Married 20+ years, I think I've dealt with it long enough.

[Schmetterlinge]

Wow. After 20 years of stuff, where do I begin?  My hubs started therapy two years ago because his one friend died. He was depressed. As a Socially anxious person he had no other friends locally. I had dealt with verbal/emotional abuse for almost our entire marriage including harassing and berating in the bedroom most nights as I stopped wanting to have sex with him because who wants to be close to someone when you never know what hurtful things they will say next.

Also, he had thrown a physical temper tantrum (think little kid, kicking, screaming, crying, hyperventilating) as well as numerous times keeping me awake until I'd give in.

His verbal abuse and rages also were towards the kids. We were also subject to silent treatments, moodiness, and lecturing on how to do things were already knew. "You keep dropping rice, don't you know how to properly eat rice? You have to shake the fork, just like this, so you don't drop any." (Very condescending tone)

When our daughter showed signs of learning disorders, and started having anxiety attacks in 4th grade because of how he would yell, punish, and belittle her over her grades, I opened up in a session with her therapist, while my husband was there, as to how bad it was at home. I also told him I was thinking about Divorce because I want going to let it continue anymore. In my mind I was thinking, "Abuse me, fine, but it's really affecting the kids now and I won't stand for it anymore."

Nearly four months ago I asked for a separation.  Now he's saying he's the victim. Saying I've abused him by with holding sex out entire marriage. I've also had to listen to weekly monologues about it. I never totally refused him sex, I tried to do something at least once a week, maybe two at a minimum, otherwise his mood would become unbearable and I know I have to deal with a tantrum in bed.  His ideal was 2x a day.  He also had a laundry list of why he didn't know he was abusing me, and reasons surrounding why I don't want to have sex. 

He has made lots of progress with the kids.  They are feeling more comfortable around him and I'm happy about that.  He had also stopped yelling at me.  However, I get like he's moved his abuse fully over to the monologues, guilt trips, manipulation, long sighs, brooding silent treatments and just walking around like a wounded puppy.

I've asked for time and no sex, until I'm ready because I haven't wanted to have sex or kiss him for years. My skin crawl when he touches me. I no longer want to allow my body to be touched and used with out me desiring it. This is really all he cares about.  Sex, "romantic love," physical affection... .Weekly monologues about how it's his total self-worth, it's what makes him connected to the world, gives him his reason for existing, etc... .His words.  I guess he's saying his whole psyche, mental status, emotional well-being and personhood relies on him getting sex.   That's a lot of eggs to put in one basket and expect one person to carry them all around.  It has drained me.

I mostly know I need out for my own well being, but his improvements with the kids make me feel torn.  They are still on egg shells around him at times.  I also think there are underlying things which I have talked about with his therapist in the past, that I don't think he's really aware or open with his therapist with them.

So for now I'm still working in therapy on myself, working towards being financially independent (I was a SAHM, reliant on him for finances) and getting stronger about boundaries.  I haven't felt my feelings change back to romantic for him and I still dread being alone with him, but I guess I still have hope.

 Most days I feel like there is way too much water under the bridge and I just want to be free. Why do I feel so guilty about wanting to be free, and just live with kids?  Being able to feel relaxed at home and when I sleep at night is a wonderful dream!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pearlsw]

Hi Schmetterlinge,

Where would you say you are at currently with the relationship? Do you want to work on improving it or are you feeling like ending it? Feeling a bit torn perhaps? 

Why do you think you have so much guilt over the relationship? Would it be possible for him to move out and you be alone with the kids as you dream of sometimes?

I've had some of these sex issues with my husband, not years of no sex, but not wanting to at times because he's been so terrible, but we have managed to work our way through it for the most part. I can related to some of your struggles with this though!

wishing you the best, pearlsw.

[Schmetterlinge]

Pearl,

Thank you for your reply. I feel maybe my post would better fit in the "conflicted or tolerating" thread.  I do want it to be over, but I am not ready to make that final step.  He will not consider. Separation, and has already refused my asking for one.  

It's all just an issue of sex to my husband and how I never have and still not giving him what he needs. (His words.) I'm so turned off to the idea of sex with him that if that is really the base of all he needs, then I am not sure it will ever work out. Trying to see it from his point of view.

My friend says I'm getting tangled up in his hula hoop and that I should stay in my hula hoop and worry about living my own truth. I guess I feel guilty because I can't find a way to be happy with things the way they are and I would be drastically changing our kids lives.  I'm torn between feeling like I've failed at marriage and finally breaking free from abuse.  

A lot of the guilt I have I'm learning is false and is based on things (how I've made him feel sexually neglected, unloved, sad... .) my husband had repeatedly told me over the years.  I never want anybody to feel bad because of me.

[ortac77]

Pearl,

Hi

It's all just an issue of sex to my husband and how I never have and still not giving him what he needs. (His words.) I'm so turned off to the idea of sex with him that if that is really the base of all he needs, then I am not sure it will ever work out. Trying to see it from his point of view.
 

A lot of the guilt I have I'm learning is false and is based on things (how I've made him feel sexually neglected, unloved, sad... .) my husband had repeatedly told me over the years.  I never want anybody to feel bad because of me.

Forgive me for coming in on this but I suppose my question would be 'what are your needs?' Sex I believe relies on love, trust and vulnerability - and trust and vulnerability are difficult, maybe impossible when one feels abused.

False guilt - indeed, glad that you acknowledge that -" he feels bad" lets turn that around - how do you feel? I believe you need to examine that question as it might help you decide if leaving or staying are the right options for you?

[Schmetterlinge]

Thank you Ortac, My needs... .  Wow, there's something I'm still figuring out.  I know right now I don't trust him with my thoughts, desires, and that sort of stuff.  I also don't trust being vulnerable to him, especially sexually.  I honestly feel like everything he says to me is either a guilt trip, blaming or some sort of manipulation.  I'm not even sure I'm being overly on guard, but all I can trust is how my stomach feels when he talks about his feelings, and my stomach is saying run away.

  I need to be able to feel like I can relax and be myself, especially when I come home at the end of the day.  I need to be able to stop making my decisions on whether or not it will please/displease another person.  He says I should be doing that right now, that I'm free to do that, but I still see the glares, I still feel the semi-silent brooding treatment.  I need to be able to have my body to myself. 

I need to be living in a more peaceful environment, over the last two years, my own mental health has been declining, and I hope this doesn't sound too dramatic but I feel like I'm dying inside.  I need to feel like I'm not obligated to do anything with my body I don't want to.  I also need to feel like I'm breaking out of abuse so that my kids can see that it's ok to take care of yourself, even if it means making hard decisions.  I'm tired of always being on edge.  I need to freedom to just stop and breathe.

I'd say I need someone to care as much about me as I care about them, and to not feel like I take back seat to whatever they are doing, feeling, wanting or needing.  I realized when my Mom died last February, that my husband was not there for me.  I always knew he was self-centered, but  I did still believe that when the ___ hit the fan, he'd be there for me.  He wasn't.   Maybe he didn't know how, or he couldn't, but what was obvious was that he didn't care about my grief, he just wanted attention from me.  That really broke some trust with me, and I haven't been able to get any back.

I feel trapped and sad.  I feel objectified and even though he claims he has stopped abusing me (He did stop yelling and calling me names) but now I get these monologues at least once a week, where he will talk up to two hours if I let him, where I feel he is refocusing his abusing efforts on guilt, blame, and manipulation.  He believes now that I am the one who is abusing him (not giving him sex).  I'm literally so sick of sex and him wanting it, expecting it, feeling entitled to it... .Right now I can't see myself having sex with him ever again, or maybe with anyone ever again.  I just really mostly need to have my body to myself and my own space (kids, of course, can stay).

[waverider]

 Most days I feel like there is way too much water under the bridge and I just want to be free. Why do I feel so guilty about wanting to be free, and just live with kids?  Being able to feel relaxed at home and when I sleep at night is a wonderful dream!

I think you get to a point were you dont just want to be left alone, at peace, or gain temporary respite. You want to be your own manager, judge and jury of your own daily routines and actions. Without having to consider the reactions of anyone else.

We forget what this feels like... almost like forgetting what fresh air smells like, we have adapted to a toxic environment and it takes a lot to detox.

In order to make those big steps though to step away you have to be able to fully evaluate the environment you are in and not just be reactive. Otherwise any choices you make you will find hard to stick to, undermining your own sense of self worth, and leaving you feeling guilty

Leaving should be the last call after exhausting all the avenues for improving. Do you believe you have understood and explored all these possibilities? Neither Leaving or staying is failing

[ortac77]

Schmetterlinge

I feel your pain and know how difficult it is to figure out our needs, how I sought to be with someone with whom I could share my thoughts and desires - it took me a long time to realise that in doing so with my partner it triggered him because his condition is to a degree one of emotional immaturity. I would then feel guilty that I had caused him distress and thus close down and hide my feelings. In turn that would lead to accusations that I was cold and remote. Therapy helps me because I have a safe place to talk about my feelings and very slowly I am starting to appreciate myself more, understand my needs and starting to put in place strategies to meet those needs. I would add, perhaps its my age but sex actually no longer figures in my thinking!

Equally by my partner engaging in DBT I have noticed some changes but he still gets triggered easily by other people, things, but I think primarily his own thoughts, he is essentially intelligent but has never learnt how to use that constructively - essentially his own head ( and I suspect dysfunctional family background) tells him he is stupid, useless and dependant - his words not mine.

When he is triggered I have learned to detach, sometimes physically - this is for me because I understand my need for space, I am also slowly coming to appreciate that I am not scared of being alone. Another thing I have learnt is that my pwBPD will not be there for me, thats been a hard lesson but being a generally strong and independent person I think I now know that I have perhaps to a degree set myself up in the relationships I have chosen!

In reality, as I can now see after a lot of hard work I have two options, to abandon the relationship or to persevere - as waverider says I have to be my own person in terms of my daily routines and activities without worrying about the reactions of another. At this stage I chose to persevere, in some ways 13 years of living with this illness has taught me a lot about myself, I still have lessons to learn.

Is there anyway you can find some more space for you? Are you able to access your own therapy to help you figure things out - I found it essential to get a therapist who understood about personality disorders.

Ortac x

[Fie]

Hello Schmetterlinge 

I am sorry for your situation. You sound like a strong person and like a good mum.

What is the reason that you currently still are in this 'relationship' ?

xxx

[Schmetterlinge]

Thank you all for the messages!  Reading posts on this board have given me a greater deal of insight and are making me feel like I am not alone.

Waverider, I have decided not to rush any decision and I am working with my own therapist to become stronger and more aware of the situation and my own self because I just don't want to run away without making sure I gave it a lot of thought.  The temptation to just RUN is big, but with kids involved, I know I need to be more level-headed about this.  As I've been going through this process, it does seem like I need to move on, but I'm still feeling things out.

The one thing that I have been learning/noticing, and this also touches on Fie's question to me, is that throughout the couples counseling and working with his counselor, he seems to be still stuck on justifying or denying his abusive behavior (or perhaps not even aware of some of it) or blaming me for his unhappiness.   In couples therapy and my own personal therapy, I've been learning about not feeling like I am responsible for his happiness, to take care of myself more and to speak up when he is treating me wrong.

I guess if there was one thing I'm still interested in working on is he and I talking about things.  Lately, this always seems to turn into what I feel is a giant guilt trip on me.  I feel like he just wants me to listen to him talk about how rotten I'm making him feel because I'm taking a break from sex.  (I did this to see if my romantic feelings for him would return.)  But these weekly "talks" are making me feel further from that.  Sometimes I think that maybe I'm being the difficult one when it comes to talking, so still working with my therapist on that.

Oh, and Fie, I am still currently here because I'm basically not sure if I'm justified in leaving and then turning my kids' world upside down.  I still feel like I'd be ruining theirs and my husband's life, and when I first mentioned separation, he started talking about how everybody might be better off if he was dead.  Because he does not have hardly any friends and he never is open with his family about anything, he doesn't have a good support system.  He does have his own therapist.  I know I shouldn't be taking this on my back, but I"m not heartless.  I also am not financially independent, so I'm in the process of starting up a new job soon.  I guess I also just feel bad/guilty that I simply just can't be happy right now, with the way things are.  To be able to give him what he wants and needs and not feel like I want freedom.  I know that's pretty messed up.

So, again, not rushing into anything, just mostly feeling frustrated and torn about making a decision.

[Fie]

Hello,


I was together with the dad of my daughter for 10 years. It was a very unhappy relationship (also for him) and quite emotionally abusive, too.

The reason I stayed so long was fear of abandonment, and secondly, guilt towards my daughter, of having to break this union that our society puts so much emphasis on.

Also after having gone through with the break up, I felt bad about it for some years. Now I hardly can understand that anymore. We were not happy. This also means that my daughter definitely picked up these signals, hence, she was not happy either. Some time ago she told me she remembered that her dad was often screaming at me when we were still together. It shocked me. She was only 2 when we broke up.

My daughter was quite a handful when she was little. She had tantrums, etc. After I left her dad, as by miracle, the tantrums disappeared.

I don't assume your kids have tantrums, that's not the point. But I am 100 % certain that as a mum you need to help yourself to be happy, in order to let your children be happy. Also now I do realize that staying in an abusive relationship is not an example I ever want to give my child again. We all know that we all repeat our childhood patterns. I don't want  my daughter to end up in a relationship like the one I had with her dad.

To be able to give him what he wants and needs

You don't need to give him *anything*. You are in a marriage, not in slavery.