Said no to another recycle

[empath]

Speck,

It's great to hear that your husband is wanting to pursue DBT. Do you wonder at his motivations to do so now? Would his doing so change things for you as far as detaching from the relationship goes?

I don't really wonder at his motivations; I haven't said anything about what type of therapy that he should find. He did this on his own, and he seemed pretty self-aware of what was going on. He just hasn't been able to figure out a way to stop it. I just encouraged him to be completely honest with his therapist about all the things.

He also had a copy of his quick reference DSM (from his degree program) in his stack of books - probably looking up the criteria for NPD. But BPD is in the personality disorder section and is another cluster B disorder. He may have seen that. I'm wondering how much he knows.

As far as the relationship goes, I think the form of our relationship probably still will have to change; there's been too much that has happened and trust that has been broken for me. At the same time, we have a d13, and he still wants to be around for her. I guess the answer is we'll see how this goes; we can't even have an in person conversation right now without him being triggered.

[formflier]

Toxic churches can amplify the toxicity in individuals. The good thing about h's former church was that they did something about the pastor. They tried to work it out with him, but he wasn't receptive. Then they took it to a higher level in the denomination. It's sad to see such a good community in such desolation afterwards, though.

I totally agree with the bold.  As you guys likely know... there are a variety of flavors of Baptist out there.

Personally... .I'm more of a cross between a "Southern" and "Cooperative".  I was raised "Southern" but after all the shenanigans at the convention years back... .have drifted more towards "cooperative".

Anyway... .I've spent time in two "regular" Baptist churchs and BPDish behavior was amped up in my wife/she seemed to camp out on more extreme views. 

Such as this morning... "churches are mostly filled with people that aren't saved... .true Christians"... .  Wow...  

 The old FF would have shot back... ."oh... so Christians don't go to church... ." 

I just sighed.

FF

[empath]

So... .can you give me your opinion on the differences in forgiveness and reconciliation and "forgiveness"?

Does that differ between an individual and and organization (church for example).

LOL. I had a long response, but my internet connection is being a bit wacky.

My opinion is that forgiveness is an individual process (or between the person and God) while reconciliation is a relational process.

Forgiveness involves releasing our hurt and need to exact revenge on another person. That doesn't mean that there are not consequences for the harm that a person has caused, but that there are limits. I also think that forgiveness involves having empathy for the other person who has hurt us.

Reconciliation is more about rebuilding a relationship after a breech. It requires turning toward relationship (repentance) and varies depending on the severity of the breech. Both parties would need to be willing to be reconciled.

As far as organizations as opposed to individuals, I think that sometimes, there are systemic policies and procedures that can be problems. I've had to address those issues in the past few years as well. There are also individuals who are in positions of authority who may have problems on an individual level that affect the organization.

[empath]

FIL has told my H that H can still be a Baptist pastor.    Unfortunately, he's probably right about that.

[formflier]

Yep... .we are tracking together on our opinions... .very similar.

Do you believe that your opinion is Bionically based?  I've scanned scripture... .forgiveness is more often mention than reconciliation... .but reconciliation is mentioned.  Although there are not lots of details.


Separate issue.  Ever heard of a teaching that says if you forgive someone you are agreeing to "never mention it again".  And perhaps add to that "if you mention the issue again... the "mentioner" is the sinner now"  I don't find any evidence of that in scripture... .but... .I've never had it explained to me where that comes from by those that say that kind of thing.

FF

[empath]

I thought we probably were of similar opinions.

I do think my opinion is Biblically based. The word translated 'forgive' in Greek indicates releasing, especially from debt, and there are several parables about it. Like much of Jesus' teaching, it is learning from the stories.

From what I understand, the separate issue of not mentioning an offense comes from several passages where God removes sin from us and doesn't remember it. Of course, that leaves out other passages where there are consequences for sins even after forgiveness is granted.

[Speck]

Hey, empath:

Thank you for your update! I just have some things to add:

I don't really wonder at his motivations; I haven't said anything about what type of therapy that he should find. He did this on his own, and he seemed pretty self-aware of what was going on.

Well, that sounds very positive!

I guess the answer is we'll see how this goes; we can't even have an in person conversation right now without him being triggered.

Gotcha... .perhaps Father Time will tell the tale. At any rate, I hope he's receptive to digging deep into his issues for his sake. It must really suck to have BPD. But, I also hope that it makes a difference to the family (you, d13) that he's pushing away.


-Speck

[empath]

I was talking with someone at my church this morning (she formerly attended h's church), and she was asking questions about some of the prayer requests that have been on h's former church's weekly prayer request email. H's needs and progress have been a point for prayer for the past month or so. She knew that he had moved out and now has a roommate from his former church and asked if the roommate was staying rent-free. I said no. The email also included a way to support the roommate through the church discretionary fund.

Right now, I hate the way all of this has played out. It has created a division between me and h's church clergy. I hate that I can't help the church when they need it.

[formflier]

Right now, I hate the way all of this has played out. It has created a division between me and h's church clergy. I hate that I can't help the church when they need it.

Can you be a bit more specific.

What exactly do you think you can do... .that you aren't being allowed to do?

FF

[empath]

I think I could provide some help with pastoral care for the congregation - something for which I have training and experience. However, I don't have the support of the clergy that are attached to the church. The congregation doesn't have a problem with me - and they haven't heard the "false narratives" that the former pastor and h were telling. They were inviting me to be more involved at the church while h's mentor was encouraging me to not be involved.