I'm so Glad I don't have BPD

[Jeffree]

Among all the horrible fates that could have been mine, one of the things I am glad that hasn't befallen me is BPD or any of the PD variants.

I couldn't imagine having someone stand by my side through thick and thin, and even still want to help me after all the hell I had wrought onto them, and piss it all away for some fly-by-night lover. Of course that's not the only permutation in a PD's arsenal, but you get the idea. They tend to flee suddenly for whatever the reason only to be accepted back and be even worse.

I just can't relate to that.

However, being on the receiving end of such treatment and being regularly accused of things I didn't even do, let alone all the good things I tried to be, that ain't too fun either. But at least I have a sense of what my heart is and what it feels, which gives me hope.

J

[Seenowayout]

Mine's inability to see that maybe it wasn't the world that was so awful, but maybe her behavior was responsible for all of her broken stormy relationships, her lack of true friends, her impulsive behavior -- that victim thing always blew my mind.  Her complete lack of self awareness.  So sad.  That and the difficulty to cure the disorder.

[araneina]

Mine's inability to see that maybe it wasn't the world that was so awful, but maybe her behavior was responsible for all of her broken stormy relationships, her lack of true friends, her impulsive behavior -- that victim thing always blew my mind.  Her complete lack of self awareness.  So sad.  That and the difficulty to cure the disorder.

Yeah... .I remember at first thinking "Boy this poor guy has rotten luck with all of these crazy exes and girls who cheated on him!"  But once I really got to know the man behind the mask I started thinking "Huh... .the common denominator here is... .him."  But he'd never see it that way.  God, the victim complex was so exhausting.

I finally realized the common denominator in all of my crappy relationships was me, and so I'm in therapy for that.  That was my biggest takeaway from this relationship - no way was I going to allow myself to become embittered and resentful towards relationships like my ex.

[once removed]

im glad i dont have BPD too.

but we all have blinders. i know that when i focus too much on my strengths, or the difficulties i dont have vs the difficulties others do have, my blinders can get bigger. none of us are perfect, but we are the only ones we have control over.

we also all dated someone with BPD or traits of the disorder. there must have been something that attracted us to BPD (and/or the relationship, its dynamics, and our partners themselves), no?

[Jeffree]

we also all dated someone with BPD or traits of the disorder. there must have been something that attracted us to BPD (and/or the relationship, its dynamics, and our partners themselves), no?

I'm not so sure about that.

I think many beginnings with BPDs do mimic those of "normal" dating practices. It's what we do when things go haywire that's the learning place. However, the unhealthy elements don't usually start showing themselves until we're hooked, and then instead of cutting bait we try to negotiate and/or compromise the situation back to a normal state of functioning.

I had my therapist at the time meet my STBx shortly after we started dating. He was impressed, and when things started to go a little off the rails after we got married, he chalked it up to cultural differences. And he didn't seem that alarmed about her mental state when we were in marriage counseling either.

Rather than diagnose her, he tried to give us skills to be better partners to one another.

She can be very engaging and sweet when she wants to be. She can also be hell on Earth behind closed doors.

I do own up to one very big mistake, which was marrying her after only 4 months of dating. I did know her from my teenage years, so there was a familiarity that led to the short honeymoon, but it was definitely a mistake nonetheless.

There was also a strange tongue lashing I got a couple of months into our dating that I thought was due to her being drunk, but it turned out to be the first sighting of what would be the BPD (or I thought the PTSD, which she was diagnosed with) demon.

BTW, PTSD is no small thing, either.

J

[once removed]

However, the unhealthy elements don't usually start showing themselves until we're hooked

i think this is one of those normal elements of a relationship. three months, for example, is usually a major turning point in any relationship. the honeymoon begins to wear off. there are psychological clashes and tests, if not overt conflict. to tell you the truth, in my case, it was there from day one, stuff i swore id never put up with. and there was, of course, a lot about her/the relationship i liked/loved.

, and then instead of cutting bait we try to negotiate and/or compromise the situation back to a normal state of functioning.

but this is what i was getting at. there was something that hooked us. there were reasons we stayed and persisted, even once we (some of us, not all) knew it wasnt sustainable. im not necessarily referring to mistakes we made in the relationship, just that theres a lot to be learned from that realization.

if im not mistaken (correct me if im wrong), you mentioned youve been in relationships with a couple of disordered women. ive been in a few relationships with gals with BPD traits myself. rhetorically speaking, how much do we truly dislike it? thats what im aiming at.

[MeandThee29]

Mine is a whiz at surface-level relationships. He can be utterly charming. People at hotels and restaurants adore him. My therapist (who was once his as well BTW) has said that when he decides to indeed find someone else, as he has been threatening for several years, he won't have any problems. She told me to be ready. The new woman will be amazed to find him, and he'll be thrilled to have someone completely devoted to him. He'll justify it by saying how horrible I am, and how he deserves a woman totally dedicated to him, willing to endure anything for him.

Over time and behind closed doors, she'll see the entitlement and control. Maybe even the suicide threats will come back -- "If you don't love me the way I say, I'll have nothing to live for."

I can't imagine living that way. I'm pretty much always the same and want people to be whole and balanced. Demanding that people like me and the control thing are not in my vocabulary.

[Jeffree]

how much do we truly dislike it?

And this presents a conundrum.

It’s not that I like the disorder(ed) at all. However, my two spouses were the only women even remotely interested in dating me regularly after multi-year stretches of bachelorhood. I’m not saying I can’t be alone. Rather, after meeting enough women who there’s no connection with, when there is one and it’s reciprocated there’s something there hard to resist, especially given how well things started out.

I think where I get tripped up is when the disorder begins to be norm and not the exception. That’s when I don’t act on my own behalf and get caught up in the “fix-it” savior loop.

J

[once removed]

i can certainly relate. i spent three years single before getting with my ex, and it made a lot of sense that id learned what i needed, gone as far as i could, and that she would be the one. healthy gals might have had initial attraction to me, but it would fizzle, or i would over pursue, lots of stuff.

why is it you think you havent connected with other women, and how have things gone/played out? there can be a whole host of reasons, and usually they are not intuitive or obvious. in my case, i realized (one part of) it was due to an unconscious fear of intimacy, which wasnt obvious at all, because very few people, least of all me, dont desire intimacy; thats just one example, there are many.

That’s when I don’t act on my own behalf and get caught up in the “fix-it” savior loop.

thats an insightful connection. personally i favor "readjusting and reconsidering" to say, "running" and hypervigilance, but certainly, it can be a loop we get caught in. can you give some examples of how the fix it savior loop plays out for you?

[Jeffree]

why is it you think you havent connected with other women, and how have things gone/played out?

Bad luck. I have met plenty of solid citizens, but they haven’t been interested back. I’m pretty open minded to getting to know someone and do appreciate the moments in time shared. I just feel the expectations from the person across the table are just not similar to mine. I like getting to know someone and having good laughs. The other person seems to want to be swept off her feet instantly.

Fix it loop... .

STBx would drink a lot every night, then get ornery. I would sit there and try to talk her in from the ledge and eventually ask her to not drink so much. Which she did. But then it would start back up or be worse at parties. Then I would try to reel it back in thinking I could fix it.

There are just so many examples... .trying to fix the relationship in counseling yet she not showing up half the times. Me always checking in about her participation in things, she never showing up, and me attending and covering up for her... .

J

[gotbushels]

I do own up to one very big mistake, which was marrying her after only 4 months of dating. I did know her from my teenage years, so there was a familiarity that led to the short honeymoon, but it was definitely a mistake nonetheless.

If it helps some, I did entertain the idea of marrying my girlfriend from school if we ever met each other again. Sometimes we feel so familiar with some people, and it feels like we've been alone for so long, the idea that the search could be over so soon and we can go join our married peers straightaway--it has its appeal.

[Jeffree]

If it helps some, I did entertain the idea of marrying my girlfriend from school if we ever met each other again. Sometimes we feel so familiar with some people, and it feels like we've been alone for so long, the idea that the search could be over so soon and we can go join our married peers straightaway--it has its appeal.

Exactly! That’s what happened with my soon to be ex. There was just something about her that always just always touched me to the point where I was powerless against her charms. When I married her so soon it was because of what I was feeling for her. Period. I don’t regret that. I took a chance and lost. It happens.

It’s not as though I take enentering into a relationship lightly. These things don’t happen in a vacuum either. It’s a lot like golf. All you can do is play each shot the best you can. Sometimes you make a bad swing but wind up with a good shot. Sometimes you make a great swing and the shot turns out badly. And then there’s all that happens in between those extremes.

J

[Pretty Woman]

Hi Jeffree,
    Great post! I think BPD is a very damning condition and it is worse for the sufferer than the recipient of the outbursts/bad behaviors.

Had you asked me that three years ago, I would have gotten very defensive. Now, I can honestly say: Sucks to be them.

Imagine never being truly happy? Feeling stuck in limbo, with no real identity, just a hodge podge of ex-lovers likes, dislikes and interests. Doesn't sound all that great.

I think what Once Removed was getting at was once shyt hits the fan and we try to salvage this shyt show, that is where we are being compliant in unhealthy, toxic behaviors. Rather than leave, we try to fix and this reveals our co-dependency, people pleasing issues that usually stem from not feeling "good enough" growing up. Not saying this is always the case, but likely.

My ex dated a homicide detective. As soon as my ex started flipping out, she got rid of her. She went no contact and never looked back.  To hear my ex explain it, she is "the one who got away" and she left her because she wasn't "good enough" for her cop crowd.

Personally, I think this woman who deals with sociopaths regularly was healthy enough to know she needed to "get out" of the situation and left. She didn't try to fix, she didn't pass go, she finished it and moved on.

That IS healthy.

The irony is my ex then went for a prison psychologist who is FRIENDS with the homicide detective  . That woman tried to "fix her" and was slapped with restraining orders, etc. She is in the mental health profession and fell right into the Toxic Tango.
Which is not uncommon. You will find many BPD's work in mental health-which scares me a bit!

Anyways, I think going through this you learn. I know I have issues. I have abandonment issues. Her leaving killed me inside, however she was killing me inside when we were dating. I crave her coming back ONLY so I can prove to myself it wasn't all my fault, she is truly disordered, however my rational brain tells me I don't need proof. It was a bad, bad relationship.

Your post title is: I'm so glad I don't have BPD. I can't tell you what to do or say but be really careful with labels. We all have traits of things and some of us probably DO have BPD traits. I was raised by a BPD with a twin sister who is also BPD... .I am sure I got schmutzed with a little bit of their crazy. I am OCD and can be high strung.

How about: I'm so glad I am more aware due to my toxic dance with my ex?   THAT is probably more fitting. Look at all you've learned and how far you've come in your healing, Friend!

PW
 

[Jeffree]

I think what Once Removed was getting at was once shyt hits the fan and we try to salvage this shyt show, that is where we are being compliant in unhealthy, toxic behaviors. Rather than leave, we try to fix and this reveals our co-dependency, people pleasing issues that usually stem from not feeling "good enough" growing up. Not saying this is always the case, but likely.

I find this a very interesting (and pretty common) line of thinking here.

But here's the thing... .

How does one determine the demarcation like between mental health and co-dependency in a relationship?

Let's say sh1t hits the fan... .now what?

If one is healthy, do you just up and leave and not take it anymore? Boom! There's the sign of BPD I was looking for. See ya! Final straw... .bye.

If one is co-dependent, do you try and work with your BPD to turn things around indefinitely, aka staying?

I think nons sometimes take on way too much of the burden of responsibility for their role in the BPD relationship. "I should have seen it sooner." "If I knew it was hopeless, I should have done X." "I am co-dependent because I tried to fix things." On and on and on.

I really doubt that any of us here purposely chose to take action within a BPD relationship that we knew would cause us life-changing harm. While in retrospect we can see more clearly what was truly going on with our BPD and our role in the relationship, blaming ourselves negatively for it and looking for ways to take on a much-too-large part of the responsibility for something that did not work out well for us is not helpful.

When you love, sometimes you just lose. You know?

J

[Pretty Woman]

Jeffree, interesting point! I think there is a fine and sometimes blurred line there. I am not saying "see ya, I'm outta here" is the answer to being healthy... .it's kinda arse-holy    I am sure most compassionate loving people would try once to try to help someone, at least once.

It's when we stay and put up with the poor behavior. Me, for example allowed this person to leave me 13x. That is NOT healthy. I am, or was the poster child for unhealthy... .

but I had no idea until the "gift" of the Borderline. This was a true wake up call. I started re-evaluating my "nearest and dearest" and realized I gravitate towards people who belittle me to feel better. I did a serious housecleaning and removed these people from my life. It wasn't cruel or dismissive... .I just slowly detached and found myself a very solid support system of good people.

Where I was three years ago, where I am now... .two totally different places and I have to thank my ex. Not thank her for spitting in my face or pulling my hair, but thank her for helping me realize I am worth so much more than this.
 

[once removed]

im getting at two things 

1. i think when we compare ourselves to others, either at our own expense or theirs, we are building a fragile foundation for our self esteem, and

2. in this case, if we are doing the latter, does it ring true?

I think nons sometimes take on way too much of the burden of responsibility for their role in the BPD relationship. "I should have seen it sooner." "If I knew it was hopeless, I should have done X." "I am co-dependent because I tried to fix things." On and on and on.

... .

While in retrospect we can see more clearly what was truly going on with our BPD and our role in the relationship, blaming ourselves negatively for it and looking for ways to take on a much-too-large part of the responsibility for something that did not work out well for us is not helpful.

i saw this the other day, i thought it was pretty succinct:

It's not about who was "effed up" - its about understanding what you connect to in these relationships and shifting to a healthier model.

[Jeffree]

1. i think when we compare ourselves to others, either at our own expense or theirs, we are building a fragile foundation for our self esteem, and

All I said was I'm so glad I don't have BPD. I am glad many, many unfortunate fates have not befallen me. I'm glad I wasn't stillborn. I'm glad I wasn't in the Twin Towers trapped above the impact zone and jumped to my death. I'm glad I've not been in a shooting. I'm glad I didn't rush ashore on D-Day, or fought in a war, so on and so forth. It's not a comparison. It's just counting my lucky stars.

2. in this case, if we are doing the latter, does it ring true?

Not doing the first and not doing the latter.

J

[araneina]

I think what Once Removed was getting at was once shyt hits the fan and we try to salvage this shyt show, that is where we are being compliant in unhealthy, toxic behaviors. Rather than leave, we try to fix and this reveals our co-dependency, people pleasing issues that usually stem from not feeling "good enough" growing up. Not saying this is always the case, but likely.

I find this a very interesting (and pretty common) line of thinking here.

But here's the thing... .

How does one determine the demarcation like between mental health and co-dependency in a relationship?

Let's say sh1t hits the fan... .now what?

If one is healthy, do you just up and leave and not take it anymore? Boom! There's the sign of BPD I was looking for. See ya! Final straw... .bye.

If one is co-dependent, do you try and work with your BPD to turn things around indefinitely, aka staying?

I think nons sometimes take on way too much of the burden of responsibility for their role in the BPD relationship. "I should have seen it sooner." "If I knew it was hopeless, I should have done X." "I am co-dependent because I tried to fix things." On and on and on.

I really doubt that any of us here purposely chose to take action within a BPD relationship that we knew would cause us life-changing harm. While in retrospect we can see more clearly what was truly going on with our BPD and our role in the relationship, blaming ourselves negatively for it and looking for ways to take on a much-too-large part of the responsibility for something that did not work out well for us is not helpful.

When you love, sometimes you just lose. You know?

J

I've been discussing this with my therapist.  She keeps asking me why I put all of the burden on myself.  I strongly feel I should have firmly ended things the first time my ex tried a soft break up.  But he drew me back in and EVERY time he did that I ran running back into his arms because I was hopeful it would work.  I tell my T I should have known better than to stick around as long as I did, and she keeps saying that I'm being too hard on myself.  But where is that line?  I don't know.

[Jeffree]

But where is that line?


In the next relationship. 

I wonder if this "being too hard on oneself" is the remnants of the BPD relationship... .fleas as they say.

We get so programed to think we can negotiate change with a BPD and doing all these mind-bending things to make it work out with them that we still hear those thoughts long after the relationship is over.

J

[araneina]

But where is that line?


In the next relationship. 

I wonder if this "being too hard on oneself" is the remnants of the BPD relationship... .fleas as they say.

We get so programed to think we can negotiate change with a BPD and doing all these mind-bending things to make it work out with them that we still hear those thoughts long after the relationship is over.

J

Possibly.  I am innately hard on myself in every aspect of my life.  But yes, I frequently find myself wondering if I am the one with BPD.  I share some characteristics similar to it.

I keep thinking I would like to try dating again but every time I think about jumping online I just... .I get... .not scared, but I dunno, worn out?  Like the thought of ending up in another relationship like my last one just makes me weary.  And I worry I'm going to run away at the first indication that something might be off with the guy.  I need to move past that.

[Jeffree]

Hopefully with age comes acceptance. Life’s hard enough with everyone else judging us harshly. We don’t need to pile on.

I used to care much more about what others thought of me. Now that I’ve lost just about everything and am trying to rebuild my life, it’s more about survival than impressions. I can’t worry about what I could have done sooner to avoid this fall from the mountain top and salvage my lifestyle and career. I just have to carry on devoid of ego and keep trying to find my way.

BTW, thinking you might be BPD could actually be proof that you’re not.

I tried online dating for a six-month trial. I’m not a fan. I got one date out of it, a nice interesting woman actually, who I never got a second date with.

J

[MeandThee29]

I've been discussing this with my therapist.  She keeps asking me why I put all of the burden on myself.  

I hear you. I put the burden of "saving" the marriage on myself. When he left, I took on the blame. Such a heavy load.

He's convinced most of his relatives that I'm 90% at fault and incapable of loving. He tells them he has no idea why I won't reconcile. One contacted me because her gut said that wasn't right, and she told me that another has doubts. That's it though. I was once close to them, but backed off. My job isn't to justify myself in a relationship that they really haven't observed over the years. They don't  know the contempt and emotional cruelty. The patriarch of the family is convinced that if I just forgave my husband, all would be well. Never mind the aspects of narcissism here. I wouldn't last a week if we got back together. He's just discard me again.

At times I still try to think how I could have done things differently, but it's useless. The reality is that I marriage someone with BPD/NPD tendencies who went full-blown.

[Jeffree]

He's convinced most of his relatives that I'm 90% at fault and incapable of loving.

This is definitely one of the hurtful things about the aftermath. It's amazing to me that none of my STBx's extended family who got to meet me, interact with me, even see some of her antics toward me, never reached out to for a reality check or to see how I am doing. They knew I was over the moon in love with her, know I did everything I could to make it work, know the kids live with me and love me, yet they have nothing to do with me and everything to do with her. It is absolutely incredible.

However, the family of her deceased significant other (he never married her, though had two kids with her) are solid with me. They know what she's about and they are very appreciative of my efforts to parent his children back to health and functionality. I am very proud of my relationships with them.

You win some and you lose some, eh?

J

[MeandThee29]

He's convinced most of his relatives that I'm 90% at fault and incapable of loving.

This is definitely one of the hurtful things about the aftermath.

Yesterday I discussed this with my counsellor. My side of the family is very small, basically just one person I have ongoing contact with and two others with infrequent contact. At the beginning his family assured me that they would love and support both of us. Don't get me wrong. I get that blood is thicker than water, but I grieve for the loss of those relationships. It's tough to bridge the gap these type of things create. He's very needy and spends hours on the phone with them every week. They have jobs and families of their own. After awhile, it's natural to focus on that and not the person's spouse. So I just backed off and let it be what it is.

It's ironic because he accusing me of letting everything else in my life get in the way, but he's totally focused on his relatives and is outfitting a luxury house so they can come visit. My finances are very shaky, and we may end up in a friend's basement later in the year. I do have good legal counsel, but she said to prepare for anything, and I'm glad we have that option.

[gotbushels]

2. in this case, if we are doing the latter, does it ring true?

Not doing the first and not doing the latter.

I just wanted to share that I heard you guys on this one.

1. i think when we compare ourselves to others, either at our own expense or theirs, we are building a fragile foundation for our self esteem,

I do think it's possible to compare two people without expensing either person, just wondering what thoughts you guys had on this one while we're here. 

I tell my T I should have known better than to stick around as long as I did, and she keeps saying that I'm being too hard on myself.  But where is that line?  I don't know.

I wonder if this "being too hard on oneself" is the remnants of the BPD relationship... .fleas as they say.

araneina something that might help here are some thoughts from members that I've seen. After a certain point in the relationship, the non seems to come to realise that they really are better off without the relationship with the pwBPD. Partially even so. At that point, some nons turn that inward, but seemingly without a useful resolution.

I think a different way you might look at it is "I wish I'd known better than to stick around". It's seems minor but I do think it makes a difference. In this construction, you can see that it's a bit more forgiving in the sense that there's less pressure on you to have been smarter--and less resentment (upon the self, partner, or relationship) because how could you have known.

We get so programed to think we can negotiate change with a BPD and doing all these mind-bending things to make it work out with them that we still hear those thoughts long after the relationship is over.

Jeffree I was curious about your thoughts on this one too. Where does the programming come in where the non can negotiate change with a BPD?

[MeandThee29]

I think a different way you might look at it is "I wish I'd known better than to stick around". It's seems minor but I do think it makes a difference. In this construction, you can see that it's a bit more forgiving in the sense that there's less pressure on you to have been smarter--and less resentment (upon the self, partner, or relationship) because how could you have known.

I agree with this. It admits an error or weakness but moves on. My counsellor has emphasized with me that I can get through this and become a better person because of what I now know.  I can help others with what I've learned. Even though I have a lot of uncertainty in 2018, there are more possibilities now as I become more whole.

That's different than just saying how things are better.

[Jeffree]

Where does the programming come in where the non can negotiate change with a BPD?

Oh, no, no, no... .

There is no CAN in this equation. There is only THINK... .the POSSIBILITY of being able to negotiate change.

The programming is in this dynamic of the BPD making these promises (which turn out to be empty) of everlasting love, if only the non could <fill in the blank>.

For instance, my STBx was big in telling me I was missing these HUGE cues that she was ready to seduce me. That if I wouldn't have left to go golfing on a weekend morning, that the heavens would have parted and I would have experienced lovin' like no man has ever experienced.

OK, so the following weekend, I make it a point to stay home, sleep in with her, and strap in for the ride of my life. Oh, gee, but guess what happens... .an argument the night before that bleeds into the next morning, that interferes with the commencement of the love-in.

So, while an incredible promise seemed to be made, the follow-through was lacking.

It's that push-pull dynamic that I think many of us get ensnared in.

BPD: It's your fault I'm being cruddy to you.
Non (thinking): OK. I will try doing the opposite of what just triggered you.

The next scenario:
BPD: You don't really mean that, because last time you said, "Blah, blah, blah."
Non: No. I really do. I thought about it, and you're right.

This still doesn't fix anything, so maybe there's another solution.

This dance goes on and on with the hopes that there is something one can say to change the BPDs negative reactions to us. On and on, until we're like that Chris Farley character in Tommy Boy, where we're cursing at ourselves for being so stupid long after the relationship is over.

J

[gotbushels]

Ah I see. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Jeffree.

Yes, the dynamics of some of the disagreements can certainly draw us in--ensnare the mind. I think of it as kind of a perpetual trouble-shooting state. You can't really relax.

... .an argument the night before that bleeds into the next morning, that interferes with the commencement of the love-in.

I'm right there with you. I had this happen on a holiday we went on, something like fighting from 7pm at night all the way until 4am. A lot of the next day for me was spent being emotionally and mentally burnt out. And from reading this, I am once again thankful the worst of those things are over.

This still doesn't fix anything, so maybe there's another solution.

This dance goes on and on with the hopes that there is something one can say to change the BPDs negative reactions to us. On and on... .

Figuring this out enough to be more effective in these "fights" made life so much easier. God Bless Mason and Kreger 

I hope you're enjoying your peace.

[Jeffree]

I hope you're enjoying your peace.


You don't even know. I can't tell you how incredible it is to be able to come and do as I please without having to worry about what my STBx is going to think, say, react, etc.

And I have been sleeping so deeply lately, too.

I feel refreshed and reborn.

J

[gotbushels]

I can't tell you how incredible it is to be able to come and do as I please without having to worry about what my STBx is going to think, say, react, etc.

And I have been sleeping so deeply lately, too.

I feel refreshed and reborn.

Splendiferous.

I have the EXACT same thing with my dBPDw.  Probably 80% of the time as we get ready for bed she finds something to be upset about.

I am so x-x-x-xing exhausted. 
... .
Got to bed after 1, and up at 4:30am. 
... .
I actually fell asleep about three times in the less than 2 minutes it took my computer to boot up and open my daily programs. 

I think a lot of nons here have a special relationship with beds.