Cautious Optimism: Where do we go from here?

[walkinthepark247]

As some of you have seen, I have had some EXTREMELY rocky days in the past few weeks. This post is firmly in the “Improving” section (cautiously). There was divorce talk and wild accusations for the last two weeks (from her). To be blunter, my wife was dysregulating horribly. The paranoia was out of control. I had a secret girlfriend (not true) and she was “afraid for her life”; she was convinced that  piece of junkmail meant I was going to leave her and “steal the kids”.  There was a constant push/pull “I cannot live another minute with you!” “Don’t leave me!” “See, I took my wedding ring off” “You have never really loved me” “I knew that you were going to leave me”

My mind just kinda shut down during this period. I couldn’t say or do anything right. I was the walking dead. I just went silent and tried to avoid her altogether. I finally admitted to her that I had talked to an attorney. Keep in mind that I have never once uttered divorce before. It’s been a constant barrage of divorce threats from her for YEARS starting from the earliest days in our marriage. She first told me she was going to divorce me in the first month of our marriage. There was no infidelity or big fight.

My wife is still undiagnosed, and I readily admit that I am not a medical professional. But, in the last two days, we have had some extremely deep conversations. She has admitted to me that she struggles with rage; is extremely pessimistic/negative; has always had a low self-esteem; struggles with a low self-image and depression; she fears abandonment; the abandonment of her father scarred her.

The question is, where do we go from here? She has now said that she is even willing to see a clinical psychologist (yet to be named) with me. I’ve tried to make it all about “I admit that I have things I need to work on as well and I think a trained professional could help”. As I’ve noted in other posts, we saw some counselors who were clearly unqualified for the situation.

My wife had repeatedly said, you have hurt me so much by calling an attorney. I think I may have finally gotten through to her a bit that her repeated “I’m filing for divorce tomorrow!” for several years has taken its toll on my soul. You feel bad about this one instance? You were threatening me and said you were going to leave the state with the kids.

I do love my wife and I am hopeful. But, I just want to make the right moves. I cannot tiptoe around the mental health issues any longer. I refuse to and cannot live like that any longer.

I know that all the literature (that I’m aware of) says not to mention BPD myself. But, how do we get to a situation where there is a true assessment? She has agreed to see a psychologist with me (as a couple); not alone.

My last counselor spoke to my wife’s counselor. He flat out told me that “there is absolutely no hope for people with BPD; none whatsoever; lost cause”. I’ve never uttered this to my wife. I do not say this to be negative here. I’m just still struggling with it.

I’m also cautious because I’ve seen others on this board have similar conversations and then have them blow up in their faces later. But, this is the most real my wife has been with me in a couple of years. It’s also the most eye contact she’s made with me in months.

Any advice?

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[barnowl]

Sadly, I don't have any advice to share, just wanted to note that much of your story here echoes what I've been going through the past couple of weeks, and like you I don't know whether being hopeful about things is being unrealistic. I only just realized how badly I'd been abused by my wife's BPD episodes a week ago, and how badly I'd been mishandling them. Now that I'm ready to try a new approach to it all, her "dysregulation" seems to have subsided, leaving me anxious that I will fall back into old, weak habits. Interestingly, what seems to have broke the logjam was my visit to a divorce attorney (a few days after she, after many threats, visited one) who pointed out the obvious abuse to me. I think my wife maybe saw that my eyes had suddenly been opened that I was the one who should be seeking divorce, not her, and changed her tune. Idle, and probably incorrect, speculation. I'm still seeing hope wherever I can find it. I don't want to give up, but I don't want these episodes to damage us either. Good luck to you; I hope we can both "beat the odds" here.

[walkinthepark247]

barnowl (and anyone else who wants to listen),

The last few days have been an extreme roller coaster since I wrote the above post.

My wife has repeatedly said that she wants to do everything necessary to save the marriage. At the same time, she has switched between extreme anger and silent treatment. There were a couple of moments when I felt like we were finally connecting again. I am now on day 3 of the silent treatment.

My wife found that I was reading the “eggshells” book. We share a kindle device and she saw it there. She demanded to know why. I also got the "you're the one with a personality disorder" (described in the book). As I said before, I don’t know how to steer this conversation and I am open to suggestions. The cat is out of the bag. She demanded to know why I was “trying to diagnose” her. I explained that I wasn’t, but that the book has been very helpful for me. I tried to keep it on "this is about me improving the relationship". I also pointed out that two of my therapists have suggested the "eggshells" book. That didn't go over well. This lead to more “you really want a divorce”. In the moment, I explained that there are plenty of books and literature on divorce and BPD divorce. I intentionally chose a book that spoke about strengthening the relationship.

Right now, I am pretty darn certain that the silent treatment has nothing to do with me. Rather, she is just entering another phase of self-loathing. But, I cannot truly know since she won’t articulate it to me. She cannot make eye contact with me. It's very awkward. I can even see her eyes dart around frantically if I land in her field of vision.

Another facet of the above has been that her mother called my mother out of the blue to basically tell my mother what a horrible bum I am. Keep in mind that we are in our mid-to-late 30s. Her mother is extremely manipulative. Some of the things she said to my mother about me were outright lies. She's made the same accusations against others. To top it off, her mother (who has failed at every relationship she's ever been in) is telling my mother and my wife that I am the root of all the problems. 

I am really trying to walk so carefully here. She states that she is open to seeing a professional with me. I have also tried to suggest that we both have things we need to work on. As explained in the "eggshells" book and my previous post, we have had therapists make the situation worse.

[barnowl]

It's good to hear your follow-up, walkinthepark247, I know it's been (and still is) difficult but after re-reading it several times it sounds to me like you are handling it quite well. (Mind you, I'm no expert here myself.) But you did seem to stand up for yourself and not tolerate "abuse", while still reassuring her that you are not going to abandon her. And you're not blaming yourself for her dysregulated mental state.

I know exactly the dance around the "I think you have a personality disorder" thing, including it getting hurled right back at you at the merest hint. I'm reading the eggshells book as well; I'm not sure if my wife has seen that on my device or knows it but I've told her that I'm no longer going to "walk on eggshells" constantly around her.

The stuff with her mother is crazy and awful and basically constitutes her mother abusing and trying to manipulate your mother and your wife. I shouldn't have to say that that should not be tolerated; but I'm at a loss as to how exactly it should be addressed. In any case because it doesn't involve you directly there is probably only so much you can do about that.

My wife's mother definitely has some of the same personality tendencies as my wife, but somewhat strangely went a different way with her interference: when my wife was complaining about me being a loser now when I wasn't when she married me, her mother told her that it must have been something she did to me to turn me into a loser! Understandably, my wife was apoplectic about that... .but in hindsight my mother-in-law may have been the first to point out something rather profound that my counselor and the divorce attorney pointed out later.

I share your concern about therapists potentially making the situation worse. The first one we went to (and one my wife still goes to on occasion) I think has got things very wrong. In our last joint session she teamed up with my wife to try to manipulate me in a very obvious manner. My description of it to my therapist made him cringe and say he thought something unethical might be going on. In any case, make sure if you go to a couples therapist that they only see the both of you TOGETHER, and not individually. It is too easy for the therapist to develop a conflict otherwise.

The good news is that you BOTH want to save the marriage... .in my case, my wife is the one repeatedly saying she is not ready to commit to saving it, and expending much of her energy trying to get me to move out and generally spearhead a divorce, presumably so that when it's complete she can absolve herself of any blame and wallow in abandonment.

What's interesting for me is that since my last post here as well we went through another major episode that was triggered when my wife found out I went to a divorce attorney (even though I told her I was, offered to cancel if she was sincere enough about working toward reconciliation which she declined, and so I followed through). She spent two full days in a complete break, right over Thanksgiving with my family (fun times) and we finally got out of it when we talked through the abandonment issue at the heart of it. Despite her pleas for me to leave her, when I actually took one step (that I desperately did not want to take!) indicating my willingness to do that, she completely freaked out. Very interesting, as they say.

Well I guess I'm just hoping that my stream-of-consciousness tale here gives you some comfort; it really does sound to me like you are handling things very well, standing up for yourself, reassuring her, committed to making things work. I really hope things start to improve for you. I often go into my therapist complaining that whatever cockamamie strategy he had me try backfired (in terms of my wife being more angry, not less) and then he proceeds to find ways in which things improved for me (primarily I didn't get as trampled as I might have) so perhaps if you adjust your perspective you'll be able see that there are some good things starting to emerge from all the anger and silent treatment.

Good luck and keep us (er, probably just me) posted!

[RolandOfEld]

Hi walkinthepark247, I wish I had advice to offer as well but like many of us I can only give corresponding experience. My wife was the one who identified her BPD and even once said "Exercise helps my BPD". She had one self-initiated visit with a counselor. As I started setting boundaries she had a huge extinction burst that involved her going into my email (she found some evidence of highly dysregulated conversations she'd had with me that I'd gathered in a dark moment), a faked suicide attempt, threats to cut herself, and finally saying she would see a doctor. Since then, she has improved in a general way - stopped abusing alcohol, taking better care of kids, back on track for finding a job next year- but the BPD is still there and she has completely stopped acknowledging it. She referred once to "her issues", but right now I see no explicit action on her part to seek help.

So I'd say we're in stasis. We're able to maintain mostly good interactions when she's not dysregulating, but no romance or physical intimacy. I can't move beyond that right now. I'm too afraid of what could suddenly come out of her. It's a physical reaction as much as en emotional one, like the Pavlovian dogs. I want a real marriage with affection and trust and intimacy but I feel these things aren't possible until she takes care of her problem. For now, keeping a reasonably stable home for the kids has to be enough. That's why I'm working on getting myself well (serious co-dependency issues) first. Like you I don't dare mention the word BPD or push her to get help.

For the record, most of the literature I've read is very optimistic for curing BPD with treatment. So I don't know why your counselor would give you such a pessimistic prognosis.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi walkinthepark247, I wish I had advice to offer as well but like many of us I can only give corresponding experience. My wife was the one who identified her BPD and even once said "Exercise helps my BPD". She had one self-initiated visit with a counselor. As I started setting boundaries she had a huge extinction burst that involved her going into my email (she found some evidence of highly dysregulated online conversations she'd had with me that I'd gathered in a dark moment), a faked suicide attempt, threats to cut herself, and finally saying she would see a doctor. Since then, she has improved in a general way - stopped abusing alcohol, taking better care of kids, back on track for finding a job next year- but the BPD is still there and she has completely stopped acknowledging it. She referred once to "her issues", but right now I see no explicit action on her part to seek help.

So I'd say we're in stasis. We're able to maintain mostly good interactions when she's not dysregulating, but no romance or physical intimacy. I can't move beyond that right now. I'm too afraid of what could suddenly come out of her. It's a physical reaction as much as en emotional one, like the Pavlovian dogs. I want a real marriage with affection and trust and intimacy but I feel these things aren't possible until she takes care of her problem. For now, keeping a reasonably stable home for the kids has to be enough. That's why I'm working on getting myself well (serious co-dependency issues) first. Like you I don't dare mention the word BPD or push her to get help.

For the record, most of the literature I've read is very optimistic for curing BPD with treatment. So I don't know why your counselor would give you such a pessimistic prognosis.

[pearlsw]

My wife had repeatedly said, you have hurt me so much by calling an attorney. I think I may have finally gotten through to her a bit that her repeated “I’m filing for divorce tomorrow!” for several years has taken its toll on my soul. You feel bad about this one instance? You were threatening me and said you were going to leave the state with the kids.

I do love my wife and I am hopeful. But, I just want to make the right moves. I cannot tiptoe around the mental health issues any longer. I refuse to and cannot live like that any longer.

I know that all the literature (that I’m aware of) says not to mention BPD myself. But, how do we get to a situation where there is a true assessment? She has agreed to see a psychologist with me (as a couple); not alone.

My last counselor spoke to my wife’s counselor. He flat out told me that “there is absolutely no hope for people with BPD; none whatsoever; lost cause”. I’ve never uttered this to my wife. I do not say this to be negative here. I’m just still struggling with it.

I’m also cautious because I’ve seen others on this board have similar conversations and then have them blow up in their faces later. But, this is the most real my wife has been with me in a couple of years. It’s also the most eye contact she’s made with me in months.

Any advice?

Hi walkinthepark247,

Oh yes, I've certainly noticed you around here! Thanks for always being so supportive of folks. Glad to have the chance to offer some support and kindness in return!

Your description of finally having to break down and contact a lawyer really hit home with me. Our partners can make a hundred break up threats and you finally go, "Well, okay, I guess I have to get ready" and then oh gosh, you think one potential break up hurts? How about a hundred of them? It is NOT easy! I'm just glad I finally know this is a "thing"!

It sounds like you two could be entering an interesting and very hopeful phase though... .A phase where she is able to recognize at least some of the problem here. My partner did that recently too and I am hopeful we will get to that - some outside assistance. He has some physical pain issues that must come first though.

You know, it's interesting... .I know the general advice is not to disclose, but in my case we (my h and I) talked about it before I had heard that advice. I got it thrown back at me a couple times and it was not easy, but somehow I managed to hold onto the idea firmly enough that I didn't have to totally abandon logic and reality and openness - at least on this point. He does have some self-awareness and a lot of shame and embarrassment for his behaviors though so maybe he was more able to... .well, I have to be careful with his sensitivities and never over do it. We talk about it, but I have learned to be much more gentle and brief about things that I see cause him a lot of pain to discuss.

I'd say personally, and I'm not professional, but if you are having deep talks and you feel like there is an opening then it's up to you to experiment and step a toe in and see what happens. It's a risk, but... .well, we all know what tough times are so... .do what you need to do. Maybe you could ease into by asking if she feels not quite herself at times? How does she feel when she is so angry? Does she feel like things could be less heightened?  

I have to admit, me having PMS at times has given me a LOT of sympathy for when I see my h dysregulate. I have never been like that, but I can relate to feeling like my brain gets foggy and I hear more negative thoughts in my head than at other times. I've learned to manage it and wait it out. I tell him things that show I can relate to him and these are just things that our bodies do, but it is our responsibility to try to make things better. But again, my h is high functioning and very attached to me, and looks up to me in a way. There is never one size fits all advice.

This "lost cause" advice is... .well, there may be pretty tough cases with this just like there are with alcohol, but there is a lot to try too, if you are up for it. It is definitely okay to walk away, but it also okay to have hope and see what might be possible.  Are you looking to find a counselor who specifically uses DBT?

wishing you some peace and hope as these changes develop!

[Enabler]

A friends wife whom I recently found out suffers from BPD (how did I not tell knowing her for 17yrs!) said to me when I mentioned that I'd told my wife that I thought she suffered from BPD... .

"You have sown the seed, now let it grow"

Much of her moods could be as a result of the negative emotions from self loathing, rumination and the internal battle in their heads... .all they will want to do is project this onto someone else... .YOU.

[walkinthepark247]

This "lost cause" advice is... .well, there may be pretty tough cases with this just like there are with alcohol, but there is a lot to try too, if you are up for it.

Thanks for all the kind words. I decided to spend a couple of days away from the boards. Have you people ever heard of the Japanese practice (medicine?) of Shinrin-yoku? I highly recommend it! www.shinrin-yoku.org/shinrin-yoku.html

The window of opportunity seems to have been shut in my face. I am now once again getting the "You have the problems, I'm ok" responses. ST as well for good measure.

I have finally found a very good therapist that is extremely helpful to me. My last therapist was doom and gloom each and every session. With this new therapist, there is some role-playing and conversations about how to best maneuver through the FOG. After speaking with a friend who is a psychologist many states away, she recommended I see someone with a LMFT designation. I don't know if our overseas friends have a similar designation. That has made a world of difference for me.

I continue to have periodic glimmers of hope. I know that I haven't tried my best to learn my own coping mechanisms. The constant divorce threats, yelling and generally bizarre/anti-social behavior had left me very bitter. That is what I am working on in therapy now. It also helps a great deal to try to remember that these feelings existed in my wife long before I was in the picture.

My therapist has also encouraged me to stop focusing on getting a diagnosis for my wife. I know I had become consumed with that. As I said to my wife when she discovered my BPD book stash on my reading device, the books simply speak to me and our situation.

She has now said that she intends to "prove" me wrong in "your [my] diagnosis". She states that she has made an appointment with a psychologist to prove me wrong. Her intent is to spike the ball once she gets her anticipated all-clear. And, I realize that she may very well get an all-clear. She is high functioning and I am the only adult who truly sees the extent of her behavior.

Once again, the books were found inadvertently. I have not uttered BPD. Rather, I have expressed concern over poor self-image, rage, anger, and violence. Things she was willing to admit a couple of weeks ago when I originally wrote this post.

I also cannot steer whether or where my wife seeks counsel. I still have concerns about the untrained counselor she is currently seeing. But, I must focus on my growth.

[Enabler]

She is high functioning and I am the only adult who truly sees the extent of her behavior.

The masks are so convincing but when that door shuts and no one can see... .

Why can't they treat everyone else badly and us amazingly?

[Radcliff]

Hello walkinthepark247, I am so sorry I've been scarce.  Knock on wood, I think things may have steadied enough on my end that I can start reconnecting with folks here and not disappear again.  The off-board workload and turbulence has been quite heavy!

I wanted to relate a couple of experiences to you.  In the last five weeks, my wife has now seen a DBT therapist 10 times.  This after 28 years of insisting she would never do therapy, it was all my problem, and I had BPD, NPD, bipolar disorder, was a psychopath, and was suicidal.  I never thought therapy would ever be possible for her.  It will be a long road, and there are no guarantees, but if anything is going to work, this is it.  This is the first time I've seen anything attack the actual problem ever.  I've been to see her therapist 1:1 twice.  A little the first time, and especially the second time, I was thinking, "Holy cr*p, this woman understands BPD!"  She is not a feel good therapist who is going to give my wife a clean bill.  Even before the therapist talked to me, she asked my wife to show her texts that my wife sent to me, and is using those as teaching moments.  When I've told the therapist what's been going on, I'm not trying to convince her what life has been like -- she knows -- she is taking the information I'm giving her and using it as teaching examples for how my wife can apply DBT skills.  (Caveat here -- my hope is to feed her some information up front and then get out of the way, as this is my wife's thing and I have my own work to do.)  While my wife admits to being very uncomfortable with the hard questions the therapist asks, she is energized and very optimistic about their work.  The therapist is able to work through my wife's ineffective interactions with me and show her how to use different tools, and my wife is excited by this.  When she thought of therapy, she was thinking of talk therapy that can go nowhere (and there is probably a lot of that out there).  The skills-based DBT approach is very different from that.

Don't get discouraged by your wife's latest shutting of the door.  Play the long game.  Be ready for the next opportunity.  My suggestion would be to research DBT therapists in your area and find the therapist you think would be the best fit.  Talk to them and explain your situation.  See if they have space for new clients, and ask for their recommendation about how to get started (tell them about the window of opportunity that opened up and what your wife said).  One possibility would be for you to go with the therapist to see her together, then eventually drop off and let that therapist be hers 1:1.  An important question is whether your wife wants you there so she can dump things on you, or if she wants you there to make her feel safe (uh, OK, I know it's probably both   I would *not* get stuck in couples counseling with her with someone not trained in DBT.  You seem to be ready to get serious about this, and I'd say go for a DBT therapist or bust.  Nobody else is rated to handle what you're bringing.

To better understand what was going on in DBT (my wife is doing group skills sessions as well as 1:1), I ordered the DBT Skills Training Handouts and Worksheets book online for $26.  I really didn't know much about DBT, and still am very early in my understanding.  But I was really impressed by that book.  There is *so* much material in there, all skills based.  The program is *entirely* geared towards working with pwBPD.  It is very validating, avoids shame, gives a sense of hope, etc., etc.

What I'm getting at is if there is any way to get a pwBPD to learn a little bit about what is in DBT, especially if they have expressed an interest in getting help to ease their pain, it could help them feel comfortable with the idea of DBT.  This is totally not, "crack your brain open and we'll tell you how messed up you are" therapy as your pwBPD might be afraid of.  DBT is more like taking a class to teach skills that will help them feel better, along with some 1:1 coaching to help them apply those skills to their life.  There need be no discussion of BPD, nor do you really even need to call it therapy.  It is DBT Skills Training.

What's the right way to introduce it?  I don't know.  Obviously, if you pick the wrong way or the wrong time, it won't go well!  Maybe showing them the workbook.  Maybe an informational session with a DBT therapist.  Maybe there are Web resources or YouTube videos that introduce it.  But finding your local therapist who's your desired destination and getting their suggestions might be a good place to start.

Sorry, it's late, and I'm rambling, but I hope this is helpful.  Last thought is that would be great to familiarize yourself with the high-level content of DBT.  For example, there are four modules -- Mindfulness, Emotional Regulation, Distress Tolerance, and Interpersonal Effectiveness.  If you read about them, you'll be saying, "We need to get us some of that!" and you'll be in a better position to artfully sell it to her at some point (or points -- there is a lot to be said for the idea mentioned by Enabler of sowing the seed and letting it grow).

walkinthepark247, I felt pretty optimistic when you described the window your wife opened up.  My wife never opened a window that wide.  Play the long game.  Get ready.  I believe you have a shot at this.

Best,

WW  

[Radcliff]

walkinthepark247, it's been a while.  Let us know how things are going with you!

WW

[walkinthepark247]

WW, I’ve been lurking around. Thanks for checking in! I am self-employed and the sole breadwinner. I had really let my business suffer when things were extremely heightened for an extended period. I had to play some serious catch-up.

I also felt that I may have been spending too much time on the board. I needed to focus on my own mental outlook and well-being rather on my wife's issues.
 
As to my original post in this thread, the "cautious optimism" was short-lived. I am starting to learn the “push-pull” dynamics of my (and many here) relationship. Basically (as I see it), my wife made those statements about change, help, etc. merely in a panic because I admitted consulting with an attorney. She’s now backtracked on all those statements now that the threat appears to have subsided. “I’m not the problem; you’re the problem”.

I don’t know whether you saw or not, but she saw my “secret stash” of BPD books. She picked up the eggshells book, read it, and is now accusing that I am BP. She knows many of the empathy statements after having read the book. So, I get “did you learn that in your stupid little book” when I try to use some of the language from the book. 

It’s extremely frustrating and disheartening. There was a period of relative calm that lasted about 12 days. Then, it was back to some intense anger.
I really am learning a great deal. I’ve learned to simply disengage when she begins yelling. I’m also trying to get the hang of mirroring her emotions back to her.

As of this morning, she is once again giving me the silent treatment. It all started because she said she wanted to stay home rather than go on a Christmas trip that we have planned for a couple of months now. Each and every trip we ever take always goes like this. She’s too “sick” to go right now. It’s always that she’s “sick” right before these types of events. I don’t know whether it was the right response or not, but I simply said “well, you could always stay here and I can take the girls”. The girls have been getting excited about this trip for weeks now. That turned into “you don’t want me to come” and “you don’t want to spend Christmas with me”. In the past, I would have taken the bait and tried to reason with her: Of course I want you to come! I don’t know if I handled this right or not. What I do know is that she made a big flourish of telling the girls that I don’t love her and that I wanted to spend Christmas without her. Now, I'm giving her the option of staying home if she wishes. But, she cannot keep doing this backout right at the last moment.

The problem is, if we canceled every trip or event because she felt “sick”, we would never go anywhere or do anything. That’s no life for me or the girls.

The other evening, we were sitting at the table and she made a big presentation of giving me her wedding ring back. This was all in front of our kids. The wedding ring sat on the dining table for several days. I tried not to make a big deal out of it, but it isn’t easy. Eventually, she put the ring back on. Admittedly, that came after I asked her to “calm down” after she was lacing into our 5 year old. I appreciate that “calm down” isn’t the best phrase. I just don’t know how to handle it. Interesting tidbit: my wife was abandoned by her father (ran off with secretary) at the age of 5. Her mother never really stepped up to the plate. So, there seems to be something there. The way she talks to our 5yo sometimes is horrible. She berates her. The 5yo can’t do anything right during these times. I can’t do anything right either, but I am an adult and know that these problems existed long before my wife knew my name. My 5yo obviously cannot get that.

I know this is rather rambling. I have really appreciated the kindness from those on this board. I want you to know that I reread many of your posts over and over. They have helped me a great deal.

[Radcliff]

Walkinthepark247,

I am glad to hear from you, but sorry things are tough.  I too need to take a break because I've had my hands so full the Christmas lights aren't up!  So I will be very brief (not my usual

I have seen all of the things you are seeing.  The trip thing especially.  Every outing is at risk.  Finally I just started announcing that we were going and gently repeating my plans.  I would keep calmly telling my wife I was hoping she would come.  Sometimes she would go to great lengths to sabotage.  Others she would end up getting In the car and things would be fine.  Don't let your wife's moods hold you and your girls hostage.  If you do you will be setting a powerful example they may follow.

Yup, the ring thing.  If I had a nickel for every time she did that I'd be a rich man.  I just let the ring lie were it is until she picks it up, sometimes for days.  A couple of times she has had trouble finding it and asked me anxiously if I knew where it was.  I'm not a jerk about it but I say I just left it there.  No tone, no anger.  I leave it on the floor, outside, wherever.  If she loses it that is her issue.  I don't want to give her any reward for such a move.

That behavior in front of your five year old and to her is very concerning.  We should come back to that later.  If abuse is happening a near term strategy is to think of an excuse to separate your wife and daughter subtly.  Ask your wife for help with something.  Take the dog for a walk with your daughter.  It can be tough to pull off, and your wife may be sensitive to you pulling your daughter away.  Find subtle ways to make your daughter feel your support.  She must know you have your back.  The abuse books talk about building resilience and critical thinking in children so they trust themselves to figure out what is right and wrong.

Stay strong, and keep in touch,

WW