Lost and Tired Needs Ideas & Suggestions

[ClareITY]

Hello
I just read the book Essential Family Guide to BPD and just realized this is likely the disorder my husband has along with NPD. He also has ADD symptoms and naturally is depressed.

What is the difference between CONSTANT irrationality and rage vs. emotional/verbal abuse? He calls me idiotic, stupid, etc. as a reaction to my pointing out my frustrations and after reading this book I wonder what could all change if I took things less personally, and used the communication techniques listed. Does this make me a rescuer?

He cannot tolerate feedback, any alternative viewpoint, a suggestion, a request, for sure never mild overwhelmed/frustrated feelings i have- he hears criticism, blame, etc and has told marriage counselors he "doesn't like listening and talking" and even found this hard while dating and expects to have a great marriage in spite of this.  He blames me and says I need meds and he says I should take my sister's thyroid meds (with no basis for this and my thyriod is healthy) to help my mood.

He views my saying "our son doesn't need a new shirt for church cause he just put it on" as I am undermining his parenting, constantly interfering and can't let him make any decisions. However if I don't advocate for my kids they get upset with him and his controlling super dismissive communication - in this case not caring if the shirt is new and my son has texture issues/child ADD so having a shirt he already likes is a big deal and changing it to appease an angry irrational dissmissive father is upsetting to him.

He has lost all ability to hear me, function properly as a husband or parent. If I don't suggest things or beg/plead he will sit in the basement with every spare hour he as and let kids do same playing video games all day. It doesn't occur to my husband to do any proper rolemodeling, teaching, guiding sons who are 9 and 10.  My husband ENCOURAGES video games as a primary way to spend time so not my sons are not interested anything that takes work or effort like sports, reading, getting good grades on tests. My husband has zero expectations and holds them accountable to nothing and when I DO he angrily says in front of kids I am angry, mean, bullying, need better parenting skills, and demanding so of course the kids don't want to listen to you and NO ONE "especially me" wants to be around you! Then you wonder why I'm gone or keep leaving!"

He is self-medicating with porn, high-caffeine drinks, tons of coffee, smoking, tobacco, 3 drinks a day, occassional Ambien.

I filed two police reports on him for shoving me and holding me against a brick wall and (2) for demanding then grabbing a TV remote from me while picking the remote and my hands/body up off the couch with it - that was in front of our child. He retaliated with filing a police report on me.

Any boundary I set comes back to me as more harm than good.  We got separated in May where he agreed to stay half-time at a friends and loved spending summer with a single 50-yr old guy in the bars, using "separation" as a reason to attend zero family parties and weekend campouts. My kids where constantly the only ones with no Dad at many events. Once summer was over my husband got sick of his friend's couch and decided "we could end the separation" HA! While he suggested ZERO goals for us to work on, hence why I told him to be gone as much as possible in the first place.

After the second police report he tried to find a psychologist to get tested but it's taking 4 months cause the first one was't responsive and a second one told him he could get meds from his MD who in turn said no not until he had a real diagnosis to present and he found a third one but "he's busy and booked" and my husband needs to take time off work to get in. Every step I listed takes 1-2 months and we are still nowhere.

Trying to decide if I should file for divorce as any boundary i  set is viewed as "vindictve" and he thinks I'm always mean, mad, upset, vindictive for things like the last time he slept next to me (one time in year 8 months ago) I asked him to roll over when he snored and he got irate at 5am not caring if he woke up the kids telling me "how could I wake him up! He was awake and not snoring!"  Yes he was both awake and sleeping and I am vindictive.

I'm super worried about the damage this is doing to our kids are presenting mild depression, lack of motivation, very few interests, lack of joy/enthusiasm and for the other child  - anxious and tired.

I have to work at job, manage the entire house including any home fix-up projects, all kid activities/homework/school/dr appointments/healthcare. Cook all meals, do all cleaning and shopping, etc. All while he sits on his phone or sleeps is completely disengaged.

What are new possible boundaries I can set?
How is/will this affect my kids?
Is it time to file? I am not looking to be a rescurer my whole life or much longer. I am confused between praying for him/sticking in there to try things I read in this book vs. new boundaries or filing. Once I filed maybe he'd get motivated - or more angry?
Is it possible and if so, how would I actually reach him and soften his heart? I wrote him letter back in May about my compassion for him, his life obstacles, told him what I needed/expected in a marriage, offered support and he got pissed saying "the letter didn't say anything about me or how I would change like go on meds, etc."   - I have seen several therapists to validate how emotionally stable I am vs. I'm not buying his blame.

Thanks in advance any ideas! I am soo tired and so confused.
ClareITY

  

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[hope2727]

I'm sorry you are experiencing this. You have come to a good place to learn and share experiences. There are many great lessons on the right hand side of the website. There are also lots of people here who have been where you are.

I would suggest getting a therapist for yourself and children immediately. This will help you to manage your own experiences and help your children immensely. What your husband does is up to him of course.

You might want to read some of the titles on the book suggestions page here. Stop Walking on Eggshells and Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist are good places to start.

I would also contact your local domestic violence organization as they will have resources to help you. They often have people they care refer you to and will help you get information and resources you need.

Meanwhile I hope you are safe and having a reasonably peaceful New Year.

[schwing]

Hi ClareITY and

What is the difference between CONSTANT irrationality and rage vs. emotional/verbal abuse?

Someone can be constantly irrational and angry but so long as their irrational feelings do not affect behaviors that impact the lives of family and loved ones, it need not necessarily cross over into abuse.  Someone can be irrational and angry, but so long as they behave in a manner that does not express or direct their anger/emotions at someone, I would not describe that as abuse.

He calls me idiotic, stupid, etc. as a reaction to my pointing out my frustrations and after reading this book I wonder what could all change if I took things less personally, and used the communication techniques listed. Does this make me a rescuer?

Unfortunately people with BPD (pwBPD) can have very limited (or zero) emotional tools to mitigate their disordered emotions.  And unrecovered, they will often project (and direct) their disordered emotions at their family and loved ones.

How possible is it for anyone to take "less personally" hurtful words that are expressed by a supposed loved one or spouse?  Perhaps you can lessen the damage through acceptance that their dysfunctional and possibly abusive behavior is predominately caused by a disorder.

What would make you a "rescuer" in my opinion, is if you take on their responsibility for recovery onto yourself.  As I see if, if our BPD loved one is unable/unwilling to take ownership of their own disordered emotions (for example, by blaming us as the cause for all their anger, et al), then they might give use many things for us to fix or rescue: If only we were less ... .if only we did such and such ... .all of these are red herrings.  Everything you've done that your BPD loved one asked you to do, has not changed their irrational behavior or anger, has it?

He cannot tolerate feedback, any alternative viewpoint, a suggestion, a request, for sure never mild overwhelmed/frustrated feelings i have- he hears criticism, blame, etc and has told marriage counselors he "doesn't like listening and talking" and even found this hard while dating and expects to have a great marriage in spite of this. 

If someone cannot handle "feedback" or "alternative viewpoints" from their own possibly distorted viewpoint (which he may or may not share with others), how can someone gather the wherewithal to face the possibility of their own mental illness?  I do not think they can.

Your BPD loved one is choosing the other route: which is to blame everyone else for everything that is possibility dysfunctional in their family life.

He has lost all ability to hear me, function properly as a husband or parent. If I don't suggest things or beg/plead he will sit in the basement with every spare hour he as and let kids do same playing video games all day. It doesn't occur to my husband to do any proper rolemodeling, teaching, guiding sons who are 9 and 10. 

You might consider that he has never had such ability.  Or only had the ability to emulate such behavior.  But if he is unable to regulate/manage his own disorder emotions, I don't think it is reasonable to expect him to help shape or guide the emotional development of another.

After the second police report he tried to find a psychologist to get tested but it's taking 4 months cause the first one was't responsive and a second one told him he could get meds from his MD who in turn said no not until he had a real diagnosis to present and he found a third one but "he's busy and booked" and my husband needs to take time off work to get in. Every step I listed takes 1-2 months and we are still nowhere.

It sounds like a stalling technique.  Also, even if sits down with a psychologist, if he chooses not to do any of the work towards recovery, all this effort will be for naught.  If a pwBPD is not motivated to recover for their own reasons, I cannot imagine they would make any lasting progress.

I'm super worried about the damage this is doing to our kids are presenting mild depression, lack of motivation, very few interests, lack of joy/enthusiasm and for the other child  - anxious and tired.

Speaking as an adult child of a disordered parent, having a disordered parents is going to affect them in profound ways for the rest of their lives.  If they do not adopt some of the dysfunctional behaviors of his father (which is still possible), they may still end up gravitating towards peers who exhibit similar behavior patterns as their father (they will seek what is familial, or familiar).  It may affect who they choose to have as life partners as adults.

All of this is survivable. Don't think to much about the long term repercussions and focus on making efforts to improve the stability and health of their current family life.  

You should consider also getting into therapy yourself because what you are going through, what more you will possibly go through still, it would benefit you to gather as much emotional/physical support for yourself as possible.

You are in the right place.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[ClareITY]

Thanks for the amazing wise responses. First time I have felt so understand and less alone.

I have a therapist for me but looking for one for kids; your reply makes me realize I need to make it top priority. Thanks!

I also have a DV therapist and have researched an Order of Protection (O.P.) but found they are not given much for emotional abuse, the best judgement I could hope for is the judge orders us both in court in 30 days to each tell our side - which will likely turn into a typical circus where he is not self-aware or honest and makes up/exaggerates what I have said. If I would go through all this, would it not be better to file for divorce or is seeking this O.P. a good future step?  . . . the thought of all this work once I found out the steps put me a slight panic and I had to take a step back so now I'm still very stuck with a hugely abusive BPD.

I did the video on Reducing Conflict and took copious notes; will work on this. GREAT VIDEO. And I will check out those banks - thanks!

RE: Difference between angry/irrational vs. abuse- per your statement it IS directed at me mostly as replies to my frustration/at times upset so how can I mitigate this or what/how to set limits? The only limit I can get from anyone (therapists, friends, pastors) is to file for divorce. Is there anything short of that while I try a few more things or is this relationship not salvagable (how do you tell) and I need to be searching for a new job so I can keep my house upon divorce. I can't imagine filing and he said he'll still stay here. OR should I be focusing on softening his heart with info I read in these books? I wish the abuse would stop TODAY.

Schwing: how can I work to minimize the effect on my kids? How do I best explain to a 9 & 10-yr old what is happening with their Dad?  It is beyond difficult to raise them myself and IN SPITE OF my husband's abuse toward me in front of them, his anger, etc. When I set limits and consequences for my kids and enforce them my husband undoes them in front the kids so they don't know who to believe. My husband tells me in front of them I am mean, bullying, and overly emotional (he views a firm or irritated voice as such which comes after he is not willing to get our kids off video games or out of the basement or he uses the entire weekend for himself). 

Thank you so much!

PS - how is this survivable? I trust it is but truly like how? Any recovery would take months/years and for now he is not willing to speak with me at all to improve things in any way OR I file for divorce and that is painful for years too. 

[schwing]

If I would go through all this, would it not be better to file for divorce or is seeking this O.P. a good future step?  . . . the thought of all this work once I found out the steps put me a slight panic and I had to take a step back so now I'm still very stuck with a hugely abusive BPD.

I don't know what would be the best approach for you and your family.  What I do know is that people with BPD (pwBPD) will respond to some situations in very predictable ways and I'm hoping that by describing some of these behaviors/expected responses, you will be better prepared to execute whatever plan is best for you.

An important motivator that pwBPD have is the irrational fear of (real & imagined) abandonment.  And it is important to distinguish the difference between being alone and being abandoned.  PwBPD can be alone (in spite of all the insecurities they express) they are just petrified of being abandoned or left first.

So any actions you take that forces distance between you and your BPD loved one, could be perceived as an effort to leave them (and thus abandon them).  And in order to "frantically avoid" this perceived abandonment, they will accede to any requirements you might have once expressed; such as by finding a therapist, or limiting some offending behavior.  And it may seem like they are considering respecting your needs. The thing is, once the threat is taken off the table, they are no longer motivated by this perceived fear of abandonment and slowly revert to behavior that is easier for them.

Also the flip side of "avoiding (perceived) abandonment" is to be the person who abandons first.  If they leave you first before you leave them (even if you have no intention of leaving them), they will have avoided their abandonment.  This is why in so many cases, people here report of being cheated on or left unexpectedly (abandoned).

My thought is that whether your file your RO or file for divorce, he will both woo you (or appease you) in order to delay the process and perhaps at the same time find an exit plan (a replacement relationship).  And whereas it would be nearly inconceivable for you to consider entering whole heartedly into a new relationships without having gone through a grieving process, for pwBPD, they very commonly engage in serial overlapping relationships.  I question that they even go through any grieving process.

Is there anything short of that while I try a few more things or is this relationship not salvagable (how do you tell) and I need to be searching for a new job so I can keep my house upon divorce. I can't imagine filing and he said he'll still stay here. OR should I be focusing on softening his heart with info I read in these books? I wish the abuse would stop TODAY.

Before you make any big decisions that may or may not force his hand.  :)o try the various lessons/techniques that are described here for people who endeavor to improve their relationship with their BPD loved ones.  I think it would be valuable to limit your pain sufficiently so that you can make a more deliberate choice, one that stems from certainty and knowledge about this mental illness from which your partner potentially suffers.

Schwing: how can I work to minimize the effect on my kids? How do I best explain to a 9 & 10-yr old what is happening with their Dad?  It is beyond difficult to raise them myself and IN SPITE OF my husband's abuse toward me in front of them, his anger, etc. When I set limits and consequences for my kids and enforce them my husband undoes them in front the kids so they don't know who to believe. My husband tells me in front of them I am mean, bullying, and overly emotional (he views a firm or irritated voice as such which comes after he is not willing to get our kids off video games or out of the basement or he uses the entire weekend for himself).  

As I see it, when your kids are in pain, they will gravitate towards your husband's permissiveness.  In a sense, they are learning to utilize his own coping mechanisms of avoiding and distracting oneself to avoid painful feelings.  They will also see your husband in his irrational states and will need to decide for themselves if there is a relationship between the irrationality and their father's pursuits.  It may not seem like they are going through a lot but IMHO kids pick up on their parents' emotional cues and will sense more than they can consciously articulate.  

One question to ask is from whom are your kids expected to model their behaviors of recognizing, expressing and resolving their emotional distress?  

PS - how is this survivable? I trust it is but truly like how? Any recovery would take months/years and for now he is not willing to speak with me at all to improve things in any way OR I file for divorce and that is painful for years too.

This is survivable for all of you.

For your kids, they will not always live under their father's roof.  And when they are young adults, they will be able to decide for themselves if their father is a reliable, supportive parent, or not.   And they will decide for themselves if they are not in some or many ways behaving like their father (or like you).  This will show up in the kinds of close relationships they form as young adults.  They will make mistakes.  And they will learn from them.  But sometimes pain is the best instructor of life.  And it is not easy to watch someone you love make mistakes that put them in pain.

For your husband, his disorder is all about surviving.  The thing is, some of the situations from which he is trying to "survive" exists only in his head.  Consider this, in the years that you have been together, try re-interpreting his behavior from the perspective that he has spent a great deal of his time imagining or "feeling certain" that you were somehow plotting to leave him.  And he is convinced that he is not just imagining this. This is perhaps in part what he is spending his time avoiding or distracting himself from.  And these disorder feelings are particularly highlighted during times that *he* associates with familial closeness or significance.  It's like during that times that *he* perceives as important family occasions, he is also reminded of his disordered fear that everyone close to him will abandon or betray him.  And then he acts out on these disordered feelings.

He is trying to survive his disordered feelings, but part of his survival instinct is to believe that everyone else is the cause of his disordered feelings.

Ultimately, you can only control how wish to survive this experience.  It will not be easy.  It will probably be one of the more painful experiences of your life.  But it is survivable.

[livednlearned]

Hi ClareITY,

I wanted to join others in saying hi and welcoming you.  

I'm so sorry for the sadness and suffering that brings you here, and glad you found the site. My pwBPD was fond of name-calling and insults and it can really take a toll. Of course, you are not those names he calls you, and if anything, they represent how he feels about himself. PwBPD will often outsource their rage and suffering onto others -- it's much easier to process negative emotions on the faces of loved ones versus experiencing them directly. A sign he has very little in the way of relationship or communication skills.

On the topic of an order of protection, you might find Gavin de Becker's book Gift of Fear helpful. He has a chapter in there about protective orders and when they do/don't work. Generally, when you bring law enforcement, things escalate. Of course, play that card if you need to. What might be effective for you is to evaluate the risks while gathering information and putting together a plan, which doesn't mean you have to do anything just yet, it's simply insurance that you know what steps to take if things take a turn for the worse.

Like schwing said, it's a good idea to pick up some skills here to help you stabilize whatever emotional instability comes your way, whether you decide to stay or go. We will support you either way  

About your kids. One of the greatest gifts I learned here is to validate their feelings in all of this. With my son, I kept making excuses for his dad, which I can now see was terribly invalidating and really hurtful. Here are some helpful resources to get you started (there is a link at the bottom of the page about validation and kids).

It's also a good idea to keep thoughts of leaving to yourself for now. Maybe take things one small step at a time, like getting the kids a therapist. My pwBPD had a really hard time with that -- he saw our son as an extension of himself and perceived therapy as a sign of weakness. It took some creative problem-solving to get then S8 into therapy.

[ClareITY]

LiveNLearned, Hope2727, Schwing - I just reread your words after I learned more by reading 80% of the "Stop Walking on Eggshells" workbook and REALLY REALLY appreciate your words! Thanks again so very much!