Trying to stay optimistic, but my marriage is most certainly failing

[Depression = 72% of members]

Things are really not going well right now in my marriage. I'm very stressed and overwhelmed by all of it, and so it makes it even harder to see things clearly.

To recap, over the past several years, I feel like I've been running non-stop trying to keep up with my wife's demands. There are two particular demands that present quite a bit of trouble for me. The first is a demand that I sever all contact with my extended family of origin (mother, father, two brothers). The second demand is that I make more money and stop trying to "live cheap," basically making sure that I provide a "nice life" with high-end vacations, jewelry, nice dinners out, etc.

Underlying these demands, of course, is the belief that I don't really care about my wife, that I've never really loved her, and that these things would indicate otherwise. There are, of course, other things that would indicate that I do or do not love her and care about her, and those are the more intangible demands that underly the bigger outward demands. For example, because I did not rescue her from a difficult situation, I must not care about her. Real clear Karpman Drama Triangle stuff.

After years and years of trying to meet these demands, I'm faced with a crippling amount of stress, depression, and guilt. At first it was guilt over not meeting the demands, and some of that it still a factor. But now it's the guilt of doing what i've done to my family of origin, and also the horrible mess I've made of my financial life. I've worked hard for many years in a high paying job, and all I've got right now to show for it is a small amount of equity in my house and a few thousand dollars in 401k savings.

None of this even begins to talk about the impact on my precious daughter. In her 4 short years on this earth, she's witnessed horrible verbal fights with screaming and shouting, she's been rejected and left on her own way more than any 4 year old should have to be. She's been woken up too many times in the night from screams and shouts in our bedroom. She is such a victim in all of this and, of all the things, THIS is the biggest load of guilt and shame I carry around. What the hell have I done?

So I've said all this because I need to do something very different. We've talked about it here so many times, and so many people have given me such good advice and guidance. However, it seems to be that no matter how many tools I've learned and how many times I've tried to redirect, validate, not JADE, detach from arguments, NONE of this changes my particular course. And I think there's so much damage already in the relationship that it may not be something that can be saved.

My wife seems to have fully identified herself as a horrible abuse victim. She's watching what is happening in the US landscape with sexual harassment and abuse victims, with women being marginalized but are now finding a voice finally, which is awesome and it's about time, but she's turning that idea (wrongfully, I think) back inside our marriage. She attends sessions weekly with a victim advocate / counselor at the local women's shelter. She has clearly solidified her identity as someone who is horribly abused and wants nothing other than to be in the "victim" role. She tells me daily that she's going to either leave me, or have an affair, but in no case will she be staying with me. I say "I would not like that but I support you in whatever you decide." She tells me it's my fault and I need to change immediately. This has been consistent over all 18 years. And so we go around and around in this loop.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I'm just at the end of my rope. I'll keep trying everything I can to change the dynamic, but I'm very concerned that it's not going to get much better. I hope I'm wrong, which is why I say that I'm trying to stay optimistic. But I know I need to make a drastic change first. THAT'S what I'll focus on.

That's my update, folks. Thanks for listening.

~DB

[DaddyBear77]

Things are really not going well right now in my marriage. I'm very stressed and overwhelmed by all of it, and so it makes it even harder to see things clearly.

To recap, over the past several years, I feel like I've been running non-stop trying to keep up with my wife's demands. There are two particular demands that present quite a bit of trouble for me. The first is a demand that I sever all contact with my extended family of origin (mother, father, two brothers). The second demand is that I make more money and stop trying to "live cheap," basically making sure that I provide a "nice life" with high-end vacations, jewelry, nice dinners out, etc.

Underlying these demands, of course, is the belief that I don't really care about my wife, that I've never really loved her, and that these things would indicate otherwise. There are, of course, other things that would indicate that I do or do not love her and care about her, and those are the more intangible demands that underly the bigger outward demands. For example, because I did not rescue her from a difficult situation, I must not care about her. Real clear Karpman Drama Triangle stuff.

After years and years of trying to meet these demands, I'm faced with a crippling amount of stress, depression, and guilt. At first it was guilt over not meeting the demands, and some of that it still a factor. But now it's the guilt of doing what i've done to my family of origin, and also the horrible mess I've made of my financial life. I've worked hard for many years in a high paying job, and all I've got right now to show for it is a small amount of equity in my house and a few thousand dollars in 401k savings.

None of this even begins to talk about the impact on my precious daughter. In her 4 short years on this earth, she's witnessed horrible verbal fights with screaming and shouting, she's been rejected and left on her own way more than any 4 year old should have to be. She's been woken up too many times in the night from screams and shouts in our bedroom. She is such a victim in all of this and, of all the things, THIS is the biggest load of guilt and shame I carry around. What the hell have I done?

So I've said all this because I need to do something very different. We've talked about it here so many times, and so many people have given me such good advice and guidance. However, it seems to be that no matter how many tools I've learned and how many times I've tried to redirect, validate, not JADE, detach from arguments, NONE of this changes my particular course. And I think there's so much damage already in the relationship that it may not be something that can be saved.

My wife seems to have fully identified herself as a horrible abuse victim. She's watching what is happening in the US landscape with sexual harassment and abuse victims, with women being marginalized but are now finding a voice finally, which is awesome and it's about time, but she's turning that idea (wrongfully, I think) back inside our marriage. She attends sessions weekly with a victim advocate / counselor at the local women's shelter. She has clearly solidified her identity as someone who is horribly abused and wants nothing other than to be in the "victim" role. She tells me daily that she's going to either leave me, or have an affair, but in no case will she be staying with me. I say "I would not like that but I support you in whatever you decide." She tells me it's my fault and I need to change immediately. This has been consistent over all 18 years. And so we go around and around in this loop.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I'm just at the end of my rope. I'll keep trying everything I can to change the dynamic, but I'm very concerned that it's not going to get much better. I hope I'm wrong, which is why I say that I'm trying to stay optimistic. But I know I need to make a drastic change first. THAT'S what I'll focus on.

That's my update, folks. Thanks for listening.

~DB

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[teapay]

Like so many so called "victims", it sounds like your W is setting you up to manipulate or take advantage of you post marriage.  Protect and take care of yourself or she will make quick work of you.  One RO or TO and youll be fighting uphill for years.  Seek legal help and document everything, especially dysregulations.  I know it's blunt, but you and your child are at risk here.

[flourdust]

Hi, DB. I'm sorry to hear that things aren't improving.

I have a question about your response to your wife when she starts making extravagant threats/ultimatums (which are something we have all experienced). You say... .

""I would not like that... ."

That's a good response. It doesn't take the bait nor does it validate the invalid.

"... .but I support you in whatever you decide."

Why do you say that?

[Meili]

She has clearly solidified her identity as someone who is horribly abused and wants nothing other than to be in the "victim" role. She tells me daily that she's going to either leave me, or have an affair, but in no case will she be staying with me. I say "I would not like that but I support you in whatever you decide." She tells me it's my fault and I need to change immediately. This has been consistent over all 18 years. And so we go around and around in this loop.

So, why not just step out of the corners of the drama triangle/loop? I know that is easier said than done, and that FOG plays a big part; but, until you decide to stop taking part in it, the drama is going to be there.

What is it that you are afraid of and is keeping you engaging in the drama?

[isilme]

""I would not like that... ."

That's a good response. It doesn't take the bait nor does it validate the invalid.

"... .but I support you in whatever you decide."

Why do you say that?

I might be able to throw in MY answer for this.  I have made similar statements.  My goal is pretty much to say YOU are the one making these choices, not me.  YOU are acting/choosing to harm the r/s, not me.  If YOU decide you want to leave, then there is nothing I can do nor would I want to - by that time, what is there left to chase, to fight for? 

But I also agree, "I support you" is not the best sentiment.  "I will not stop you from leaving/cheating - that is your choice.  I will not help you, either, nor will I stay in a marriage where you feel that is acceptable." may likely be a better part of the phrase. 

[RolandOfEld]

DB hang in there. I'm in the middle of another separation threat maelstrom and I can relate completely. Yesterday my wife disappeared for a whole day, forcing me to take off from work to take care of the little ones. Now she wants to move out on her own tomorrow. She sees no need for her to arrange for the kids since it's all my responsibility. Our S4 often becomes a pawn in her rages to attack me. I broke off touch with my family for a long time, and my grandmother died, probably of a broken heart. I am trying to reconnect with my brother now, but no answer yet. All in the name of her BPD. The pain is excruciating. But I am setting boundaries, including contacting my family, and she is spiralling out of control. But I have to believe it is for the good for everyone, including her.

I have a question for you. If you got in touch with your family and stopping trying to satisfy her financial needs, would she really leave you? After 18 years of threats and no follow through, it doesn't sound likely.

I suggest your focus right now should not be her feelings, JADE SET etc. It should be taking care of yourself and setting boundaries to do so. My wife's response is always very scary at first (stealing my phone, lashing out at children, suddenly disappearing for a day), but I believe the more I say no the less force she has to control me. I think she is starting to truly become aware of her situation.

Hope this helps. People who don't live with BPD sufferers have no idea what a nightmare daily life can be.

[Notwendy]

I suggest your focus right now should not be her feelings, JADE SET etc. It should be taking care of yourself and setting boundaries to do so. My wife's response is always very scary at first (stealing my phone, lashing out at children, suddenly disappearing for a day), but I believe the more I say no the less force she has to control me. I think she is starting to truly become aware of her situation.


I think Roland said this well. Yes, people who don't see this kind of relationship may not understand but observing this between my parents gave me the courage to set boundaries- both with them and in my own marriage. The risk is scary- the other person may threaten or choose to leave, but the alternative- being a constant doormat, giving up aspects of myself ( my boundaries) was a choice I did not want to make. Fortunately the dynamics in my marriage were not as serious as my BPD mother's behavior- but the pattern was similar. The common denominator was my co-dependency- my part in this. I had to change that- and change is scary. I did lose relationships- with people close to my mother, but the issues in my marriage calmed down considerably. ( thankfully) when I stood up for myself.

BPD is a spectrum disorder- and the degree of dysfunction in relationships varies. I think the skills and techniques help in all relationships. I think doing personal work is valuable for the individual and the relationship-  but I think we all have to make choices about our own relationship - is this working, is this a viable relationship- after trying what we can.

Included in our boundaries are "deal breakers" - things we will not compromise on. These are individual boundaries, but for instance one might be if your wife insisted that you commit a crime. This is an imaginary scenario, but I hope this would be an absolute no. Your wife may not like it, but it violates something important to you. This can risk the relationship- your wife can choose to leave and find someone else to do what she wants- but I hope that the decision, even if it would be hard, would be clear- I will not commit a crime.

More realistic "deal breakers" for you could be " I will not cut off contact with my family". Although it isn't illegal to do that, you know it is hurtful to them and violates your core values. To do this, you would need to be able to deal with the reaction, and your wife's choices. It is a tough place to be in but if this is important to you, you will need to stand up for it.

As to the money issue. I think it is OK to have the value " I want a husband to have a work ethic and wish to support a family" but beyond that, much of a person's income is not under his or her control. There is a pay scale for different jobs. There are only so many hours in a day that someone can work.

I think you get to assess the situation here too. Yes, with BPD there are aspects of the relationship that are difficult, but your wife also is her own unique individual- and what does she want in a relationship? If it is to be married to someone who is extremely wealthy, and you are not that person, then perhaps this reality needs to be faced. Maybe this is her deal breaker- and if this is, then you could consider this too.

Beyond BPD, I think everyone has their deal breakers- and we don't need to judge them. Some people want to be married to someone in the same religion- and so if they marry someone of a different religion- and expect that person to change, that may not be a workable situation. If someone wants a rich husband, and marries someone with a fixed salary, and expects that person to be a millionaire, that isn't realistic.

IMHO, working on a relationship doesn't mean ignoring, or denying our deal breakers- our core wishes, what is important to us. It is risky to put them on the line, because then, the other person can make choices about them. I can't say for certain, but like Rolands situation, I don't think it would be an easy decision for your wife who is married to you for 18 years and financially dependent on you to just walk out if you hold to your boundaries- she may threaten, leave for a while, and even look for someone else- as you have feared, but these are her choices- her behavior to decide on- and she is free to choose too.

They are hard choices- to say no, or to give in. Each decision has a cost, and a possible benefit. The choice is really up to you.

[waverider]

One of the problems with trying to appease is that you are dancing to someone else's tune. If that person has BPD then that tune will not be consistent, ergo you will not be consistent.

Without consistency you end up standing for nothing and you loose your identity.

If the proverbial is going to hit the fan anyway it is better if its is about what you stand for rather than your failure to strand for anything.

[toomanydogs]

Hi DB,
  I echo all the sentiments here. I am sorry your marriage is so difficult right (or maybe always has been?).
  I agree with notwendy that there are dealbreakers in any relationship. The committing a crime is a good analogy. What my H asked me to do, even when I first met him, is misrepresent who he was whenever I'd make a hotel reservation. (Don't even ask why I was making the reservation.)
  The lies he was asking me to tell weren't little lies, such as I suffer from such severe claustrophobia I need a large room and can you bill my insurance company. These were lies such as tell the people I am a famous novelist/actor/producer/director so I can get freebies. It was a boundary I couldn't cross just as I couldn't cross cutting off ties with my family of origin--another request he made but indirectly.
  I don't have children with the man--thank God--because disentangling just myself and all that I did, all that I felt has been extremely painful and extremely difficult.
  One of the tools I used to establish and re-establish a boundary is to say and repeat and repeat is saying, "I'm sad that's what you want to do, but I can't prevent that." Or: "I'm sad that's what you want to do, but I can't do that with you."
  I don't know if having a standardized response helped. It helped me not to get sucked into the maelstrom.
  I am on the other side of this, and I'm not telling or advising you what to do. For the record, I would never have left my H because in the end I felt more towards him as if he were my child, and I never saw him (and still don't) as someone who could live safely alone. I couldn't do that to him.
  I am so sorry you're going through this and really sorry you have a child involved. Hard enough to disentangle on your own.
   
TMD
 

[Meili]

How much do you think that Extinction Bursts are coming into play in your relationship?

If they are, how are they playing out?

[DaddyBear77]

Thanks everyone - this really helps. And I need to stay calm and rational because, honestly, that's my only hope of actually making a difference.

First, let me say, my wife HAS left before, back in 2005. She lived on the other side of the country for about 3 years, and she dated several other people. I kept myself fully n the caretaker role, though, and for the most part, I lived as though I was still married to her. We reconciled in 2008, and the dynamic we live under now was fully established at that point.

So I have no doubt that this time she's serious and that she'll take some sort of similar action.

But, that's the last I'm going to focus on my wife's actions.

Notwendy's discussion on deal breakers is very relevant. My wife has stated her deal breakers over and over again, and instead of saying "well, that's just not something I'm willing to do," I've always said "Ok, no problem. I'll do whatever you want me to do."

That has been a horrible mistake and it's the focus of what I need to correct here.

First of all, I have completely given up my own identity. I have lost all self esteem and now I find myself completely dependent on her approval for any sort of feelings of self worth. I know better. I know what my desires are. I know what I am and am not willing to do.

It's going to be scary and here's why - things will change, rapidly, quickly. There will be a LOT of emotions and that's really frightening to me. I will be told some of the worst of the worst things about myself and I'll need to stay strong in my convictions and my view of myself, which as I just said, I've given up on myself almost completely.

But, in the end, I've got myself and my daughter who depend on me to stand up for who I am, and whether or not the marriage survives is LESS important than whether I survive as a sentient being. Now if I only truly believed that.

So in the spirit of "Improving" I think it's important to realize that improving yourself is most important, because without that, nothing else improves.

Does this all sound reasonable? Please tell me it does. I'm not sure. I wish I was, but I'm not.

[Notwendy]

DB- I learned in co-dependency groups that we teach others how to treat us. If we tolerate someone treating us in ways we don't want, then they learn that it is OK to treat us that way.

Do you really want a marriage where it is OK for your wife to run off to another coast, date others and still enjoy the benefits of you being an emotional ( and also financial )caretaker? Because if you don't want that, then why did you tolerate it?

I know this is the improving board, but I don't believe "improving" means allowing all kinds of behavior only to stay married.  However, as long as you tolerate being treated the way you are, the behaviors are not likely to change.

But, in the end, I've got myself and my daughter who depend on me to stand up for who I am, and whether or not the marriage survives is LESS important than whether I survive as a sentient being. Now if I only truly believed that.

From my own experience, I believe your daughter depends on you to stand up for yourself. She isn't just witnessing arguments between you and your wife. She sees how your wife speaks to you and how she treats you. If your daughter was married to a man who spoke to her  and treated her like your wife speaks and treats you- what would you do? I hope you would want to punch him ( not really do it but want to ).  By putting up with this, you are setting your daughter up to think this is OK

[Meili]

I agree with Notwendy about our treating others how to treat us, and that the Improving Board is a great place for this lesson. Our relationships only improve if we stop taking part in their erosion.

[Woolspinner2000]

DaddyBear,

In reading your post, my heart hurts with yours. You see, all those things you shared are/were my story, from the perspective of a little girl. Your situation is just like my dad's and my uBPDm's. I was the little child hearing the fights at night, the yells, hearing and seeing the DV, walking into it. I have tapes that yet play in my head of the fighting, and now I am 54. I watched my dad's sadness and his broken heart over the demands that he leave his family, and when I was 12, because of the awful fights and perceived abandonment my uBPDm constantly experienced when my dad would see his parents, we could no longer see them. I grew up being afraid of them because my uBPDm painted them black. Now these past few years I am finally getting to know my aunts and uncles.

As an adult in recovery and on the journey to healing from having a pwBPD, I would encourage you to take care of yourself and nurture the deeper needs you and your child have. The impact upon you is significant and long lasting. Wounds are painful and the salt is being rubbed into them. You cannot be responsible for another adult for they are old enough to make choices themselves. But your little one needs to know you are stable and there and most of all safe.

I think it takes the greatest courage of all to change and heal oneself. The distraction to fix others has the greater pull, but first we need to care for ourselves. Then from the place of strength and greater clarity, we can see the picture as it is. Drama surrounds and stirs up the dust of confusion, hindering us from being able to see and know what to do. I also live in a state much like this with my DH, and it is hard to let go of what I want to see changed in him and in our marriage. As I step back and realize I cannot control the outcome, then my tight hold loosens, and I find empowerment beginning to flow through me. I am free to work on change and growth within me. It is very much a process. You are there, working through it. It is the most difficult choice of all to let go of what is spinning out of control but then you are improving. Hold your little one tight.

 
Wools

[RolandOfEld]

DB, I echo Notwendy 's idea that we teach people how to treat us. I think you are at a crucial turning point, the same as I am. I might just be a few weeks ahead into the process. I too have a list of terrible things I did in the name of my wife's illness, all because I thought it was so wrong to say no. And after I started saying no, that's when the REALLY worst things happened. Are happening. But I stuck it out. And after the dust settled on the last one, my wife agreed to couples counseling. A big step forward, I hope.

[Notwendy]

Woolspinner's story is similar to mine. The arguments in the evening, BPDmom threatening to leave - which terrified us as children and by the time we were teens, we sometimes wished she would just to stop the situation.

My father would occasionally put up a brief stand- but always ended up with appeasement. Eventually, this became a pattern- he would give in immediately to whatever, just to get a moment of peace. I don't blame him, as the consequences were tough, but also this became my pattern in relationships- just give in. I don't need to be graphic, but imagine teaching your daughter that she can not say "no" in her relationships. She will take this fear of saying "no" in her friendships and when dating.  She will learn from your example, but also we were taught to not say "no" to my mother because of the consequences. I still have difficulty saying "no" to requests. This caused issues in my marriage as well. I feared my H's anger. You will teach her to be what others want her to be, not to be herself.

Ironically, being raised in this situation is not the hardest part for me to deal with. I have learned to let go of these kinds of resentments and work on myself. A hard part was seeing how my mother spoke and treated my father when I was an adult. I naively stepped in and tried to rescue him. Not being aware of the drama triangle, the outcome was predictable but I didn't know it at the time. BPD mother went into victim mode, and my father stepped in as her rescuer.

As a child, I only saw my mother's issues. I think many daughters idolize their father. I know that I did. It was only when I learned to deal with my own co-dependent traits that I could begin to understand his part in the relationship. I think he did what he knew to do in his era. Now, with the internet and more information, as well as support systems like counseling and 12 step groups, we have more opportunities to work on co-dependent behaviors.

Meili mentioned extinction bursts. If a relationship is to improve - one has to stop reinforcing the dysfunctional behaviors. However, with extinction bursts, it can be temporarily worse.

[flourdust]

I found that I was only able to effectively make changes once I let go of fear. All of my BPDw's threats to divorce me, commit suicide, etc. were scary. I was afraid of divorce and how that would shake up my world.

I finally let go of the fear when I decided that I could live with being divorced. That I was not willing to give up everything else in life just to hold on to my marriage.

When the fear stopped controlling me, I was able to make -- and stick with -- changes.

Are you afraid of divorce?

Are you willing to make changes even if that means divorce?

[misterblister]

@DaddyBear77, just saying I feel your pain. I shake my head reading stories like yours because they are so similar to mine. One bit of advice I have failed to take (partly for financial reasons) is individual counseling. If you have not and can afford it, definitely do it because it's part of taking care of yourself and getting a sane 3rd party perspective outside of your relationship circles.

[Tattered Heart]

It sounds very reasonable. You can do this. You've got it in you.

When you have these conversations, remember your truth, your values, your reasons for making these changes in how you are handling her. Write down the truths about yourself so that you can easily access them if you need to. Imagine that truth like a shield. When she throws fiery darts at you, the shield of truth will deflect those lies away from you (detaching). She has learned that if she says cruel things to you that you will back down and give her what she wants.

Like flourdust, I was so scared of losing everything if my H and I split. Then I gave myself permission to live without him if I had to and all my fear, worries, etc just disappeared. I accepted that if my life would crumble then so be it. I wasn't going to live in FOG anymore. I had to get myself into a better place first and foremost. If my H wanted to come along then great; if not, then he didn't have to. And that's where I found my strength and worth again. I could live life with or without him.

If she uses threats, combat that with rationality by letting her reap what she sows. If she threatens to kill herself, then have her committed for a few days. If she threatens to leave, let her go. Just keep living your life the way you need to for your own sanity and for the safety of your daughter.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi DB,

As sad as it is to read your post, it's positive that you have reached this turning point.  There is the possibility of things being better ahead, whatever the outcome.  I willingly let my values be stomped into obliteration and eventually lost both the r/s and myself, so it got me nowhere good.  Remember when a plane gets into difficulty you must first put the oxygen mask on yourself.  Get things right for yourself and your daughter now and then see what you're working with and go from there.  Sending you strength.

Love and light x 

[happendtome]

I have read your story, DaddyBear, and i find some similarities between your wife and my ex. My ex is high functioning, but she is working and probably wont quit like yours did. My ex also didnt yell on me, but we were together only 1,5 years. So who knows, but our relationship didnt have any visible abuse. I didnt get anything this like you mostly can read in these threads were their partner is punching and yelling. Im thankful for her because of that.
I was constatntly told though that i dont appreciate her enough, taking her granted and being with her only because it offers me free sex.

When i read your former posts you worried that how would she survive and well, thats something i worry too. My ex was so vulnerable that she replaced me (i left her first, but she pulled me back) very quickly with someone who very clearly is taking advantage of her. My replacement is pathological liar, criminal (been in prison), cant keep jobs and made suicide attempt after knowing my ex only barely 2 months when some of his lies came out (I tried to warn my ex and confronted him).
Anyway, my ex even married him and i suppose its just a matter of time when they have baby together. They are just both so insecure. It hurts me to see how she isnt thinking at all, but i cant do anything and i wont either. It just doesnt have any effect.

[pearlsw]

Thanks for this wonderful, insightful, will read again many times, post. I'm going through another crisis time myself with my partner. Perhaps about to be one of the worst as his kids are set to arrive next week and he tossed divorce papers at me yesterday... .as if I can walk out the door today, etc. I'll be around here more soon, I hope, harder when I am not totally alone, but just wanted to say I am rooting for you DaddyBear! And I so grateful for this community!   for everyone!

[DaddyBear77]

I am rooting for you, too, pearlsw 

I’m so sorry you’ve had such a similar situation happen to you, too, happenedtome

I forget who said this to me first, and when they said it, but I think one of the most critical steps to making these really important changes is accepting that the marriage might end. I don’t have control over the relationship. I only have control over my own thoughts, actions, and decisions for my life. No matter how much I try and control the rages and the criticism and the horrible perception my wife has of me, those belong to her. She may chose to carry those the rest of her life, or she might decide to drop it tonight and “save Christmas.” Or anything in between. And one minute it’s one thing, the next it’s another. I know too well that all of you get this so much.

In the mean time, my own life is passing before my eyes. My daughter doesn’t get a dad. My parents don’t get a son. My brothers don’t get a brother. And I don’t even get to have myself! All anyone gets is this version of me that morphs minute by minute in a desperate attempt to “keep the peace” or “control the environment.” Bullsh-t. Those are all euphemisims for “trying to control someone else.”

I think it’s time for me to finally admit - I’m so incredibly scared to be alone. I cry thinking about it. It’s a deep, horrible, sad feeling to think that I could be all alone if my wife doesn’t stay. Sure, she hates me, but if I twist myself enough, tell enough of a story, make enough compromises of myself to meet her demands, at least we can lie down together each night. At least there’s another conversation on the horizon even if it’s a rage filled argument. At least she’s here.

I know this is pathetic. I know I need help with this. But right now all I have the strength to do is cry about it. Maybe if I finally let myself feel this fear, deep inside myself, I can find the clarity I’ve been seeking for so long.

It’s been almost exactly a year since I signed on here the first time. I hope I’ve made some progress. I wish I’d made more. Thanks to everyone for all that you’ve done to help me and all the others that come here.

[Meili]

It's not pathetic DB. 

In fact, it's the very thing that kept me involved so deeply with my x for so long. It's the reason that I've moved from relationship to relationship without nearly a breath between my whole life. There are far more of us who think this way on these boards than want to admit it.

Sit with the fear for a while. Don't fight it, don't try to control it just sit. It's just an emotion, it isn't a command for action. You don't have to do anything with or about it. You don't even have to figure out what's behind it right now. Just breath and allow it to drain itself of energy.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi DB,

I'm so sorry to hear that you struggle with this so much.  I feel for you.  One thing I must point out, which is pretty obvious and I know it's a different thing altogether to what you seek (but worth note) is this.  As a father you will never truly be alone.  You will always have a role to play as daddy and you will always be loved and valued by your daughter.  It doesn't fill your bed at night, but it can fill your heart with the love that your child has for you.  My son is my saving grace and the thing in life that keeps me going.  When I begin to feel fear about the future, longing or loneliness I think of him and am filled with warmth and reassurance that my place in this world is as mummy and the rest can fall into place around that.  It is my one constant and an anchor amid all other craziness that goes on in this lifetime.  Wishing the same peace and ease for you DB in time.  As you said, reaching acceptance that things may not work out is tough and being able to ground yourself is going to be beneficial to helping you through this difficult time.  It's terribly painful to face these things, and pain can be a catalyst for change.  Your self awareness gives you the edge in finding ways to move forwards, so work with that.  What support do you have outside of your home?

Love and light x      

[happendtome]

Daddybear, there was a period when your wife left you. Do you think she came back only because she was still married to you? 
How much there was a contact when you two were separated?

[Notwendy]

DB- It isn't pathetic. It's part of being human. Being alone can be scary. However, if your fear of being alone is causing you to lose yourself, I think you can question the cost and benefit of doing this. Giving in eases your fear, but you lose yourself. Standing up for yourself could risk being alone, but you would not lose yourself.

I think to be in an emotionally healthy relationship, we need to be OK with being single. This doesn't mean we want it, or prefer it, but fearing it to the point of not being who we are doesn't lead to the kind of relationship we really want.

An acronym for fear is "False Evidence Appearing Real" . Your fear of being alone could be worse than actually being single.

Standing up for yourself in your marriage doesn't mean you will inevitably be single. It might be, or it might not. It then puts the choice to your wife- accept the boundary- or leave. She then has to decide what kind of value the marriage has for her. If it doesn't have enough value to her to stay, then is this the marriage you want?

Keep in mind the extinction burst- she may threaten, even leave for a while - to test you. At this point you will need to stand firm with your boundary. Eventually, if you do, she will see that this is a boundary and then come to her own terms with this. By constantly giving in, this change does not happen. It feels safe to give in- you know the likely outcome. Standing up for yourself takes a risk of the unknown. We can't predict what someone else will do- but it may not be that she permanently leaves. She may decide to stay. You just don't know. You also have choices about what you choose to do if she leaves.

[flourdust]

My wife and I separated almost two years ago. I haven't been part of a romantic relationship since.

I don't feel alone.

I have my daughter -- and the time I have with her is amazing. Wonderful. Because it's just about the two of us, not about me trying to modulate my wife or soothe my daughter after her exposure to another toxic household evening. I can keep my promises to her. If I say we are going somewhere, we go -- we don't get derailed because Mrs. BPD has decided to lie on the bed and scream about abandonment. When we go there, we actually enjoy the thing we went to do -- instead of, say, standing out in the cold of a restaurant's parking lot begging Mrs. BPD to get out of the car and come inside and stop yelling that she won't like the food and it's not fair for us to take her there.

I have my friends -- I can schedule time with them, to do whatever we like, and enjoy it without any tension about what kind of time bomb is ticking away back home. Or having to cancel plans because Mrs. BPD is swearing she will kill herself if I leave her alone for two hours.

I have myself. I can sit in my living room and watch the show I want, when I want, without having to negotiate with a crazy person for "permission" to watch TV rather than spend four hours being lectured about how horrible I am. I can go to bed. It's only me in the bed, but that means I am not sharing it with a ball of seething resentment who might at any time lash out at me and demand we have a midnight fight.

Don't fear the other side. You may gain more than you lose.

[DaddyBear77]

Another blow up tonight on Christmas Eve. It looks like things are getting bad.

It started when I was informed 2 hours ago that we were exchanging stockings this year. Some years we do others we don’t. I said “oh! We’re doing stockings?” She froze and was silent. Oh boy. “I won’t be offended. Just don’t.” Luckily I had a few small things I was going to wrap and said “no, no, I have things. I just wasn’t sure.”

Then, for some stupid reason, I grabbed the wrong stocking and stuffed it with her items. That was the last straw.

I was left alone all night to finish assembling my daughter’s toys, cried a little, and now I’m going to try and “fix” things or maybe not. But things are sinking fast here. Ugh.

Regardless, I’m wishing everyone here a very Merry Christmas     

[Turkish]

That's hard to walk back given holidays are prime settings for emotionally sensitive people to desire validation (love) that they never got as children,  likely.  It's maybe like a recurring wound. 

The last Christmas we were together,  my ex dropped heavy hints for an iPad. It's not that I couldn't afford it,  but I got a 10% discount through work.  December is always hectic,  trying to meet end of the year numbers.  In remember logging in quickly from work to order it.  Then u got a pink cover. I was stressed. Things weren't going well.  Her dad had just been caught with another kept woman so I had to hear all about that (listening wasn't a problem for me,  but in retrospect it was a catalyst to send her off the rails over the coming months).

Christmas Eve, she opened the iPad.  I had it engraved with a loving message. Then she opened the pink cover.  She hates pink.  To this day I don't know what I was thinking. She started going off on me in front of her family.  Her brother's girlfriend, now wife said,  "who cares about the cover? He got you an iPad!" That stopped her from continuing to lay into me in front of everybody. I dealt with it later and fixed it.  Damage done,  however.

So I'm saying you were taken unawares, likely already WOE. You made an honest mistake under stress (a mistake no one else would have given you grief over,  but let's put that arise for now).

How do you think it will to tomorrow morning?

Merry Christmas Eve, btw