The aftermath of a devastating relationship - deja vu

[RomanticFool]

We are all kind of alone at the end. I’m female and the odds are if I have a life partner he’ll die first. I also did not have kids. So, gulp, I’ll be “alone”, but you know what I’ll do about that? Well, if I am older and alone and there is no one to come visit/talk to me I’m gonna look up local service agencies and call and call until I can get someone to come and visit me! Voila! Not alone! smiley And then I can tell them about all my adventures and lost loves!

I come from a family of five kids. I had people around me all the time when I was a kid. When I first came to London, on the back of a family tragedy (my brother died at the age of 17 of epilepsy) I had a girlfriend who I knew didn't want to be with me but couldn't leave me because of the tragedy I'd suffered. The first chance she got (about 6 months into college) she ended the r/s. I had never felt so lonely in my whole life. I thought I would die of grief and loneliness. But I didn't. I survived and like you, I am not scared of being alone or of change.

When I got married in 2011, I made a decision that I was marrying for companionship. This was a departure from my usual obsessive, sex-fulled, drama based relationships such as the one with the ex. My wife and I had already not slept together for 2 years prior to our wedding. I told myself it didn't matter. We didn't consummate our wedding night and when exBPD married lover contacted me, I practically ran to the meet up. I was sexually frustrated beyond belief. We met up and all of the attraction I had towards her previously was there times a thousand. She always had a powerful effect on me. In fact I don't think any woman has ever had the same impact on me. However, I knew even then that my wife was a better person with far more integrity. I told myself I could handle an affair with the ex because I craved physical intimacy. I was kidding myself. I have never been able to handle affairs. When I become intensely attracted to somebody I am immediately vulnerable, obsessive and jealous.

For a time I was able to control these feelings with the ex. We love bombed each other and were crazy stupid in love. Her as much as me apparently. Then the distancing started again and the ST and the excuses. This woman is about as good for me as a smack over the head with an iron bar, yet I crave her. Not just physically but I find her exciting, enigmatic and compelling. I also despise her for how she treats me.

Back to my wife: A decent, wonderful human being that any right thinking man would be delighted to know. She may not have the sex appeal of the ex, she may not pay as much attention to her personal grooming, she may not be as feminine and desirable as the ex, but she has an awful lot going for her. If I end the r/s with her, I am giving up a woman that I trust, admire and love. Not crazy, passionate, sexual love, but love nevertheless. If we ended our r/s tomorrow I would be seeking a woman, such is my way. I know myself too well. I would be feeling constant grief about my lost loves (over my whole life), about my failed marriage, about my ex and about the times I shared with my wife. I am already grief stricken over the ex, why on earth do you think I would put myself through yet more grief over my wife just so I can meet somebody I fancy maybe a little more and may not be able to do anything about anyway and which would most likely fade. On top of all of that put myself through financial hardship which probably means I could never go to America to work (I won't bore you with the details of that equation but that's what breaking up would mean) and worst of all I would most likely deeply hurt my wife. Yes, she would get over it. Yes we would both be fine ultimately but there would be damage and at 55, I really cannot be bothered to go through all of that pain. The ex has put me through enough trauma to last a lifetime. Perhaps I won't always feel as I do now, but what I really need is a cuddle from my wife, something she gives me on a daily basis.

Someone told me once that the big loves come around once every ten years. I would say that the way I feel about the ex is a once in a life-time thing. Had she loved me back in the way that i wanted her to and been a woman of trust and integrity, I may well be having a wonderful time. However, the reality is that my love life is the greatest disappointment and where the ex is concerned, also the greatest sadness of my life. I want peace and inner calm more than I want to meet somebody else right now.

[pearlsw]

Oh, so you do cuddle with her? I always had the impression there was zilch. Dude, fifty five isn’t that old. Seriously.

Do you expect a change?  Or are you okay with the agony? (You don't sound happy.)

[pearlsw]

why on earth do you think I would put myself through yet more grief over my wife just so I can meet somebody I fancy maybe a little more and may not be able to do anything about anyway and which would most likely fade. On top of all of that put myself through financial hardship which probably means I could never go to America to work (I won't bore you with the details of that equation but that's what breaking up would mean) and worst of all I would most likely deeply hurt my wife. Yes, she would get over it. Yes we would both be fine ultimately but there would be damage and at 55, I really cannot be bothered to go through all of that pain. The ex has put me through enough trauma to last a lifetime. Perhaps I won't always feel as I do now, but what I really need is a cuddle from my wife, something she gives me on a daily basis.

so you are happy enough with your relationship? and if you can get a little more than cuddling that is a bonus.

i don't think most relationships with no sex for so long develop into sexual ones. do you? you think there is a chance with that?

[RomanticFool]

We do cuddle up, yes, and the occasional kiss, but really that is about it in terms of physical contact. I don't think non sexual r/s become sexual in general, no.

I reiterate that what I really want is my ex. She is my ideal sexual partner but she is not available, attainable, reliable or stable. Three weeks ago I told her that if she couldn't speak words of love to me then to leave me be. So she did 2 weeks of silence and a few days ago I cut her off FB again which she has not responded to. I think she could be involved in an intrigue with somebody else (I don't want to know) and this literally a month after saying to me "I am in this for the long haul." I am beginning to hate my ex. I have tried to reason with her, contain her, love her, push her away in equal measure and no matter what i do, she will always do something that will kill me inside. How on earth can I think straight about anything, including another woman, until I have found a way to get her out of my system?

[Insom]

It sounds like your wife provides safety and security while you continue to pour emotional energy into your affair partner even though you understand on an intellectual level that she is an unavailable chimera. 

Your ache is palpable.

Back to my wife: A decent, wonderful human being that any right thinking man would be delighted to know. She may not have the sex appeal of the ex, she may not pay as much attention to her personal grooming, she may not be as feminine and desirable as the ex, but she has an awful lot going for her. If I end the r/s with her, I am giving up a woman that I trust, admire and love.

Would an honest conversation with your wife about what is going on with you be tantamount to ending the r/s with her?  What is the range of possible outcomes?  Is there a range?  Or does it all feel black and white, either/or?

[RomanticFool]

It's not really about pouring emotional energy into the affair partner, it is about survival. I don't mean to sound melodramatic but I have been in different shades of despair during the last few years. Every time I attempt to distance myself or break it off the ex comes back for more connection only to distance herself again. She has done it to a very dramatic degree, claiming a suicide bid last year. I had to take that seriously even though I still have my doubts around it. Every time I walk away I try to get over it as best I can but when she gets back in contact I'm back in the pool of despair again. I find it terrible to walk away from somebody I care so much for but impossible to stay in the situation as it has been. Her answer is to cut me off for however long she sees fit, until she needs the connection again. This time is unusual because she hasn't commented on the FB unfriending. Round and round I go like a hamster on a wheel.

I have had times where I felt disconnected from the ex and the r/s with my wife remains the same as it is now. Stable and like room mates. I am sure it could all be sorted out if I had the wherewithal to end it and start again but I feel damaged and I just want some peace of mind right now.

[Insom]

It sounds like you could use some protection.  Have you considered going no contact?  I've been following your story for awhile now and remember how intense the suicide bid felt and how much you wanted to help.  At that point, NC may not have felt like a constructive option because your goal was to support your affair partner through her rough patch.  How do you feel about it now?

[RomanticFool]

I feel that something has changed from her end. Not sure I need to go NC as she seems to have made the decision to not contact me. However, even if I block her on WhatsApp and block her number, she still has 2 of my email addresses. In reality I always want to hear from her but I think the ease with which she goes NC and the way she dips in and out of the r/s when it suits her is what has taken its toll. It’s like I am constantly going through the grieving process.

[Skip]

RM,

I really challenge you to question what you mean by love. I think this is what is at the root of your struggles.

The relationship you had with your affair partner was doesn't sound like love, even a little. If was a 15 year supplemental sexual relationship, a fantasy, escapism. You have tried to bully and manipulate her for years for more sex - to the point of her being suicidal. She only wants your attention when she turns on a switch like a pet dog - otherwise, she has a life to live with her husband and child. The more you pressure her, the more she pulls away, and the more you want her. You think she is a liar, unfaithful in her affair (has even another lovers), is abusive and manipulative. She thinks you are a bully, over bearing, and a manipulator.

The relationship you have with you wife is one you will jump out of the minute you find someone more interesting. Even while you mourn the end or you affair, you were tracking to start another one. To you, she is passionless room mate. You are emotionally disconnected from her, have grown apart with personal interests. She has no idea who you are... .and as you say, if she found out, she would be gone.

These are dead end streets. For you. For them. For her husband. What happens if your wife comes up with cancer and you meet a sexually comparable partner... .will  you be there for her, sacrifice for her, or leave her to struggle alone?

I know these are hard questions, and letting go of these complex mire or relationships is scary, but everyone is young enough to recover.

[Insom]

I think the ease with which she goes NC and the way she dips in and out of the r/s when it suits her is what has taken its toll. It’s like I am constantly going through the grieving process.

Yes, I hear you.  This is what NC is for.  It takes contact off the table to give you time and space to tend your wounds.  For some, it's not just contact that's the problem, it's anticipating contact, feeling disappointed when anticipated contact doesn't materialize, or feeling startled by unanticipated contact.  Going NC can help with all of this.

[RomanticFool]

Skip,

Your assessment of my situation is not accurate. I never bullied my ex purely for sex. It was really about wanting more contact and to know that she cares. If this was purely about sex it would never have lasted as long as it has. Let me give you an example: Our most recent disagreement was over her assertion that she made to me a month ago: ‘I am here for the long haul.’ This is then immediately followed by monosyllabic responses from her. Had it just been about sex I wouldn’t give a damn about daily contact because she was making plans to meet me very soon. From my point of view I have never trusted that she cares about me because she dips in and out of the r/s when it suits her. I don’t want sex with her or anybody under those conditions. As sexually alluring as I find her what I crave is her love. I know what I mean by love: A deep and unending feeling that you are a person’s soulmate. A terrible sense of loss at the thought of that person not being in your life. A concern for that person’s well being and a desire to spend as much time as possible with them. A physical consummation to express that love. Sleepless nights when it is over. A terrible sadness because I miss her company and her presence in my life.

The reason I have been challenging with my ex is I know she doesn’t feel the same way I do but she would never either admit it or let me go. Interestingly enough now that she is becoming healthier and has stayed sober she has clearly decided that the r/s cannot work. It is my feeling that she has never been committed. I know what love is only too well and my attitude towards my ex has been the result of her saying words she doesn’t truly mean. I am nobody’s fool. Nor am I a convenience to be picked up and put down like an old toy. That is what I cannot stand about the situation and that has more to do with love than sex. If it was merely about sex I could have sweet talked her into bed over the last few years far more successfully than trying to get her to love me.

If my wife had cancer I would stand by her until the end. I don’t think that kind of love has anything to do with passion or sex. It has to do with caring about another human being and I would never walk away from her if she was ill. You are forgetting that our situation suits my wife probably more than it suits me. Otherwise she would leave. She left her previous r/s.

[RomanticFool]

Insom.

I don’t think we are going to contact each other again. I always felt this r/s would be over when she decides to let me go. I think her lack of concern to being cut off FB is a good barometer of where she is at. She has clearly found somebody else to supply her validation.

RF

[RomanticFool]

Skip,

I think this is a provocative and irresponsible thing for you to say.

You have tried to bully and manipulate her for years for more sex - to the point of her being suicidal.

You advised me yourself at the time that her suicide bid had nothing to do with our r/s. Given that she most likely has BPD traits who knows the psychological morass that was going on in her mind at the time. From what I know of her pathology she is a woman capable of making a suicide bid without any entanglement with me.

I resent and reject the notion that her bid was directly relatable to our r/s since I was not in contact with her at the time and there was no ‘bullying’ going on. If there was a suicide bid and neither one of us can know for sure since she told me very little detail about it, it is more likely there was a crisis in her life completely unconnected with me. I spent a lot of time last year beating myself up about this only to be told on here that it was most likely nothing to do with me and that by thinking it was somehow illustrated my own self-centredness and over played my importance in her life. Well you can’t have it both ways. I don’t really believe I was a factor in her suicide bid as she has a long history of mental health issues. I also think painting me as a sexual bully is an over simplification of the complexity of the r/s and ignores the hours and hours I have spent listening to my ex and trying to be loving and supportive. I can’t be her lap dog one minute and then a bully the next in order to justify a position on here.

I love this woman deeply and most of how I behaved towards her has been in frustration due to unrequited love. I am sure I have caused her pain and upset, just as she has me. But she is the one who decides to visit ST upon me, she is the one who professes love one minute and then withdraws it the next, she is the one who has brought me to the edge of despair with what I consider to be cruel and uncaring behaviour.

Consider this: Just a few weeks after declaring total commitment to me forever ie ‘The long haul’ she makes a decision to walk away because I told her that I was upset at the lack of contact. Does that sound like a woman who made a suicide bid because her lover deserted her as she claimed at the time? At best she is an unreliable witness at worst... .who knows? Certainly not me and I’ve known her for 16 years now.

[Skip]

Your assessment of my situation is not accurate. I never bullied my ex purely for sex. It was really about wanting more contact and to know that she cares.

Interestingly enough now that she is becoming healthier and has stayed sober she has clearly decided that the r/s cannot work. It is my feeling that she has never been committed.

I know what love is only too well and my attitude towards my ex has been the result of her saying words she doesn’t truly mean.  

If my wife had cancer I would stand by her until the end. I don’t think that kind of love has anything to do with passion or sex. It has to do with caring about another human being and I would never walk away from her if she was ill.

I know this is provocative... .I'm trying to help. Forget my words, let's go with yours... . 

Sixteen years of doing anything can normalize a set of behaviors or beliefs. We can easily distort on this.

I want to challenge you to rethink this narrative that is causing you so much suffering... .what was your affair, really... .was it a 16 year love partnership? was it something else?

A lot of people have studied long-term, long-distance affairs. They are fantasy relationships  - periodic get-togethers under very favorable circumstances and upbeat moods and where the partners get a slice of life that they covet but don't have in their marriage. There are no bills, issues with the children, moods, re-occuring conflict over failure to take out the trash, or not wanting to be touched. Often, the worth of the relationship is over-valued - it is seen as more than it is. Like Christmas day.

And the affair devalues the marriage. The day to day spouse can't live up to the fantasy and they feel the dissatisfaction and the breakdown in the marriage.

In time the affair which each admit is based on lies, deceit, selfishness, and disloyalty bumps up against its own reality. The partners start to experience and question each others character. They start to feel that the abusive things their partner has done to their spouse are slowly coming their way. Your affair partner said that you lead her to attempt suicide. True or not, this is how she felt. She has said that you bully her. manipulate her. You admit to this. You have said, time and time again, that your partner has another affair partner, that she is a liar, and that she has betrayed you/lead you on.

As time goes on, in an affair, you struggle more and more to recreate the fantasy world that the affair was based on - those periodic, idyllic, rendezvous - you also struggle with the marriage as it does not live up to the highs of the affair.

In short, you live in a world with little upside. The lies, deceit, selfishness, and disloyalty begin closing in on all sides. The fabric and foundation of the affair is breaking down.  The fabric and foundation of the marriage is breaking down.

This is where you are now. Living on the end of years and years of slow and steady breakdown.

Is your affair "the love of your life" as you say? Look at what you say and do to each other and say about each other. You have significant deep character issues with one another. She feels emotionally abused. You feel betrayed, lied to, deceived. Is this love? And there are the marriages... .

In  your marriage, you have cut yourself off emotionally with your wife because she does not live up to the passion of the affair. You have betrayed her and lied to her over and over again. You feel certain that she would be devastated by the truth of the last decade and would leave you. You have conveyed your deep rooted "you're not good enough" to her for years. Is this love?

My wife loves me there is no doubt. I think I love her but... .

She loves who she thinks you are. But if you sit down and say you had an affair... .that is a show stopper in any marriage. And then tell her it was for 13 years. And then tell her it was with the person you dated before you two married. Let her absorb that for a few weeks... .thinking back at how that played throughout all the years of your marriage... .she will be off the wall.

I know what I mean by love: A deep and unending feeling that you are a person’s soulmate. A terrible sense of loss at the thought of that person not being in your life. A concern for that person’s well being and a desire to spend as much time as possible with them. A physical consummation to express that love. Sleepless nights when it is over. A terrible sadness because I miss her company and her presence in my life.

16 years with one. 12 with another. With which of these women do you have a mutual love relationship with? Which do you have that strong foundation to carry forward in life?

You know the answer - you have said it over and over again. You stay with your wife for mostly practical reasons, but she's not your "soulmate". Maybe she could change or you could change, but you doubt it. Your say affair partner has no intention of leaving her marriage and the man she lives with 24-7 for the last 20 (?) years.

Remember the three legged stool metaphor we shared a year ago?



Your one partner is leg of this stool. Your other partner is two legs. Together, this is your marriage/relationship life. It has been your marriage/relationship life for over a decade and it has been leading no where for a long time. None of it works if you take a leg away from the stool. That is what you are fighting with, struggling with. Neither person is a complete partner for you. You have to have both to make it work.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=309713

Is there any way that this can resolved with either or both of these partners?

RM, I know you are heartbroken. I know you have affection or your wife at some level. Both partners have been in your life for well over a decade. Letting go of either relationship is painful. Trying to salvage either (or both relationships), as you say, isn't likely do-able. It's a very difficult situation... .very difficult.

[Skip]

One last thing. I'm not telling you what to do... .rather to think about what you have been doing and what it means.

A year ago, I really encouraged you to try again with your wife. But it's a year later, there was an almost new affair, and that should, I think, is a real eye opener. Couple that with your belief that your marriage can't ever be passionate and that your affair partner is your soulmate.

This is all very significant.

[RomanticFool]

I want to specifically address this point:

Is your affair "the love of your life" as you say? Look at what you say and do to each other and say about each other. You have significant deep character issues with one another. She feels emotionally abused. You feel betrayed, lied to, deceived. Is this love? And there are the marriages... .

I have been lied to from day one. I keep going back to this point because in my opinion this is the deepest flaw in both mine and my affair partner's characters.

I WAS SINGLE WHEN WE MET. SHE NEVER TOLD ME SHE WAS MARRIED UNTIL I HAD TURNED UP TO HER HOME TOWN. WE SLEPT TOGETHER THAT NIGHT AND SHE INVITED ME TO HER HOME. I DID NOT TAKE HER UP ON IT AND IT GAVE ME THE IMPRESSION THAT HER MARRIAGE WAS OVER.

I really want you to hear that because that is the source and justification of my resentment and grief in this situation. This invite over has never been repeated. I have questioned her repeatedly about it since then and she cannot give me an answer as to why she made the offer. That was the start of all of this.

We only knew each other for a couple of years the first time around. We were not in contact at any time when I met my wife until after we were married. I had known my wife for 6 years before the affair partner contacted me again, not long after the wedding.

To me those details are crucial because we are not talking about me being emotionally disconnected from my wife for the whole of our r/s. We are talking about me meeting a woman who blew my mind and rocked my world but was unavailable. Indeed through a very similar painful process I extricated myself from the hell of that r/s when I was younger and probably more vulnerable than I am now. I did that specifically because I did not want to be embroiled in an affair with a woman who was unavailable and constantly delivering ST to me. At the time I had no idea why. I took it very personally and was far more combative and 'bullying' with her back then than I have been this time around.

If a woman comes to me in good faith and tells me she loves me, as my affair partner did. If she tells me that she wants to be put on a pedestal and treated like a Goddess, as my affair partner did (which I actually dismissed at the time) then I am inclined to think it may have something to do with her feelings for me - at least back then I did. Given the fact that this went on for 2 years and she showed no sign of leaving her marriage or even getting close to me, despite several wonderful meet ups, it was clear to my younger self that she was not a reliable person. Her husband also became ill at this time and I felt guilt around that. So I disentangled myself from the chaos. I stepped away because she had a family and I knew she was not committed to me. I also knew she had a history of mental health problems and that she had tried to take her own life before. She also told me that her husband used to stop her from jumping out of windows or off her roof. So, I knew she was a sick person and I didn't want to carry on berating her for not loving me the way I needed.

However, he had made a huge impression on me and the way I felt about her had never been repeated with any woman. So when she came back into my life I stupidly assumed she was available. When we met up again she seemed to be a completely different person. Charming, engaged, a good listener and empathic. Nothing could be further from the truth. This was her version of love-bombing me again.

The rest of what followed was just more of the same of what I had already experienced. I ought to have known better, but I didn't.

[RomanticFool]

She only wants your attention when she turns on a switch like a pet dog - otherwise, she has a life to live with her husband and child.

This is exactly the way I see the r/s now. Unfortunately, even a pet dog needs to feel loved.

[RomanticFool]

  Skip

I acknowledge all of this and have had the stool analogy in my mind ever since we spoke about it. I think the beginnings I had with the ex have played into the present as I mentioned above.

Yes, an affair is a fantasy, but I often make my fantasies come true and for many of the last 6 years, I have thought about actually being with her. That it could become true. There was a time when she was in America and begged me to call her just so she could hear my voice. There are many other incidents where we discussed going away together and how much we love each other. All of this stuff kept me believing that she might at some point be committed to me. I have been the victim of my own romantic idealism. I should have seen the affair for what it is, an escape for her, but it meant so much more to me. My rescue fantasy kicked in, I wanted to save this damsel in distress and have her for myself.

Regarding my wife, I am not giving up on the r/s. I want to try and rekindle passion between us. It won't be easy but I have a strategy for doing so. I do not want to go back into the world of dating. I have a 12 year history with this woman which I do not want to give up on without at least trying to rekindle some passion.

She does know who I am. She just doesn't know my secrets. I am not the dishonest man who has affairs. Well I am, but that is not who I really want to be. As grief stricken as I am over the affair ending, I am also relieved. There are things that suggest to me that my wife and I have a chance. My wife has a good opinion of me, something that my affair partner never really did. My wife knows my history and we share alot of good things. I am not willing to throw in the towel on my marriage yet.

[RomanticFool]

Lastly, please have a look back to last year when my ex told me about her suicide bid and look back to what you told me. Notably that her suicide bid had nothing to do with me. I took those words to heart and I feel you are moving the goalposts a little by now saying that I triggered it. I was not in contact with her when she made her last suicide bid, if there actually was one. It was discussed at the time whether or not it was real or manipulation. You encouraged me to take it seriously, which I did, and I then looked into validating her feelings and being more empathic towards her. We kept on good terms for a while but I'm afraid it all went to hell again when she started visiting ST upon me and this time I told her to leave me alone. Which she is now doing. It is important to me because if she comes back with another suicide bid, are you saying that would be my fault too?

[Skip]

... .are you saying that would be my fault too?

I am only saying that she attributes her act (not me), in part or whole, to you. She has been clear on that.

I'm not saying that it is true - what I said last year still stands. What I am saying that this is how she sees you... .she tags you with this level of character deficiency. Think of it like your accusations of her having an affair on her affair - it's also most likely not true - but this is part of how you see her... .you tag her with this level of character deficiency.

You both see each other and having significant character issues. This happens in dual affairs over time.

I often make my fantasies come true and for many of the last 6 years, I have thought about actually being with her. That it could become true.

People aren't what they appear to be on an occasional, long distance, meet. That is the best of the best. She is human. She has struggles. A troubled child. Substance abuse. Suicidal ideation. Institutionalization. Infidelity. Pathological lying.

Were you going to make that go away? Was she (or you for that matter) be the picture of perfect that existed on this getaway dates?

The belief in this fantasy is what is betraying you... .more than anything she is doing.  Its the belief in this fantasy that is betraying your wife - she can't measure up to the fantasy.

Your wife can't measure uo toi the fantasy.

Your affair partner can measure up to the fantasy.

You cant measure up to the fantasy.

Have you ever heard it said that unrealistic expectations are premeditated resentments?

[RomanticFool]

And so to the very crux.

The belief in this fantasy is what is betraying you... .more than anything she is doing.  Its the belief in this fantasy that is betraying your wife - she can't measure up to the fantasy.

Why? Why have I allowed it to last for so long? Why have I allowed us both to be in the jaws of despair and keep perpetuating it? At first I thought it was as simple as just wanting her for sex, but I no longer think that. I also thought it was perhaps romantic idealism, but that was too simple also. Plus I've had women love me in my life. Why this woman? Emotional equals - yes, but then so is my wife probably... and I have far more empathy towards my wife.

I wanted to trust this woman. I wanted to be nice to this woman but she has done some of the most outrageous things I have ever encountered. Cruelty beyond my experience. Especially when I was younger, the ST she visited upon me after such wonderful times had me in despair. I am not a weak man, I had known suffering, but I couldn't bear it. I couldn't stand that somebody I imbued with so much desire and longing had behaved that way to to me.

So when she came back a second time. I needed to know WHY she had behaved as she had. I simply did not understand it. When she seemed to be completely different, I thought that perhaps she was THE ONE all along. I know that sounds ridiculous, self deceiving and verging on insane given all I know now, but that is how I felt. When she reconnected to me, I had no intention of embarking on an affair. In fact I brought my wedding photos on my phone to show her and talked at length about my wife. But deep down, I still had powerful feelings for her. Is all of this simply because she was a woman that I couldn't have? I don't know why the desire and fantasy has sustained. I guess my own self diagnosis of being a sex and love addict is the reason. I have been to SLAA meetings (Sex And Love Addicts Anonymous) and everybody talks about fantasy being such a strong part of it. What always floors me is the emotional savagery in my mind and body. The yearning, the longing, the pain and suffering. Half the time contacting her is simply that I want it to stop. Then we reconnect and all of the resentments kick in again over time. Hamster on a wheel.

Have you ever heard it said that unrealistic expectations are premeditated resentments?

I haven't heard that but it makes absolute sense. I wish I had understood that years ago. It might have helped.

I'm not saying that it is true - what I said last year still stands. What I am saying that this is how she sees you... .she tags you with this level of character deficiency. Think of it like your accusations of her having an affair on her affair - it's also most likely not true - but this is part of how you see her... .you tag her with this level of character deficiency.

You both see each other and having significant character issues. This happens in dual affairs over time.

This makes sense. We have both become entrenched in our opposing views of each other. She has always talked about me exposing her 'shortcomings' and I have always asked her for reassurance of love. She thinks I'm a bully and I think she is cruel towards me. It was all in the name of getting her to see my point of view ie how much I need her love. I know I've gone about it completely the wrong way, but even had I been the most validating and empathic person in the world, the fact is, she does not want what I wanted. She wants a diversion. I wanted a full on romance.

The problem arises that she has said many things (most recently that she was here for the 'long haul' that have kept me hooked and believing in the possibility. I finally called her out on the idea that she was committed to me in any way. That is what has driven her away this time. She has had enough of me undermining and challenging everything she says (or most of the time doesn't say). Yes, I have criticised her but she speaks about me as a person she loves and is committed to when I know and have always known that it is simply not true.

In fact I have been taken aback by how she has been able to cease all contact after me saying something fairly minor when viewed through the historical prism of our r/s. However, I think the final nail in the coffin was when I said I don't consider that we have a r/s. I think that and all of the other stuff has contributed to the destruction of the r/s. I challenged her to leave me alone and she has. I was still secretly hoping she wouldn't and then profess undying love, but she is not that kind of woman. In fact she has come back many many times when I have pushed her away but her year of drunken behaviour culminating in her going to a concert with another man and her ST at various crucial moments (to me) in the situation have all contributed to me realising that what I hoped for simply doesn't exist. It still doesn't stop me wanting her. The yearning and missing her is terrible. I am sick and tired of feeling desperate and missing her. I want the pain to stop.

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I finally called her out on the idea that she was committed to me in any way. That is what has driven her away this time. She has had enough of me undermining and challenging everything she says

 

The problem arises that she has said many things (most recently that she was here for the 'long haul' that have kept me hooked and believing in the possibility.

Core characteristic - people with BPD over emote. People with BPD say things without a lot of thought to the long term implications (poor executive function).

I encourage you to get active in helping other members here. It will help you see who she is and who you are and what you are doing. Its easy to see where others misstep - much harder to see it in ourselves.

[RomanticFool]

Core characteristic - people with BPD over emote. People with BPD say things without a lot of thought to the long term implications (poor executive function).

In many respects she is an ice queen and I am the one that over emotes. She is emotional when we are together and cold as ice when we are not. I feel that I am the one who suffers emotional turmoil over the silences. She seems to dip in and out just fine. I don't think I would be diagnosed with BPD. As emotional as I can be, most of the time I'm level headed and fair. This situation has caught me in a perpetual loop of yearning and pain. I need the answer to this quandary. I have come here for over a year and while I may understand more, I am still really no closer to understanding why this woman has bewitched my body and soul thus.

[RomanticFool]

Ok - Having said that I wouldn't be diagnosed with BPD, I just looked up the DSM definition and with the knowledge acquired on here, I feel I may have the following:

1. frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
2. a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
3. impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).
4.chronic feelings of emptiness.
5. inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (Not so much anymore but I did used to get angry alot in my 20's - However, I do not get into physical fights. I hate violence).

So, I would say that is 4 and a half out of 9.

What I really related to though are the significant impairments in personality function, particularly empathy, as you and i discussed... .and then this screamed out at me:

Intimacy: Intense, unstable, and conflicted close relationships, marked by mistrust, neediness, and anxious preoccupation with real or imagined abandonment; close relationships often viewed in extremes of idealization and devaluation and alternating between over involvement and withdrawal.

I find myself quite terrified by seeing these words written down in black and white.

[once removed]

I find myself quite terrified by seeing these words written down in black and white.

its okay. i did too. acceptance of the messy stuff can lead us to freedom if we use it.

not much has changed, RF, about your marriage, about your relationship with the other woman, about your emotional state. not saying youve made no progress in better understanding it, but the situation itself does not look different than when you arrived. i think youve said as much.

i remember that when you arrived, the subject of therapy came up a number of times. you were interested, but hadnt gotten around to it.

is it time to make it a top priority? i think it would help. i think that with a good year or so of therapy under your belt, then couples therapy might be a good idea to follow it.

what do you think?

[RomanticFool]

i remember that when you arrived, the subject of therapy came up a number of times. you were interested, but hadnt gotten around to it.

I am so all over the place in terms of work, I couldn't commit to long term therapy. Also, I have so many other things to deal with financially at the moment I would have to see a therapist on the NHS in the UK and to be frank, nobody is ever going to diagnose me with BPD. Having traits is one thing, but I am certainly not a fully blown BPD. I look at my ex and I see what the illness looks like a few stages on from me.

That is not to say that therapy wouldn't help me, of course it would. I will see my GP when I get back from the States and start putting the wheels in motion to get some kind of help. Last year when I was in a state of depression after the fall out from the ex's suicide bid, they sent me for counselling. He was a young lad in training and when i brought up the subject of BPD he immediately declared that I didn't have it.

I think the area of my worst dysfunction is in my love life. Everywhere else I manage stress and interpersonal relationships like an expert. This area of abandonment and rejection in my love life is where the schism in my personality resides. The other issues from the DSM list that apply have largely been dealt with in Alcoholics Anonymous.

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It will help you to help other members here. A support group is a two way street and we often learn as much in advising others as we do in being advised.

You have gotten good advice. You can't get you hands around some of it. If you help others and see yourself in them and give them advice, this will start to make sense.

[RomanticFool]

I have been helping other members. It works the same way as AA: give it away to keep it.

I can get my head around all of it, it's my emotions that struggle. As I know you are aware when one is in the midst of the thing it is all consuming. I am trying to find a way through without it occupying my every waking hour.

This is no longer just about the affair or my marriage, it is also about my own mental health, something I have neglected too much in favour of keeping the attachment going.

The best thing I can do at the moment is to focus on others, something which I am doing. Not just because I have received good advice, though that is part of it, but helping others helps to reduce obsessional behaviour and promote emotional sobriety.

I am grateful for the advice on here, but holding up the mirror in this way is intensely painful. I hope all of those who have read this thread will also get some value from it. For me it has been traumatic and revealing. I thank you for your time and patience.

[formflier]

RF,

How long has it been since you and your wife have been sexual?  Is that time-frame different from the time since last sexual intercourse?

How long has it been since you have expressed to your wife that you find her attractive?  Desirable? That you would like to have sex with her?

What are your memories of the last time you had sex with your wife?  When you think of that, do you smile, relax, get excited? 

As I read your post about a trial separation, it seemed very matter of fact... .very "OK".

Why not try a "trial marriage"?  Can that be a very matter of fact thing... very "OK"?  Trial marriage:  A month of having sex with your wife a couple times a week.  Other nights of massages and closeness and being OK with that not leading to sex.  Do some "date night" type activities.

Then at the end of a month take inventory and talk.

FF