New here—DIL's life is nothing but chaos and lies. Worried for my son.

[Angie59]

I am a very worried mom for my son.  His fiance is suspected (don't know if she is diagnosed or not) to have BPD.  She is the strangest person I have ever met and goes against everything my son has been taught growing up.

She has a child with another man (when my son first met her) and they have a son together.  She is never home, always working, (but she lies quite a bit) and this April she is going on an overseas trip with another man.  This is the fourth trip in the three years we have known her that she is going on a trip with another man for "something."  

I don't know how much to reveal on here but I am afraid for not only my son getting hurt but for the two children.  Her daughter just told her the other day that she never gets to see her anymore and misses her.  When she is home, all she wants my son to do is take her out to eat or go shopping.

She uses filthy language but only when her parents are around, who do not mind it at all, it seems.  I feel like I am in a nightmare that is lasting almost 4 years and waiting to wake up!

Her life is nothing but chaos and lies.  

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Thank you for any help!

Desparate!

[HappyChappy]

HI Angies59,

Welcome to the forum. I can see why you would be concerned over the behaviour your mention, it must be very difficult for you. But you have not mentioned anything that would pre suppose (or rule out) BPD. Could you expand more on how your DIL behaves emotionally ? What's your son's take on all this ?
 

[Mutt]

Hi Angie59,



Id like to join HappyChappy and welcome you to bpdfamily. I can understand the anxiety when introducing a new person to your kids. This is a safe anonymous place where you can express your thoughts and feelings without being invalidated. I’d like echo HappyChappy can you tell us more maybe we can find something that correlates with BPD?

[heartandwhole]

Hi Angie59,



I'd like to join HappyChappy in welcoming you to the community. I can understand your worry about your son, especially as you witness chaos and lies from his wife.

You've found a great place for support. The site has members who understand, and tools that can help improve your relationship with your son and his family.

Do you see your grandson and son, DIL often?

Keep posting. We are here for you.

heartandwhole

[Angie59]

Hello,

I am new here and I had a reply to my post and don't know how to get back to it to respond!   

I was asked to explain the emotions of my son's fiance' who we believe has BPD.  She has not been diagnosed by a professional.  My son has a Master's Degree in Psychology and thinks that she fits that best, but I am making it clear that she has not been diagnosed as such.  I know she has been diagnosed with depression and was prescribed Prozac, but that is all I know.  She never discusses it with us.


Her emotions are such that you never know what you're going to get.  You can ask a simple question, like what do you want me to bring to the bar-b-que and have her go off in a rage.  You can see her one day and she will be so friendly you won't believe it.  Her emotions are sort of up and down and all over the place.  As a mom, she seems as if she cannot tolerate her children and wants to be gone all the time from the house.  She did leave her child (our grandbaby) with someone she knew used drugs - not once but twice. 

If anyone can be of any help, I would appreciate it.  Perhaps I'm still not giving enough information and if not, please let me know and I will be happy to answer any questions.  I feel like I am in a nightmare and waiting to wake up.

I suffer from anxiety and depression and this whole situation has made my own emotional state go crazy.  I think about the situation when I wake, went I go t sleep and all day long.  It is overwhelming me!  Grandpa and I take care of our grandbaby on Thursday and Friday (her mom the other 3 days) and I am so afraid to notdo this anymore for fear of where she will leave him.

I hope to hear back from someone.  I am so glad I found this place!

Angie59

[once removed]

hi Angie59, id like to join the others and say

do i have it right that its your son is the one who suspects BPD? is he the fiance of the person in question?

have the two of you discussed it? if so, whats his take?

your sons fiance does sound pretty difficult. the Lessons at the top of the board to the right (click here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108307) can really help you better understand her behaviors, and how to navigate them, as well as psychology tools to help you cope.

additionally, we have a whole host of workshops that discuss communication techniques, strategies, dos and donts, that sort of thing. you can find it here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=36.0

it can be extra difficult to navigate with anxiety and depression, and i imagine your circumstances are really taking a toll. are you seeing, or have you considered seeing, a doctor or therapist? self care is really critical!

[Angie59]

Hello and thank you so much for the warm welcome.  I think this site will be very helpful to myself as well. 

Sometimes I get to going on a rant and don't explain things well.  I have two sons, one 32 and one 28.  No daughters.  The 28-year-old is the one who has the girlfriend/fiance' who we suspect has BPD.  Now, my son does not suspect anything as far as I know.  He is so much in love with her I don't think he can see his hand in front of his face! 

We are a conservative family and her and her parents' ways are so different from we are.  Going on a trip with another man out of the country (and they just go engaged!), and leave two children behind with my son who works a full time job and then some, just does not seem normal to me.  However, after she told us, we have not said a word to her about it nor did we say anything to our son, where we usually would before. 

Both children, as well as herself currently have no insurance.  We had insurance on our children as soon as they entered the world.  There is a lot of neglect going on there and a lot of things I feel are inappropriate for a mother to act.  I know I am sounding very judgmental, but worries are for the safety and well-being of my grandkids and of course as a mom, I hate seeing my son treated as a doormat! 

This has been going on for almost 4 years now.  Her moods are very erratic, life is very chaotic, she is almost never home with her and my son and kids, and being around her has been hell, to put it bluntly.  She also lies about things all the time and contradicts herself.  Most of the time, she leaves the house looking like a prostitute (great example for her daughter), and it leaves me with a broken heart to see all of this.

Any help would be appreciated. 

Thank you again for your warm welcome!  I'm glad to be here.

[HappyChappy]

Hi Angie59

You are right that leaving children behind and going away with another man is not usual behaviour, but if someone cannot cope a common reaction is to run away or take a break. Depression can be a symptom of not coping. Mood swings could be Bi Polar, BPD or a bunch of other things. Probably the best thing is to encourage your DIL to visit the Drs and get a diagnosis. But if she’s on Prozac sounds like she has visited. Has she been referred to a psychiatrist ? Talking therapies can often help with depression and anxiety, has your DIL tried this yet ? Like you, I suffer from depression and anxiety due to BPD behaviour, and found talking therapies help immensely, have you considered therapy for your anxiety ?

If your DIL does have BPD then it will be incredibly hard for you to change her behaviour, and the best thing you can do is encourage her to walk towards people that can help her, such as Drs and a Therapists. The most important lesson I learnt was to stop tying to save my BPD, and look to change how I viewed things, through Therapy. The other things you can do is learn techniques to get the best out of someone with BPD. There are many of these lessons available on this forum, such as using S.E.T. or not using J.A.D.E etc... Someone with BPD can wind us up very effectively and this forum can be very good at unwinding things by grounding us. a BPD will invalidate your feelings, but this form can then validate (if it is valid). So think of this a free expert advice from those that were brought up with someone with a BPD.

One last suggestion, try not to criticise a BPD, they have black and white thinking. If you criticise them, for leaving the kids for example, they assume you are the enemy and will fight you and cut you out. They will always isolate your son and grandchildren from any and all perceived enemies. So rather than critise about leaving the kids, offer to baby sit. I know it deserves criticism, but if she is BPD then different rules apply. Three of my grandparents gave up on my BPD but one persisted. Her visits were a God send because their behaviour will be far better if an outsider is watching. Does any of this help  you ?
 

[Angie59]

Thank you HappyChappy for your response, questions and advice.  I will definitely check out this website for more help.

To answer a few of your questions, yes, she must be seeing someone in order to get her Prozac, and I do believe she is seeing a therapist as I did see a receipt from one.  However, unfortunately I cannot just come out and ask her this question.  She would think this is very personal and would not want to discuss any of it with me.  She is not "approachable" at all.  I know her well enough by now that you would never ask her that question about mental health care.  So I do not know what she has been diagnosed with.  My son tells us depression, which I don't question, but her behavior seems to suggest much more.  I have also caught my son in a few lies in order to protect her and show her in a good light.  It is kind of hard to sort fact from fiction when you are aware that someone lies.  Our son has admitted that much to us, and has told us that she does lie. 

She can be very nice to you one day and then you can call with a very normal question such as, "what do you want me to bring to the barbeque" and she will give the phone to my son, and be yelling in the background, she doesn't know, she doesn't care what we bring, just bring soda or something, she doesn't care.  It is very hurtful to me when she does this.

Please, anyone, tell me if I am doing something wrong here.  I am in need of help as how to handle this woman without damaging my son and grandson's relationship with us.  That would just kill me if that happened.

Oh yes, you did ask about babysitting.  We babysit on a regular basis Thursday and Friday every week.  It is a very, very long day (about 10 hours) and we do not get any appreciation for this either.  She comes home sometimes with ice cream or food to eat and sits there and eats in front of us!  I was just raised so different, I have tried and tried to get over this and let things go, and just when I think I do, she does something else that sets my husband and I on fire.  We are just so, so confused by her behavior.

Help please!

Angie59

[drained1996]

I'd suggest you seek some help from a therapist on how to calmly approach your son about these issues.  Having been in several BPD relationships myself, the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) can drain one's ability to see the severity of their own situations... .and even reality.  It is a drain own their own mental and emotional well being... .If communicated in the wrong fashion, you may very well make your own circumstances harder.  Understanding and validation is probably what he needs... .
Having a professional can help you in understanding the pitfalls that lay before you... .and better prepare you for the reactions you may face. 

[HappyChappy]

Hi Angie

I would agree with drained1996 therapy can only help. Might encourage your BPD to go the same way, if she thinks its a fashionable status symbol.

The more you recount, the more BPD like behaviour your mention. So you say she doesn’t like people asking personal questions , a BPD needs personal details to manipulate you, so they assume that’s why you’re asking them. So unless they think its will impress you they don’t like you prying.  The yelling in the background on the phone, is probably purposeful, someone with BPD will deride their enemy in order to keep you in your place, on the back foot. Attack is the best form of defence, is common with a BPD.

The fact you are allowed to baby site for 10 hours, is actually a really good sign. It shows a level of trust, which is hard for a BPD to show. You won’t get appreciation, as a BPD feels entitled to help, but I’m sure your grandchildren and son appreciate this. A BPD struggles to give unconditional love, so if you can give this your grandchildren, as I’m sure your son does, this will help big time in their cognitive development.  I got it mostly from my friends as my BPD scared everyone away and wouldn’t allow anyone in her house. So your DIL is an improvement on that.

  You asked "what are we doing wrong". A BPD will criticise continually, its hard wired in them. It's very rare that they will change, because the can not accept they are less than perfect, so believe you must change. So possibly the only wrong thing you may be doing, is to expect a BPD to change. A reasonable expectation for most people, but not a BPD. Could that be it ?

You will never get a placid BPD, there will always be arguments. Use S.E.T. and not J.A.D.E. A BPD will purposefully kick off arguments, because that is where they are strongest. You won’t win an argument with them, I’ve seen my BPD and NPD rage for a full week on the same argument, including breaking thing and screaming until they go horse. They will wear you down, and they can not back down. That’s why Trump vs Kim young Un is perceived to be so dangerous.

Another way of doing this is medium chill, where you just don’t rise to any of the provocations, but you don’t ignore them. So “yes dear” type responses. I know it’s hard, but your grandchildren will be appreciative. Most importantly, if you are baby sitting regularly, you’d spot anything particularly worrying developments, but it you’re locked out, a BPD can hide things and get her Husband to fall in line, extremely well. Don’t get locked out. Best of luck. Your DIL brining ice cream back just for herself - never forget they are emotional suck in many respects at age 8. Bless.

 

[Angie59]

Dear Drained1996,

Yes, I have already been to many counselors and even went to group therapy over this.  I did learn a lot and I know changing my reactions to it are essential to my mental health as well.  I guess because it is my son and I see what is going on there, my emotions can get the best of me out of protection for him.

I am not seeing anyone right now due to financial reasons.  There have been more therapists that did not help me than did.  One of these was a fabulous counselor and did help me quite a bit; however, she does not accept my insurance.  I cannot afford her cost of $100.00 per session right now.

I try to read books and now found this website to try to get help.  You are right.  My son needs understanding and not anger.  I have not even mentioned the trip she is taking out of the country with another man who is her "friend."  I just keep on loving him and supporting him and try to avoid talking about her.

He is not "street smart" but academically smart.  Sometimes I think he knows things are not right, but he either tries to convince himself that they are or just compartmentalizes, I don't know.  He has total care of the two children, one of which is a little girl who is not even his.  He cares for her and loves her as if she is his own.

I feel she is a liar, master manipulator, and is making a fool of my son.  This is mom is so angry about that, I can't seem to get past it. 

Thank yo so much for your thoughts and your reply.

[Angie59]

Dear HappyChappy,

Thank you so much for your response.  You certainly brought up a lot of good points.  I appreciate your help.  I have probably been told this before in one of my responses, but how do I get to S.E.T?  Is this a separate web site or is it on this website?

[once removed]

SET and a few others are here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0

[drained1996]

Good to hear you have had support from a T.  We get that there are some out there that are not overly helpful, and it's good to hear you've at least had the opportunity to have one that helped your situation well.  Completely understand the financial part... .and glad you have found this place as there is plenty of support and educational material here to help you in your circumstance.  The emotional support and understanding as well as the educational material you can find here can be unmatched if you are willing to continue participating! 

I feel she is a liar, master manipulator, and is making a fool of my son.  This  mom is so angry about that, I can't seem to get past it. 

You've been directed to SET and to avoid Jade'ing by several other posts.  It's not easy stuff to be able to do all the time, but can certainly help your process.  I learned in my own process that anger was one of my own worst enemies.  I'll ask, where is your anger directed?     
A large portion of us here were or are in the same boat as your son... .so we understand.  What does he think about his relationship with her and the care of the children? 

[Angie59]

Good morning!

We (my husband and I) have been to quite a few counselors on how to deal with all of this.  Setting boundaries has been talked about extensively.

We have talked to our son numerous times and all he does is defend her.  He said no one better say anything about her now, since they are engaged.  We did not start out the conversation or continue it by yelling or showing anger, just concern for him.  He is extremely defensive.

We tried to set boundaries with the BP; his fiance' and she is not approachable at all.  In fact, the boundary we set was very simple.  Since her work schedule varies each Thursday and Friday, we asked for her schedule as soon as she receives it, so we can schedule anything we may want to do accordingly.  She did it one time, and now texts us the schedule usually on Wednesday night. 

Her daughter is terrible, but usually only around her.  She is 4 years old and goes to daycare.  One morning as she tried to get her ready for school, which is always a battle, the little girl shouted at her mom, "I hate you," "I want you to shut up," and the anger in her face was unbelievable.  She put her in time-out and the little girl screamed at her from the chair, continued to try to get up, scratched her mother, and then threw the chair across the room.

Because we have our grandson there, we worry about his safety in this environment.  She has done various things to him that make us feel she may hurt him some day seriously.

I don't mean to not take any of your suggestions.  They are all very much appreciated and good suggestions.  We just do not know what to do at this point.  We feel so desperate.  My husband is able to "compartmentalize" all this and at least go on with other things.  I, on the other hand, because of my anxiety, tend to dwell on it and it is making my own life difficult.  Ugh!

I am willing to continue on here.  It's all I feel I have left.

[once removed]

We have talked to our son numerous times and all he does is defend her.  He said no one better say anything about her now, since they are engaged.  We did not start out the conversation or continue it by yelling or showing anger, just concern for him.  He is extremely defensive.

i want to second the advice of drained1996 that understanding and validation are very important when it comes to your son. consistent support (not validating the invalid or rewarding bad behavior) is critical. it can give him strength, help set a good example, and if the relationship were to end tomorrow, he would need to know that support would exist.

its important to avoid stepping into the role of persecutor, or rescuer. learning how to navigate the karpman drama triangle can really help you here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

[drained1996]

One morning as she tried to get her ready for school, which is always a battle, the little girl shouted at her mom, "I hate you," "I want you to shut up," and the anger in her face was unbelievable.  She put her in time-out and the little girl screamed at her from the chair, continued to try to get up, scratched her mother, and then threw the chair across the room.

Unfortunately she's probably repeating what she has seen, or this is her defense mechanism to not receiving what she needs emotionally as a small child.  Either way... .certainly not her fault.  And of course it does speak directly to the probability that your DIL has BPD traits based on your prior posts.  
Your son seems caught up in the FOG of a not so healthy relationship, and we here understand how debilitating being in that position can be... .no matter how educated one may be.  I will say to you... .it's not easily understandable if you have not been there yourself... .I've tried to have conversations with people who know me well about my BPD experiences, and they always look like a deer in headlights.    
Boundaries are your only friend... .even if your son becomes included in those boundaries.  It's up to him to realize his own situation and he is the only one who has the ability to fix that.  

[Panda39]

Hi Angie59,

FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail has been mentioned several times so I wanted to share a link on that if you hadn't seen it already.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

If your son is like so many here it is likely that he is experiencing a lot of FOG.  People with BPB use the fact that we are nice, polite, want to do the right thing and don't like to make a scene against us.  Your nice son who has been raised well, is doing the "right" thing or at least would be the right thing if she didn't have BPD traits... .he's marrying the mother of his son, he is making a commitment he is sticking to his commitment, he is trying to work on his relationship with her and be a father to his son.  All of those qualities are admirable and all of those qualities are a double edged sword because they are being used by his fiance to hold on to him.  Remember fear of abandonment is at the heart of BPD.

It is important that you are there for your son, that the door is always open, and that you listen, but you can't do this for him, you can't make him do the things you wish he would, you can't control his decisions they are his to make.  He may need to learn some things the hard way and as a parent that is soo incredibly hard to watch because we want to protect our kids.  Try to let go of trying to control, you can't control anyone but yourself and the role you play here.  Your son is going to do what he is going to do and so is his fiance.  You don't want to put your son in the position to have to choose you or his fiance... .you don't want to put him in the middle.  Try to focus on the relationship you have with your son nurture it and do your best to stay off the drama triangle because that never goes well.

Take Care,
Panda39

[Angie59]

Good morning everyone!

I would like to say thank you to drained 1996 and Panda 39 for your responses. I have read the Triangle article about keeping drama going and could identify with this.  I also have ordered the book FOG on my Kindle so I have that on hand.

You are right, my son has actually spoken those very words when his dad and I have gotten into arguments about the BP.  He has stated he is always in the middle. 

Since I have found out about her trip out of the country in April and the pot offer, as well as a bar fight she got into that I forgot to mention, I have said nothing of these things to my son.  We have taken that step to keep communications open to him and let him know we are always here for him.  He really tries so hard to shine a good light on the BP.  Yes, I know I am being a mom and my heart hurts for my son.  He is a very good person, and that doesn't just come from me being partial.  Many people have said that to me and I just feel he doesn't deserve this type of treatment.  However, I also know she is who he chose and we will have to accept that. 

I have just started the book FOG and I am also reading S.E.T.  I appreciate all of your responses.

Just to understand better, just one question.  Why is she always "gone" from her home and family?  Fear of abandonment seems to be a strong trait in BPs, so why do they do things such as always being gone if they are the ones who fear abandonment.  I feel she is the one who is abandoning them!   

Just trying to understand all of this,

Angie 59

[Panda39]

What is she out doing?  Is her absence keeping your son engaged with her?

Panda39

[Angie59]

She is working two jobs which equal about 35-40 hours a week, so can't fault her for that.

When she has time off, she is getting tatoos, going to clubs, getting bikini waxes done, buying extremely expensive makeup, etc.  She told us she was at a bar the other night, a girl and her began to fight (verbally), and my DIL left the bar and began walking down a route that is not safe at all, with her drink in hand of course.  I guess she left her car there. 

The sad part is, our grandson is only 1-1/2 years old but her daughter is 4 and she told her the other the day, "Mommy I don't ever see you anymore; I miss you." 

She will be gone for a whole week in April out of the country with another guy.

My son's reaction to the trip was, "Well this is great time, we just got engaged!" 

I am reading the book FOG right now hoping to understand him and all of this craziness. 

I admit it - I am stuck in an angry place.  I do so want to love her like a daughter and feel she is part of the family, but boy she sure makes it hard!

Angie59

[once removed]

When she has time off, she is getting tatoos, going to clubs, getting bikini waxes done, buying extremely expensive makeup, etc.  She told us she was at a bar the other night, a girl and her began to fight (verbally), and my DIL left the bar and began walking down a route that is not safe at all, with her drink in hand of course.  I guess she left her car there. 

i think that this, and her attitude, speak to the impulsive nature of someone with BPD traits. there is little if any thought of consequences or long term effects, for oneself or others.

it also sounds like she struggles to cope, and prefers to escape.

[Panda39]

I agree a lot of selfish immature stuff going on with your son's fiance.

Sounds like she is using your son's sense of responsibility to get him to take care of all of her responsibilities while she just runs off and does whatever she wants.

What do you think your son is getting out of this relationship?

Panda39

[Angie59]

Thank you Panda39 and once removed for your replies. 

Panda39 you asked what my son may be getting out of this relationship.  We (my husband and I) have asked that same question so many times. 

I have no idea if I am even close to what it is, but my theory on it is that he does know the things she does are odd or not quite right; however, feels that the alternative is worse?  I'm not sure.

To clarify that, I mean the alternative being leaving the relationship.  The house they are in is his house and he is the only one on the title right now.  He could tell her to leave and remain in his house, but that would mean  (BP's daughter) would have to leave as well.  He would never do that.  He loves her as his own.  She was on 5 months old when he met BP and is now 4.  It would really tear him up with her no longer in his life. 

He just seems to be blinded by love.  This is his first really serious relationship and he doesn't really have anything to compare it to; but he still must know her behavior isn't quite right.  I'm sure he doesn't enjoy being alone 90% of the time with just the kids.  He just wants a family.  My heart breaks for him. 

Also to "once removed," I totally see what you are saying regarding her impulsivity.  You are absolutely right.  She does not think of consequences.

The short time I have been on this forum, I have had my eyes opened many times and my feelings seem to have been validated.  Wonderful place to be!

[Angie59]

Dear Panda39,

I overlooked a question you asked me a few posts ago in which you asked if I thought BP's absence is keeping my son engaged to her.  I'm not quite sure I understand the question.  Can you clarify?

Thank you!

[drained1996]

The house they are in is his house and he is the only one on the title right now.  He could tell her to leave and remain in his house, but that would mean  (BP's daughter) would have to leave as well.  He would never do that.  He loves her as his own.  She was on 5 months old when he met BP and is now 4.  It would really tear him up with her no longer in his life.  

Part of the FOG you are learning about.  Using a child to help employ that doesn't seem an uncommon theme in this forum.  Using the tools such as SET, and avoiding JADE'ing and also reading and learning as much as you can about a BPD situation can help you learn to communicate and react better to negative situations.  You cannot control your possible soon to be DIL, and you cannot control your son.  You can however change how you may react to them in a manner better fit for yourselves by understanding and utilizing some of the information that has already been shared with you here.  
It's not easy, but you've found the right place for support.  Keep posting, you'll find support and advice/experience from many who have walked the mile that lays before you.   
  

[Panda39]

Dear Panda39,

I overlooked a question you asked me a few posts ago in which you asked if I thought BP's absence is keeping my son engaged to her.  I'm not quite sure I understand the question.  Can you clarify?

Thank you!

What I was thinking was, is her trip with this man making him jealous, is being the "responsible one" while she's out gallivanting around making your son resentful?  Because FOG and positive emotions will keep him engaged or attached to her but so will negative emotions,s  if she is BPD or has BPD traits the whole world has to revolve around her... .all attention must be on her and negative attention is still attention. 

It might help you to get your son's perspective by reading posts on the relationship boards or even post some questions there.

I see this trip with the other guy as a way to see how far she can push your son's boundaries and get some extra attention from the other guy as an added bonus.  The thing is that she is going to do what she is going to do, no one can control another person.  Your son only has control over what he does and for whatever reason (because he really thinks it's okay or emotional blackmail) he has chosen to let the trip happen without complaint (or at least complaint you know about - there could be more going on behind the scenes)

I am with you this trip with another man is totally inappropriate for a newly engaged woman. 

Panda39

[drained1996]

I am with you this trip with another man is totally inappropriate for a newly engaged woman.  

That and pretty much everything Panda pointed out.  You only have control over how you react to the stimulus that is given by either... .as a couple or singular.  It's your job to use the tools you find here and in T to react to them in the most responsible way for yourselves.  You cannot control either of them... .nor their feelings. You can however control how you react to them.  Controlling your reactions  can be a really good first step into setting some healthy boundaries... .boundaries both you and your son can possibly benefit from in the future.  

[Angie59]

Thank you Panda39 and drained1996 for your replies.  It has helped validate my own feelings.  I am really learning a lot on this site, but I do know a T would also help immensely.  It is just crazy how a BP in your life can turn your world upside down and even make you question yourself and your feelings.  After she announced the trip, my first thought was, this is just not right (which I felt 3 times before when she took a trip with another guy).  Then I sit there and say, "Am I just being a prude?"  Maybe I need to be more open-minded, or maybe because he trusts her, it's okay. 

My husband, older son and I have even gotten into arguments about her and the situation. 

Your replies mean so much to me and I am learning what others would feel and that I'm not crazy. 

I want to give back my help someday to everyone on here, as I feel like it's all questions from me getting help for myself, and not giving anyone else advice.  I am so in the throes of all of this, I don't feel I am in a place to give anyone else advice.  I hope I can someday, however. 

By the way, my son would never get on this board (which I sure wish he would) because I touched on the subject of BP before with him and he just laughed and said, no she isn't like that!  Complete denial!  So, when I talk with him I keep it light and don't talk about BP anymore as I want to keep my relationship with him and be there for him when things get worse - which I pretty much believe they will.  Over the past 4 years, they have progressed rather rapidly.

Thank you again so much for your replies and wisdom.