Conflicted in 18 year marriage— need guidance on handling verbal abuse.

[oinoxn]

I am 70 and my wife who I think is classic BPD is 67 and we have been together for 18 years.  I still don't know what to do.  She says get a divorce.  She said it in 2016 so I did and she moved 500 miles away.  She was alone and had no one. I am her only family.   After a few months I rescued her, knowing she would never leave here. I fell for the I'll take meds schtick.  I knew she would saboutage that. Besides being stupid I did it need because I consider her family and I realize how ill she is.

At this point in time we don't talk unless she is verbally abusing me. If I say anything the reply is a F U or something derogatory about my daughter, me or deceased father.  I try not to say anything about anything for fear of being verbally attacked.  I help if she asks me to do something that I feel is a reasonable request ( I did not think removing pictures of my daughter and father from the walls was reasonable).  I block her on Messenger when she goes on abusive tirades.

Currently I leave the house (she basically knows where to find me) for as long as I can and when I come home I go into my room and close the door (to avoid her coming in with verbal abuse).

I can feel the hatred, and if I am not sure I can read about it in her emails.  At this time I don't think iI want to deal with the stress she will create during a contested divorce.  I am getting close though. If I thought she could be civil enough for a mediated divorce I would seriously consider it.  I have looked up mediators in the area.  Just not ready for a contested divorce at the moment.  I have asked her how much does she need to live on and she says she wants nothing and later will say she wants everything I have.  At one point she said we can get divorced and live together like roommates.  WHAT?. I was speechless.

Luckily my bedroom is large and comfortable.  I enjoy the quiet time with myself.

I guess I am rambling on.  At this time I try and not respond when she verbally attacks me or others close to me.  At times I do lose it and yell back.  I need guidance as I think my silence does not help the whole situation but I also know if I say something ( ie. if I were to ask how she is she would respond what the F do you care and then commence on a tirade, I will be attacked...

Thanks

[formflier]

I'm so sorry you are in a tough spot.  Very confusing I'm sure.

I'm an ambassador here and I can help you get settled in with a group that can help you sort out this confusing relationship.

 Please look to the right and click on "choosing a path".  Spend some time reading and make notes about what sticks out to you.  Post questions.

Come back often and see what we have to say. 

There are things we can teach you that will improve your relationship (we use shorthand r/s), even if your wife doesn't want it to get better?

How does that sound?

FF

[Mutt]

Hi oinoxrn,

At this time I try and not respond when she verbally attacks me or others close to me.  At times I do lose it and yell back.  I need guidance as I think my silence does not help the whole situation but I also know if I say something ( ie. if I were to ask how she is she would respond what the F do you care and then commence on a tirade, I will be attacked...

I’d like to join formflyer and welcome you to the family. I’m glad that you have found us.

You have the other idea with not JADE’ing (Justify Argue Defend or Explain ) I’d tweak your formula a little bit you don’t want to live in survival mode and live through the motions everyday as you said that’s pretty stressful.

You also did the right think with reaching out to others like you in a similar situation. As you know a pwBPD have mostly negative feedback about the people that they love it’s not realistic and it causes a lot of anxiety with walking on eggshells around a pwBPD. Do you have family and friends that you can visit instead of going I to your room? Do you have hobbies? It helps to change your environment when she’s on the attack like that go out for a walk, go run an errand, go to the gym etc... .

I’ll leave with a suggestion to a book that will give you strategies when you live with someone with BPD.

Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist, Margalis Fjelstad, PhD, LMFT

[oinoxn]

So many things go on that I forget them and/or loose track of them.  After reading the topics on the right I remembered I forgot to mention that 2 or three weeks ago when she was yelling that my father ( to whom I was very close and died at age 95 in Sept 2015) was  an A hole and I was just like him and calling my daughter a B she said I can move out.  Angered, I said she can move and she said no way.  I made the mistake of saying what I had been thinking for some time, that when our landlord puts the house up for sale we can go our separate ways.

At my age I am conflicted as to whether to leave or stay.   I won't even let her know I am using this site or let her see I am reading "Stop Walking On Eggshells" for fear of the rage I will endure.  I cannot bring any of this that goes on between us up because it is all my fault and escalates her anger.  I understand I cause a good portion of the problem because I don't always agree and truthfully give my opinion when asked.  Many years ago when we went to counseling in what turned out to be our last session the counselor said to me as I walked out the door that I would never be able to do enough.  She walked out of a session with another counselor, never to return.  I feel I obviously have a problem living like this all these years.

I do get out of the house to read, go to movies, Costco, etc for several hours a day.  Of course she thinks I am meeting women. Like there are all kinds of women looking for a 70 year old at the snack bar where I read.  I have become friends with the owner who is 28 but we talk politics, stock market, family (he has problems too).

I don't see my wife ever changing since she can't acknowledge to me she is also part of the problem and wants to work on improving things.   We like to travel and have been to Europe over 20 times for 3-4 weeks at a time. I won't do that with her anymore because they threatened to turn the plane around if she didn't settle down (they don't put up with unruly in business class).  

As you can tell I don't know whether I am coming or going.  I am enjoying living in silence as it beats yelling and raging.

Last night (after messaging me in the afternoon to get a divorce and verbally saying it.earlier in the week) and telling me to go to hell she wrote that I don't deserve her but she will always love me. She will always remember the good things I have done.  Then minutes later messaged she cannot let me hurt her anymore, our marriage is over.   I have not responded.  I can no longer take the roller coaster life.  At least if she is mad at me it is constant and consistent  and I can keep my distance as opposed to her being nice for a day or an hour until I say something wrong and then back to name calling, yelling and raging.  

I would like to improve our relationship but doesn't it take two? Probably like many, she is two people but I see the less desirable one too much of the time.  I am losing self respect from allowing myself to be treated this way so for me I feel it is better to retreat and hunker down at this time.  If I were to respond to her message and say I have never stopped loving her I would get a demeaning and attacking response. Guess I am in survival mode.

How do I set this up to know if anyone responds to me?

Thanks

[Mutt]

Hi oinoxn,



When someone posts a new response it will send an email to your inbox, the email address that you registered with on the site, there will be a link in that email that that is specifically for new responses, click or press that link and that will take you to the latest response in your discussion...

I understand I cause a good portion of the problem because I don't always agree and truthfully give my opinion when asked.

You’re correct that it takes too although she has social impairments she still has a responsibility to get help for herself and to take care of herself.

You’re mature by taking ownership of your part of the r/s if she wants to blame shift and is emotionally immature then don’t take the lions share of the blame.

There are only two things that we can control how we act and react feelings are not managed by others it is self management. You’re not responsible for someone else’s feelings.

You have a right to feel the way that you do and you have a right to your own opinion. A r/s is complicated we’ll walk with you while you process those feelings... There’s no rush.

[oinoxn]

Thanks.  I must be doing something wrong. I was not notified of your reply.

[oinoxn]

Something just happened that I want to know how to respond to.  Do I start a new thread or just post here?

[Mutt]

I’d kept it in this discussion for now

[formflier]

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

We'll help you get all the technology stuff sorted out and we'll help you understand some concepts.  Concepts that may make you go... .yeah... .but... .

Sort of like "yeah, but... .don't both of us have to want to improve in order to improve the relationship?"

You know, I remember when the above statement made intuitive sense to me.  I mean... really... if two people are in a relationship... of course both have to work at improvement, otherwise it's a waste of time... .

Well... .I'm happy to tell you that YOU and only YOU can make drastic changes to your relationship, even if your wife has no interest at all.

I would encourage you to focus on learning some concepts for a week or two before trying to implement.  Some of it can be a bit counter-intuitive.  

Alas... .that is the world of people with a PD (personality disorder).  "Standard reasoning" sometimes doesn't work.  Then... ."poof"... .the regular person shows up and you have a completely normal day... .perfectly reasonable.  Then... ."poof"... .the mad crank shows back up... demanding that YOU divorce her (ever note how they won't do things for themselves?)

Seriously... .take note of the demand to be served.  We will teach you to use that to your advantage.

Now... .none of us are going to be able to tell you to stay or to go.  That's going to be up to you.  I hope you will agree, it will be easier to sort out the future of the relationship without so much drama going on.

Thoughts?

FF

[oinoxn]

Thanks FF

Can you suggest some learning concepts for me?   What are the drastic changes I can make myself?  What do you mean re "the demand to be served (divorce papers?)?".   How do I use it to my advantage.   If I say I am going to an attorney she will say something like FU or some derogatory remark.   If you read my original post you know that I did file for divorce in 2016 and she moved 500 miles away but I foolishly acquiesced and allowed her back into the house  because I knew she had no family or friends there (and know but for her PBD she is a good person).

 I have never mentioned PBD to her.  She thinks she is bi-polar and probable is too.

The other day she said too much light was coming into her bedroom (I could relate) so I bought her a new shade and wrote a note not to touch it as it will fall.  I put it up temporarily and suggested she see if she liked it or wanted the old one.  Yesterday I messaged (I try not talk to her because it will result in yelling or some verbal abuse) her which shade does she want.  She said she would have a friend take care of it.

This morning she says she could not get the shade to work.  I told her that I said it was there for a trial basis.  She asked if I would put it up so it would work.  I said yes.  She asked if it would take long.  I said I have to drill some holes so it will take a little time.  She said why didnt I tell her before that I had to drill because she put all her stuff away.   She said there will be dust from drilling so she has to move her stuff away again but cant because her left hand hurts (said I broke it thursday night).  I said I guess it would hurt.  She said shut up.  I said nothing.  She eventually left, hopefully for the day.

How does one handle a situation like this morning?   When she comes home neither will probably say anything to each other.  That is my safe mode.

[formflier]

Demand to be served as in you cater to my wishes (not served in the legal sense).

Although you can see it in the example of her yelling and demanding that YOU divorce her, vice her just keeping her mouth shut and doing it.

See how she wants to be upset, hand you responsibility for doing things, and guess what... .if you actually divorced her... .do you think she would agree that she was the one that "demanded it"?

You know she would "flip" the story and still be the victim.


Look to the right... .read choosing a path.

https://bpdfamily.com/deciding_guide/00.htm

There is a link... .just in case that helps.

Expect to spend a week or so just sucking up knowledge here.  Much of the important stuff is going to seem "odd" at first.

It's sort of going to be like learning a foreign language.

FF

[Jeffree]

How does one handle a situation like this morning?

 

Oinoxn,

I, too, am an ambassador here and would love to help you gain the insight to be able to enjoy the rest of your life.

I must say that when I was in the thick of my marriage with an uBPD, I used to think that this was no way for me to be spending my golden years... .and I am 20 years younger than you. It sucked and there was no end to it in sight, and I could just feel life passing me by in this miserable state.

What you have shared here is so familiar to me, and even makes me hurt inside for you. I know what it's like to only want to do what's best for my SO, only to have every one of my efforts sh1tted on.

I am writing this from MY relatively new office space I made for myself after my STBx moved out. We had made this space into her office originally, but OF COURSE, it wasn't good enough for her to actually use as her office after we painted it and furnished it. It was too cold in the fall and winter for her and too hot in the summer. Meanwhile, I am just fine in it right now and love it. I have made it my space to enjoy.

I used to handle the situation you laid out exactly how you are handling it... .by avoiding her as much as I can... .and hoping she will leave. I also stopped being nice. I wasn't an a$$hole, but stopped doing all those little things I thought would stop her from complaining. Yet she never did.

I got lucky... .she left back on Aug 1.

Have you thought to ask her to leave?

I am so sorry you are in this predicament. You seem like a really nice guy who'd do anything for your wife. I am sorry she is being so cruddy to you.

J

[oinoxn]

I have asked her to leave.  She is tired of having to move and I stay put.
No way will our landlord let her stay if I move.  He won't talk to her.   I think she may think she can live with me when divorced.

I put the shade up in her room while being verbally abused and not responding... She was telling me to get a divorce and she is going to date (best news in a long time).  I did tell her to get a divorce and She said she can't afford it.   Been there done that with her and after spending 10's of $1000's (never wanted to add it up) she fired her atty when we pretty much had an agreement.  That was at the end of 2016 and then I let her move back.

So they have any smidgen of an idea how badly they treat some people or are they totally clueless?

Did your wife work?. Mine never could.  Too stressful.

[formflier]

My wife now works full time.  I'm sort of a stay at home dad/small business owner/mba student (it's complicated)

Consistent application of "tools and rules" has helped calm things.

I'm curious why you do things for her when she is verbally abusive?  Why even listen to it at all?

FF

[oinoxn]

I guess I am use to it.  I don't always continur when being abused.  I suppose I should be more consistent and if I am doing something for her I should stop (and maybe leave the house) whatever I was doing  if she gets verbally abusive.   My fault for not being consistent.  One fear I have is if she figures out I leave the house when she acts up she may use that as a control tool to get me out of the house.

When this happens and I stop doing whatever I am doing for her do you suggrest I do it another day or not at all?. Example is the TV. She can't get WiFi signal back on if it disconnects.  Even a bit difficult for me as it is a genius tv

[Jeffree]

So they have any smidgen of an idea how badly they treat some people or are they totally clueless?

I wouldn't say totally clueless, but they are definitely not in the business of taking responsibility for their actions. I think that the guilt shows up in a very deep recess of their soul, hence the constant state of misery they live in. But they have to jump through logical hoops to feel as good as they can about themselves and typically default to blaming others for their misery.

Did your wife work?. Mine never could.  Too stressful.

Mine does at a job that doesn't require day-to-day accountability to the same people. She's an outside sales rep, so she can make a good, false impression for 20 mins and is on to the next customer.

J

[formflier]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Look over these articles.  What themes do you find about consistency?

FF

[oinoxn]

I always use to say no way when she asked for a dog.  I said nothing when she told me during the week that she was getting a dog on Sunday. I think she expected me to say no and argue.  Today said getting dog. I said just know landlord can evict us or her if he doesn't want a dog here.  She said she will ask him.  When I asked if she called she said no because I made her afraid of him.

She messaged me: " Stop playing games.  You're an old man.  We are not happy.  We have never been happy.  We can be happy with other people maybe.  Give us a chance for happiness.  You want peace and quiet.  That will never happen.  I can't stand to be around you after everything you've done yo hurt me.  You don't want me.  You resent me.  You never stop hurting me. Put your energy into your daughter.  You like her.  Be with your family.  I was never your family.  You get up and leave, say nothing, you're indifferent and you enjoy the power ( she is referring to this evening when asked me to sit and said wants divorce, not happy, can't afford atty so I need to do it. I nodded and got up and went upstairs).  :)on't you see how awful this is?"

 I have not responded. I get the feeling that not arguing and responding is bothering her as she continues to sending messages.  She keeps messaging  I should get the divorce.

 I feel like saying if she really wants a divorce tell me how much she needs to live on each month and then find a place to live because the  landlord will not let her live here.  She will probably say or yell she is not moving I am.

[Turkish]

oinoxn,

Have you had a chance to look at the lessons in the right side bar?

It's a lot of material,  but it may help you step back and give you tools to help reduce conflict.  

The most basic tool is here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

There is a discussion at the end in the Read More link.  

Divorce or not, reducing conflict will help no matter what the path turns out to be.  The tools helped me given my dissolution with kids.  Take a look and tell us what you think.  

T

[oinoxn]

T

When I click on the link it says page not found.

[Turkish]

My bad (I messed up a paste on my tablet) Try this: https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

[formflier]

There is no reason to respond to texts or emails like that.

Perhaps later, once you gain some skill you can respond in a healthy or validating way, but lets worry about that... .later.

FF

[oinoxn]

Do you really see how being nasty, invalidating, or critical toward your partner, no matter what she or he just did; will only make your relationship worse?

Yes I do.  I have not been responding.  If I do respond I get attacked and if I don't I get attacked or the number of attacks or sarcastic remarks increase.  I don't consider this an attack but last night she asked if I would take the trash out.  I said sure.  She said "yeah, like you ever take out the trash.

Lately I rarely talk to her as it always ends up yelling I am an ass or similar stuff.  I do message her, at least it is a quiet form of abuse when she attacks in writing. Plus I don't read most of it when I realize she is in attack mode.

How do you stop the bleeding when dealing with someone that says  FU when you say hello or I am leaving ( the house for a bit)?

I think I am getting immune to her same triggers. I don't respond at all.  If I did, no matter how validating it will cause a verbal attack.  she messaged that I have never wanted her to be happy.  I messaged that I can see why she would feel like that. She replied I am a bully, get a divorce, she will find a man that will sleep in the same bed as her.  Mind you, Saturday she messaged she will always love me because of all the good things I did ( that thought lasted a minute) but she can't let me hurt her anymore and the marriage is over.  

Rather, this is an example of a couple working together - they both agree to work on these issues independently and together

.

How do you do this when one says over and over to get a divorce?

She messaged this last night,: I'm going to be the wonderful lady that a guy has been waiting for.  That's my hope.  I don't want to be alone.  But it finally dawned on me.  I don't have to be alone.  I look nice, I know a lot of stuff and you said I was easy to talk to.  So I'm hopeful.  I know I'm old but older people find happiness too.  So will you. The very worst thing of all is after all these years and all the money you have you refuse to give me the security and peace of mind that I'm taken care of under any circumstances, I mean any circumstances if anything were to happen to you, sick, dementia, coma, anything.  We are getting older everyday, anything can happen,  anything.  So everything I've tried to do for you, everything I've tried to do for you was nothing to you, nothing to you.  I never knew you thought I was nothing to you, did nothing for you, I thought over the years I did. That's why I can't be with you anymore.  I can see now that I meant nothing to you.  You keep,saying you're leaving me a lot of money when you're dead.  But you will not explain why you're not taking care of me if you were very sick and someone had to take over the bills.  My bills aren't paid.    That is the most hurtful thing you have ever done to me.  When I see your face, I feel you are a very bad man who used me.  You don't love me.  You would never do this to your daughter because you love her.  You don't love me.  I regret knowing you and trying so hard over the years.  In return you made sure I don't have security and peace if mind that I'm taken care of under any circumstances.  You really are a bad man.  You don't have me anymore.

She had pointed out my trust only gave her money when I die and she did not want my daughter involved in administering the trust when my daughter is 45 (32 now).  I was considering some changes and then the verbal attacks and yelling intensified and eventually telling me to divorce.  Call me a ass, etc so I decided why change the trust when she keeps telling me to divorce.

You can see I am not very good at this.

[Jeffree]

You can see I am not very good at this.


I don't know anybody who is. Nor do I know how one can be good at it.

May I ask... .where did she learn that this is how to treat your spouse?

I'm not being sarcastic or passive aggressive in asking. I am curious as to where she gets this kind of behavior from? Was she severely abused by her parent(s)? Is someone of importance in her life a loudmouthed so and so?

J

[oinoxn]

She has never said this but I suspect her mother was something like this.  Did not have many friends and no filter.   My wife mentioned when her mother was living with her she kind of banged the door down to get into my wife's room.

So how do I stop the bleeding when all she wants to do is attack or talk about me getting a divorce. If I said I love her, care about her, etc. it would set off a tirade of verbal abuse and yelling. 

Am I doing the right thing by staying silent and not responding to anything (except requests to help with something).  If I say anything it ends up in an arguement.

Am I the only one that feels they have to write this where she can't see me and hide the fact I read books on BPD?

[Jeffree]

So how do I stop the bleeding when all she wants to do is attack or talk about me getting a divorce.

I don't know. I've probably missed it here, as confusing as this all is, but why not put the financial parameters of a divorce settlement in front of her?

You can let her know what she's legally entitled to, then also layout what you're willing to do above and beyond, if anything.

Yes. I know the problem is that she will read into this as some act of aggression that has to do with you not loving her, having someone else, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Well, it's time for her to grow up and take responsibility for herself and her actions. Nobody has a guarantee in life that they will be taken care of as they see fit.

J

[oinoxn]

She just mentioned divorce again so I asked if she thought the landlord would let her stay if I moved.  She said why not and I said he does not want to deal with you (because of past experiences with her). I get flummoxed at times but I think she may have said something to the effect that I would still be here.  I said why would I be here if we were divorced.  Think that one caught her by surprise.  I said she would not be able to stay here if I moved cuz the landlord would serve her with eviction notice when I notified him I was moving.  She said the day I move is the day she will move.

About an hour later outside of my room she says she saw something on the news About an hour later says outside my room something she saw on the news she thought would interest me.  First time civil in days. thought would interest me.  First time she has been civil in days.

I have asked her recently how much $$ she needs each month to live on.  She said she wants nothing.  Then I asked her again when she said get a divorce and yelled she wants everything I have.  Then yesterday she was back to nothing.  She gets $900 net a month from Social Security so nothing is not realistic.   I can pay what she needs but she won't tell me.  I don't know what she is legally entitled to as my income decreased in 2017 (don't know how much yet).

[formflier]

The discussion with her about the landlord is a reasonable one... .the thing I would want you to understand is for her, it's very likely divorce and any associated things are not about reason... .it's about strongly felt emotions... .emotions that are likely very uncomfortable for her.

So uncomfortable that she would rather "blame" other people for them, rather than taking ownership of the feelings herself.  

Also the chances you can explain this to her is about zero.  This is for your knowledge.  Please let a professional T explain the stuff to your wife (if that ever comes up).

The other thing about your wife's feelings... .they likely change rapidly and once they "flip" from one way to another (lets say happy to sad)... .she doesn't really remember all the happy or sad and the crazy things she may have said while in a different emotional state.

Listen:  Stop reasoning with your wife about unreasonable things... such as divorce.  

If YOU want a divorce... .don't discuss it with your wife.  Get a lawyer and divorce her.  :)one.

If YOU want to stay married and it bugs you to talk to your wife about getting divorced... .stop talking about it.  TOTALLY.

"I won't discuss this with you... ."  see... don't even mention the word divorce.  "I'll be back in 15 minutes and hopefully we can talk about something else."

Come back in 15 minutes (to keep abandonment fears down) and talk about the new fish place you have been talking about trying.  

Seriously... .don't give her crazy any attention whatsoever.

She "wants" your attention.  The is getting that attention in a dysfunctional way (divorce talk)... .so if you stop "giving her" what she is seeking, she will eventually try to get attention from you nicely.

When she does... .be pleasant.

Do you get the big picture?

When her mouth is nasty... your ears are gone!

When her mouth is nice... .be pleasant in return.

FF

[oinoxn]

FF

Very helpful and spot on.   

Today yelling so neighbors can hear about ED and yelling what her friends say about my looks.  No response from me.  Then after I blocked her on Messenger I am an ass, F head and idiot.  You’re right I barely hear it anymore.

When I go to the market I usually get something for her if she needs it or if I know she will eat it.  I am thinking this ass should stop doing that.  Your thoughts as I am sure she will verbally abuse me.

I assume you have concluded she would not consider therapy because I have the problem.

[Jeffree]

Today yelling so neighbors can hear about ED

Which to certain people might be about her looks and demeanor rather than you. If you could get excited being with someone like her, you're a better man than I. 

Therapy? With her? Go for yourself. Get clarity. Be heard. Get yourself some support and insights.

J