets.  You're right it just never seems to end.  Therapy would be awesome but she just flat out refuses.  Says I'm a narcissist and the one that needs help because I can't "see all the lies" I tell her (invalidate a bit too much over the years I guess).
Its like fighting city hall, she just can't see the problems.

Thank you all, I'll update when I can.
Stay safe
-Oz

[ozmatoz]

Well, I'm still alive after the weekend but more has come through that really is just pushing me to be finally done with this.

She has completely pushed the alienation of my parents to a new level.  They have for years had a wonderful relationship with her and the kids.  My mother actually provided day care for us a few days a week.  They've helped us financially when buying our house and were a tremendous help when D10 was in the hospital over the years.  It was the kind of relationship that is supposed to be there with grandparents.  Now?  FoO is off limits.

She picks at me daily as to whether or not I've talked to "mommy and daddy" she even says it to me in a childish tone (why?).  Starts to make fun of me saying oh look at you you'll be a loser 40 year old living with mommy and daddy.  Tells me they are no longer allowed at our house and she'll call the cops on them if they show up.

Last night we were discussing when we would see D16's school play.  It runs this Friday, Saturday and Sunday.  Part of the story is that D16 has the lead role and has been working on this play since July.  uBPDw wanted to go on opening night but refuses to go if my parents will be there.  My parents texted me saying that Friday was the only day they could go because they are flying out to Florida on vacation the next morning.  When hearing this, wife was really agitated and literally stood there staring at me motionless for somewhere between 5-10 minutes while I folded laundry.  Eventually she grunted out "You chose them over me, again!" and stormed off.  Was I supposed to tell me parents that they can't come?  What would I tell D16?  Sorry Nonny and Grampa could only go on Friday but Mom said no?

Its just entirely too ridiculous at this point.  She refuses therapy and I probably have 5-10 really good years left with my folks... .  I know she's trying to guilt me into "choosing her" but I just can't do that and pretend my folks don't exist.  Its bad enough that D10 keeps asking when the next time she's going to see them is... .

I guess there always is a straw that breaks the camels back.  I'm sure I'll waffle though... always do.  Need to dig deep for some strength and just start walking my own path.

Be well everyone.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Oz, I went through the same thing with my BPDxW in terms of my FOO.  I think you handled it well by scheduling your parents for that Friday night.  It would seem easy enough for your W to go Saturday or Sunday night, if she is so uncomfortable around your parents.

Needless to say, at the end of the day it's not about your parents; it's about her fear of abandonment, which is a hard thing to quell.  My BPDxW used to set up the same me vs. them dichotomy when it came to my family members.  Of course, if it was her family, it was a different story.

My advice: continue to keep up your r/s with your parents and other family members, because you're going to need their support when the going gets rough down the road.

LuckyJim

[Radcliff]

Hey Oz, still kicking here.  Your parents are going Friday night.  End of discussion.  Your wife can go any night she wants.  If she goes Friday, sit with her, fine.  If she goes another night you could go both nights.  Hell, cover it by going all three nights!  That's the kind of crazy thing a dad would do for a D16!  Awesome that she has the lead role!  Seriously you probably need that third night alone to video the performance!  Empty that memory card and get that spare battery, dad!

WW

[ozmatoz]

Thanks everyone, its days like today that are tough though.  So many family memories on Halloween.  Sorry for the long post, but I think I really need a sanity check today. 

She began raging at me last night because I said I was going to go to town meeting.  (I have friends in town that are politically connected and they needed more folks at the meeting for a quorum).  I waited until I helped get D10 to bed before I left.  Apparently there was an item she was concerned about and had wanted to go.  She did not tell me this until I got there and then I sat the whole meeting getting text blasted. 

If she had wanted to go,
1) why had she not gotten ready to go instead of crawling into bed with D10?
2) When I told her I was going, rather than get angry because "I dictated" what I was doing rather than asking why couldn't she pipe up and say "Hey there's actually something on there that is important to me, I'd like to go"

I know its an age old problem of spouses expecting each other to read minds, but does anyone feel BPD makes that worse?  I am so often accused of things that I had no idea even existed.

Sorry to continue the post but while I was writing this I just got blasted again, trying to make heads or tails.  Trying to figure out if there is something I need to validate or is this just dysregulation via text.

Her words, (my backstory in parenthesis)
I asked you to choose me or leave. (She actually asked me to go because she was so mad). You left.  Ugly divorce was YOUR words. (I've repeatedly asks her for NOT ugly).

You moved out of our room. (Yes, she put up a "wall" of pillows between us I told her I wouldn't stay with that). You moved out of our home. (nope, I stayed at my parents for two nights that werent even consecutive)

If it wasn't moving out why take your memorabilia? (she had already thrown items across the house and out the windows, so I moved a box to my parents house, of course I can't tell her I'm afraid of that). And multiple bags? (yes I brought some work clothes to leave at my parents place). And return to the house while I wasn't there to grab more stuff? (I went to the house that day to speak with a contractor, not take more stuff).

You haven't filed because you are a coward.  You certainly haven't changed anything about the way you treat me.

I am not a coward.  I will move on. I DO deserve better. I deserve someone who doesn't underestimate me. (?) Who listens and respects me rather than disregard.  Someone who doesn't need to control me. (couldn't be farther from the truth)  Someone who loves me fiercely and generously and CONSISTENTLY. Someone who chooses me.  Someone whose "me" time is actually "us" time.

What do you deserve?  The family you chose I guess (I believe she's referring to my parents).
It wasn't the girls and I.
/End
 
I just don't understand why she continues to feel controlled.  I really for years have wanted/begged her to be her own person.  If you want something speak up, if not I'm going to make decisions.  If you don't agree, tell me!  She feels like her silence is now me trying to control her.  I've got enough on my plate I don't need to deal with her stuff too but she just can't believe that.  She says that I created a dynamic where I needed to feel that authority and still do.  I'll have to ask my T about this, I feel like I was just trying to lead the family best I could when I wasn't receiving any feedback.

And if you've made it this far, thank you.  The BIGGEST rub in all of this has been her telling me how selfish I am for wanting "me" time.  She says that once I decided to have kids and a family I took on obligations to put them and her first, always, no exceptions.  She used to go out every week for coffee and shopping with her girlfriends.  If I want to stop for a beer with a bud after work some day?  Nope thats abandoning the family.  She tells me she "encouraged" my running and photography but it was all talk.  Any time I tried to get out for a run it was an inconvenience that I then somehow had to repay with family time. (not that thats a bad thing but shouldn't be traded like this.)  Photography?  forget it.  I've told her for years that I needed to save for some new equipment (no more things are important) and god forbid I ask for an entire afternoon away?  nope nope nope.  Is this enmeshment?  Am I being selfish for wanting some time to actually be me?  Why wouldn't she want her own "me" time?

There really seems to be no hope here.
Thanks for letting me vent.

-Oz

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Oz, Why are you JADE-ing?  We know that you're not selfish, a coward, etc.  Suggest you avoid buying into her version of events, which is largely a function of her disorder.  It's hard in a marriage, I know, to ignore comments and judgments from one's spouse, but I suggest taking what she says with a grain of salt.

LJ

[flourdust]

I know its an age old problem of spouses expecting each other to read minds, but does anyone feel BPD makes that worse?  I am so often accused of things that I had no idea even existed.

Yep. Misunderstandings or differences of opinion are given the weight of bad intention -- so it's not a mistake, it's malicious sabotage. It's one of the more pernicious cognitive distortions --jumping to conclusions-- that can corrode a loving relationship.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

There's quite a bit here I'd like to talk about but I'm not quite sure where to start. Sorry if I jump around. I agree with Lucky Jim and flourdust as well.

She says that once I decided to have kids and a family I took on obligations to put them and her first, always, no exceptions... .

This sounds to me that she has certain expectations/assumptions about you but didn't communicate this in the beginning of your relationship. Her belief seems that she and the kids should be your #1 priority and nothing else should matter. I disagree. It's about balance. You can't give and give without taking care of yourself. You're just going to get worn out and have nothing left to give. It also reminds me of isolation, a form of control, possibly from her fear of abandonment.

Why wouldn't she want her own "me" time?

Reminds me of a martyr type of complex or something - "Look at me! Poor me! Feel sorry for me! I give 100% and you give nothing! I gave up everything and you should too!" type of thinking. It's up to her to find her own "me" time. If she doesn't want to or make an effort to, that's on her and not on you.

Am I being selfish for wanting some time to actually be me?

Nope! Everyone needs some "me" time. You can't pour from an empty cup. If you don't get your needs met, it's not good for anyone. All of this could be enmeshment from her. It sucks and is frustrating to deal with.

I just don't understand why she continues to feel controlled.  I really for years have wanted/begged her to be her own person.  If you want something speak up, if not I'm going to make decisions.  If you don't agree, tell me!  She feels like her silence is now me trying to control her.  I've got enough on my plate I don't need to deal with her stuff too but she just can't believe that.  She says that I created a dynamic where I needed to feel that authority and still do.  I'll have to ask my T about this, I feel like I was just trying to lead the family best I could when I wasn't receiving any feedback.

This could be a passive-aggressive thing. I did this in my marriage. Once I realized it, I apologized and started to speak up more. Then our marriage really tanked. It seemed he couldn't handle it when I finally spoke up about some things, mostly when I stood up for myself. Looking back, I think we had created an unbalanced relationship. I didn't speak up. He did whatever but I didn't really care. I was too depressed to care. In my case, I was afraid to speak up. Some of it was how I was raised and being in abusive relationships for years. He didn't help because at times when I did speak up, he treated me like a child and I hated it. He was very condescending to me and put me down quite a bit. I didn't have much confidence in myself which is one reason why I didn't speak up. I tried to talk to him about all of this with a counselor's help but it seemed to fall on deaf ears. 

I don't get that vibe here from what you say about your wife, though. It could be that she has a different definition of what control means. It also could be that she is trying to be the victim here and trying to manipulate her version of events to match that. What is her definition of control vs yours? I felt my ex was controlling in many ways. He would tell me a lot of "you shoulds". He would question my whereabouts almost daily towards the end of our marriage. I felt he was interrogating me and that he was always trying to catch me at something. I even got the third degree from him one day when I didn't tell him I was getting coffee on the way to work. It was aggravating. I now realize he is extremely insecure and had intense fear of abandonment throughout our entire twenty year marriage. I think those feelings got worse when he thought he was losing me. His reaction and "fix" was to hold on tighter which made me run faster away from him.

He claimed I was controlling and that I was the one projecting which was mind-boggling to me. Now I know that my being co-dependent can be considered a form of control, more passive-aggressive at times. So I actively work at not being co-dependent or passive-aggressive. As for my projecting, I still disagree with him on that one and have talked with my therapist about it quite a bit. She really helps me with sanity checks. I'm not saying your wife is correct but that she probably has her version of what things mean and you may have a different version. There may be some truth in there somewhere but it can be hard to distinguish it all without help. I hope that makes sense.

I'm glad to hear you're going to talk with your T about it as well. It's always good to check if we're contributing to this somehow and/or just for sanity checks.

[Radcliff]

Oz, it feels to me like you've got a pretty good grip on reality here.  The things you are asking for for yourself are totally reasonable.  Sure, you can put your family first but that doesn't mean that you aren't even on the priority list.  It is reasonable to expect her to support you running to keep yourself healthy.  It's about balance both ways.  I've known guys who were so committed to "me" time I questioned it, but that's not you!

Since we're keeping track (though I haven't actually counted) our wives appear to be totally in synch still.  Everything you said, I've heard in my home.  The control thing in particular.  If my wife swears at me and ridicules me, and I decide to leave the room, she thinks I'm abusively controlling her.  We have all the same silly stuff around mind reading, etc. I sometimes push ahead with a plan and don't communicate well, especially when I was a younger husband, but I've found that even when I bend over backwards to have her voice be heard, she does not participate like an equal partner.  It seems she'd rather complain than do the work to make things work.

I'm not offering any great advice, but you are not alone!

WW

[ozmatoz]

Wow, so much to say here.  Seriously thank you everyone for helping me keep my sanity.

LuckyJim So very hard to not give her thoughts and feelings weight.  We've been together for 17 years.  What she says should be important to me but my grains are her mountains.  It is exhausting trying to overcome Mt Everest all the dang time.  I feel like if I'm not exactly perfect or things don't align just right I'm off on another expedition to get back to "normal".  And "normal" today has been talking about how's she is ok divorcing and moving on, then 3 sentences later asking why I'm not fixing the marriage.  My head is about to spin off.

Flourdust thank you for sharing that link.  I've read it a few times and I can grasp the concepts but I'm having a hard time applying them to my particular situation.  I think I'm so lost in the FOG that I'm having a hard time navigating.  I will re-read this over the weekend if I can sneak away.

I_Am_The_Fire thank you again for a heartfelt post. I really agree that she does not communicate her expectations well (back to the mind reading).  The one problem I believe she has though is I truly believe she may not really know or understand what her expectations are.  So they change on a whim and I am always on the wrong side of the fence!

She often tells me that she gave up her whole life to follow me and help boost my career.  She wanted to move away from where she grew up, but I think she wanted to be living in a castle with servants and not have to work.  She seems very entitled.  I wonder if this is just her over exaggerating because "life hasn't been all roses"  We only live about 6 hours away.  I often hear her say that what we have isn't enough, that she wants to upgrade... (we're not rich but we're doing just fine).  The more she wants, the more I have to work, the more I work the more abandoned she feels... .you can see where this death spiral is headed.

When you say that your marriage tanked when you started to speak up, do you believe that you speaking up coincided with you "waking up" a little and creating boundaries?  She says I was the controlling one, but my actions were really doormat style doing whatever I thought she wanted at the moment.  I'm trying to be more forthright with my decisions and she sees these as me just doing whatever I want (and thus abandoning her thoughts and feelings).  The downside to this is when she does give input to decisions they are often based upon something unobtainable and puts me in the position to constantly tell her no.  This is really crazy making.  And I will certainly by talking to T next week about my feelings of being a bit co-dependent and what that is bringing to the table.  Although while I want to fix my own issues, I'm not hopeful that she'll want to fix her half.

Wentworth I appreciate the vote of confidence.  A bit mind boggling, most of my close friends are husbands of her girlfriends.  They often shoot out for golf a couple times or do a few other short things together.  These should be "safe" people but frankly I'm so afraid and tired of the backlash that I stopped asking to go and have also stopped being asked as well.  It always felt like I was under the gun and time clock.  You've got 2 hours, not a minute more!  Their wives expect that there is family time and I know they do.  I know they also do the same "housework" like taking care of lawns and fixing crap up as well as helping with the kids.  I'm very aggravated and frankly the dreaded resentment has set in that I'm being held to some "higher standard".
Fast forward to earlier this year where I was asking for more balance and it all falls apart.  Now I'm firmly entrenched in my camp that I need a life too whether that be time with friends, family or alone.  She's firmly entrenched on the side that "me" should be "us" and any free time I have should be spent with her and working on making her and the girls my #1 priority and fixing the marriage.  Fixing the marriage using one of the things that broke the marriage?

"It seems she'd rather complain than do the work to make things work."  I've often heard her say to me that "I'm not worth the work"... .well there you go... chalk up another similarity.

I probably won't have a chance to be back on here over the weekend.
Stay safe everyone.

-Oz

[Radcliff]

Hey Oz, just an idea.  Since conforming to her expectations hasn't seemed to work, what if you find an opportunity to go out with the guys that conforms to your values and just do it?  If you think that D10 and D16 are squared away and the guys are doing something, why not just go for it, and buckle in for the ride afterward?  Be firm and friendly, and couple it with a lot of validation.  Tattered Heart has had some good advice on this when she's aiming to go out with friends.  She gives her husband lots of notice, and mentions it several times over the previous week, then couples it with validation.  Now, our wives can add some extra complications by trying to sabotage the outing, but what's life without a challenge?

I have tried this approach a few times with my wife, and if I'm respectful, empathetic, but firm, confident that I'm being reasonable w.r.t. the relationship, I feel pretty good about doing what I've said I'd do, and if I catch grief for it later, I remind myself of how respectful I was and how I deserve some things for myself, and I get through it.  Hey, it's not perfect, but sometimes I appreciate that things are better than being totally sh*ty and I get some dignity back

WW

[ozmatoz]

My goodness this roller coaster doesn't want to end.  It is so scary how they can twist anything (and usually everything) it something to bash you over the head with.  How can I even be alive if I'm wrong this often?

She's on me again about seeing my therapist.  I wonder if there is a fear here that the T is waking me up to her crap and that I will leave?

The latest drama is over her work schedule.  I have for the 17 years always been the breadwinner by a significant margin as well as had the steady job to hold health insurance (very important for D10 who has health issues). 

She has recently taken a part time job in an industry that she is passionate about and the job has taken a bit more time that she originally expected.  Now normally anyone wouldn't argue about the extra hours considering we just sent D16 off to private school and money is tight.  It used to be 1 day a week (sometimes not) that she would be working late and D10 would need to be picked up from school at 2:30.  Normally my mother and I would take care of this, mostly my mom was glad to help out so I didnt have to leave the office at 1:30 but I have enough flexibility to handle it occasionally.  Recently it became 2 days a week almost every week.  Again my mom would help out and I would jump in when she couldn't.  Now that uBPDw has severed relationships after an argument my mom is no longer allowed to pick up D10 from school.  uBPDw has even written to the school to formally block it.  I am left scrambling.  Recently uBPDw told me she had to "formally" let her employer know if she couldn't do 2 days anymore and had to make sure that I knew it would "hurt future potential".  I had to put my foot down and say I could only do 1 day a week and that was pushing it if I had to do it every week.  I am not a part time employee.

I tried to use this as a wedge to work on the r/s with my parents and said that we could do the 2 days if my mom could help again.  The answer wasn't just a "no" it was "if she decides to contact the schools or try anything else I will seek a restraining order against her"  Yikes!

Now she must have seen my T appointment on the calendar for tomorrow morning and she texts me "How is it that you can only manage to cover the kids 1 day/week but you can still fit therapy in during your work day?"  I replied that its early and easy to go in just a bit late every two weeks, its another thing to leave a half day twice a week every week.  She just doesn't get it.  I cannot work part time.

Her response "Its a bit bull sh--t frankly that you can't make accommodations for my work schedule but you can for your appointments"

I think its BS that she can't realize that without my job we have zilch.  This isnt even an argument that I can win, it just keeps going... .

I don't know where my line in the sand is, but my gosh I must be getting close.

[Harley Quinn]

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