Two of the situations that I'm angry about are related because they both involve my church.

[BeagleGirl]

Concerning anger, I find that if you flip over the anger rock you often find that are you are hurt or wounded from a past event that comes out as anger in the present.

So I've been "camping out" on this anger topic for a few days and I think I may have spotted another breadcrumb, at least in one area of my anger (I have a few things that I'm angry about right now).

Two of the situations that I'm angry about are related because they both involve my church.  I think they are also related on another level, but I'll get to that in a bit. 

Situation 1:  Immediately after dBPDstbxh said he's done trying to fix the marriage and wants to move forward with divorce, he asked "Would you be willing to leave our church so it would be less awkward for me to keep attending there?"  While that spurs it's own little spark of anger, a follow up conversation we had last week is the bigger source of anger.  He let me know that he had told our pastor that we were getting a divorce and that he had asked me if I was willing to leave the church.  That happened over 2 weeks ago and I have heard NOTHING from my pastor. 

Situation 2:  I got a voicemail from one of the women in the church saying that our pastor has decided we need a focus on fellowship within our church so that we have a stronger sense of community as we try to minister to others outside the church.  She asked if she could come over for a 10-15 minute fellowship session.  The rest of the voicemail was her talking about how amazing the church service was and how God is moving in our church and miracles are happening... .So if I could call her back and set up a time soon that would be great because pastor had given her a list of people to fellowship with and it was going to be tight to get them all scheduled this week.  She called me two days ago.  If I had known it was her, I wouldn't have picked up.  I immediately told her that this week wasn't going to work for a "fellowship session" and to please move on with scheduling time with others on her list.  She then spent 10 minutes telling me (again) how wonderful the church service was, going into details about who said what and what happened next, and how God is really blessing our church, etc, etc, etc.  I kept looking for an opening to get her off the phone because I was getting angrier and angrier, but she was talking non-stop.  When she finally paused for breath I LIED and said I had another call coming in.  I wish I hadn't lied.  In that entire time, there was no question of "how are you?", and I honestly don't think I would have shared even if there was. 

Okay.  So I know this is supposed to lead me to my fear, but I'm still not quite there.  Instead, I'm realizing that in both of these situations I feel like I'm being told that I don't matter.  That my needs/pain need to be hidden away so that someone else's world will "look pretty".  And, yes, this is a message that I got as a child.  I'm a pastor's daughter, and keeping up appearances so as not to shame my dad has been a part of my life as long as I can remember.  So I guess the "little one" inside me is saying that I MATTER. 

I want my pastor to say "I heard that you have been asked if you would be willing to leave the church, and I want you to know that breaks my heart.  I want you to know that our church would suffer a loss if you left.  I know it will be awkward, and I'll understand if you want a fresh start, but I want to figure out how to keep you here, because this is your home and we are your family."

I want the woman in the church to shut up for a minute and say "How are you?  No, really.  How are you?  Is there a need in your life that you want to talk about?  Is there something that I can do for you?  I'm sorry you missed church last Sunday.  We miss you when you are gone."

Well, I have to stop crying and get back to work.  Just wanted to share what I'm uncovering in my "anger campsite".  Anyone else ready to share?

[Lucky Jim]

I'm realizing that in both of these situations I feel like I'm being told that I don't matter.  That my needs/pain need to be hidden away so that someone else's world will "look pretty".  And, yes, this is a message that I got as a child.  I'm a pastor's daughter, and keeping up appearances so as not to shame my dad has been a part of my life as long as I can remember.

Hey BG,  Right, underneath your anger is a hurt child.  Your task, I suggest, is to comfort that wounded child.

Rather than ruminating on what your Ex may or may not have said to your Pastor, which could be inaccurate, you might want to have a direct conversation with your Pastor.  It seems to me like you are expecting your Pastor to reach out to you even though you really don't know for sure what was said to him.  In other words, don't remain the victim here of what your stbEx may or may not have said.  Instead, you could opt for a proactive approach.

Keep us posted on your "camp-out"!

LJ

[Harley Quinn]

I want my pastor to say "I heard that you have been asked if you would be willing to leave the church, and I want you to know that breaks my heart.  I want you to know that our church would suffer a loss if you left.  I know it will be awkward, and I'll understand if you want a fresh start, but I want to figure out how to keep you here, because this is your home and we are your family."

I want the woman in the church to shut up for a minute and say "How are you?  No, really.  How are you?  Is there a need in your life that you want to talk about?  Is there something that I can do for you?  I'm sorry you missed church last Sunday.  We miss you when you are gone."

I think that your campsite is giving you a great deal of insight into your needs BG.  I know this hurts and is disappointing.  You DO matter.  Can you turn that knowledge into an action?  LJ suggests approaching the pastor, which is a good idea. 

How about situations like the one with the lady from church?  How can you comfort and validate your inner child at moments like that?       

[Skip]

I want my pastor to say "I heard that you have been asked if you would be willing to leave the church, and I want you to know that breaks my heart.  I want you to know that our church would suffer a loss if you left.  I know it will be awkward, and I'll understand if you want a fresh start, but I want to figure out how to keep you here, because this is your home and we are your family."

Practically speaking, you know he can't do this, ethically. He can't disclose what has been confided to him and, in fact, it may not have been confided to him. What he could do is advise your ex. It's hard to imagine that he would endorse such an idea.

If you go to him anbd ask, "should I leave", then he can counsel you.

And remember, he doesn't want to get into a drama triangle, and knows how to avoid that. He is most likely not going to mediate this for the two of you unless you both open the door for that.

I want the woman in the church to shut up for a minute and say "How are you?  No, really.  How are you?  Is there a need in your life that you want to talk about?  Is there something that I can do for you?  I'm sorry you missed church last Sunday.  We miss you when you are gone."

Was she doing a routine scheduling call? These types of tasks don't typically fall to the elders, the deacons or the Stephen Ministers. She might not be a confident counselor.

I imagine things would have shifted dramatically if you said "I'm really struggling with a church issue". If she couldn't handle it, she  would have gotten someone.

I think that you don't want to peg your worthiness to these incidents.

[Skip]

I lifted this from the authors video in your book discussion thread.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321109.0

When we have loss or struggle with a sense of direction in our lives it usually traces back to issues with our sense of worthiness. The foundation of our lives is built on a sense of worthiness. What we often do (beginning in childhood) once we loss our sense of worthiness and encounter shame is to say "what is inside of me isn't good enough and now I need to go outside of me and find something that will make me feel good enough". One of t he first places we look is relationships and our accomplishments (work). Many of us give in to the temptation of looking to our relationship partner to build and instill a sense of worthiness and but an enormous burden of them. And many of us delve into our work for the same reason.

Neither of these can restore our sense of worthiness. It has to come from within. ~ Kelly Flanagan, PhD (paraphrased) (Loveable: Embracing What Is Truest About You)

[BeagleGirl]

Thank you all.

I'm glad I've take the time to "camp" here.  In fact, I'm thinking I may roast some s'mores before I leave. 

My instinct reaction is to run away from the situation - leave the church and not deal with it.  Maybe intend to send a letter to the pastor later, expressing my hurt and trying to help him understand how he could have done better.  You know - not deal with it.

The good news is that dBPDstbxh and I both signed a document giving our pastor our agreement to discuss anything said between him and our spouse with the other, so I can get confirmation of whether dBPDstbx did, in fact, tell our pastor that he asked if I would be willing to leave.  Based on some previous interactions with my pastor and things he has discussed with my therapist (they got a similar release form that allows them to discuss anything said in their respective sessions with dBPDstbx or myself) I wouldn't be shocked if our pastor would welcome having one of us leave the church.

Regardless, I do know I want to explore these feelings a bit more before I speak with him, and I DO need to speak with him.  Thank you to those who gently pointed out that I'm positioning myself as a victim in a nice little drama triangle.

[MeandThee29]

I think that calling you and demanding a fellowship time is tacky. I'd tell her to back off and leave you alone. I have two elder's wives that periodically check in via text, but they're very low key and encouraging. If I tell them that I'm busy, they don't push.

[gotbushels]

Hi BeagleGirl   

Mmm s'mores sounds so good.   

My instinct reaction is to run away from the situation - leave the church and not deal with it. 

I understand this a little. When we feel like we're being used or people aren't meeting our needs, and we don't see an easy way to get out of the situation, then yes, pangs of irritation can cause some feelings of wanting to escape.

Situation 1:  ... .That happened over 2 weeks ago and I have heard NOTHING from my pastor. 

We're here to help--so I can see from this some frustration; if I expect someone to see something as highly important to me, yet I don't observe them doing something about it, then I might feel irritated. E.g., if I expect a manager to be majority responsible for spotting hiring and training gaps--then doesn't do something about it for half a year, then yes I'd feel a little irritated.

Situation 2:  ... .  When she finally paused for breath I LIED and said I had another call coming in.  I wish I hadn't lied.  In that entire time, there was no question of "how are you?", and I honestly don't think I would have shared even if there was. 

Sometimes when we lie--especially if we don't see any integrity-promoting way out of a situation--it can make us feel disappointed with how we behaved. I've done this lie-to-exit before, and I had a colleague to whom I was responsible for listening in on the call. "Wow gosh I wish I hadn't done that. Oh dear, I'm going to want to use myself as a negative example now."  :|

I felt embarrassed and a bit disappointed with how I handled things. So if I see that staying on the call is my only way forward--especially if I have other things I want to attend to--my resentment would probably build. I want to encourage you to see that you don't necessarily have to 100% perfect all the time, and that there's other ways you can get out of situations without waiting for it to irritate you into leaving. 

When I make calls to people, I try not to expect myself to read their minds and call at the perfect time--thus I won't expect a caller to read my mind either.

I hope this continues to develop positively for you.

[Moselle]

Beaglegirl,

So sorry to hear how insensitive your phone call was, and that you feel you are not getting support from your pastor.

If I could share a few thoughts, I hope they might be useful.

I've followed a number of "church" or religion based threads on the site over the years. And I also have my own church based experience, regarding how I've been treated.

There is one overwhelming theme, churches appear particularly poor at understanding these types of relationship breakups and reacting to the inevitable fallout.

I'm so glad you have started camping out  at bpdfamily. Here you can find that understanding and compassion you might be seeking and need.

The pastors and membership will likely get it wrong. I've found it helpful to radically accept this fact, and forgive them. Not only are they human, but they are not trained in this, nor are they adequately prepared.

Your stb ex has claimed this church as his, asking you to leave. Why am I not surprised?

As others have pointed out, it's probably a good time to do what is best for you and if attending different churches is important to him, perhaps someone should explain that he is free to find a new church.

Some questions you might want to ask yourself:
What is best for you? And then do whichever choice you make without a second thought, or reconsidering it)
What are your expectations of the church? Are they realistic given the counselling skills available there?
How can I communicate these expectations?

Ditto on the smores 

[Juan Pablo]

Beaglegirl

I am so sorry for what you are going through. It is hard enough to deal with a divorce and wounding from our pwBPD but to also not feel love and support from your church is very hurtful. I can relate to your situation so much. I have walked through something similar.

First, I am a PK as well so can relate directly with what that does to us growing up.

Since you had signed releases with you T and your pastor I can understand you feeling hurt. Even if there was a privacy issue there is nothing that prevents him from just reaching out to check on you and see how he can support you.  After all, he is supposed to be the shepherd of the flock.  One caviout here, you really don't know for sure what your husband did or didn't tell him.  Unless the pastor confirms it you only know what your husband said he told him.

During the four years I was with my uBPDw we moved to five different churches.  When she would go into a dysregulated state it was common for her to start a campaign against me and would go to the pastor and our friends. Not once in any but the last church did I have a pastor call and check on me or to get my story. I was treated like an outcast. There was one situation where I called the police because my uBPDw threatened suicide then took off in her car. I called my pastor left a message what happened, that I was afraid for her life and called the police.  He never called me back and the next Sunday no acknowledgement at all. Months later when my uBPDw was in a dysregulation and I went to a hotel I got a call from the pastor telling me that God was going to judge me someday and I was responsible for my wife. Then got onto to me for getting the police involved from that incident months before.    For a long time I was really bitter and angry about that. I wanted to call them up and just let them kmow what horrible shepherds they were.  I finally got to the point where I don't care what their opinion of me might be. If they don't care enough to bother getting to know me and seek the truth I don't want to waste my time in that church.  I will find somewhere where people will love me and embrace me.  That is what I did. 

Concerning the small group leader that called you. I understand your feeligs. I have been there. We are hurting and we would love for someone to just ask how we are and love on us. I have come to realize that many people don't have well developed skills. They don't mean to hurts us but they do. It can be really hard in the church because we do a great job of teaching people to put their church face on. Everybody pretends to be perfect and have it all together. Heaven forbid if anybody is honest and exposes some weakness they have. Well that starts the tongues wagging and of course they are added to the gossip chain, oops prayer chain.

I guess one question would be, do you want to stay in your church?  Do you feel connected there? Do you feel the pastor is a good shepherd? Are you okay with your husband trying to exert control over you by asking you to leave?

Prayerfully examine and do what is best for you. And then give yourself permission to love on yourself. You are worth it.

[Bo123]

BeagleGirl--So sorry to hear this, especially about a church. Deacons if you have them should be the 1st place to start and then more get involved, the asst pastor, pastor, it varies, but you have every right to worship where you want.  I didn't get every detail but solving it at a local level is best, keep going ang and in a month try again.  Major denominations have people of authority in regional or the particular religion has a headquarters or regional authority that you can call and nicely and w/o blaming ask for assistance w/o too much detail and they will usually come down and have a meeting.  Don't know if your church is a member of any of these organizations, but even independent baptists have resources so unless its just a off the wall name church associated with no one.  You have someone above looking after you and is by your side, arbitrated a few and your best bet is to be calm, polite, reasonable, don't raise your voice and keep going to church.  You have to stay straight and church is a good way to do it.  Stay strong, post, PM me if you need further advice on most churches process, I'd be glad to help.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi BG,

I understand why you feel hurt and are angry that your pastor did not communicate with you or try to find out if you are, in fact, leaving the church. Did it occur to you that maybe he does not even consider that you would agree to do that?

Situation 1:  Immediately after dBPDstbxh said he's done trying to fix the marriage and wants to move forward with divorce, he asked "Would you be willing to leave our church so it would be less awkward for me to keep attending there?"  While that spurs it's own little spark of anger, a follow up conversation we had last week is the bigger source of anger.  He let me know that he had told our pastor that we were getting a divorce and that he had asked me if I was willing to leave the church.  That happened over 2 weeks ago and I have heard NOTHING from my pastor. 

Situation 2:  I got a voicemail from one of the women in the church saying that our pastor has decided we need a focus on fellowship within our church so that we have a stronger sense of community as we try to minister to others outside the church.  She asked if she could come over for a 10-15 minute fellowship session.  The rest of the voicemail was her talking about how amazing the church service was and how God is moving in our church and miracles are happening... .So if I could call her back and set up a time soon that would be great because pastor had given her a list of people to fellowship with and it was going to be tight to get them all scheduled this week. 

If the pastor compiled the list for this woman, that means he put your name on the list. It sounds to me like he is not lending any credit to the notion that you might leave the church, or else he would not have put your name on there.

How would you have felt if you found out that a list had been compiled by the pastor and your name was absent from the list?

Just my thoughts.

Also, I found this while reading an article on Joyce Meyer's website:

"But Jesus [for His part] did not trust Himself to them, because He knew all [men]. And He did not need anyone to bear witness concerning man [needed no evidence from anyone about men], for He Himself knew what was in human nature... ." (John 2:24-25.)

Meyer makes the point that Jesus did not operate with the assumption that men would never disappoint Him. In fact, He knew they would. He knew Judas would betray Him. He knew Peter would deny Him. Yet He did not close off His heart to them.
Jesus forgives us our weaknesses, and extends grace and mercy when we disappoint Him. If we are to follow His example, then we must do the same.
Don't let a misunderstanding rob you of a church family. I would encourage you to speak to your pastor directly, as others have mentioned. Just because people don't meet our expectations does not mean they are uncaring, or indifferent. People are simply people, and we are all flawed and subject to making mistakes or disappointing others.

And you DO matter, Beagle Girl.

Blessings and peace to you,

Redeemed

[Turkish]

Does your pastor have training in counseling? Is there an attitude in general in your "tribe" or denomination, to reject psychology?

[BeagleGirl]

All,
    Thanks for your responses.  In answer to your questions:

My church is part of a global denomination and I'm very familiar with the hierarchy.  My dad pastored in this same denomination for most of my life and I've held elected positions in our local church.  The man responsible for the "zone" our local church is located in was our pastor when I first started attending this church and I would feel comfortable reaching out to him if I felt there was something seriously wrong going on.

My current senior pastor (SP) at my church was previously our youth pastor and then an associate pastor.  He's in his 30s.  We also have a part time associate pastor (AP) who was previously our senior pastor.  He's in his late 60s and easing into retirement.

SP has had a few counseling classes, but is not a licensed counselor.  His mother attends our church and is a licensed Biblical Christian counselor.  She is the counselor dBPDstbxh and I saw for counseling in the 6 months after I ended and confessed my affair.  We stopped seeing her after she had gone through the set counseling plan and found a different counselor when more problems were arising.  I wouldn't say that our church is "anti-psychology" but our SP and his mom hold the Bible as the "psychology text" that should be used.  While I believe in the divine inspiration and effectiveness of scripture, I feel more comfortable with a secularly trained psychologist who is a Christian and includes scripture and Christian writers in her approach to counseling.

I feel like I've worked through a lot of the anger around these situations and am in a better position to address them or not address them as appropriate. 

I'm letting go of the expectations and anger around the situation with the woman who called to schedule fellowship time with me.  I know her actions were well-intentioned.  I think they were a bit misguided, but I don't think I need to address with her. 

The situation with SP is still something I feel I do need to address and I'm seeking the best time and way to do so.  I talked with my counselor about what my goals would be in talking to him.  She's cautioning me to recognize my tendency to over function and avoid trying to "fix" this.  She's advising that I let this sit a bit longer and give things a chance to play out. 

I think the aspect I most want to take action on is to confirm that SP and AP have both been informed by dBPDstbxh that we are planning to divorce.  I am leaning towards not doing that until closer to the time when we will be telling our boys about the plans to divorce - currently looking like we will do that over S19's next school break (March 15-18) so that S14 has as much support as possible.  As the dust settles, I'd like to find out if S14 is comfortable staying at this church or if he might want a "fresh start" elsewhere.  I want to do this in a way that doesn't pressure him to make a decision or influence that decision with any thought of whether dad's staying and mom's leaving, or vice versa.  If it's what's best for S14, I'd like to believe that we can get through the awkwardness and all still attend the same church. 

The more difficult question for me is whether I can (or should) stay at a church where decisions made by and viewpoints expressed by SP are counter to what I believe.  None of these areas where I disagree with SP are "salvation issues" but they started before my marriage/separation/divorce were on that list and I'm struggling to maintain respect and an open heart for what he has to say.  Up until my separation church has been my family and a vital part of my life.  Since I left my husband I have continued to attend and serve, but it's not felt like a safe and loving place.  I want that aspect of my life to be restored, but I'm not sure if staying at this church is the right way to go about that restoration.  I don't want to take the easy way out and just go find a new church, but I also don't want to ignore signals that it's time to move on.  I don't want to remain quiet when I'm meant to speak, but I also don't want to speak when I'm meant to remain silent and let God change hearts.

I guess in many ways this decision holds a lot of the same questions and confusion that I faced when deciding whether to leave or stay with my husband.  What's best for our children?  What do I need to learn to tolerate?  What do I need to fix in myself?  What do I need to have boundaries to protect?  What do I ask another to change in the way they treat me?  What do I do when change is not evident?  What is the right thing to do?

Thanks for your responses.  As you can see, I'm still trying to figure this out.  In the meantime, I'm trying to keep my heart open to give and receive grace.
 

[Bo123]

If you want to stay, stay!  Period.  No politics involved.

[Jeffree]

It's time like these I am glad I grew up in the Bronx.

You don't want to know what I would be telling anyone who would even remotely suggest I needed to leave a place of worship I had been deeply involved with for many years.

Granted, I'd leave anyway, but on the way out I'd tell them all a thing or two in very colorful language.

Food for thought for when the high road seems to be the wrong road.

J

[BeagleGirl]

Granted, I'd leave anyway, but on the way out I'd tell them all a thing or two in very colorful language.

You mean something along the lines of "I'm going to march my burgundy shoes out that azure door, climb in my silver car and follow the buttercup yellow lines in the ebony asphalt to a church that wants me?

Sorry.  I couldn't resist.
BG

[Jeffree]

Clearly, you are also from the Bronx.

Pizza is a color.

J

[formflier]

BG,

My wife and I seem to have very different ideas about what is an appropriate church and appropriate involvement of church as an "authority" in our lives.  So, I totally relate to your words about there NOT being a salvation disagreement, but a pile of other disagreements seem to be getting in the way.

A few comments.  Please remember this is me... I'm on your side.

1.  The pastor.  If it was me, I would NOT have reached out to you.  I would have let this played out.  True, he has a paper saying he "can" reach out... .but I doubt you will say the paper "obligates" him to reach out and divulge a private conversation.  Especially when he is apparently not actively counseling you guys.

I'd say let the pastor off the hook for this one.  Spend your energy with your T examining why you feel it important for pastor to step in.  

2.  Also... .as long as you say you want to "camp out" with this (which I think is a good thing), I would ask your T for help challenging the thought your pastor is the one you are "really" mad at... .or... is the pastor "easier" to be mad at.  

Note:  I tread carefully here because one of the triggering things my BPDish wife does is explain to me I'm not "feeling" the right things.

Here is why I suggest you do this.  Personally... .when people "do" things to me and I feel a certain way, I was and still am confident that I am being "accurate" with my emotions.

I have found that when I end up mad because people DIDN'T DO things... .(some sort of omission)... .that my emotion was misplaced and I had some personal growth work to do.

It appears to me you are mad at your pastor because he DID NOT call you (communicate) when you thought he should.  :)o I have this right?

Have you considered that the conversation between your husband and pastor did not go as your husband related it... .and you are mad about something that didn't even happen.

Anyway... .in my personal growth in this area I've kinda come up with a checklist

1.  Is the  perceived omission worth clarifying?

If yes... .clarify (hopefully before getting too worked up) so that I have heard it "from the horses mouth" about what happened and why.  Then I work through my emotions with accurate facts.

If no... .then it's on me to grant "the benefit of the doubt" and move along.

I'll end by saying this is a productive place for you to camp out.  I still have my tent put up there in my life, and from time to time I work through things there.

Don't be surprised if this takes a while.

FF