Trying to get answers and help for an ex and myself

[seenbetterdays]

I have known this person since 2011 after being honorably discharged from the Army and we were best friends for awhile. We started dating in 2015 where the relationship was toxic to me and eventually to her. No matter what I did or said I could not get to her understand that her actions were toxic and a violation of my personal boundary limits. Eventually, I ended up breaking up with her due to them, where she promptly started to tell people about how badly I treated her, with no admission to her own personal fault. Those people included family and friends which effectively cut my support structure down substantially. Fast forward to July of 2017 when we ran into one another and she "seemed" a changed individual. She was talking about God and as I had recently re-connected with my faith. I had forgiven her for her transgressions, and we decided to try it one more time. What I failed to be made aware of was that during our time apart she had been participating in self-destructive behavior such as using severe depression and drinking to get drunk while on them, and to include an affair with a married co-worker of hers. Needless to say, once I was made aware of such things I attempted to talk to her about her unhealthy habits. Fast forward to just a month ago where after numerous lies and violations of personal limits/boundaries I finally sat down with her parents and aired it all out in an attempt to garnish more support. This promptly led to uncovering another truth that had been kept hidden, threats of "being done with the relationship" and wanting to leave, claiming to be "emotionally numb", and not wanting to continue the relationship. I am unsure as to if this is the correct place or even the correct way to address this, but I am at my wits end here. Thank you for taking the time to read this "word vomit", and any assistance into this would be greatly appreciated. There are other aspects of the relationship that I haven't shared due to their sensitive nature and only having so many characters to work with.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi seenbetterdays and welcome to the board!

Those are difficult revelations to process especially since you went back into this relationship with the belief that she had made changes since the last time you were together. How did her parents react to your talk with them? Could you share more about which personal limits and boundaries you feel have been violated?

In the meantime, I suggest you read through the stories and workshops on the board to find some common ground and context for what's been happening in your relationship, especially if you're new to BPD. This is definitely the right place if you are looking for resources to better understand and navigate this intense kind of relationship. 
 

[Radcliff]

Hello seenbetterdays,

Like RolandOfEld, I think it would be helpful for us to better understand what aspects of her behavior weren't working for you.

Answers to a few more questions would help us with context.  How is she acting with you now?  How much time do you spend together?  Are you living together or apart?

WW

[seenbetterdays]

During the course of the relationship the first time, she had friends that were swingers and while possessive of me and any woman that "looked my way" she went to a lunch at a hotel restaurant and the female of the swinger relationship caressed her inner thigh, tried to get her to go upstairs with them, and she acted like nothing had happened; when I confronted her about it she got very defensive and angry stating that she did no wrong. Then I caught her hiding that she would be up until 3 or 4 am texting "guy friends"; when confronting her about it she became very angry and accused me of "invading her privacy" and "that she had done no wrong". She eventually moved up to where I lived, I was using her laptop for job hunting as mine had crashed, and I see an email come in from her brother that was sexually explicit and fantasizing in nature. This was the second email of this nature from him. I confronted her about it and again she accused me of invading her privacy and that she wanted to leave. Regardless of whether or not I was standing there just saying "talk to me and help me understand". The relationship became very toxic after that with constant threats of leaving from her, me telling her if she wanted to go then just leave, and constant denials that she had done anything wrong. It ended with us breaking up obviously and her telling everyone what a jerk I was, how controlling I am, and that I was crazy.

Fast forward to when we rekindled, she had an affair with a co-worker at her previous job. When she told me that I was obviously shocked and disappointed as this was behavior out of norms. When she told me she kept saying that she just wanted to leave and that "it wouldn't work", "he said he and his wife were separated and he was gonna leave her", etc. While I said that it was wrong of him to do that, she was also in the wrong because she knew he was married and still living in the house with his wife. I then asked her to give me an overview of the relationship dynamics between them so as I could make an informed decision on whether or not this would work for me. She stated what she "claimed to be the whole story" and I decided to give it a shot as it wasn't that bad. Then throughout the course of the relationship, I caught her numerous lies concerning that relationship, while she worked still at that job and after at her new one. Every single time a lie was found it was always "you hate me", "I can't do this anymore", "I want to leave", and "you would be so much better off if I leave". I repeatedly told her that all I wanted was her honesty and to be able to trust what she is saying is the truth.

The lies, constant threats of leaving, and anger at me when I did nothing wrong baffles me in those matters. My personal limits and boundaries that I feel were violated were being in a relationship where the other continuously lies and hides things, blames the other for their wrongdoing, and doesn't apologize or try to mend fences until a verbal "knockdown drag-out fight" has occurred and the other person literally has to say "you have yet to even apologize to me for this". Since the night we broke up she has "ghosted", telling people again how much of a jerk and controlling I am, and even though I let her stay for free here during that time. The only communication I have with her now is due to the fact that I did let her stay here free during that time and I attempted to explain to her that I incurred extra expenses while she was here, bill wise, and that it would be the emotionally mature thing to do to repay me considering everything.

Her parents were aghast at many of the things she had done (e.g. doing cocaine, drinking so much especially while on medications, the lies, the swinging, and the things she did in the relationship). Her dad actually looked at me and said: "you are doing pretty good if you can put up with all that and still keep going".

[seenbetterdays]

Obviously, there is a pattern here; once is just circumstantial whereas twice a pattern starts to emerge. In hindsight, I should have realized this long before that emotionally healthy people do not lie and manipulate like she did with threats of leaving, suicide, and not accepting responsibility for their choices and actions. I am trying to figure out the best way to bring it up to her and other individuals such as her family members so that way she can get the help she needs. I can process and deal with this on my own and have started making better life decisions myself over the past couple of yrs, but the urge to try and get her to seek help is killing me inside due to we did at one time have what I would call an intensely emotional and intimate connection, one of friendship and romance. When I read "stop walking on eggshells" it made me physically ill from reading our relationship unfold from a book that was written years before these events occurred. I know you can't fix a person, it has to come from within them, but she is going to therapy, supposedly, but I am unsure as to if the therapist is qualified for this type of issue and the therapist can't if they aren't aware of it at all.

[Radcliff]

seenbetterdays,

I can hear you struggling with that urge to help her control her unhealthy behaviors, which is countered by your understanding that she has to take responsibility for herself.   This is an epic struggle that many of us here face.

How is she acting with you this week?  How much time do you spend together?  Are you living together or apart?

WW

[seenbetterdays]

Wentworth,

She is not talking to me and hasn't really in 2 weeks. We do not live together anymore. The night I found out another lie, I asked her for time to process yet another violation of personal boundaries, she then asked "when I wanted her out by", the rest of that night and the next day she just kept repeating that she was done and wanted out of the relationship, I asked her if she truly wanted out and she said yes so I could finally be happy, so I packed her things for her to pick up. I then didn't hear from her for almost 3 weeks, and it was due to my initiating contact asking about her financial responsibility she had made to pay me back for letting her stay here for 5 out of 6 months rent and bill free. (Which when I think about it it was odd to me because there was no real communication on the repayment, yet she claimed that she agreed to pay a certain amount each month until it was paid off... .I have no recollection of that conversation at all though. We discussed that she would pay back an amount, and that was it.) Since then it has degraded down to her "wanting to contact a lawyer" due to her not wanting to pay her half of the utility bills during that time frame. Am I wrong in assuming that since those utility bills were increased due to her residence here, that she should, in fact, pay them, or is she just being vengeful, shameful, and internalizing things and lashing out at me indirectly?

[Mutt]

Hi seenbetterdays,



Id like to join the others and welcome you to the site. I’m glad that you have found us. You have knowledge on BPD, a pwBPD have social impairments, i completely agree with you that she should be helping herself get better and as you say it’s up to that person. We can’t control what others do we can only control ourselves.

I understand how frustrating that must feel when your trying to make things work and nothing seems to move forward, it’s like your stuck or sinking in quicksand. Have thought about taking the lead or coaching? What I mean is the non has to change, when you change everything changes. Have you thought about accepting for who she is today and not what she could be in the future? What if she doesn’t change?

[seenbetterdays]

Thank you Mutt. I have accepted her for what she is and am in the process of trying to learn more, talk to psychologist friends to understand better and also not have an unvalidated diagnosis/accusation from a previously amorous individual, and am letting go. While I do truly care for her and love her still, I have to come to terms that she and I are simply not compatible in any capacity as long as she cannot seek help or be reached. Last time we broke up it took us accidentally running into one another 9 months later for that to happen. She is prideful, stubborn, and has self denial of the such that I have never encountered before. She will validate via emotions and re-create events in her mind to suit that emotion. I grew up in a home with a manipulative and deceitful mother and was also abandoned by my biological father. I have worked through all of that, so what happened truly cut me to my core, and then to have my family turned against me and think I was crazy really really made an impact and re-opened old wounds. I honestly was reading the book and questioned every single one of the questions in it concerning if you might possibly have BP and honestly haven't stopped since then. But on the same token, I was talking to a friend and was telling her that "I was reading the events of our relationship verbatim in a book that was written years prior to it". I just want to be a good friend to her like I used to be and help her get the help she needs to cope with this in order for her to be as happy as she can be. I know it may sound terrible and I feel horrible saying it, but I have to be honest on that front.

[Radcliff]

seenbetterdays,

I think you are going to need to decide whether the relationship or the bills are a higher priority.

Am I correct in reading your last post, that you want to avoid pursuing a romantic relationship with her, and are just hoping now that you can be a good friend and she can get help?

WW

[seenbetterdays]

Wentworth,

At this point, I do not think a friendship is even salvageable anymore from her standpoint. She has begun the devaluation and slandering stages with intent to move out of the state, she has a history of running away from problems habitually in her past. In the research, I have conducted it has always repeated that while you cannot change the person, you can hold them accountable; for some reason, finances are one of the areas she is very high functioning in. When we made the decision that she would move into my house we made a deal that she could live here as long as she continued to work on herself and stop lying. I upheld my end of the deal, but she failed to uphold hers. If it were a couple hundred I would let it slide and chalk it up as a loss, but when we are talking thousands of dollars it becomes a different issue. At first, it honestly felt like I was conned and used, until I started reading and researching BP.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi seenbetterdays, thanks for elaborating. It sounds like you're trying to parse the truths of your relationship in the newly acquired context of BPD, determine the best thing to do for both of you, and use that as base to resolve any outstanding details, like the rent. Does that hit it?

Rent issue aside, how are you coping emotionally from the fallout of this relationship and what kind of resources do you feel you need to move forward? I ask is since that's where I think the board can be of the most help. BPD relationships, whether we are still in or or getting over one, come with a lot of chaos and it's easy to lose ourselves in the midst of it.

For me, I've found incredible support here by reading other's stories, practicing the skills in the workshops, and engaging with other member's posts. Like Mutt wrote, "When you change everything changes." Before you try to find help for your friend, which she may or may not accept, you might want to spend some time understanding your part in things. That's what I'm working on right now since my wife seeking help still seems far on the horizon.   

[formflier]

seenbetterdays,

  and thank you for your service in the Army.  I'm retired Navy.   What did you do in the Army?

Listen, you certainly have a handful of a relationship to deal with and learn about.  You seem to be able to observe and report on what they are doing... but not quite grasp why, or perhaps you find it exasperating.  (completely understandable).

Very much like someone could go to a foreign country and report back what they are doing and saying, yet not quite "get it".  I would hope you can look at learning about BPD from that perspective. 

It would be helpful to us to know if you want to improve you relationship and possibly get back together romantically or if you would like "something else". 

Note:  "I haven't got a clue what I want" is a fine answer as well... .  Trust me... we've all be there.

Looking forward to learning your story.  Keep up the good work with coming back often and posting! 

FF

[seenbetterdays]

Roland,

That pretty much covers the situation. Emotionally I am hurt, angry, sad, and lonely; however, I am processing everything, changing habits and routines, meeting new people, and trying to gather closure on my own. With the way she is acting (ghosting and such), I realize that closure isn't going to be able to come from her, but from within.

[seenbetterdays]

Formflier,

Thank you and thank you for your service as well ya pirate! Lol. I was a weapons tech, anything from the 9mm up to the Abrams tank turret I took apart, fixed, and ensured it went bang or boom. What about you?

I honestly have no idea what it is that I am looking for. On one hand, when you truly love someone it is hard to let go; on the other, one person can be toxic to the other. As an old Army vet, it is hard to not fight back when she is in her "rages". I put that in quotations due to it not so much being rage, but more emotional abuse, self-denial, and talks about how mean or unwarranted my being upset, mad, or disappointed is and accusations of being judged, wrongly accused herself, etc. My family believes I must have something wrong with me due to my military service with 3 deployments to Iraq, and therefore it is me that is the problem; however, they still think I am the 20 yr old party animal that I used to be. I may drink, but I rarely get drunk; also, nights I do drink then I may get done with half a beer and then promptly pass out from being so relaxed. Party animal I tell ya! Lol. Anyways, I digress, while a romantic relationship is appealing, I do not believe that is possible with the persons we are. We share a lot in common and those that we don't I try to still participate in with her (e.g. I am an introvert and like to stay home, she is an extrovert and likes to travel); however, it is hard to combat the depression acquired from being with her and having all this turmoil and still happily participate in activities I want to do let alone things she wants to do, and also be intimate with her.

[formflier]

 What about you?

Naval Aviator.  Flew off carriers for about half my career and then "expeditionary" for last half, land based stuff in central and south america.  I loved the experience, I'm so glad I did it and also glad it's over and I'm moving on with my life... .no conflict there... .with me anyway.

I honestly have no idea what it is that I am looking for.

Pretty much what I figured... .and 100% normal for someone at your stage in going "What the heck over"?  (did you do much radio comms?)  It's like having your most important team mate send you radio traffic one minute that is spot on and then "poof"... .complete garbage comes across and your hear her calling in rounds on YOUR posit... .scarey a$$ sh$t... .right?  

As an old Army vet, it is hard to not fight back when she is in her "rages".

I agree... .100%.  Military types know that reality matters... what actually was said, seen and done could be a life and death matter.  When people are flippant with reality... we react as we are trained.  Heads up... .that's something we're going to work on... .it will take a bit... ok?

My family believes I must have something wrong with me due to my military service with 3 deployments to Iraq, and therefore it is me that is the problem; however, they still think I am the 20 yr old party animal that I used to be.

Listen... long term thought to reflect on.  Move away from your "armorer fixer" mentality.  "this is broken or it's not".  I want you to shift to "going back to school" mode to "improve skills" (not fix).  Much of what we will teach you is counter-intuitive.  Especially for vets.  Hang with us for a while.  Be open and call us out that it doesn't make sense.  I get it... .it doesn't.  It will... .just hang with us for a bit.

The skills we teach will help you with everyone, not just pwBPD.  As vets (especially combat vets), we have a unique experience that most don't get.  It's not a right or wrong thing... it just is.  

For now, I'd suggest you spend another week or so on "bettering".  Personally, I don't spend much time over here, but your story caught my eye.  After you learn a few lessons I think you'll have a better idea of where you feel "at home".

  FF

[Jeffree]

On one hand, when you truly love someone it is hard to let go

This is surely true.

However, I have to ask... .are you in love with her as she is now, OR are you in love with the person she was when you first met or first reunited after the first big break up, or who you think she really is deep down inside, or who you think she can become, etc.?

Sometimes we stay stuck loving the person they never were, or they aren't anymore, or the person we think they can become, yet they keep treating us in a way that we truly wouldn't love if that's who they really are.

Sometimes we stay stuck trying to get them to see that being with us and receiving our support is the best thing for them. Unfortunately, they just might not want that, even if it would be in their best interest. Likewise, we actually forget our own best interests in our attempts to get them to safety.

J

[seenbetterdays]

Formflier,

I concur that it was a great experience and I am really happy I did it because I truly found myself there after losing myself to it a bit. There were some rough times, I lost myself and my faith to it all, but after getting out in 2011 it gave me time to heal and examine exactly what happened, why, and who I am. To this day I am a very strong advocate for those that are defenseless and have been treated unjustly.

"Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?" Honestly, that is exactly how I feel a lot of the time. How can someone claim to "love me" and then do this, why are they doing this, what did I do to deserve this, etc. Last time this happened it almost drove me crazy trying to figure it all out. I literally walked into a shrink's office vibrating from all the energy coursing through my body.

I tried to take a calm approach as much as possible in the beginning and not fight back; however, once you reach a certain point it is seriously hard to keep it contained anymore. I would try to walk away, but she would follow; I knew if I left to get away for a bit then all her things and she would be gone when I got back; and we could never rationally talk about any issues of hers due to her constantly saying "I need a break" every 5 mins (she has a bachelors in psychology herself) which left nothing getting resolved either.

I don't think she is broken and needing fixed honestly. I think she has developed unhealthy coping defense mechanisms over the years, I think she doesn't understand half of what she does or why, and on the same token I think she denies most of it to herself in such a fashion that she convinces herself she feels this way about it so it must have happened this way (validation on emotions rather than facts and spinning the facts to fit). I don't blame her for it, she just needs help trying to find better skills and ways so that way she can maybe cope and gain control over it is all.

[formflier]

"Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?" Honestly, that is exactly how I feel a lot of the time. 

You get it... .  For now, I want you to stick with the radio traffic analogy when you communicate with her.

Not sure how the Army taught it... .but I was big on THINK... .CLICK... .SPEAK... .unclick.  I do remember when that didn't seem natural.  Most people "click, think and then speak"  usually with a big pause there in the middle. 

pwBPD make us so dang crazy we "click, speak... .(and instead of thinking were are like What the heck... )" 

Does that analogy work for you?  I need YOU to slow down, especially with her and spend time thinking, perhaps even "reflecting", before you dare even click (open your mouth), let alone let sound come out. 

a quick bit of FF "word for word"

her:  "blah blah blah, there is a pink unicorn in the yard, you hate me, I will ruin your life, now get over here and give me a massage, you'll never leave me... will you?  blah blah blah"  (am I close to how it really is?)

SBD:  neutral to friendly voice... perhaps even soft "Oh goodness... what?  This sounds important to you can you slow down a bit so I can catch up.  I'm ready to listen now."  (perhaps lean in a bit)

I won't get into explaining why that is good right now... .how does my proposed response strike you?  How would you feel if someone said it to you. 

Last (for now):  Make sure you find and keep a sense of humor.  Most military guys are good at that, especially when getting a sh$tty deal.  Like movies?

https://youtu.be/_ManqKgHTGE

This is your last chance.  Which pill will you take?     

FF

[seenbetterdays]

Formflier,

Could you pick a movie where he doesn't die in the end? Lol. I prefer life and not dying. 

I have started doing that quite a bit lately, and also trying more empathy than usual. However, conversations literally are essentially one-word responses between us for the most part or silence, like I sent her an email stating she had mail here yesterday and nada. I think the most I have gotten out of her was either a justification why she couldn't do something that was simple to accomplish and understand. Like she agreed to pay back the money spent by me while she was staying here. I finally calculated the bills during that period and she stated "that she would only pay $100-$200 a month" whereas now she is paying $400 a month. I asked her why that was and told her that I wasn't fond of dragging this out longer than needed but also understood that if it created a financial hardship I wasn't unwilling to compromise or negotiate. She literally clammed up and is now "going to talk to an attorney" about the matter. I don't understand that one still to this day. The only thing I could think of was that she is trying to drag it out to cause connection and pain. I am unsure as to if that is true or not, but nothing I have thought of makes sense to me on the matter.

[seenbetterdays]

Jeffree,

I am sorry it took so long to get back to you on your questions. I can say that I do actually love her for her because I haven't stopped just because she did things that I did not like and consider a violation of personal limits/boundaries, not to mention self-destructive to her own self. I still care about her and want her to seek the help needed to become better. I understand that with quite a few there is no "cure" for this and they will always be like that, but it can be managed and coped with in a healthy manner by all parties involved, myself and others included. My caring for her isn't conditional based on how she treats me or if we are in a relationship or not. It is constant and never-ending.

[formflier]

The only thing I could think of was that she is trying to drag it out to cause connection and pain. I am unsure as to if that is true or not, but nothing I have thought of makes sense to me on the matter.

Right... that's how we would think.  Part of the pill taking is understanding it's not about "rational thought".  Feelings come before facts, she will organize her facts to match her feelings, pretty much shift her worldview.

her feelings change and "poof"... .her worldview changes.  She likely has the vaguest idea that she thought you were an ahole (or a saint) just a day or two ago. 

Please don't personalize any of this.  It's about her and her feelings....

What are the implications of this? 

FF

[seenbetterdays]

Formflier,

I do not understand your question. What are the implications of my rational thought, or of her points of view changing due to her emotions and not taking it personally?

I have continued to ask her why the sudden change, and to communicate with me about it so I can better understand it; however, I have received nothing but silence from her. Even when I told her she had mail here yesterday that was a shot reminder for her dog and a pay stub from her company. I am just continuing to try and be as nice and civil as possible while informing her that I care about her health and safety, and will support her and help her in any way I can. Also, I am trying to discretely and as gently as possible hold her accountable for her actions in all of this.

[formflier]

I do not understand your question. What are the implications of my rational thought, or of her AND  her points of view changing due to her emotions and  (YOU) not taking it personally?

 

Hopefully this clarifies the question a bit.  All of these things are true.

I was were you were once... .I get it... .hard to "walk a mile in her shoes".  Would you want to be her?

FF

[seenbetterdays]

Formflier,

Ok, I get it now, I think. At first, I will freely admit I took it heck of personally because I literally was like What the heck? Like when she started going silent about paying back, it was before finding BP, I was of the mind of "Who does she think she is to treat me so bad, take advantage of me, and then not even have the decency to repay it or gripe about having to do so? What is wrong with her?" Now I am like, "ok there is some underlying issue here that hasn't been thought of or discovered", "maybe she feels ashamed that she can't and is taking out her frustration on me", "maybe her mindset has changed to where I am a jerk and an ahole and she is trying to set personal boundaries or something", etc.

Is that what you meant? I still haven't been able to think of the reason and like I said she has gone totally silent with thinking I am a jerk, so I cannot really do anything about it. I am thinking it is a way for her to have some form of control in her personal life, but am unsure.

[formflier]

  I am thinking it is a way for her to have some form of control in her personal life, but am unsure.

Control over what?   You are so close... .   

[seenbetterdays]

Control over me?

[formflier]

Control over me?

So... this is all reading tea leaves, but it is likely she struggles to control her emotions (at least in a functional or healthy way).  So, pwBPD (people with BPD) do wacky things to "self-sooth".  Since they usually blame others they many times "project" their emotions onto other people.

Then... .if other people "have" their emotions because they have "projected" them, other people need to be controlled... to control their own emotions.

Right... .I get it you are likely saying... "do what?" 

Also know that pwBPD are unlikely to understand what they are doing (at least without a lot of therapy and self reflection). 

They think they are normal and you are crazy...

How does all that sound?  Can you follow the path of control?

FF

[seenbetterdays]

It makes sense in a weird way... .

I honestly can't follow that type of subtle control tactic due to its unhealthy nature. All I can do is be a good friend and keep assuring her that when she is done "raging" at me, done with the slander campaign, and devaluing me during this low period that I will be here if she needs to talk as a friend and nothing more. Not to judge at all, but help her make sense of it all and support her in healthy ways and advice no matter what.

Did I pass? LOL

[formflier]

Did I pass? LOL

Close...

Your communication style is too "direct".  Skip the "military"  front assault tactics.  Start thinking about "flanking" maneuvers.  Think about "psy ops" where there is some diversionary communication tactics.

So... .don't directly say those things to her

"blah blah blah rage rage"

softly... friendly... "Hey... .I'm available to talk more when these harsh words aren't between us.  I'll check back in 10 minutes."

Look at that for a minute.  You are setting a boundary that you don't talk to people that yell at you.  You aren't directly "accusing" her of yelling, you are letting her know why you are leaving... .she will either figure it out or she won't.  You won't be yelled at.  You are also described the relationship as "us" and you are identifying what is between you.  Leaving it up to her to connect the dots... .or not.

There is this thing called "abandonment fear" when you walk away.  By letting her know how long you will be gone, that fear may be less.

Whew... .! 

Do you miss your fellow soldiers that you can just say "dude... .shut up... .you are bugging me... " (or a more colorful version... ), yet the next day you are fast buds again.

FF