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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: Mr & Mrs Dragon72 go to counselling (Part 1)  (Read 1017 times)
Dragon72
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« on: April 04, 2018, 10:35:54 AM »

A day of silent treatment yesterday during which all 3 of us (her, me & son) went to the park, but she chose to stay apart from us the whole time. Later she ate separately too.

This morning more monosyllabic treatment except to criticize me about how I was doing the hhousework.

Then she suddenly announced she had set up a meeting with a therapist. And we're heading there now.
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2018, 11:04:17 AM »

Should I tell the T that I think she shows signs of BPD?
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2018, 11:37:49 AM »

Should I tell the T that I think she shows signs of BPD?

Describe behavior in great detail... .ask the T for help in sorting out conclusions.  Describe how perplexing this is to you... .the impact on your feelings.

I would advise you to stay away from announcing your own conclusions.

FF
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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2018, 11:50:48 AM »


In the off chance that she announces she quits T or this is bad idea.  Stay dispassionate... .make it clear that you will keep going.

My wife "quit" several times... .once it was obvious it wasn't stopping me she would usually return.

FF
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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2018, 12:41:13 PM »

Then she suddenly announced she had set up a meeting with a therapist. And we're heading there now.

So she has set up therapy sessions with a therapist, wow & awesome !... .some random thoughts, and observations;

*Sometimes the pw/BPD (albeit undiagnosed) will try to "own" the "T" session, ie' try to paint you the non as black from the git-go, ie' blame blame blame blame... .so as to turn and direct the course of the session, and or subsequent sessions for further control and or subjugation of the non.

*Don't think that the first session is going to be the big break through, it will take a long time to even get at the core/root issues.

*"T" sessions may actually trigger worse behaviors from your BPD/w, be prepared for that.

*Is this, .going to be under the auspices of marriage counseling, relationship counseling, certainly not that your BPD/w is going to march into the office and announce that she has BPD and wants to be cured, what are your thoughts Dragon72?

*If she goes and then quits, and as formflier says, YOU keep going, and at that point all source data between you and the "T" is now classified, and not the liberty of your BPD/w to know about, unless you want to tell her, but beware here as well, as she may be "mining" for further control information to use against you, .further tools for subjugation (controls).

*If BPD/w protest that you are going without her, I would use the line, ."this is for me", and say nothing else.

*And to further concur with formflier, I would NOT say anything to the "T" about BPD, only answer what the "T" may ask, and then follow up with "what behaviors you are concerned with, relationship dynamics, short term/long term goals, and what to / and or want to work on;... .and or improve for the long-term emotional health of the relationship marriage"... .and leave it at that.

*I am very glad for you and your BPD/w that a therapy session is forthcoming, just be careful, this is not going to be easy, or a "quick fix"... .but good luck anyways!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

*I do find it very interesting that your BPD/w would set this up, after everything we have been following in your story thus far, .it does peak the curiosity, and I do sincerely hope it is a positive outcome for you and your family Dragon72

Keep us posted !

Red5


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“We are so used to our own history, we do not see it as remarkable or out of the ordinary, whereas others might see it as horrendous. Further, we tend to minimize that which we feel shameful about.” {Quote} Patrick J. Carnes / author,
Dragon72
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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2018, 09:48:02 PM »

Thanks for the words of encouragement all.

I really feel positive after our first session today!
I know it's very early in the process and really, I think my wife's problems are so deep-rooted, that I fear our relationship will never be a healthy one.  Nevertheless I feel good after today's first session.  Here's why:

I had my say first and I tried to stay as factual and as calm as possible.  I explained many of her behaviors, with examples, that fit into the BPD mold, without once mentioning the condition itself: fear of abandonment, jealousy, profound mistrust, fear of intimacy, difficulty in managing emotions, how I'm either 100% good or 100% bad in her eyes.  I explained my own wishes for a relationship: emotional intimacy, cooperation when trying to overcome challenges, a sense of interdependence, rather than control and dependence.  I confessed that I am naturally codependent and prone to making choices to keep the peace rather than imposing limits to protect what I think is right. I mentioned that recently when I have been clumsily trying to set boundaries that my wife has appeared to dial up the hostility.

My wife, of course dismissed all I said as lies and set about ranting about what an awful way she has been treated by me.  She explained how she is 100% victim and that she has no reason to feel anything she has done has contributed to our marriage problems.  It's all my fault, apparently. The therapist let her talk a good while, probably double my time, but I could see the therapist taking a keen interest in little give-aways that my wife said in her rant.  In fact, much of what my wife was saying seemed to confirm that she's displaying all the BPD traits that I set out earlier. 

The T picked her up on a few of the irrational things my wife was saying, which made me feel slightly vindicated, and also made me feel like hopefully, finally someone, apart from me (and you guys!) might be aware of what sort of person she is.

I think what really was clear from what my wife was saying was that she engages in a lot of catastrophic and  paranoid mind-reading.  The T picked up on that too. 

I got a real vibe from the T that she could see a lot of distorted thinking in what my wife was saying.

We talked about the money situation and I said that it was a big trigger and that cooperation had proven to be well nigh impossible. My wife kept insisting that I have stolen money from the family.

At the end of the session, the T invited us to suggest something to work on before next week's session.  Within a second or two my wife suggested "How to divide up the money".  I suggested, that maybe after barely communicating for nearly three weeks, we should work on starting to talk to eachother and in a civil manner. The T agreed with me that that was a better and more realistic goal to aim for.  I think my wife's behaviour in the session showed that she's not so much interested in a reconciliation with me, as a husband and a human being, as a regaining of control in the marriage.

She was really dysregulating during the session.  Throughout the session, my wife referred to me as "this man". I always referred to her by name.  Her lack of respect for me was clear.

Anyway, since the session ended, my wife has been grumpy and monosyllabic, only answering me with single words and only when absolutely necessary. I have tried to be cheerful, approachable and friendly with her, but I haven't been pushing it.  When I saw her heading upstairs to bed, I called after her "Good night!". She did answer with a "Good night" but it had the tone of a curse word.

We'll see what happens next week in our next session.  I don't expect progress any time soon. And I'm probably throwing away money on this.  But at least we're trying.
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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2018, 09:55:39 PM »

It's good that you are realistic about the therapy experience.

With patience and time, you'll either see improvement, or you'll gain insight into yourself and what you can do within the marriage and family dynamic (regardless of what your wife chooses).
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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2018, 06:37:06 AM »

  I think my wife's behaviour in the session showed that she's not so much interested in a reconciliation with me, as a husband and a human being, as a regaining of control in the marriage.
 

You are likely right on this.  Please use this knowledge to have and express empathy for your wife.

Imagine what it is like to really believe the rest of the world should be at your beck and call... .then have that world fall apart.

Good job shifting to communications... .vice money.

FF
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« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2018, 08:31:52 AM »

Control over the marriage or control over the money?
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« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2018, 08:44:23 AM »


My wife, of course dismissed all I said as lies and set about ranting about what an awful way she has been treated by me.  She explained how she is 100% victim and that she has no reason to feel anything she has done has contributed to our marriage problems.  It's all my fault, apparently.

The therapist let her talk a good while, probably double my time, but I could see the therapist taking a keen interest in little give-aways that my wife said in her rant.  In fact, much of what my wife was saying seemed to confirm that she's displaying all the BPD traits that I set out earlier. 

The T picked her up on a few of the irrational things my wife was saying, which made me feel slightly vindicated, .

I think what really was clear from what my wife was saying was that she engages in a lot of catastrophic and  paranoid mind-reading.  The T picked up on that too. 

I got a real vibe from the T that she could see a lot of distorted thinking in what my wife was saying.

I think my wife's behaviour in the session showed that she's not so much interested in a reconciliation with me, as a husband and a human being, as a regaining of control in the marriage.

She was really dysregulating during the session.  Throughout the session, my wife referred to me as "this man". I always referred to her by name.  Her lack of respect for me was clear.

We'll see what happens next week in our next session.  I don't expect progress any time soon. And I'm probably throwing away money on this.  But at least we're trying.

Hang in there Dragon72,

As I read your "after action report"... .it reads just as I would have expected, from what I have been reading in your posts, in regards to your relationship with your BPD wife.

From what I gather from your post, I think your T is very much already aware (BPD behavior traits) and on point as to what is going on, so that is a good thing.

To the aware, experienced and informed person (BPD, or any other pd), .it does not take very long for one to recognize these behaviors, patterns, and expressions in language, action, and as well voiced opinions as BPD exhibits itself almost immediately when the subject person is in the "que"... .ie' your BPD wife sitting in the hot seat as it were in the T's office... .but to have a third; educated / informed / professional / neutral party “privy to”; is pretty good medicine there !

In my humble opinion, I perceive and understand that BPD is a spectrum type disorder, and if there are so many as ten behavior traits (of)... .and if the person who exhibits; is displaying five or more traits of, then the further to the right is the shift in the spectrum... .towards... .bad choice of words maybe... ."malignancy"... .ie' not much chance of any type of "come to Jesus " moment, .but at least your situation, relationship, is being vetted out now to some degree via sessions with a Therapist... .it still puzzles me why your BPD wife would “all of a sudden” want that, but it’s none of my business beyond curiosity, but thank goodness anyways right !

 I only hope one day my own u/BPD wife would agree to this (T)... .but I know that she never will, too many other things going on right now, if I see her, on the spectrum line, left to right, as right is severity from left... .and I observe her behaviors, over time (ten years)... .then indeed my own wife is never going to change, in fact she may even get worse as her life problems (health issues), FOO, and many other variables far beyond my control, or ability to remedy take their toll.

Anyways Dragon, keep us posted, and good luck my friend !

Red5
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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2018, 10:59:53 AM »

Update:

Well the session with the T was probably a bit too much emotionally for my wife to handle.  She has now gone into full war mode. She announced at the breakfast table, by saying it to our son, that she and he are moving out of this house and in with her brother who lives half a mile away. And they "never coming back".

"OK", I said. "I don't want this to happen, but it's your choice.  I hope we are still going to the next therapy session. Are we?"
"You can go. I don't care. Are you going to keep paying for our son's school?"
"Of course I will."

She then began to tell me how awful I am to her, how I aways claim to be the victim, how I made a promise to her parents to look after her, and how I ruined everything.

She has not moved out yet, but has taken our son off to the shops to buy something he needed.
I just took a call in the house from her brother. We didn't really talk at all. He just asked if my wife was in and I said no but he could find her on her cellphone. He said thanks and we said bye.

So today could be the first day of my separation.  I feel very sad that it could mean that I will see much less of my darling son.  But, being honest, I don't feel the remotest bit of sadness that my relationship with my wife seems to have come to an end.  I think the bad times have outweighed the good by 1,000 to 1, and it has taken so much emotional effort and self sacrifice to get just a few moments of pleasantness between us.  My only way out was to begin to assert myself and set boundaries, and that has resulted in this situation.


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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2018, 11:11:23 AM »

Have you had a discussion with a Lawyer? 

Are you really ok with her living with him... .without you around... .and nothing to modify or monitor what she is turning your son into.


The biggest question for the L (IMO) would be about mandatory counseling for your son, wife and you.  That the counselor specifically evaluate and comment on parenting styles and decisions... .

Where this is going is that you and she will eventually allege that very different visions for how to raise your son... .you need to understand how courts view that.

FF
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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2018, 11:13:16 AM »



"OK", I said. "I don't want this to happen, but it's your choice.  I hope we are still going to the next therapy session. Are we?"
"You can go. I don't care. Are you going to keep paying for our son's school?"
"Of course I will."


Hey... .I would stop talking about or agreeing to unrelated issues... unless you are going to relate them.

I'll pay for school as long as we are in therapy... .(very appropriate I think).

Why reduce her anxiety about doing the wrong thing?

FF
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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2018, 11:51:31 AM »

I want my son to continue his schooling in the school where I work because it is one of the top 5 private English language schools in Mexico and I receive a huge scholarship for him to attend. 80% this year. going up to 90% next year, and 100% free after that so long as I am an employee.  This school will give him the best opportunities in life where we live. I don't want him to move to another school for his sake, not hers. And I will continue to make sure that he goes to this one whether or not we're in therapy. 

She has already started to badmouth me to him while I'm around, she has already been parenting badly while I'm around.  But I do not want to cut my son off from his mother and when she's alone with him I cannot control her actions.

I will arrange to see a lawyer a.s.a.p.  Especially because I think she might allege inappropriate behaviour. yesterday with the T she said that she doesn't like that our son sits on my lap because "of course he's going to feel his penis".  And remember just recently when she told our son who had his foot on my lap, while he was lying on top of the bed, to get his "foot off Daddy's penis".

I've read the books. I know she's going to come out with an all-out smear campaign.
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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2018, 12:45:42 PM »

Any smear campaign she might attempt won't sound good next to her do-sleeping with your son at age 4.
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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2018, 01:01:42 PM »



Listen... .you are doing the right thing with your sons schooling.

What I think you need to evaluate is how quickly you reassure your wife that her crazy ideas will have no impact on the parts of what you do... .that she wants to continue.


her  "I'm taking your son away... regardless of what you say... "

you "That makes me so sad... ."

her  "you will still pay for his school... right?"

you (old you)  of course i will... don't worry yourself in the least

you (new you) "gosh... I don't know, so much his happening so quickly.  I'll have to give it some thought.  Likely best for us to discuss this in our next therapy session."

Do you see the difference... .?

FF
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« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2018, 01:03:05 PM »


So... .wow... .what did T say about son sitting on lap and feeling penis?

Wow...


Hey... .any thought that your wife may have been abused growing up?  This seems really specific and really odd. 


FF
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« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2018, 01:21:30 PM »

When my wife mentioned that about my son sitting on my lap and feeling my penis, I saw the T's eyebrows jump up.  When my wife finished what she was saying, the T asked her some questions that revealed that my wife has a very complex and difficult relationship with the concept of sexual relations. The T then began to ask questions about her childhood. 

The T was savvy. I could see her reading a whole lots between the lines of what my wife was saying.

It has certainly occurred to me that my wife may have undergone some sort of traumatic sexual experience as a child.  I have also heard from one of her siblings that their mother was really mean to her when she was growing up.  But who knows? 

From many of my wife's behaviors, such as difficulty with intimacy, obsession with what people say about her, inability to relax, it's clear that she suffers from real core shame.  It's so sad.
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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2018, 01:58:27 PM »

  it's clear that she suffers from real core shame.  It's so sad.

Perhaps... .

Let the T guide you in figuring out core issues... .versus symptoms of core issues.  That is a delicate process.

So... .what kind of answers did your wife give that showed the complex ideas?

Which of these were you aware of and which ones were news to you?



Did your wife's issues with intimacy show up after kid was born, or were there some odd things before then.

Did the issue of your wife sleeping with the boy get mentioned or talked about in the session?

FF
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« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2018, 02:16:21 PM »

What suggested to the T the complicated relationship with sex?

The fact that she's been sharing a bed with her son rather than her husband.  That she mentioned she was a virgin until the age of 46 when she started seeing me.  That she has never had an orgasm. That she expressed disgust that, on the few occasions we managed to get someone to look after our son, I seemed to "only want to stay at home and have sex".

The issue of the impact on our son of her sleeping with him wasn't really discussed. The T's focus was more on her dysfunctional relationship with me.

My wife's intimacy issues did show up before our son was born. But I just thought they were either down to her relative inexperience, or the fact that she's a Christian goody-two-shoes or perhaps due to a painful but unmentioned past experience.  Either way, I felt I ought to be accepting of her whatever the reason.  That's what couple's do isn't it? Accept and love the other person, their good parts and their damaged parts?
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« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2018, 02:40:34 PM »


Were you aware she was a virgin when you two started your r/s?

Do you believe her?

How did she explain that?

(note to all... .not saying anything wrong with being a virgin at that age)

FF
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« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2018, 03:03:05 PM »

I wasn't aware she was a virgin when we started our rs. Actually I got her age slightly wrong. She was 43.
I do believe her. The first time, which she initiated and led, was pretty painful for her.  That's when I realised.
She has always been no good at sex. Not very active. Very passive. I don't think she ever saw it as fun or playful.

I agree with you, nothing wrong with being an virgin at 43.  A little unusual, but nothing wrong with it.
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« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2018, 04:06:17 PM »

Hi Dragon72.  What a difficult situation for you and your young son. 

You have received excellent support and feedback so I don't have much to say except to ask if you have thought about working out what days/evenings you get to have your son stay with you, including overnights?  I understand you do not want to keep him from his mother but he needs his Dad as well, especially as you are the stable parent.

Wishing you and yours the very best.
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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2018, 04:41:25 PM »


So... .

What is sex life like now?

Can you chart changes in sex life over the period of your relatonship.

If she never thought it was "fun"... .was there ever a time she enjoyed it? 

Do you see her view of sex having changed over the course of your r/s... .or relatively stable.

FF
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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2018, 04:54:15 PM »

We haven't done it since January.

Assuming it's all in the past now, she would want it every two or three months or so and we would do it maybe a couple of times that week, then another dry spell.  The longest dry spell lasted I think 7 months.

There were times when she seemed to be into it and enjoy it, but, as I said, it was all very missionary and passive. After the first couple of years of refusing it, she ended up enjoying me going down on her. 


But all in all, there was never a sense of "play" or "fooling around". 

She would always do it like this: she's come out of our son's room, undress in the dark in "our" bedroom, then (most often) text me, or phone me downstairs to call me up. ":)o you want to?" is how she used to phrase it.

After we'd finish, she would get straight out of the bed, clean up in the bathroom, say goodnight and go back to bed with our son.  No post coital cuddles.  I often felt a bit used as if I were some sort of rent-boy.
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« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2018, 06:20:11 PM »


So... any pattern or "reason" you could figure out she was ready?  Or any reason she would then quit?

It doesn't sound like there was any history of you being interested and she responding?

Boy... this is tough to wrap my head around how she would feel sometimes is OK and then other times she would need to withdraw.

Was there something in particular that she was after... or that you agreed to after sex?

FF
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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2018, 08:29:51 PM »

Whenever I expressed an interest/desire, she wasn't interested.  I think everything about her has to be on her terms.

I couldn't figure out a pattern.  Maybe it was at certain stages of the menstrual cycle. Some women get hornier on particular times of their cycle.  She would never talk about her menstrual cycle and never left any evidence of sanitary products either. 

We would do it generally when we were on good(ish) terms with each other.

AFAIK, there was not anything she was after, nor that I agreed to, but maybe I'm just not connecting the dots.  But I don't think she used to ask any special favors before or afterwards, so I don't think she used it to trade for a service.

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« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2018, 08:38:05 PM »

Update:
I got back home, to find her and our son at home.
"Weren't you going to go to your brother's?"
"That's going to be from Monday. Why, do you want us out sooner?"
"No, I don't want you out.  Will you be coming to the T on Wednesday?"
Silence.

Later, my son said that I need to give more money to Mommy because his mommy told him that I have lots.
I managed to persuade my wife to listen to me as I showed her the online bank statement and explained the outgoings and current balance. 

I finished by saying, "So you can see now how much we have and maybe that will help you to understand why I'm being very careful with it right now".

She listened impassively, but did pay attention, however it was with a "sick and tired" expression on her face. When I finished, she said, "It's your money" and walked off.

At least she listened. Every time I have tried that in the past, she has refused to hear a word.
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GD39
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 77


« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2018, 12:11:37 PM »

In the off chance that she announces she quits T or this is bad idea.  Stay dispassionate... .make it clear that you will keep going.

My wife "quit" several times... .once it was obvious it wasn't stopping me she would usually return.

FF


You are the guru! I need to learn that!
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GD39
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 77


« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2018, 12:12:09 PM »

I am really happy for you Dragon. I sure hope it works for you.
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