30 days NC and now a messenger message

[truthbeknown]

It's been 30 days no contact and now she reaches out to me.  I had left it at: "if you want to talk about being in a healthy/serious relationship with me then I would be willing to discuss but I'm not going to reach out to you since you're the one who wants to date other men and keep telling me about that."

So she didn't invite me to her sisters wedding ( i knew that meant she devalued me enough to push me away) and her opening line in her new message:  Hi, MY NAME,  hope you are well.  The  big wedding is behind us and My Sister (name) and her husband (name) were gorgous.  I'm not sure of your location these weeks but wanted to let you know that my friend (a singer) will be in (my city) on Sat if you are available to go.  I won't be there but it's truly a great concert if you can attend.  Best, (her name).

I just felt like she is oblivious to things.  She purposely left me out of her sisters wedding and then at the last minute invited a mutual friend who she knew would tell me that she went.   Therefore, not clear why she even needs to take my temperature if she doesn't want to talk.  I think she wants to see if i'm going to answer.  It's a double bind.  If I don't answer it might prove to her that i'm upset at her and confirm her rejection complex.  Yet if i do respond to her she'll probably use that as an opportunity to reject me and say, "i don't want to lead you on ; i just wanted to let you know about the event"  This is my perception based on past history. But also, her bahavior hasn't changed much- she's not calling me or asking to talk to me; she's just using high school tactics to see if i'm mad at her or how i'm going to respond.  She's very narcissistic so any response i'm afraid will feed into her power trip.  Either way I lose.  I have had 30 days of severe emotional pain trying to get over her and dealing with the rejection, wondering if there is another man involved etc.   Already been recycled once and won't do it again.  The last time she was on her death bed and if that didn't change her appreciation for me and life then nothing will.  She has the classic narcissism of wanting to know people still will respond to her.

so my choices are : 1. contact her back with a very short.  "thanks for the info" type flat message or 2. no response at all.

Again I had hoped to be friends but because she devalued me and then used the other friend to hurt me by letting me know that she got to go I just don't think i can.  It sucks and is hard but i'm focusing on what is best for me.   Amazing how she can act like nothing ever happened "now that the big wedding is behind us"  I want to say, "duh yeah i know cause I was invited because you wanted to be available to meet other guys!"  but of course i won't say that.  Sometimes i want to treat someone like her like she is normal but i have to remember she is ill.  I"m still unclear on how to speak to an ill person like her.  It triggers me so much.

any tips? thoughts?

[truthbeknown]

also, wanted to add that the reason not being invited was part of her devaluation of me was that we had recycled and she told me that she loved me and felt more connected after i was there for her during her heart attack episode.  Once she started feeling better she started acting weird again and then treating me like i was putting pressure on her.  So she would withdraw and if i commented on the withdrawal behavior then i was the bad guy trying to hard to get her.   So the last week that i spent time with her I tried to ignore not being invited to the wedding and just have some fun.  We did (i thought) and she stayed over with me the last weekend we were together.  Then called me on that following tuesday after breaking up with her male therapist ( she had only seen twice) and then picked a fight with me.  She started critiquing things that i like and then equating it to things her ex would do.  Anyway, I got triggered and said, " i'm not going to call or contact you since you have stated you want to be free to date other guys/men.  If things change for you then feel free to reach out and we can talk but I won't be subjecting myself to the pain of hearing you talk about other men- especially after we have just been intimate with each other."   

So that's the background - hope it makes more sense and helps to convey why i don't know if it is a good idea to respond or not.   

There is a new song by Sam Smith: "Good at Goodbyes" I almost wish that i could send that to her but it would be sinking down to her level and that isn't healthy for me- however it would keep her from contacting me again.  I'm hurt/ angry etc because I gave her my all it stinks that i even have to deal with an immature message like this.

[evanescent]

I can't get inside your head, but if she treats you this way, why bother to remain friends? What is the end-game?

My wife made it easy on me in that regard by taking her own life, but just a month later, I am still left asking myself what kind of mind-f***ery she was playing with the notes and how she left.

I.e., she has given you an out. If you can't harden that into your thinking and embrace it, responding to her at all only serves to suck you back in.

I've been a bit grumpy today though . .

[truthbeknown]

I can't get inside your head, but if she treats you this way, why bother to remain friends? What is the end-game?

My wife made it easy on me in that regard by taking her own life, but just a month later, I am still left asking myself what kind of mind-f***ery she was playing with the notes and how she left.

Sorry that you had to experience that.

I.e., she has given you an out. If you can't harden that into your thinking and embrace it, responding to her at all only serves to suck you back in.

what's the out? that she didn't invite me to the wedding and cut me to the bone by inviting the other friend who would tell me at the last minute?

I've been a bit grumpy today though . .

Getting sucked back in:  yeah that is the hard part because so many of us don't get closure and I'm not trying to get sucked back in but in my mind wondering how I can get closure?  If i try to stay the friend route she will probably just abuse me more by telling me about her new boyfriends down the road etc like i'm a homosexual friend.  I know I wouldn't be able to handle that.  At the same time, i feel like not answering gives her ammunition to think in her brain that i'm the one who's rejecting her.  That's what's in my mind.  I realize she has got me all twisted.  I think about her everyday and it's been really hard to go these last 30 days without talking to her since the last time together we were making love and then two days later she behaves like I didn't mean anything to her and she apologizes for leading me on.

I'm trying to get my own closure and just not sure how or if that is possible.  hope that makes sense?

[evanescent]

What you are saying makes perfect sense emotionally. We long for the good times and affection, and it is healthy to want more of that. Clearly you remain conflicted about whether pushing forward with her is worth the effort however, which brings me back to the original question: What is the end-game?

BPDs will virtually always paint breakups as the Non's fault, so whether you provide ammunition for it or not is largely irrelevant. Even so, many of us have this need for approval that BPDs often do provide during the good times. It feels good. We feel important. We feel love. But what many of us also need to work on is the notion that what other people think about us is largely out of our control. That when we are doing our best to do the right things and we are still rejected, there isn't much we can do about it. And this isn't just a BPD issue, but generally. Many of us need to practice not giving a f***. It is an important skill to have toward maintaining sanity against the behaviors of people that seem the opposite of sane.

I'm not suggesting a fully psychopathic approach to life in not being able to sympathize or empathize with people, but to develop the ability to step back from the emotion and evaluate how the opinion of another person really affects our own lives. I.e., if you intend to endure the hurt and move on, what she thinks doesn't mean a damned thing. NC is your best choice. Likewise, if you believe the relationship is salvageable and worth pursuing, what she thinks does matter. All you can do is test the waters and find out.

[Readyforsomechan]

 Thank you so much for this post! I totally relate. As for the 30 days no contact, or even permanently not contacting this individual anymore I totally agree that that is the way to go. I’m in a very similar situation at this point, having attempted to do 30 days no contact without success I can only verify that my own pain is magnified each time I open communication with my ex wBPD.

 Is very difficult, which I can verify from my own experience. Very painful, when the ex partner will not participate in closure, and very painful when the ex partner says things like we are not friends and we have not been friends for a long time. Ouch! Time to move on, but first I have to break communication for at least 30 days before my heart can really begin to heal, and I can be open to new relationship experiences. Meanwhile connection with my ex partner continues to reopen old wounds and this is a form of sabotage as I try to meet new women, I’m sure they can sense the pain in my heart.

 Whether I am sabotaging myself, or whether my ex partner is sabotaging me, is really more or less be irrelevant. The last time I spoke with her she was telling  me about her new relationship drama, and yet when mentioned something about my new dating life she didn’t want to hear any of it. At the end of the day, she has moved on and yet she’s not letting go and she seems to be quite content to string me along as a non-friend, non partner, and yet she still wants to communicate with me. Classic Mind-heart-f***!

[Harley Quinn]

"if you want to talk about being in a healthy/serious relationship with me then I would be willing to discuss

Here is the boundary you defined for yourself.  Maintain it is my advice.  Failing to do so only means that you do not honour your own values.  You are willing to talk to her if she actually wants to talk about being in a r/s.  This is not in her message.  I think you have your answer.  

Responding now shows her that you are not serious about what you said and are willing to remain available to her for 'other' reasons.  She is testing the water.  Let her learn that you are committed to what you stated.  If you feel compelled to respond, then send the exact same message to her that you sent, word for word and leave it at that.  It underlines your conviction in the matter and that you are not prepared to deviate from that.

An article that I feel might be helpful to re read if you've seen it already is the one on No Contact - The Right Way and The Wrong Way, which you can find HERE.  I'd be interested to know what your reason for NC is, as you do sound conflicted.  If your aim is to detach and heal then that is very different from wanting to make a point and hopefully get her to alter her behaviour.  :)o you hope to recycle and if so do you see it being different to before?

Love and light x

[AnuDay]

Yes she will twist your brain. Yes she will try to mess with you so that she can regain control over your mind and the relationship, if you intend to enter into one again, at this point it sounds like you are not healthy enough to be in a relationship with someone with BPD. I would say continue No contact until you have more interactions with normal people and regain your sanity.

[truthbeknown]

Harley

As far as reason for NC is because she continues to devalue me when i have tried. We had sex then she talks about needing to be free and not comitted.
She pushed me away and then before ibset this boundary she called and told me that she had fired her therapist and at the end of our conversation she started making devaluing statements.
She said my being nice was me not being confident. Anyway i had had enough of the rollercoaster ride. My fantasy of her deciding to bring me to her sisters wedding (i know her whole family) and having sex with me but then treating me like I'm just a boytoy put me over the edge. I did break the boundary that friday bc it was a religious holiday and bc it was all about forgiveness i wanted a truece.
However after her apologizing for leading me on (which invalidated that i meant anything to her other then a sex toy) she told me that she had told her sister that we were done!
She will not stop finding ways to emotionally jab or hurt me. Even then i expressed wanted to meet 1-1 and she agreed but didnt contact me.
So i don't want to get recycled (although I'm afraid of it) bc she's not a good partner.

And i don't feel like I'm punishing- i feel like she is punishing me by talking about an event i wasnt invited to.
Also i would consider being friends but doesnt value frienship and she'll just keep talking about wanting to date other men!

[Harley Quinn]

i would consider being friends

This is where I'm a little confused.  You've put a boundary on yourself that you won't speak to her until she's willing to discuss a healthy serious r/s however you don't want to recycle the r/s and you would consider being friends.  Are you sure you're done with this truthbeknown?  I ask because if you're clear in yourself the direction you wish to take on this then we can better help you in achieving that.  If you're unsure, that's OK.  We can help with that too.

Love and light x   

[WarOfRoses]

Reply, don't reply.

Be friends, don't be friends.

Recycle, don't recycle.

Whatever you do... it always ends the same...

[truthbeknown]

Harley,

What I meant to say is that I had hoped to be friends but because she is so insistent on meeting or playing the field I don't think I can deal with that.  If during the original break up she had been authentic and told me that she was scared to be in a relationship and that she just wanted to take a break and sort things out I would have respected that.  But instead, she used me for comfort during her heart attack and lied to me about having feelings for me?  well maybe not lied because her feelings change everyday, week etc. 

She and I have a mutual friend who she set up with a Narcissitic man.  The man used the other friend or uses i should say for comfort but then sleeps with other women and tells her about it.  This woman doesn't have the ability to walk away and so she tried to stay friends and then had to deal with the torture of hearing about his new lovers.  I think my ex was mentally taking notes of this and has thought she could do this with me.  I will not be a secret lover for her- I discovered after our last sexual encounter that I have too strong feelings for her to do that.  So I choose to walk away now and stay in the shadows to protect my tender heart.  I know it sounds confusing.  How can someone love someone who is so lost?  I don't know?  I don't even know how it happened.   I also think i sound confusing because part of what i'm communicating is that if she would/could make some magical realization that she screwed up and I saw that she was really doing the work that would be one thing.  I'm not seeing that here/now. 

Maybe a part of me wants to believe we can all change if we want to.  I ran into a 67 year old woman tonight at work.  We shared stories and i told her of this woman.  She said that she had to go through some serious trauma before she changed but people who know her now would not recognize her if they knew her back then.  She said she was selfish and mean.  She got spiritual after some trauma (which she didn't mention) and that brought her to humble herself. 

I think even if this could occur it won't happen until her mom and dad pass.  Her mom is too negative of an influence on her psyche.  Her mom doesn't approve of me and shames her.  I was foolish to think that I could break through this. I was addicted to trying because my own kids are like this woman because their mom (my ex wife from 20yrs) controls their minds.  I was holding hope for this woman because in some way it was hope that my kids could grow up and stand on their own without being influenced by their mother.  I feel like losing this woman is a symbolism that I will lose my children too.

this is why i am hurting so much. I hope that makes some sense. 

[Harley Quinn]

Thanks for clarifying.  I see exactly where you're coming from and can understand the thought process behind it as it sounds very much like my own when I was going through my breakup.  I wished so badly that my ex could get himself better and get on top of the behaviour so that we could have a future.  We knew what would be involved and I just needed for him to commit to that... .It's so very hard to walk away from someone who is so close to everything you ever wanted knowing that it would simply take the effort on both sides to make it work.  At the end of the day if that effort isn't forthcoming then as much as we can understand the behaviour, know the solution, and believe that they can change if they try, it doesn't make it less painful and eventually we have to protect ourselves from more turmoil and heartache.  It sounds like that is where you are at now.

How can someone love someone who is so lost?

Very easily it would seem or else these boards would not be so full of members like us who are coping with the impact of having that love for someone who is suffering with this condition.  Our hearts go out to them and we want to help and fix them.  Perhaps that is the main draw.  It could be the rescuer in us that springs into action.  It may simply be the challenge of being the one who can mean more to them, and enough that they choose the path to recovery.  

I can empathise with my ex in that as much as he was motivated to get through treatment, the fear of change and facing up to behaviours past and present that have been so destructive would be akin to accepting that everything he is is wrong.  Very scary indeed.  Much easier to continue relying on old patterns and avoid that kind of pain.  Eventually I had to give up hope for my own sake.  It's so tough and hurts like hell, but in the long term I'd never make that choice differently.  All I could do was drag out the limbo we were in.  As much as what you're choosing is hard, you are worth a chance at true happiness and holding on prevents that.    

I can see where you're going with the link to your children and that must be very frightening for you.  How old are they?  There is time whilst they are kids to influence them tbk, so as much as you fear the possibilities, also try to remember that you can be a stable, steady and positive role model whom they can make up their own minds about when they are old enough.  I know that doesn't make your concerns less, however it's vital we do focus on what we can affect and consistently being the type of individual you'd like them to emulate is the best any parent can do.  I'm currently putting huge efforts into validating my son in an attempt to reduce the possibility that he may have emotional instability as he grows up.  Every effort we put into our children can go towards giving them a fighting chance at a healthy life.  

Do you mean to communicate your decision tbk or simply remain NC?

Love and light x  

[truthbeknown]

Harley,

Thanks for clarifying.  I see exactly where you're coming from and can understand the thought process behind it as it sounds very much like my own when I was going through my breakup.  I wished so badly that my ex could get himself better and get on top of the behaviour so that we could have a future.  We knew what would be involved and I just needed for him to commit to that... .It's so very hard to walk away from someone who is so close to everything you ever wanted knowing that it would simply take the effort on both sides to make it work.  At the end of the day if that effort isn't forthcoming then as much as we can understand the behaviour, know the solution, and believe that they can change if they try, it doesn't make it less painful and eventually we have to protect ourselves from more turmoil and heartache.  It sounds like that is where you are at now.  Yes

Very easily it would seem or else these boards would not be so full of members like us who are coping with the impact of having that love for someone who is suffering with this condition.  Our hearts go out to them and we want to help and fix them.it's not so much wanting to change them-
 its the addiction to hope and the projection that I/we would do it for them so why won't they do it for us?  I get attached to fantasy that people will wake up and realize their part.  Very silly indeed. Perhaps I am not mourning the fact that she won't change but that my belief or hope in happy endings was just a fantasy in this case but it makes me feel like their pessimism has won.  Her sabotaging and belief that relationships don't work out now colors my reality and i have become part of that darkness (at least for now) But I have to admit I am taking on her projection right now bc I have a horrible track record now in relationship.  My fear with letting her go is that she is right- relationships don't work out!

 Perhaps that is the main draw.  It could be the rescuer in us that springs into action. I've learned alot about positive projection in this relationship.  It's not that i'm trying to rescue her.  I was really probably trying to rescue me/ my inner child who has been let down by love much too often in my life.  My projection of hope onto her was really just what i would want someone to say to me (ie.  I told her that i believed in her and that she could heal this pain inside of her) I guess I was really talking to my inner child.  It may simply be the challenge of being the one who can mean more to them, and enough that they choose the path to recovery.  

I can empathise with my ex in that as much as he was motivated to get through treatment, the fear of change and facing up to behaviours past and present that have been so destructive would be akin to accepting that everything he is is wrong.  Very scary indeed.  Much easier to continue relying on old patterns and avoid that kind of pain. yes Eventually I had to give up hope for my own sake. me too.  I'm not answering because i have finally given up.  Which is probably what she expects but if i try to reason with her then she will judge me as weak.  There is no happy door.  The only door for me is to mourn this ; greave this- and the grief is me giving up on my dream of hope that somehow my belief that love can win has been shot down.

It's so tough and hurts like hell, but in the long term I'd never make that choice differently.  All I could do was drag out the limbo we were in.  As much as what you're choosing is hard, you are worth a chance at true happiness and holding on prevents that.   thank you.  I'm afraid I won't ever find it now.  I feel a bit shipwrecked and that i'll be marooned on a remote island where love between two people doesn't exist for me.  This is my shadow speaking of course but it feels real right now.

I can see where you're going with the link to your children and that must be very frightening for you.  How old are they?  The youngest 13 and the next 16.   Unfortunately I am trying to survive and don't have a thriving career so i'm not much of a good example in the way that i would like to be.  I do see them every other week but it doesn't seem like enough.There is time whilst they are kids to influence them tbk, so as much as you fear the possibilities, also try to remember that you can be a stable, steady and positive role model whom they can make up their own minds about when they are old enough.  I know that doesn't make your concerns less, however it's vital we do focus on what we can affect and consistently being the type of individual you'd like them to emulate is the best any parent can do.  I'm currently putting huge efforts into validating my son in an attempt to reduce the possibility that he may have emotional instability as he grows up.  Every effort we put into our children can go towards giving them a fighting chance at a healthy life.  Here's the other thing for her - she feels like a failure as a mother and maybe i do as a father too.  So it was our core wound together.  I have empathy for her in just wanting to be a mother and focus on her kids but she unfortunately didn't have the ability to handle this maturely with me.  She needed to let me know that she could get attention from other men rather then just tell me that things were getting too real for her.
Anyway, I need to do the same for my kids as you say.  

Do you mean to communicate your decision tbk or simply remain NC? Communicate my decision?  you mean tell her i don't want to remain friends? I think that any attempt that i make to explain myself will be used against me.  One of her friends that she pushed away told her that she only wanted to tell people her problems and stories but didn't want to listen to anyone else.  My ex used this to say, "she was never really my friend anyway.  She was just somebody that i was hanging out with"I said, " so am I going to be the next (that woman's name) and she said, "it's different you're a man and she's a woman."  I still don't know what she means by that?  anyway, I feel that telling her anything about her behavior will just give her ammunition to color me black.  Maybe i'm wrong- maybe she already has?  I think she has more Narcissism then borderline in her (although there is both) and the Narc in her wants to control everything. I am trying to find a way to stay out of the game.  I may be making the wrong decision.  It hurts so much to not want to just send her love.  I know that is the part that feels dysfunction now.  How did loving someone get so dysfunctional.  How is it that loving someone has been turned into being a love addict (she called me that after i made love to her last) Still hurts.
I just want to lick my wounds.  I'm used to being alone so it is there that i must return.

Love and light x  

[Harley Quinn]

I was really probably trying to rescue me/ my inner child who has been let down by love much too often in my life.  My projection of hope onto her was really just what i would want someone to say to me (ie.  I told her that i believed in her and that she could heal this pain inside of her) I guess I was really talking to my inner child.

Hi tbk.  These could have been my own words.  I've explained this to my counsellor last year.  I feel that my desire to help others stems from my own desire to be helped, supported and cared about.  It definitely runs deep.  It's good that you're able to recognise this.  It's what we do next with that which can make a difference towards our futures overall, the types of partners we gravitate towards and how we relate in our r/s's with others.

I feel a bit shipwrecked and that i'll be marooned on a remote island where love between two people doesn't exist for me.  This is my shadow speaking of course but it feels real right now.

This is a sad side effect of going through such a tumultuous r/s and painful breakup with so much heartache and disappointment.  We have had so much hope riding on things working out and in my case I was convinced that we would be the ones who would make it.  I can honestly say that despite having moved on and feeling free of the initial wounds, it feels like the furthest thing from my mind to meet someone new and commence another r/s.  Right now I'm far more focused on working on myself and getting to the root of my own issues so that I might be in an emotionally healthier place for myself and my future life, which I wish to achieve before I'd ever consider wanting to share that future with another person.  At the same time, I can assure you that whilst it's natural to feel as you do right now, it does pass and I do believe that not only am I capable of a loving r/s but deserving of this and that it is certainly possible it may happen in time.  You will get to that place too.

Unfortunately I am trying to survive and don't have a thriving career so i'm not much of a good example in the way that i would like to be.  I do see them every other week but it doesn't seem like enough.

I had to abandon a thriving career for health reasons and I believe that setting an example to our kids by showing love to them and teaching them how to care for themselves first and foremost is far more important than how much money we make.  I'm so sorry you feel that you don't get enough time with your kids.  That is really hard.  Even the shortest time can be used to convey the most vital life lessons in your actions and words.  You can show them that you care enough about yourself to not be in a destructive and damaging r/s.  That is a very important thing to role model for them.  Imagine how you would hope that your kids will be as individuals when they are adults - in their characteristics and attitudes - then be that yourself.  Show them the way.  They will pick up on these things and it is these that matter more than anything else.  Don't underestimate your influence on them.  I'm sure they value their time with you as much as you do the time you have with them.  Just enjoy every second you're together and show them what it means to you.  Listen to them.  Validate them.  Be there for them when they need you.  There's nothing better you can do for a child.

I'm used to being alone so it is there that i must return.

Take the love you were giving to your ex and give it to yourself.  Remember the friends and family who love you and surround yourself with these people.  Focus on your kids.  Invest in yourself.  Learn and grow from this.  And yes, lick the wounds, grieve and heal.  Reach out for all the help and support you need.  You're not alone in this.  You have family here and we know what this feels like, so keep posting and take good care of yourself.  This gets better. 

Love and light x 

[truthbeknown]

Thanks Harley. Your words and kindness mean alot to me!