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Author Topic: Are you experiencing a lot of conflict with very little resolution?  (Read 720 times)
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« on: November 12, 2017, 09:08:07 AM »

Mini-series: Understanding and Ending Drama

Are you experiencing a lot of conflict in your relationship with very little resolution? This article has helped many to get on a pathway to systematically reducing drama in their life.

We can get caught up in a conflict and lock ourselves into rigid and self-satisfying/self-punishing roles that limit our abilities to live our lives in a healthy, happy, and relaxed way. Drama is a team effort and you can change and reduce drama in your life. This mini-series is about understand what drama is, what fuels it, and how you can change your role in this toxic chemical reaction.

                Triangulation - Our Relationships Affect our Well-being
There was a significant advance in psychiatry after World War II.  Therapists observed that many battle-torn veteran patients who had been in treatment overseas regressed after returning to their families. Researchers searching for an explanation began to explore the effect of family relationships on individuals and found that some home environments were extremely beneficial to patient healing and recovery, and that some were extremely detrimental. Prior to this time, psychiatrists and psychoanalysts focused entirely on the patient’s already developed psyche and considered the effect of outside detractors, like relationships, to be insignificant.

In 1966 Murray Bowen, M.D. published Bowen's family systems theory. One of the most critical elements of Bowen's eight part theory was the concept of triangulation in the family. Simply put, when someone finds themself in conflict with another person they will reach out to a third person. The resulting triangle (e.g., three-person exchange) is more comfortable as the tension is shifted around three people instead of just two.

Triangulation is widely recognized as a stabilizing factor in a family, at work, among social groups, etc. We all engage in triangulation because triangles help us cope when we are struggling with another person."

So the first point in this series is to understand how prevalent "triangulation" - is in your life. "Triangulation" is going to a third party when you are in a disagreement with someone is a normal reaction. Say you and I can't agree on what is OK when it comes to interfacing with members of the opposite sex outside of our relationship... .so one of us go to a third party an says "don't you think it is wrong for my husband to take his secretary to lunch".

Triangulation!

So, how many times has there been triangulation in your life this month, November 2017. Think hard when making your list. Don't forget to include posting here. Don't forget your therapist.
 

More information:

Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle (full article)
1) Triangulation: Our Relationships Affect Our Wellbeing
2) Good Triangulation and Bad Triangulation
3) Drama Triangles - Pathological Conflict
4) How Drama Triangles Form
5) How Drama Triangles Escalate Drama
6) Escaping Drama Triangles
7) Avoiding a Life of Drama Triangles
8) Start Using the Caring Triangle / Winning Triangle
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This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2017, 10:48:24 AM »

We are in a particularly turbulent time working through some important issues with help, so I have lost track of how many times this month there has been triangulation with friends, family, therapists, and others.  All of it has been deliberate, and hopefully most of it healthy.  That is my viewpoint, but I my partner's viewpoint may differ.

There is healthy and unhealthy triangulation.  It looks like that's going to be Topic #2 for this workshop!  Setting up healthy triangulation seems tough sometimes.  I think there may be some situations, like at work or with friends, where it is easier.  When privacy and two-person exclusivity is expected, like in a romantic relationship, especially a marriage, it seems tougher to accomplish in a healthy way that all parties feel OK with.

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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2017, 11:02:21 AM »

How many triangles did you have in November?  Can you list them. Think beyond the obvious.

The ideas is too look at how much of this we are doing and, later, to compare and contrast the types.
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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2017, 02:53:51 PM »

We don't have any me/her/other triangles in as much as we both confide in the same person, it's more allies, I confide in someone to hopefully get a better external picture of my own reality, uBPDw seeks validation of her reality from at least 5 different groups. I do triangulate though

Legal mediator - I guess this case ntraxdicta the above comment as he is helping us drawer up divorce agreement
I was telling off my D4 and she was being very defiant, as asked my D9 to confirm that mummy and daddy weee the bosses of the house and D4 should do as we ask because we try and act in her best interests... .interestingly D9 told me it wasn't anything to do with her!
The kids try and triangulate by getting me involved... .I try and stay out of it now.


My general experience with the drama triangle has been the dance around it rather than pulling in a 3rd party. I am often the 3rd party that is either dragged in or join to help resolve drama... .but typically my starting gate rescuer is shifted to being the perpetrator by the subtle shift of my wife to being the rescuer or victim. More karpman triangle that triangulation strictly. I think I find this the most frustrating part of my relationship. The no good deed goes unpunished mentality where I try and help with good intention but end up being run over... .but then not rescuing also feels like a non-option!
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2017, 11:37:57 PM »

I am curious about this topic as it comes up on the boards a lot. Whenever I read up on it I must admit, I can't quite personally relate to what I read. I tend to keep to myself and not share my problems with family or friends. When I do talk about things I tend to just want to be listened to and don't look for others to solve my problems. I am still reading here and elsewhere about this dynamic and saw that there is a book that offers the antidote to this triangle, a more positive version of it. I hope that will be part of the workshop at a later point.

The closest thing to a triangle for me this month, so far, I suppose is when my h moved out/ran off and lived somewhere else for five days. It crossed my mind to contact the person he was staying with to alert her to his instability issues and see if she could help but I did not act on it. I did not do it precisely to avoid more unanticipated drama in the situation. My husband contacted pretty much everyone he knows. They offered to find him a new wife, oh geez, within 24 hours of him running out the door. I think that's pretty crazy, but I let it go. That's just what they do - their drama not mine. I only hear bits and pieces of it later. After he was back he was saying it was all craziness his part, or PTSD, or what have you. I told him it's fine to have breaks, but the drama is not necessary. I try to avoid drama whenever possible by being slow and deliberate in my thinking and behavior. I try to depersonalize, and treat it as an illness, but I'm tired of his breakup drama stuff. He says he'll "never do it again" but I know that is just his wishful thinking. He (poorly) copes with stress by throwing me overboard and then regrets it. Deep down he fears I will hate him/stop loving him because of it, but he keeps doing it. 
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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2017, 02:36:48 AM »

I have been confiding in a couple of friends about the issues I am having with 'ex' partner, but more enlightening them on his beheaviour and explaining BPD patterns and getting feedback on what is or is not normal behaviour in their eyes.  I suppose to give me validation on what I am dealing with.  Also on these boards and hearing from other Nons and their experiences helps me to further clarify that I am right about his behaviour not being normal.

He has, I think, triangulated me with another woman who he has announced he is in a relationship with on Facebook.  Despite this, I think I am painted white each time he is with me, as he keeps coming onto me, and is on board with us, when he is with me.  When he is away, I get text messages telling me that he has to stay away, and that it isnt fair on me and he has to stop hurting me.  Gave me the reason that mentally he is not ready for a relationship (after 2 1/2 years), and that he needs to be on his own to sort his mental state out.  Also says he is not functioning, but won't go into detail with me.  Also says he wants to do so much with me, and that he is aroused whenever he is with me.  Keeps saying look at the connection we have and that I am wonderful.  Think he is using this other woman to push me away.

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« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2017, 03:13:35 AM »

I asked my therapist to rescue me from having to make a decision to dump a date.  I told him tongue in cheek to make me stop.  He did not participate in that discussion, rather he redirected it to me exploring my own feelings on the matter.

I was angry at how I was being treated on an ongoing work issue.  One lady keeps sabotaging my efforts with her disorganization, then hiding the mess she makes by blaming me. I wrote an email to clarify things and cc’d all involved so we could all have transparency and better communication on the matter.  (And so she could quit ruining my reputation “behind my back.”)

I have a trainer and in a joking kind of way, I often complain he kicks my butt.  So I do somewhat “victimize” myself a bit as I gripe about this at times.  I realize no one who is supportive will be coming to my rescue, yet there is in fact a bit of release of tension by having someone hear my complaint.

I complained about my date to my best friend.  He told me his opinion of the situation and the guy.  I suppose his statements were ones of rescuing.  I’m sure my friend felt protective and I did feel cared for over it.
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« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2017, 01:16:27 PM »

I found myself triangulating this weekend. My H's sister came into town. Just before she arrived my H started in berading me for my faith again. I was hurt and frustrated.

His sister arrived and when my H was out of the house she asked me if he was still going to church with me. I told her no and she explained how she feels the same way my H feels about church. I told her I understand and that I don't push it on him or even bother him about going. I didn't ask her to talk to him.

Later in the day she had a long private conversation with my H about this topic. Later she told me she told him that he needs to just let me practice my faith in whatever way I want to practice it. I just thanked her. But later in the day when his sister was outside with the kids, my H jumped on me. He began to demand me to give an answer as to why I go to church. I was really surprised and hurt. The next time I had a moment alone with his sister I told him what he did and asked her to try to talk to him again about letting me practice my faith.

I realized what I did right away. But I was walking on egg shells, worrying, and feeling sick to my stomach knowing that when she leaves that he is going to go directly to this subject again. It causes me a lot of stress. I wanted her to fix it so that maybe she could talk some sense into him before he said things that were mean and hurtful to me. I hate that I did this, but as far as I can tell, it worked. Then again, she left this morning and we haven't been at home together alone yet.

Conflict has been pretty low lately. This is the only time that I can think of.
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« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2017, 09:03:27 PM »

Good question... .     

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God (my higher power)
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2017, 06:40:50 PM »

I hadn't heard of the term triangulation until coming to this forum, so bear with me still learning about it here.
I think I end up placing myself in the victim role in conflict, although I do not actually think I am victimized or really blame other people--I am just really passive and do not have great assertiveness skills. I think I don't want to hurt others, but am seeing how I kind of do end up doing just that by not being more assertive/honest. I end up getting kind of irritated with people and seek to let it go/strive to not let it bother me, meanwhile minimizing my own needs and building up negative feelings.
The only person I really share things with is my therapist, and I guess in the context of being a victim, I do rely on her to help me feel better. The only conflicts I really have lately are at work, maybe with one coworker and a few customers, besides getting annoyed at strangers/motorists sometimes.
I think I will probably continue to be a person who avoids conflict in many ways, but I would like to get better at being assertive and honoring my needs. I think it often creates worse problems for me to sacrifice them, namely resentment. I guess that's all I have to share for now, but I look forward to participating in this workshop and think I will get a lot out of it to help me accept responsibility and make changes in some of these situations.
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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2017, 08:43:34 PM »

I think triangulation is where there is a 3 party relationship - so I can not count interactions here (as that is 2 way between BPD Boards and me). I would be reluctant to count interactions with MC as she is employed to work in our best interest and really should not take sides (this does not mean the hwBPD does not feel like the "outsider" sometimes).

I tend to triangulate with my daughter (his step-dau) who is 16 and I believe this may not be best for her own mental health. This may be a full-on rant from me about how hard I find to take hwBPD's behaviour sometimes - or may just a minor discussion about how her step-dad is doing for the day. She lives with us 50% along with her brother and 2 step-brothers. Unfortunately I am doing this nearly daily and I can see the affect on their relationship. I am beginning to think I need to change this.

The other people I turn to for support (not triangulation) do not have much to do with my husband so there is no shift in their relationship. Very rarely I will talk with my mother (in her 70's now) but I try not to so she doesn't worry Smiling (click to insert in post) That may very slightly affect their relationship as she takes my side.

It is definitely an interesting concept and a helpful way to look at interactions for all those involved. I do think maybe we need clarification between triangulation and seeking support in a 2 way relationship.



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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2017, 08:35:38 AM »

It is definitely an interesting concept and a helpful way to look at interactions for all those involved. I do think maybe we need clarification between triangulation and seeking support in a 2 way relationship.

Great question and it gets at what this first lesson is about - these are the same.

Triagulation is a result of tension between two people, and one or both reach out to another to help in solving that tension because they are unwilling or unable to solve it themselves.

Here is the point of this first lesson. We seek outsiders because we are unable or unwilling to solve our tension with our partner.

Unable.

OK. This can be a reality for us or the other party.

Unwilling.

 Thought  Uh-oh. What is this all about? One person doesn't want to resolve the conflict, they want to win. That can't be good.

So... .

1. Triagulation is normal.
2. Why we seek it (our motivations) speaks volumes.
3. And who we pick  speaks volumes.
4. Understanding why someone else is triangulating is really important.
5. How we react to being triangulated, is critical.
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2017, 09:49:31 AM »


It is definitely an interesting concept and a helpful way to look at interactions for all those involved. I do think maybe we need clarification between triangulation and seeking support in a 2 way relationship.


I think like Skip said motivation is a key factor. If we want/hope/expect the other person to jump in and rescue us or only take our side then it is negative. If we are seeking advice and are open to correction for our own role then it is positive.
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« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2017, 11:41:41 AM »

Triangulation in a relationship with a pwBPD can be disappointing. We expect the behaviours to be visible and obvious to other people and therefore as you say, to be on our side or even to understand the situation and be able to come up with solutions. Triangulation only works when all 3 parties share the same reality, share the same facts and it's only the interpretation of those facts and reality which needs mediating. Couples counselling for example is notoriously disastrous in a BPD relationship because each person has their own facts (one based on emotions, and one based on actual events) let alone their interpretation of those facts into a reality. The resulting effect is the counselor becomes increasingly confused and has to pick which person (generally the one with the strongest emotions) is telling the truth or has the most realistic sense of reality. In my case it was my uBPDw who was more believable because she was hurt more by the experiences in our marriage. I was frustrated that the counselor seemed to be taking sides where she addressed the very real emotional intensity of my wife's pain as a fact, whilst not understanding that the basis for the emotional intensity was fictitious and there was little or nothing I could have done in the relationship to have prevented her pain.

Sorry if that sounds confusing.
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2017, 11:54:19 AM »

Thinking that a lot of this comes down to... .
Am I seeking a third party to gain understanding/problem solve?
Or am I seeking a thrid party to “feel ok” with myself? (emotionally regulate via getting supplied external validation to compensate for lack of self worth or such.)

If I am using others to “feel ok” then my pragmatic abilities for conflict resolution may not be evolving.  I may find that I continue to encounter the same difficulties as life may continue to present the same types of challenges.  Yet, maybe my approach, perspective could use some sharpening?
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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2017, 12:30:34 PM »

Couples counselling for example is notoriously disastrous in a BPD relationship because each person has their own facts (one based on emotions, and one based on actual events) let alone their interpretation of those facts into a reality.

In his series, we want to learn to dismantel drama in our lives - and it really requires a look at who we are as that is all we control.

In that sense, a perspective that marriage conflict with a person with BPD traits is disaterous because one party is founded in relality and another in emotional fantasy might be counter productive. I know in ready here, that many of our members are just as destructive in couselling because they see it as a place to have a therapist help them tell their partner that the partner is at fault.

I'm not minimizing the difficulty of therapy, you are right about that. I am just saying that if we view it as "reality vs fantasy", we are leading the way into bad triagulation and drama.

We create drama in these relationships, too.
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2017, 02:45:36 PM »

i saw somebody around here once make the point that the "need to be right" is what often fuels these conflicts. that helped it click for me. do i want to reach resolution, or make a point, change someone else, "win".

if anything, learning about the karpman drama triangle, at first, made me a bit hypervigilant about triangulation in general. i was more or less of the opinion that grown ups handle their conflict without leaning on someone else.

except, as has been said, sometimes the reality is that that may not be possible. i also believe that strong people know when and how to ask for help.

i do have friends that come to me for support and advice. sometimes i need support and advice. sometimes i need to vent. sometimes i want a different perspective on how to handle conflict. all of these can be examples of 'good' triangulation, or they can be examples of 'bad' triangulation.

in terms of a list, i dont have significant conflict or drama going on in my life right now, so these might seem like small examples.

i have a particular friend who is going through a breakup (and really has been on and off for a couple of years). she can lean on me a bit heavily at times which ive had to be assertive about and keep some limits on. recently, i like to think i helped her to understand that aimless venting can be dysfunctional. its rare, but i have seen a number of people become visibly even more worked up as a result, and that was true in her case. she also has a tendency to overshare with others. ive never met her boyfriend/ex, and while ive gotten a pretty good picture of the conflict, i have to keep that in perspective.

i do that here, too. when someone shares their conflict with me, i try not to necessarily be skeptical or doubtful of their words, but neither do i take everything at face value. im mindful that "i dont know what i dont know", and i ask questions. i listen with empathy to what they are communicating, and try to help them solve the conflict in a mature way that has the greatest likelihood of "success" or at least limiting the drama.

both of those things have occurred this month.

i moderate a small group of some 100 people, only about half of which are active participants. its a political group though, so things can go crazy, and i have a really low tolerance for badgering. i have a member who makes people feel bullied in his style and approach. really aggressive, likes to dictate the terms of the debate, harps incessantly on semantics. he got really obnoxious with another member who was understandably sarcastic with him.

at first i called him out publicly. bad move. made him feel singled out. took sides. at first he kept trying to bait me. i was pretty good at eluding that and speaking generally but he kept pushing, so i opened up a private dialogue with him. he was naturally quite defensive. no matter how i responded he would "reject my assessment" and bring it back to what i and others were doing wrong. i told him i was asking if he could disagree while being less disagreeable. he told me "honestly not really" because he didnt agree and because of... .everyone else. he told me he would continue to post as he had because he "knew" he had not broken any rules 

my thought was to end the conversation and give him two options. we could part ways. or he could remain a member, not post, and if he changed his mind we could revisit the conversation. i also thought about empathizing a bit that i understand he felt singled out, that maybe i hadnt handled it in the best of ways, and that he also had no way of knowing how ive handled the other members. kinda SET.

i bounced both ideas off on someone else. they suggested that i let him have his last word, stop responding, and do absolutely nothing. their point was that i had warned him, and that that probably wasnt lost on him. that hed likely stop posting on his own, and be more mindful the next time that he does, if he does.

i really liked that idea, and thats what i did.

good triangulation, to me, is seeking a perspective and/or advice from a skilled person whom i trust. not to get validation for my side of the conflict, but ways to limit or end the drama, and, ideally, let everyone "win".
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2017, 03:08:44 PM »

I guess I should have been more clear, when I went to couples counselling I had no idea at all about BPD and it wasn't for 4m afterwards that I stumbled upon what I now believe to be what my wife suffers from. I suffer from many things, one of which is the monkey and the banana. I haven't been able to see death staring me in. The face for want of holding onto the banana.

I too like to triangulate with people who actively challenge my way of thinking. I am fortunate to have a boss who's been through a lot of anger management classes and given I spend 12hrs a day with him he's been brutally helpful in helping me tackle a lot of my cognitive bugs. Although I thought I was good at executive thinking, and I am from a business and home management perspective, I'm terrible at being outcome orientated when it comes to my intimate relationships. It's been very hard to accept that going backwards is actually progress but sometimes it is. The concept of what is "right", "fair" is really irrelevant when outcome orientated. I asked my therapist to challenge me last night and he said "what do you want me to challlenge you on"... .maybe that was the challenge!
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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2017, 09:38:06 AM »

I need to speak to others (my therapist and close friends) as this is my support network. As much as I don't like talking about my SO's problems (which he does not acknowledge himself), before talking to my therapist I sincerely started thinking that I was in the wrong myself. It made me very much doubt my own principles, standards and what I stand for. Talking to others is helpful and reassuring in order to strengthen my own resolve.
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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2017, 10:58:43 AM »

The more I learn the more I can look back and see when I have had healthy triangulations and when I have not.  I am certainly doing a better job now not triangulating to seek comfort and validation because I was unwilling to resolve.  Sometimes it is hard though.  A few of the folks I have had "unhealthy" triangulation with often check in on me because I think in their hearts they are doing the right thing by letting me vent.  Sometimes I feel like I start out trying to describe situations to get an outside perspective to move me from unable to able and willing but quickly fall back into a bit of victim status and b--ching about my situation (now able and unwilling).

I would like to ask the group about their thoughts on triangulation with children.  Is it even triangulation or is it just Dad trying to help his kids understand what is going on in their lives?

This is how it is in my house:
D16 is very intelligent, kind, empathetic and has unfortunately been accosted by her mother enough to know that mom is "different" somehow with her emotions.  I feel like we both pull each other into the triangle on occasion.  Being that its my child I am very aware of keeping it healthy and trying to offer suggestions and understanding about the situation we find ourselves in.  I won't say its been 100% though, I know there have been a few times both D16 and I have taken it to give each other strength to be "unwilling" to resolve.  Again I'm not sure if I'm triangulating or just trying to offer coping skills, suggestions or even start the topic of boundaries.

D10 is where the difficulty lays.  She is sweet and so loving and has told us she fears us getting a divorce.  She is not intellectually mature enough to understand some of these dynamics and has lately started to yell back at her mother when uBPDw starts to attack me. While internally its validating that even your 10 year old can see that something is not right, I don't want her pulled into this and especially into a persecutor role.

Thanks everyone, this is a great topic.  The more I know and am self-aware of my behavior the more control I feel like I'm bringing back into my life.

-Oz
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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2017, 11:25:55 AM »

Good posts!
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« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2017, 06:33:41 AM »

I definitely triangulate.

Periodically my pwBPD emails thoughts that I have to work through. I can't do it with him, so I do it with my therapist, with local friends, or online.

He does it with his siblings. I used to be more in contact with his siblings because most of them are somewhat sympathetic, but it got uncomfortable when I realized how much he was doing that. He even got into detailed bedroom information with them that I wasn't happy that he shared. I decided that I'd keep my distance there.

I do see that sometimes there's too much triangulation. If I posted all day, I wouldn't get anything done! And sometimes you just have to deal with it. Posting isn't going to really help in some cases. Venting is OK, but if you just do that, it's going to poison you. You have to work through things some too.
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