Is my respecting her wishes conducive to re-attraction?

[Sargeras]

More than any other point in my life which I can recollect, the last couple of weeks I have had a strong desire to learn, implement, and do the right thing. My dignity has always been very important to me.

There's a woman I'm concerned for. I want to do what's right to build her up and allow her to feel safe and respected. I do not want to undermine any kind of trust she has for me by attempting to conceal an agenda. This woman is my BPDexgf of two years who broke things off with me about 3 months ago and is seeing somebody else. She's in a long distance relationship with said person. She expressed desire to keep me around and be friends, to which I agreed. There was no breakup fight, nobody begged anybody, and to this day we have remained very good friends and have frequent contact.

She's had a history of abuse with ex boyfriends who have raped and beaten her. She has very poor boundaries as a result of both this and her illness. While she sustains a strong desire for her body to be respected, I think she has a very difficult time saying 'no' to physical contact she does not wish for and often times will feel as though it is obligatory.

Up until about 3 weeks ago, I would touch her a lot when we hung out- not really granting any acknowledgment to our new, platonic circumstances. Kiss her on the cheek, hug her, cuddle with her, hold her hand, whatever. She never told me to stop. It seemed as though she really enjoyed it at times and took comfort in it. We talked about this during a therapy session, in which she stated she felt like she had to do it so as not to upset me and cause any kind of friction in the relationship we have now.

Since then when we've hung out, I've kept the touching to more of a minimum. Even now, I probably still touch her too much. I'm going to really cut it down and not touch her in any way that constitutes overly flirtatious or sexual.

The problem is, on one hand, I feel like those things are necessary to re-attract her and that if I don't do them, I will solidify a place for myself in the "friendzone". On the other hand, I want to really acknowledge and respect her wishes to start a relationship with somebody else. I don't want to play games anymore. I don't want to manipulate. I want to do what I struggled to do during our romantic relationship, which is to genuinely empathize with her and open up to her thoughts and feelings. I want to LISTEN to her. To my credit, I have been doing a much better job of that. She recently told me I'm her best friend and that she can talk to me. The physical contact however I can't seem to reconcile with myself.

I sincerely believe that in the coming months her long distance relationship with this guy will erode. Am I shooting my chances of getting back together with her to hell by cutting back physically? Am I making myself look like a doormat?

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[pearlsw]

Hi Sargeras,

Welcome to the family!

My first instinct here is to tell that you the physical contact, aside from a hug or something when you first approach or say goodbye, has to stop based upon what she said in this therapeutic setting. She has stated in therapy that she felt she had to do it so as not to upset you or cause friction. That is not her saying she wants it or enjoys it. You are on much safer ground being in the friend zone very clearly for now. You are, it seems to me, for all intents and purposes in the friend zone. That is not a bad place to be.

Why are you in therapy sessions with her if you are not a couple may I ask?

If you want to reattract her do it verbally. But why are you trying to do this if you "want to really respect her wishes to start a relationship with somebody else"? If you want to respect her wishes then respect them and keep to firm boundaries. If you need time away to break the attraction and then want to try to be friends later that seems like the better option to me from what I am reading here.

I just want to caution you that as a woman we live in a world where men often try to gain access to our bodies without our consent. Many of us walk around in fear our whole lives over this. Men can approach us nicely or aggressively, and yet both be crossing boundaries and pressuring to us to do things we don't want to do. Women are often socialized to be accommodating and nice and not push back although we don't want the contact. We are also afraid because when we do push back we can be physically attacked. Your friend has been raped and beaten. You are not respecting her body if you keep pushing across these boundaries on the pretenses of being a friend. If she is your exgf she is your ex. I know it is not easy, but try to keep that line firm.

If you are her best friend be her best friend. If you want to date her again ask her and if she says no accept it. Let her go and date others. If she wants you at a later point she will let you know. It is much healthier to draw some hard and clear boundaries on this stuff or you will just be torturing yourself with your feelings for her. If you have feelings it is not a good idea to try to be friends. Take a step back until your feelings are gone, ask someone else out who is emotionally available to you. She is not the only fish in the sea.

[Sargeras]

Hi pearl,

Thank you for your reply.

She just wanted to sit outside one of my sessions at one point while I talked. I invited her to come in and talk at one point and she accepted. That's the only time we've seen a shrink while we werent dating.

Just to be clear- I've really backed off since that therapy session. I'm not frothing at the mouth unable to keep my hands off her. Prior to us talking and getting it all out in the open, I didn't know there was a problem. When we were touching, it was smiles and giggles for the most part. It seemed mutual.

Since this session, I've talked a lot about how somebody with her history can have such poor boundaries srounf that kind of thing, and I feel like ab idiot for not having made that assumption on my own given how much I know about her past.

When I said I probably touch her too much now, I don't mean to say I'm still kissing her on the cheek or trying to cuddle or anything, but a hug or two too much.

I did not mean to imply in my original post that I'm undecided as to what course to take. I'm definitely going to keep to firm boundaries on that. My fault for not articulating.

I wrote this because I'm curious as to how these new changes will affect our future dynamic.

Im alright if we see each other less tha we have been. It's hard not talking to her. I'm always happy to hear from her and I enjoy her company.

[pearlsw]

Hi Sargeras,

Thanks for those clarifications. I know it is not so easy to explain complicated things and get this stuff out.

I managed to stay friends with lots of ex's but it was easy for me because the romantic feelings were not there. We had just built up such strong friendships and a level of comfort and so much knowledge about each other that the support was invaluable. It is hard when you are not quite emotionally done in a romantic sense and there is a lingering hope the spark might come back.

What I am fearing is that you aren't ready to give up the relationship? You are worried that by being in the friend zone, once you are there, you will always be the friend and never have a chance to be the boyfriend. How long do you want to wait around why she begins dating others?  What was the reason(s) she cited for the breakup? It sounds like this was not mutual. I am sorry this has been painful for you!

[Sargeras]

Hi Pearlsw,

It is very hard for me to really face the prospect of losing the relationship. And I don't just mean in a romantic sense, I mean losing her as a friend too.

When she broke up with me, things went from 60-0. She had just gotten back from a week long cruise with her family. I didn't suspect any kind of looming breakup. She told me she "wanted to live a different life than the one she had been" and "while we had a lot in common, she wanted to be with someone who was going at the same pace she was". For awhile, her reasons were vague and not exactly eye-opening... .

During our therapy session however, she said that during our relationship, she would go between bouts of seeing me as a friend, and then seeing me in a romantic way, and then back again. She said that she doesn't know what the future holds, and that it's possible we could date again (I didn't take this as her showing interest in dating right now, just as her acknowledgement that things could change).

It's very difficult for me to not be hopeful in some regard. I know her very well, and my gut feeling tells me that right now she is distracted with something else and will come back in time. She's gotten jealous when she's found out I'm talking to other women. For the final 3 months of our relationship, I was wearing an ankle monitor and we couldn't go out and do anything. This was hard on her. I know that she sees me as a friend right now, and that's alright, but she has a Borderline personality and can turn on a dime. Every fiber of my body tells me her new relationship will end. She's already cited that she can't move to go be with him for at least another year because she can't afford it. In the mean time, it's her seeing him several days out of each month. When and while she's with me most of the time, I've just tried to implement things I've learned here and enjoy my time with her. I'm really happy with where our communication is right now. It's the best it's been since we first got together over two years ago.

Whether my perception of things is accurate or not, it doesn't really matter because at times I allow this hopefulness to get in the way of my moving on. It's like I'm picking at scabs.

I'm still going to be talking to her. She's getting a job where I work soon, and I'm going to be driving her. On some work nights for commute purposes, she'll be spending the night at my house.

I've made plans with other people and I try to get out of my house a lot more often. I don't try to make contact with her all the time. I've made a lot of progress and I do feel a lot better about breaking up with her than I did 3 months ago. 

I'm trying not to 'wait' for her and just live my own life.

[CycleBreaker123]

I sincerely believe that in the coming months her long distance relationship with this guy will erode. Am I shooting my chances of getting back together with her to hell by cutting back physically? Am I making myself look like a doormat?

I'm curious why you believe that things will not work out between her and her boyfriend?   I'm also wondering what he thinks of you continuing to be involved in his girlfriend's life?   Why do you need to be "friends" during such a time - you can always be friends next year, instead of simply accepting her "friendship" as a way of keeping yourself involved right now.  Surely it must be painful to be friend zoned by your ex - are you worried that taking some "time off" will risk losing her when she is finally ready to rebound?  Are there other 'orbiters' that you know of?  My BPD friend tends to keep several within arm's reach - I think it's just what these people do - "do nothing til you here from me" is business as usual.  It's fine as long as you are okay with it.   I was just unclear why you think her boyfriend won't work out, whatever that may mean.

[Sargeras]

It's been a few weeks since I made this post, and some things have changed.

I'd like to be her friend because I very much so enjoy her company. I wouldn't really consider it a struggle any longer to be her friend because I've been seeing other women. I've taken my foot off the gas with respect to contacting her. It's mostly her reaching out to me now. She had a very jealous bout a week ago where she lashed out at me for seeing somebody else... .Kind of backwards.

I don't think it will work out between them because they hardly get to see each other, and it's going to be like that for awhile. She admitted to me that she hasn't told her bf about our contact for the most part. He knows we talk, he just doesn't know we talk as much as we do. To be completely honest, I don't care what he thinks or if he disapproves- it's her decision. This is the guy she left me to be with. He had been talking to my ex while she was still dating me.

Ironically, things have been pretty good between us since we broke up. We've rebuilt a lot of our communication and we have a great time when we see each other.

I'm not saying I expect us to get back together, but I would not be surprised if we did as I'm not really objected to it.

I hope that made things a little more clear.

[CycleBreaker123]

It's been a few weeks since I made this post, and some things have changed.

I'd like to be her friend because I very much so enjoy her company. I wouldn't really consider it a struggle any longer to be her friend because I've been seeing other women. I've taken my foot off the gas with respect to contacting her. It's mostly her reaching out to me now. She had a very jealous bout a week ago where she lashed out at me for seeing somebody else... .Kind of backwards.

I don't think it will work out between them because they hardly get to see each other, and it's going to be like that for awhile. She admitted to me that she hasn't told her bf about our contact for the most part. He knows we talk, he just doesn't know we talk as much as we do. To be completely honest, I don't care what he thinks or if he disapproves- it's her decision. This is the guy she left me to be with. He had been talking to my ex while she was still dating me.

Ironically, things have been pretty good between us since we broke up. We've rebuilt a lot of our communication and we have a great time when we see each other.

I'm not saying I expect us to get back together, but I would not be surprised if we did as I'm not really objected to it.

I hope that made things a little more clear.

The only thing clear is she gets to "have her cake and eat it too".   Exciting new playmate, with her prior boyfriend willing to accept friend-zone status.   It's like telling my wife "honey, I have another wife now, but it would be terrific if you and I could still hook up now and then".   Ain't gonna happen.    I've been in your situation once - never again - it just became too painful.   What really started to hurt was when she would get mad at me about something, so she punished me by complaining about the new boyfriend, about how he didn't treat her well, what a jerk he was, etc, but she can't leave him because "the sex is just astonishing".    Suffice it to say I was not interested in double-clicking as to what exactly was so astonishing.    That was the worst.   That "astonishing" term is pretty much guaranteed to send an ex partner into a jealous FRENZY.    Anyway,  it sounds to me like you have plans to "win her back" -  or at least you hope to do so  - which isn't exactly what "friends" tend to do, it's what orbiting ex boyfriends do.   But why accept "friends" status at all?   Such was the big lesson that I learned.   Is such a requirement to hang out with each other?    Like I didn't understand the whole "touching" thing you talked about - why is touching "off the table" now?   Especially if she participates in such.   Certainly she must know that you want her back  Isn't it weird to hang out now under such awkward circumstances?   

[Sargeras]

Thanks for not sugar coating it. She's good company. I don't want to hear about her guy, and she knows that. Doubt she'd ever go so far as to brag about sex; she doesn't like it

We work the same job- were gonna be talking to each other. I'm gonna carpool her to and from work. It's not weird hanging out with her. I've been seeing someone else a bit, and I haven't had much interest in hanging out with my ex. The last couple times she's wanted to hang out, I've declined. "Orbiting" as I am, I've treated her like a friend lately.

I think at this point, even though it's the case, she questions whether I still want her back.

[CycleBreaker123]

Thanks for not sugar coating it. She's good company. I don't want to hear about her guy, and she knows that. Doubt she'd ever go so far as to brag about sex; she doesn't like it

We work the same job- were gonna be talking to each other. I'm gonna carpool her to and from work. It's not weird hanging out with her. I've been seeing someone else a bit, and I haven't had much interest in hanging out with my ex. The last couple times she's wanted to hang out, I've declined. "Orbiting" as I am, I've treated her like a friend lately.

I think at this point, even though it's the case, she questions whether I still want her back.

I think I'm just drilling down on the definition of "friends".  It can mean anything you want it to mean.   Do friends discuss their romantic partners with one another?    Well, my friends do.  Talking about people we are involved with is a Major Discussion Topic with my friends.   Do friends shield their friendship from their romantic partners?   My friends don't shield me from their romantic partners.   I don't care what word you use to describe things with your ex - only suggesting that you don't need to label things with her as a "friendship" if that's not what you want.  I guess what I'm asking is "why attempt to keep the secret that you want her back?".   Don't you think she knows that you want her back?   I"m only asking because in your first post you said " I do not want to undermine any kind of trust she has for me by attempting to conceal an agenda. " and it sounds to me like such is exactly what is going on.    I guess all that matters is that you are okay with the status quo, and it sounds like for now, you are fine with the way things stand.