Reconciliation after violence?

[greenyard]

Hi,
I'm new here and this is my first post. I just came across this site last night after my sister (her exBF has serious BPD) suggested it.

My wife likely has BPD. We've been married for 8 years with no children. It has been a roller coaster with very much conflict. I suspected she was BPD back in November and discussed it at length with my therapist (who recommended I leave her). We're both very educated, physically healthy, and unique individuals in our 30s and we deeply love and admire each other, and we have amazing sex. All seems great on the surface and in public view except when in private she starts berating me and blaming me / raging over small slights (not taking pictures together, or a surprise visit by a friend, etc) - the conflicts happen regularly every other day. I have definietly been enabaling her behavior by not setting boundaries. I've become a door mat and have given up much of my personal interests (hobbies like racing, adventures, etc that are out of town) to "appease" her fears of me cheating (never did) or abandoning her.

In October 2017, the relationship turned to a real crises. There has been much violence, starting with destruction of a certain $5000 toy of mine, then all computers and cameras disappearing. This incident, although provoked by me being disrespectful, she raged for 4 hours and when I thought it was over at 2am, she got out of bed and took it out on my toys. This caused great shock and confusion to me. Several weeks later, we had a misunderstanding about our retirement funds, a gun was pointed at me and as punishment for "lying" about our retirement funds, she emptied out the joint bank account... .I moved out the next day (and took all the firearms apart and took the barrels and triggers with me).

Since then we have broken up and made up, repeating the recycle for 4 or 5 times now (including filing for divorce and canceling it). She does not want a divorce and wants things to work out. There has been almost a dozen times of assault usually in the form or grabbing or pulling my hair and holding it but occasionally some hitting. The physical injury has never been serious, but its always been very stressful and mentally shocking. Also, more high dollar items like laptops have been destroyed... .Of course the raging and bullying goes on almost daily.

The most recent violent episode was when we were in the car on the highway and she started hitting me causing the car to swerve and putting the general public at risk. When we got home, I forced her out of the car and drove off and filed a police report for the first time. This was a turning point, and she realized that she needed to get help and she actually scheduled an appoitment to see a therapist. I moved out again the next day and later that week filed for a protection order and had her kicked out of the house and cut all communication. I do not feel safe being in the same room with her alone and I cannot talk to her and not get sucked in to her spiraling arguments. She begged not to be kicked out and to have mercy and will do whatever it takes to save the relationship. After she was kicked out, I took possession of the house. In it I found letters and post-it notes all over the house, noting love, sweet memories, and pleas for mercy and forgiveness and willingness to try therapy. These letters are very poetic, and are pulling at my heart with great force. Tears flowed from my eyes for hours after reading them and I can't put them out of mind. This was last Saturday 3/10.

It wasn't until last night that I learned about how to learn skills to improve communication etc on this site and that there actually is hope for BPD. I'm at the point of emotional burnout and don't really feel like doing any repair work but I don't just want to give up yet - she's a rare find (the good part of her) and I have strong emotional attachments due to shared interests and colorful history. The surface of me just wants to focus on my job that pays me (I actually love my job), and do my favorite hobbies that I've neglected due to her "needs", but I don't want to throw away our unique and interesting history (the good parts).

I'd like to know if anyone here has experience recovering their marriage after violence and what their story is. Why was it worth recovering (specifically interested in stories from folks without children and did not do it for financial reasons)?

Or if you've been assaulted, and you left the relationship, even though there was willingness on the part of the BPD to get treatment, why did you leave anyway?

Thanks and I look forward to hearing from you!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi greenyard and welcome!   I'm sorry you've had such a rough time. A lot of us are in the same place as you and you will find a lot of caring support here.

I am currently in a very conflicted place after a lot of similar experiences, which I hope can be a helpful reference to you.

In the past month I have had several hundred dollars worth of clothing destroyed, been hit, been threatened, and watched my children get hit. I have called the police, resolved to get her to leave and keep the kids with me, spoken to a lawyer, found out it's not nearly as easy as I thought (I live in an Asian country with different laws), and decided to stay for now, all within the space of a few days.

You did the right thing to call the police and get the restraining order. You had to protect your safety first. There is no relationship to discuss if your very physical safety is at risk.

Following the advice of members here, I'm now working a two-sided strategy. On the optimistic side of things, I'm slowly, gently trying to coax my wife into a treatment program. I'm also going back into therapy to work on my boundary issues. On the preparing for the worst side of things, I'm documenting everything she does when emotionally dysregulating. If she hits me or the kids again, I'm going to get a doctor's report on it, video it if I can. I'm going to be ready for a legal confrontation if I decide I can't take it anymore and want the kids with me. Pray for rain, but dig a well, that's how I think about it.

I can totally relate to being at the point of emotional burnout, greenyard. So before focusing on your relationship, what are some things you can do to take care of yourself?

All the best,
~ROE        

[greenyard]

Thank you for the response RolandofEld. its good to know that i am not alone and there are many people facing similar challenges as myself.

Which Asian country are you located in if you don't mind sharing? I should say that I'm in the US of A.

That is good that you are trying to document everything. Try to record audio / video all the time and make sure you save it in the cloud with a very strong password - let your lawyer know it's address/password just in case. Some years ago, back in 2014, I started suspecting that something was not right with her so I started secretly recording our arguments (just audio), which is permissible by law here, with the intent of bringing them to a therapist. In 2015, she found the recording on my phone and destroyed the phone (dumb of me for not saving on the cloud). Since then, my phone and computer have been the target of her suspicion and I can never lock them.

Fast forward to 2017 crises, after she pointed a gun at me, I again started recording where possible and changed all computer passwords and locked my phone. Locking my phone has caused me to be physically abused on top of the raging demands. At times, my phone gets taken from me and I am barricaded in the house, and am assaulted emotionally / physically. Thinking about it makes me fearful and anxious. But I had to draw the line and set boundaries - NO ACCESS TO MY PHONE OR COMPUTER or EMAIL. It turns into more conflict and fabricated "betrayal".

Before all of this turmoil, I was a happy go lucky guy. I had great dream jobs (still do but I may be losing it due to low performance recently), and I've always been a high performer in life and very athletic achieving national level success (not making this up - I have a room full of awards and trophies). My wife used to enjoy going to those athletic events (and this was an initial attraction) but now all that success has stopped and she despises it when I pursue  those athletic events because I am not paying attention to her. I no longer enjoy her there with me. She is always following me around and critisizing me, and rages on me if I speak with any women (necessary discussion for business).

Its very sad to see her get kicked out of our house. She literally has no friends where we live - she has isolated herself by her own doing. Her family is 800 miles away. I hoped that when I kicked her out that she would return to her family, but she would not leave. She is now staying with some friends of friends of mine out of desperation and hope that I will take her back. I'm pretty sure if I ask her to get a thorough psych evaluation and specifically for BPD and get any treatment necessary, she will do it. But treatment for her, also means treatment for me and new skills and more effort. I fear that leaving her now, instead of later will allow her to go off into the world and destroy another unsuspecting good guy's world creating bad karma... .

The more I read this message board the more confused I feel about staying or going but I definitely am gaining more certainty that she has many of the BPD traits - there is no denying that - the patters are very clear and the arguments other folks have are very similar. In one hour I want to leave her due to the seemingly uphill battle and the sheer immaturity of emotional patterns... .Some hours later I find an article that gives me hope... .AARRGGHH - life choices. Why was it so easy to decide to marry her, but so hard to decide to leave her?

But the reality is, I want life to be easy. I don't know if I have anymore emotional energy to deal with her condition and find happiness. There are so many new skills that must be learned and constantly applied. I'm a pretty smart guy, but I'm also lazy as in, I don't like having to be on guard all the time. I want to be able to have a relaxed life at home and around friends, and apply my aggression at solving problems on my job, and my hobbies. Solving circular nonsensicle destructive relationship problems detracts from quality of life. I'm not even sure I'll ever feel safe around her again due to the gun being pointed at me 1 time. It is not uncommon for her to wake me up at 3am and rage on me for some "betrayal" or "lie" I committed. It's very shocking and disruptive.

For sure I do not want children with her, EVER. When I was younger, I always thought that I would have children at some point in life. In this relationship, we had conflicts in the 1st year, and I've been waiting for / trying for 8 years for it to get "better" but its not, its gotten much much worse, so we never had children. Now I'm not so sure I even want children with anyone and it saddens me somewhat.

Now, back to your question... .what am I doing that's not focused on the relationship to take care of myself? For starters I am going to hang out with my friends when I want to and how I want to. I am going to enjoy good food and beers with them. And I'm also going to get out and exercise for as long as I want to this weekend and try to not feel guilty about kicking her out.

Although I do need to decide what I want to do about the Restraining Order as we have a hearing late next week... .I'm sure I want to keep the no contact thing going for at least a full month, probably 2. Not so sure if I should let her back into the house or just let her fall wherever (hopefully go to her parents). She did move out literally, and took most of her furniture and things. I don't think it's nice of me to drag this out too long. She definitely does not want me to divorce her (not now at least)... .it has to be difficult to wait on someone to decide which direction your life will go in. It would be certainly easier for me to let go if she wants to let go. But being BPD, she is terrified of being abandoned even though shes very physically attractive and wont have an issue meeting a great new guy (sorry for that new guy). I think not letting her back in to the house will significantly reduce her hope of any reconciliation and she may give up and request a divorce.

Folks out there: please share your stories of reconciliation or leaving after violence... .

Thanks!

[Cat Familiar]

  I'm glad you're here, greenyard.

I was married to a man with BPD who was volatile, like your wife. Like you, I was blindsided when this behavior first emerged. When I first got together with him, he was kind and thoughtful. Then as time went on, the verbal abuse began, then the physical abuse. In between, the kind person reemerged and begged forgiveness, but then the cycle began again, and again, and again.

I'm sorry to say that you likely won't be able to only have the good side of your wife in the future: she is a package deal. Although with therapy, she might be able to control the abusive side, but that's questionable. For one, people with BPD are often not very compliant with therapy. They have such a deep seated sense of shame as well as they project their dark side upon others. Therapy requires admitting one's issues and that's really painful for them. Also they often feel everything is someone else's fault. That said, there are success stories when people with BPD do take responsibility for their feelings and make behavioral change.

As far as getting over the violence you've experienced, perhaps you're a better and stronger person than I. For me, it irreparably damaged my trust and love for my husband. I stayed with him for many years, hoping that things would be better. They improved somewhat at times, but his bad behavior reemerged again and again. I had drawn a line about any more physical violence directed against me and he knew that.

The end came one night when he threw something at me and then chased me down the driveway in the dark. For the first time ever, I yelled for help, which was unlikely because we lived in a rural area, but what was significant was that I found my voice. That night I slept in another room with a knife in my hand, vowing that I would fight to the death if he tried to assault me in my sleep. I can't tell you how out of character that is for me. I never want to hurt anyone; I feel guilty killing spiders.

Fortunately, he didn't bother me in my sleep. Otherwise I probably would have ended up in prison. I'm telling you this because being the repeated victim of violence can really change a person. There are many women, in particular, who are imprisoned because they finally snapped and attacked their chronic abuser.

I think men are even more vulnerable. If you were to raise your hand against her to protect yourself, you could very well end up in jail. Cops typically assume the man is the perpetrator.

You've got a lot to think about. You're young. You have expressed a desire for children in the past, but you don't feel that this relationship would be a welcoming one for them. Time passes quickly. I regret that I spent so many years hoping that my first marriage would be different than it was. I wish you well as you contemplate these decisions. I do think you've made some wise choices about giving yourself space and freedom to be yourself again.

[greenyard]

Thank you so much for all the responses. It is good to know that I am not alone in this and that there are others who experience what I am going through. It's good to know that I am not insane.

I hear what all of you are saying. I understand there are risks. I know what you mean by managing my feelings so that I'm not so close to the edge. She certainly has pushed me to a place where I started hurting myself (hitting my own head and running myself into the wall) because she would not stop the verbal abuse and would not let me leave the room (I actually have an audio recording of this). I will think about that risk more.

I should say that I have been seeing a LPC since late Oct to help guide me through this crises. It did not help to tell my wife that I was seeing her - it caused a lot of additional rage. My therapist, I would consider pretty forward thinking despite us being in a more rural area as she is a recent transplant from Boulder, CO. My therapist has been concerned for my safety and has continued to advise me to not co-habitate with my wife and suggest that I strongly consider other opportunities that will bring me joy and safety... .

By the way, what is the "pw" in "pwBPD" and u in uBPD? I'm at a loss here. Sorry newb question.

[greenyard]

Interesting advice. I really appreciate your perspective.

My T is quite experienced, I think 15 or so years. She has a Master degree. There are a few PhD folks in town that specialize in BPD and provide DBT but they are very difficult to schedule with due to demand I suppose.

I see my T once a week. I see her tomorrow afternoon.

My idea would be that you "offer" in writing to consider a future relationship with her based on her embracing a healthy future through therapy.  That you make it clear that successful therapy first... .consider relationship second.

No guarantees.

I will consider this suggestion. I don't want to lead her on. To be super clear, I'm 90% sure I just want to move on in life without her as I've had enough hardship the past 8 years being with her on top of my challenging childhood.

That said, as a compassionate person, I do want her to get treatment so the world can be a better place whether she is together with me or not.  So I will consider this.

The follow up question is then:
She has no support system where I live. No friends, no family. Her family is 800 miles away. Would it be better to send her back to her family? I think the only way she would stay in town would be for me to move out of the house (give it to her because it has a nice large yard / garden and that's her happy space) and rent a room somewhere, seriously limiting my access to my shop, tools, and toys. But it's certainly easier for me to find a place to live. Would you recommend I request her to stay with her family 800 miles away or should I give up the house to her or rent her an apartment locally? BTW, she has no job and wont get one because there is nothing interesting enough for her (honestly she needs to live closer to a big city to get a type of job that suits her bachelor of science degree).
 

[greenyard]

Thanks FF. I will take this to my T and we will talk about it tomorrow. This sounds like the right thing to do. It establishes clear boundaries, and allows myself to heal, and doesn't close the door on her immediately. I am not religious, but my friends that are, and whom helped her find a place to crash, are disappointed in me for kicking her out. My guess is that they don't understand the nature of BPD and how pwBPD are manipulative... .

I also need to to consult my attorney on timing of all of this and implications for divorce cool down period & finances should I decide to file for divorce (at fault / abuse). When an RO is in force or rather, more specifically, where there is abuse, here in my state, I can have the divorce cool down period waived. I don't know if this expires.

I'll let you know how it goes with my T.

[greenyard]

FF. Thanks for feedback. Scripture is noted.

I'm guessing as a secular person, I too should not feel guilty for kicking her out? I do get waves of it. The way I see it is that she has destroyed almost $10,000 in property, and cost me another $10,000 in legal fees for shenanigans. She does not work. I do. I also paid for her 2nd bachelor degree, which is a science degree but unused. On top of that, I do all the cooking at home but have to take regular beatings from her... .Then I run away for safety and have to pay someone else to rent a room. All this hard work and I don't get to enjoy the fruit of my labor? It makes me feel used... .Time for her to go and get her act together on her own.

[Radcliff]

greenyard,

I can relate to your experience, having recently gone through a situation with increasing violence and abuse that ended with a restraining order four months ago.  My story appears on this thread.

There are elements of your story that appear worse than mine.  The destruction of property for certain was worse.  My things were usually just hidden (wallet, cell phone, keys, work clothes).  The assaults you experienced may be worse as well.  In 15 months that I journaled, I was assaulted 35 times.  That included tackling, punching, tripping, biting, etc.  The control tactics were even worse, leaving me with no safe space at work, home, asleep, on the computer, in my phone, or even in my head.

When I served the restraining order, I had very clear intent to reconcile if it was possible.  In the weeks after the restraining order, my wife started DBT, and has been participating enthusiastically.  DBT is a fantastic program, and exactly the right tool for the job, but progress is slow.  She still does not take responsibility, and believes that I was abusive.  I am much less certain about continuing the marriage.

Let me say two main things to you now:
1.  Do not, under any circumstances, loosen any of the terms of the restraining order.  I felt incredibly guilty about booting my wife out of the home.  The guilt was worst in the first month.  Your risk has not even begun to reduce, and may even be worse.  Two key tenets of DV rehabilitation are that she needs to take full accountability for everything she has done, and demonstrate an appreciation for the harm caused to you.  She may never get there.  Expect real progress to take many months or longer.

2.  Your perspective will evolve over the next few months as you have safe space to think and process .  I can relate to everything you said about how much you've lost yourself, how it feels to have constant criticism.  You will reconnect with the old you, and it will help you think about where you want to go next.

There is much more to say, but I'll leave it at that for now.  Is your wife currently looking for DBT programs?  Very few therapists are prepared for the BPD/domestic violence combination.

WW

[RolandOfEld]

I'm a pretty smart guy, but I'm also lazy as in, I don't like having to be on guard all the time.

Hi greenyard. This isn't laziness. This is the Websters definition of what a relationship should be like. I have been very sad recently to realize that the place I am least safe is my own home. I had to hide my shoes, keys, wallet, phone, and stash extra clothes at work. Sometimes I had to wake up and sneak out to work at 5 am for fear she would sneak out first and leave me with the kids, forcing me to take leave. Afraid of being hit, of the kids being hit, or just of being emotionally tortured. Calling the cops seems to have bought me a measure of physical safety, but the emotional safety will never be there unless my wife gets help or I get packing. I hope I can at least know the answer to that question within this year.

Granted, the situation isn't nearly severe as yours was.

It's good you have a very clear picture of what you want. It will guide you where you want to go.

~ROE

[greenyard]

Thank you thank you thank you for the responses of encouragement. This really helps me improve my painful feelings of having kicked her out and of being in this situation. Many times I have felt like it is all my fault. For sure, the blame rages put me down and get to me. I'm feeling relief that it now has stopped with her gone and I seem to feel better day by day. I regret not doing this (Protective Order) sooner. I wish I found this website sooner... .I regret giving her 24 hours to pack her stuff and go because now she took many things from the house - the PO specifically prohibited her from possessing any firearms or ammo. I suspect she has part of the handgun and some ammo with her... .

The story on the handgun is this: The handgun is hers, I gave it to her as a gift 3 or 4 years ago on her birthday - until this recent crises, she was respectful of the gun and it stayed in our night stand and only came out when she took it for protection when going hunting (she hunts deer with a bow). Of course this crises occurs and the gun is pointed at me back in October. The next day while she was out shopping, the gun gets disassembled and I leave with the grip/trigger part and left her with the barrel/hammer part - this way she wound't feel threatened by me possessing all parts. Fast forward to more recent times around December, I gave her the gun grip back as a trust building exercise. Not too long after that, more physical abuse occurs multiple times but no gun involved. In late February, I think 2 weeks ago we tried to reconcile and line item 2 in the agreement was to keep the handgun disassembled. I took the grip/trigger, she kept the barrel/hammer again. We had another fight a few days after, where she assaulted me on the highway, and after getting home I tried to leave her for good (again) - she begged and I stayed. It was stupid of me to just keep the gun grip in my backpack (backpack in my car) and not hand it over to my friend as quickly as possible (as I intended). Well, guess what? The next day, Monday 3/5, while I was in the shower, she found my hidden keys (they weren't hidden well), and she went to the car and took out the handgun grip from my backpack and took possession of my car (I drive the nicer car that she is always jealous of). I packed my bags and went to work in her car, grabbed my spare keys from my office desk and went back home and retook possession of my car. Later that day, I found the handgun grip in my car under the seat. This shocked me and I couldn't come home after that. I gave the handgun grip to a friend, then confronted my wife (on the phone) about her action of taking the gun grip from my backpack and how that was not a peaceful gesture and extremely concerning to me. She responded to me that she just wanted to have possession of her things, just like how I wanted possession of my toys and that I am a hypocrite for not letting her have her things - I knew this discussion and where it was going - I drew the line - there is no negotiation on safety - I want safety first above all else - I hung up on her and did not come home and cut all communication so I could clear my head. The thoughts of her chaos bothered me more and more. By Thursday afternoon, 3/8, I couldn't take it anymore so I filed the protective order and had the hearing Friday morning. She was server a few hours later. Keeping a good journal with clear details since October really helped me to write a clear affidavit. The judge signed the order in 5 minutes without a word from me.  

Now, on to my regret of not having her kicked out immediately upon getting served: When I got home, I could not find the case, and in it 3 loaded ammo clips and gun barrel. I've been searching through the house for 3 days for all parts to the gun. Last night I only found the box case and 2 ammo magazines clips with ammo in them. I suspect that she took with her the barrel/hammer mechanism of the handgun along with 1 ammo magazine. I do not feel unsafe at this moment, but her shenanigans are literally that, games, that erode at my patience and are bad signs that she intends to better herself and seek peace a peaceful life. The PO specifically prohibits all forms of communication except through my lawyer. My lawyer confronted her about the missing gun parts on Monday and Tuesday but she said they were in the garage. Indeed the case and 2 ammo clips were in the garage, but no barrel and not 3rd ammo clip. I've given her until this evening to tell me exactly where the barrel and 3rd ammo clip is located and if she does not comply I will report it to the police - I'm wondering if I should just report it now (will likely result in her getting arrested and legal ramification that are extremely difficult to reverse).  

1.  Do not, under any circumstances, loosen any of the terms of the restraining order.  I felt incredibly guilty about booting my wife out of the home.  The guilt was worst in the first month.  Your risk has not even begun to reduce, and may even be worse.  Two key tenets of DV rehabilitation are that she needs to take full accountability for everything she has done, and demonstrate an appreciation for the harm caused to you.  She may never get there.  Expect real progress to take many months or longer.

I have a hearing on Friday 3/23. I am trying to avoid the hearing to save money but I need to provide her with terms. If she agrees, we can get it in writing and have the judge sign it without grandios hearing. Anyway, I think you are right in keeping her booted from the house and I will keep the 300 foot restraining order. Other items up for discussion are:
1. financial support: She had around $20K in her bank before she emptied the joint account of $8k back in October. I don't feel like I need to give her any considering I pay all the bills. But if she is out on her own, she will have bills if she stays locally. On the other hand, if she goes back to her family, she will not have bills except for gasoline and food. Wondering if I should offer any support here or just hold tight onto my wallet.
2. communication: this talking through lawyer thing is a pain in the ass and certainly costs me money (and I'm running out of it) and pretty soon will need to tap into my 401K/IRA as my savings are already depleted. For sure I want to keep up the no calling thing because I cannot handle the emotional tugs of her voice. Perhaps open up to business only email? No text, and no emotional content. Just business like: finances, where stuff is, where she is so I can forward mail, make sure medical bills are paid.

Is your wife currently looking for DBT programs?  Very few therapists are prepared for the BPD/domestic violence combination.

I do not know. Her psychologist has a PhD. My wife just started working with the psychologist last week via skype, I have the psychologist's name but the credentials are quite fresh, just started practice in 2015. The psychologist is probably younger than both of us. Judging from the psychologist's webpage and her profile on psychologytoday.com she does not do DBT. I have brought up DBT and BPD to my wife, but she responds with anger and blows it off. After one of our crises, when she's all exhausted, I usually can connect with her better, I've tried to sit her down to just read the symptoms of BPD and basic concepts of DBT but she refuses to listen or read about it. Certainly she is in denial. She has only admitted to having bad anxiety issues and strongly believes its related to a possible thyroid issues (which is known to cause anxiety and panic attacks if untreated). But aspects of her philosophy of life contains conflict, punishment, and even when anxiety is absent, she is very difficult to communicate with (arguments grounded in feelings / sophistry and not grounded in facts). Anyway, I will try what FF suggested and see if we can get our therapists to connect. If that is not permitted, then there's the answer. I likely will not hang on much longer after that. But as you said, I will focus on me and finding my happiness from here on out.

[Red5]

It wasn't until last night that I learned about how to learn skills to improve communication etc on this site and that there actually is hope for BPD. I'm at the point of emotional burnout and don't really feel like doing any repair work but I don't just want to give up yet - she's a rare find (the good part of her) and I have strong emotional attachments due to shared interests and colorful history. The surface of me just wants to focus on my job that pays me (I actually love my job), and do my favorite hobbies that I've neglected due to her "needs", but I don't want to throw away our unique and interesting history (the good parts).

Hello greenyard, and welcome!

You have found a good and safe place to come and vent, and as well learn,

Wow!… insert Red5 in place of greenyard into your post, and it’s like reading my own first post over a year ago now, almost all is uncannily familiar & similar… wow!

What you will learn, as you read more and more about borderline personality disorder (BPD), is that sometimes the disorders come in clusters… as your significant other may well exhibit traits of other disorders simultaneously along with what you may suspect is BPD, such as narcissistic personality disorder (npd), of histrionic personality disorder (hpd)… there are many terms, and explanations to describe what is going on in your relationship in real time, I encourage you to learn all you can about this, and it will enable you to better navigate through this labyrinth of emotional mine fields that you now find yourself in.

There are are a few up front that may help you immediately, one is called “justify, argue, defend, and explain” ie’ JADE…  DON’T DO THIS… basically this is what we do when we get into a fight, one or the other fights to get to the top of the “I’m right, and you’re not” mountain... and from there the battle rages on all sides, and it can escalate into the use of “nuclear options”… resultant in all kinds of conflagration, destruction, and unbridled violence in the extreme effort to “win” the fight/argument, to include smashing things, calling the cops, kicking in doors, and hands on fist to cuffs… NOT good… don’t do that !

There are lots of links here on this site as it looks like you have already discovered... .and good!… use the “tools” to communicate with your wife… Just don’t fight with her anymore… learn all you can, and “stand down” for a while…

This BPD phenomenon is a tough one Brother, not at all easy to live with, I may suggest that you try to find out more about your wife’s history, but be careful in what you ask, and only let her set the pace of that, I think, that much of this BPD behavior is due to some kind of trauma, either in early childhood, or else later in adulthood, almost like post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)… as in these woman, and men too, went through something, bad stuff, and it triggered something deep inside their psychology, that prevents them from processing their inner emotions (ie’ anger) properly, we see it all the time every day in our society, ie’ road rage, or anger displayed in a drive through when the clerk got your order wrong, violence of all kinds rather unexplained as to why…  un-natural display, and uncontrolled display of anger at others over seemingly insignificant issues, I call this acting out.

Yes, knowledge is power, so learn all you can about this,

There is a you.tube channel, a certain lady therapist, her name is Kris Godinez, you should check that out… Ashley Berges has a good you.tube channel, her video on “are you married to a person with BPD” is a pretty good listen too… and as well glean every bit of information you can from this site as well… it will help you immensely.

Best of luck, and take care of yourself, and let us all know how you are doing,

Hang in there greenyard,

Red5

[Radcliff]

greenyard,

I'm getting a little dizzy trying to track all the gun parts, and it sounds like you are, too.  Let's just assume that she has at least one working firearm, and a crossbow.  Does that sound like a reasonable assumption for the purposes of keeping you safe?

Your suggestion for "business only" e-mail contact sounded reasonable.  I agree that voice and text are way to likely to lead to emotional stress and other troubles.  That has been my experience in my situation.

It sounds like what you are talking about to avoid a hearing is something called a "stipulation" negotiated between you and her.  There's a lot of opportunity to get yourself in trouble here.  I've negotiated a lot of contracts for work, and even with that experience realized that without a good lawyer by my side, it was possible to give away too much, fail to see how something could pan out in the future, etc.  It took both the lawyer and me working together to do the stipulations.  One way to cut down costs is to write it up and have your lawyer check it over. 

I'm not telling you whether to stay or go, but since you're dealing with a lawyer and restraining orders, you need to quickly read the book, "Splitting," by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger.  It is specifically written about divorcing people with BPD, but even if you ultimately end up staying in the relationship, the part about finding a lawyer would be good to read.  Working with a combination of BPD and domestic violence requires a special lawyer.  What do you know about your lawyer's experience?  How has it been to work with him or her?

Please take the MOSAIC threat assessment survey and let us know your score.  I found that just going through the questions is educational.

Your risk level seems high.  Have you changed the locks on your house?  Are you varying your departure times and routes to and from work?

What's your relationship like with local law enforcement?  Now would be a good time to go visit the police station or sheriff's office and ask to talk to an officer or deputy for advice.  I'd try for a shift commander or similarly senior person if you can.  You want the folks who may be responding to your home to know that you are the reasonable party, and you want them to know that she likely has weapons.  Have you hand delivered a copy of the restraining order to the police/sheriff?

I like the idea of holding firm to her going to stay with her family.  Less expensive and safer for you.  I'd push that one with the court if need be.  How is your relationship with her family?  Are they a calming influence on her?

WW

[Radcliff]

Good comments, Red5!  Looks like we just cross-posted.

Here's the link on how not to JADE.  This is one of the skills I learned first, and got some really good payback on in terms of reducing conflict.  The first time I avoided JADEing, it was kind of funny, my wife was visibly thrown by the fact that I didn't fight back, and we actually had a laugh about it later.

Yes, trauma in the past is often associated with BPD.  But with weapons on the loose and emotions high, now is likely not the time to delve into her history.  Safety comes first.  The separation is important for greenyard to get some emotional distance and process things.  This is a good time for self-reflection.  The only two thoughts I have with respect to his wife are 1.  That she respect the restraining order and everyone stays safe, and 2.  If greenyard chooses, he could encourage and steer her towards DBT.  That has benefits for health and safety whether he leaves the marriage or stays. 

WW

[greenyard]

greenyard,

I'm getting a little dizzy trying to track all the gun parts, and it sounds like you are, too.  Let's just assume that she has at least one working firearm, and a crossbow.  Does that sound like a reasonable assumption for the purposes of keeping you safe?

Yes. She's got part of a gun, and a bow. Not good.

Your suggestion for "business only" e-mail contact sounded reasonable.  I agree that voice and text are way to likely to lead to emotional stress and other troubles.  That has been my experience in my situation.

Will do. Thanks for agreeing with me.

It sounds like what you are talking about to avoid a hearing is something called a "stipulation" negotiated between you and her.  There's a lot of opportunity to get yourself in trouble here.  I've negotiated a lot of contracts for work, and even with that experience realized that without a good lawyer by my side, it was possible to give away too much, fail to see how something could pan out in the future, etc.  It took both the lawyer and me working together to do the stipulations.  One way to cut down costs is to write it up and have your lawyer check it over. 

I'm not telling you whether to stay or go, but since you're dealing with a lawyer and restraining orders, you need to quickly read the book, "Splitting," by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger.  It is specifically written about divorcing people with BPD, but even if you ultimately end up staying in the relationship, the part about finding a lawyer would be good to read.  Working with a combination of BPD and domestic violence requires a special lawyer.  What do you know about your lawyer's experience?  How has it been to work with him or her?

This will be negotiaged by my lawyer. I tell him what I want and he'll work it out. So yes, the negotiation is not between her and I directly. I did read the book splitting back in December, audio version at 1.5 times speed. I probably should listen to it again. It is because of this book that I really started collecting evidence and keeping a close connection with my lawyer. My lawyer has practiced family law for 37 years in my town. He knows everyone really well. I like the guy too. Back in December when I initially filed for divorce, I asked for at fault based on abuse but he talked me out of it citing that its a real pain in the ass. But now I have multiple audio recordings of her abusing me physically so that might change things. Per your suggestion, I will talk to him about his experience in dealing with DV. I'm guessing based on his long term history in this town, he's seen it all.

Please take the MOSAIC threat assessment survey and let us know your score.  I found that just going through the questions is educational.
Your risk level seems high.  Have you changed the locks on your house?  Are you varying your departure times and routes to and from work?

I took the MOSAIC test back in December the day before filing for divorce and my score is 174 out of 200... .It was this score that tipped the balance and had me file for divorce. In retrospect, I should have started with a Protection Order.

I need to change the locks. I will do that today. I am varrying my departure times to/from work but starting next week I will be on strict shifts unfortunately and will be working 12 hours so there is not much room for adjustment. I will talk to my boss about the protective order and see if I can get an allowance. I already showed the protective order to HR. Fortunately where I work we have armed guards and secure gates. I feel that my work place is the safest place in town even though we do work that involves very hazardous and high energy operations.

What's your relationship like with local law enforcement?  Now would be a good time to go visit the police station or sheriff's office and ask to talk to an officer or deputy for advice.  I'd try for a shift commander or similarly senior person if you can.  You want the folks who may be responding to your home to know that you are the reasonable party, and you want them to know that she likely has weapons.  Have you hand delivered a copy of the restraining order to the police/sheriff?

Local LEO have been to the house 1x time after an assault - I called them to get my clothes but did not report the assault. I know one of the cops that came out quite well due to a previous unfortunate unrelated hit and run (someone hit my car). Cool nice guy. I actually will try to reach out to him and have a chat. I will get a copy of the restraining order and deliver to police.

I like the idea of holding firm to her going to stay with her family.  Less expensive and safer for you.  I'd push that one with the court if need be.  How is your relationship with her family?  Are they a calming influence on her?

Ok. Hopefully she will return to her family 800 mile away.
My relationship with her family is that they think I'm crazy. They also are prejudice / racist because I'm not white or christian. Are they a calming incluence? Not really. Early in our relationship, there was significant conflict between her and her mother. I wont get into all those details but basically the complaint from my wife was that her mother was very "controlling" and gave her panic attacks all the time... .The calming influence is when she is with her young toddler nephews. She looves them. They love her unconditionally and cuddle her all the time which is what my wife wants, all the time.

[Red5]

greenyard,

wow!... .your situation sounds a bit tenuous... .so please be careful !, and alert to what is going on around you, .it sounds like you have a good handle on things, but please just be careful, and have a contingency plan just in case you may become cornered or threatened.

I have been in your situation before myself, many years ago in my first marriage, not fun as I remember it,

We are here listening, and we are very sorry that you are going through this,

Hang in there !

Red5

[greenyard]

Thank you Red5, Wentworth, FF, and Roland for all the feedback. Super appreciate it.

I'm feeling much better today, lots of confidence. This morning I woke up not in a panic for the first time since I can't remember... .

Saw my T today and she is supportive of what FF suggested (letter suggesting T collaboration). We'll see how it goes.

Wow, it was a good day today. I can breath again, and actually appreciate the good weather, and celebrate pi day.

Happy Pi day for you math and science folks!

[greenyard]

she needs to take full accountability for everything she has done, and demonstrate an appreciation for the harm caused to you

Wentworth, what did you mean by this? Are you implying I pursue DV charges against her? I've been assaulted physically something like a dozen times. I've been barricaded and verbally assaulted countless times. Only the last physical assault incident did I report to the police and I did request that they do not press charges, if possible. I have yet to speak with the detective and give them more details... .I am expecting a call from them any day.

[greenyard]

A family member of mine (aunt/uncle generation) whom is a doctor practicing for 35 years, said that I should press charges... .That this is the only way to stop this behavior in the future... .This scares me... .

[Radcliff]

Hello greenyard,

No, I'm not linking accountability to criminal prosecution.  That can be part of it.  Accountability is often addressed as part of a batterer intervention program, typically a year long.  You probably want to ask the court to mandate that she attend one, even if you are getting divorced.  The intent is to get her to recognize and break the abusive patterns, so theoretically it can make you safer.  Success rates are low, but it's important to try.  It's also an important consequence for her to experience for her actions.

Accountability can also be addressed in DBT therapy.  My wife's therapist is using a portion of DBT therapy called "reality acceptance" to address this.  She is running my wife through the various abusive scenes and trying to get her to understand how what she did was wrong and the effect it might have had on me.  After 4 months, my wife has not made substantial progress on accountability.  8 more months of the batterer program to go, and the DBT is typically a year long but can be extended.

Regarding the criminal prosecution, by not being willing to press charges, you make it more likely she will offend in the future against you or someone else.  You also potentially weaken your civil case against her with respect to divorce terms, support, making the protective order permanent, etc. (B.t.w. if you have photos or other evidence of your destroyed toy, or even if not, I'd try to recover the funds in a divorce settlement if you decide to get divorced).

Any family court actions and criminal cases proceed separately.  Family court actions are decided by a preponderance of evidence.  Criminal, as you probably know, is beyond a reasonable doubt.  That's a very high standard.  Let me cut to the chase -- I would meet with the DA or the DA's investigator.  Tell them everything that happened.  Give them everything you have (audio recordings, all evidence).  Tell them you'll cooperate.  Then it's their problem.  If they don't like their chances of winning, they won't press charges.  If you're not emotionally invested in the outcome of the criminal case, it needn't take a lot of your brain space or calendar time.  You can ask the DA's folks when you talk to them about the time burden, and tell them about your concerns about your job.  Also, there may well be laws in your state protecting DV witnesses from job loss due to appearing in court to support prosecution.  There is such a law in my state.  So if you do cooperate, and you tell HR, there may be some protective factor.

Speaking of your job, my job was on shaky ground as well.  If you've got a halfway decent relationship with management at work, I'd seriously consider coming totally clean with them, if you haven't already.  You may be surprised at how much support you get.

You asked about the advice in Splitting to move along as quickly as possible without inflammatory actions.  With the level of violence you've experienced, and the presence of deadly weapons, you have the dubious distinction of being special.  If you gloss over her history of violence, you increase your danger.  You want the community, especially law enforcement, on your side and watching out for you.  Bright sunlight needs to be shining on this situation for all to see.  I have heard that abusive women in general are more influenced by public visibility to conduct themselves appropriately than abusive guys are.  That may work in your favor, though your mileage may vary.

A family member of mine (aunt/uncle generation) whom is a doctor practicing for 35 years, said that I should press charges... .That this is the only way to stop this behavior in the future... .This scares me... .

Can you tell us why it scares you?

WW

[greenyard]

What she said is not scary specifically, its that now several folks are telling me this. It scares me because it was a thought that never crossed my mind until now. The idea of her being in handcuffs paints a vivid and painful image in my mind... .

[Radcliff]

What she said is not scary specifically, its that now several folks are telling me this. It scares me because it was a thought that never crossed my mind until now. The idea of her being in handcuffs paints a vivid and painful image in my mind... .

OK, I understand.  I do.  To be honest, one time I stood in front of a police officer telling him I wanted to report, but not file charges.  Even if our wife is abusive, we are conditioned to take care of her, to protect her.  It feels like a betrayal to get her in trouble.  Of course, once I filed the police report, my wife felt betrayed and laid massive amounts of guilt on me.   I've thought a lot about this over the last few months.  One thing I've realized is that the abuse the heaped on me was an incredible betrayal.  This situation exists because of her behavior, not yours.  You are the hero here.  If you had less self control, one of you could be seriously injured or dead.  You mentioned being trapped by your wife.  I don't know about you, but that's almost more upsetting to me than being assaulted.  To have my liberty denied, and to be so committed to not using my greater strength to escape, risking injury to her and prosecution to me.  If we had beers together, we could probably talk about this stuff for hours.

After months of thinking about it, here's where I've landed.  Play it straight, and let the chips fall where they may.  I'm doing this now with a custody evaluation that will determine if my wife can have unsupervised visits with D12.  Just like I have a responsibility to D12, you have a responsibility to yourself (this is a very tough concept for folks like us to get).  I gave the custody evaluator all the evidence on what my wife did (piles of it).  I held nothing back.  I felt horrible.  Ironically, she didn't feel horrible about responding by accusing me of abuse!  The reason behind my approach is that I simply don't know if I tried to be in control whether I'd be too lenient on her or too harsh.  I fluctuate back and forth.  So, I'm giving up control.  Just telling the truth, and letting the chips fall where they may.  I'm going to have to live with what happens for the rest of my life, and so far, this approach is working for me.  I'm going to stick with it.

WW

[greenyard]

Thanks Wentworth.

Batterers program: I will ask for it for sure, I agree with you and had this in mind before.


Evidence of abuse... .I will hand it all over to the detective. All of it. Photos of my damaged toy, heck I still have it. Photos of damaged laptop, I still have that too. More photos of bleeding lips, wads of hair, have that too. As for her pointing the gun at me, I do not have direct evidence of that. Just that she did it and it scared the s#1t out of me. I will hand over my journal that I've created in the past 5 months. I even have email correspondence from 6 years ago that I had with our mutual therapist about my wife's threats of divorce, her profanity and verbal abuse. I agree that being clear and fully honest is the best way to move forward. I was not perfect in all of this. I did lose my temper. I did shout at her back, usually "STOP STOP STOP" or "LEAVE ME ALONE" or "LET ME GO". I did try to leave the room once by crawling on the floor pushing her aside... .But I never hit her or trapped her. I'm sure she will retaliate and report abuse using her distorted view. I know she does not have a journal, but I do, and I have real evidence to substantiate milestones within my journal. I will let them press charges if it comes to that. I'm glad to hear how you felt when you reported the assault to the police. I totally get that initial guilty feeling. How we naturally want to be their protector, that person that cares for their well-being - this is something we vowed to each other. But the reality is, she turned against me and assaulted me, many many times. This is a betrayal of our marriage vows... .our sacred promise... .

My work place After I got the Protective order, I immediately went to HR and gave them a copy. It felt good. I have been keeping my boss informed of this crises, giving him weekly updates including mentioning the BPD. Only today yesterday did I tell him about the gun... .He's younger than me by 5 years, but he's a very respectable and honorable person and I really trust him. Its still difficult to give him the whole picture, and I waffle too with the break up / make up cycles. I think this is one of the hardest things for anyone else outside of an abusive relationship to understand - to normal people, they just think its retarded. But generally I'm fortunate that I work in a special place with some of the highest performers in the US (probably world). It's one of the reasons I love working here. I work with smart people. Everyone is sharp, professional, and everyone cares deeply about our work and mission. PM me and I'll tell you where I work. Unfortunately my state does not have explicit laws protecting DV witnesses. I have to burn vacation days. Some other states allow use of family medical leave. But thank you for mentioning that as I looked it up.


The missing gun This is something I'm becoming worried by. Per my request, My lawyer asked her again a 3rd time to give explanation as to where the gun is and this time she did not respond and instead called her lawyer (I saw on the phone records). I'm willing to bet she has it in possession. I told my lawyer if she doesn't cooperate today, I will report the missing gun to the police Thursday morning (I don't know if she got this message). This could potentially get herself arrested and in big big trouble. I honestly am NOT afraid that she will use the gun on me at this point as she doesn't have the grip/trigger part and likely doesn't have the motivation as I'm not in the same room as her to "offend her", but my real concern is the lack of respect for the Protective Order, just like she doesn't respect my space, and my liberty, and my well-being (ie. to not be hit or verbally assaulted). I'll see how I feel in the morning.


Family vs Criminal Court Thank you for explaining that difference in evidence. It wasn't quite clear to me originally, but now I totally get it.

I could really go for a beer now... .

[greenyard]

Ok. thanks for the support. I have some homework to do. There are lots of phone calls, probably much (75%) of the recordings are not value added for DV evidence, just basic talking about life. I'm guessing it would probably be better to sort out the recordings between normal and aggressive content and only hand over the aggressive content?

[Radcliff]

Ok. thanks for the support. I have some homework to do. There are lots of phone calls, probably much (75%) of the recordings are not value added for DV evidence, just basic talking about life. I'm guessing it would probably be better to sort out the recordings between normal and aggressive content and only hand over the aggressive content?

I handed over audio and video evidence on memory sticks.  Between lawyers, therapists, police, etc., I bought a fair number of memory sticks.

Yes, be selective.  You know the running time of the recordings, that's how much time it will take someone to listen.  They are really only going to want to hear the useful stuff.  The total run time of the video I handed over was 30 minutes, and the audio was 5 minutes.  Not to say you have to use me as a guide.  I felt like I wasn't imposing too much to ask a custody evaluator to spend 35 minutes of time watching/listening to the stuff.  For what you hand to the DA, I'd probably stick to just prosecutable offenses like assault, entrapment, etc. 

Before you go to a ton of personal effort on the audio, you might want to just have a conversation with the DA first.  Tell them what you have, and see if they're interested.  But I would recommend that you listen to it first, at least the important ones, and take a few notes, so you can accurately describe it.  You may choose to write up a one page summary with highlights.  It's good to listen to it yourself because you may not realize what you have.  The one audio recording I handed in was much worse for my wife than I remembered, and listening to it helped give me the confidence to really push to get it listened to.

WW

[greenyard]

I just got news from my christian friends that my wife left town but will be back Monday. Presumably to drop off all the furniture and house items she took.  Grrr, she took quite a few of my favorite things such as my favorite art sculptures and my favorite kitchen knife - it was a Japanese damascus blade (forged folded steel). And why would she take all of my underwear, socks, and half my t-shirts? I think this is just all more punishment / vindictiveness... .

[Radcliff]

That's great that you will be getting some things back.  I wonder how many guys (or gals?) here have lost their underwear.  My wife stole all my underwear and gave it back to me one day at a time, if I was nice to her.  I started to suspect that we had a bit of an unhealthy relationship dynamic going on 

Do you think you might be successful if you simply ask her for the things back, including the knife, and any other items that are important to you? Perhaps a straightforward request, with no heat or emotion, might be successful?

WW

[greenyard]

Haha... .that sucks that your wife did that, and strung you along on the underwear piece by piece. Is taking someone's underwear a common thing pwBPD do?

I don't think she'll give it back even if I ask nicely - been there done that on many other things. Historically she has taken things and held them hostage until I give something of hers back, usually in a disproportionate ratio. For example, when this crises started back in october, all the 2 laptops, 2 tablets, cell phones, camera and digital storage devices, passport, medical records, and my external hard drives disappeared, the same night my toys were destroyed. December I filed for divorce, it wasn't until January that I got 1 external hard drive back, and early February that I got 1 laptop returned. Getting the laptop back required canceling the divorce petition. Then 2 weeks later I got my passport back and some of the other memory cards but 1 other laptop and tablet are still missing along with a bunch of other stuff that she claims "is on you". The way she returns this stuff too is strange. She hides items in the house like easter eggs and tells me to go look for it... .I think she thinks she's removing herself from liability and pushes responsibility to me if it's "lost"... .I need to just write it off... .I'm sad to lose my T shirts because they're special from work and not replaceable. Each one has a special campaign memory associated with it.

[greenyard]

I just got out of my mid term performance review

PHEWWWW... I passed with exceeds expectations! I thought they were going to walk me out the door. I am SOOoo relieved. 

[Radcliff]

I'm sorry to hear about all of your stuff.  Perhaps ask your lawyer and see if he has any ideas.  You could bargain for them if she wants any concessions from you.

Having finally gotten safe, I've resolved that I will never, ever again live in a situation where things like wallet, keys, cell phone, laptop, and clothes are at risk.  That is just such a violation of trust in what is supposed to be the safest relationship we have.  A healthy relationship seems impossible under those circumstances.  Honestly, I think it may have been worse than the physical abuse.  For me it was a big step to acknowledge the severity of the present conditions and enforce boundaries (which unfortunately took a restraining order).

Messing with clothes seems rather common, particularly female pwBPD vs. male "nons".

WW