BPDbf just called me in hysterics he failed another test in 1 of his classes

[lostandconfused6]

my BPDbf just called me in hysterics he failed another test in 1 of his classes it was a take home test that he worked on for 3 days and he checked and rechecked it... .How do i respond to this?

I know he is wayyyyy over doing his studying and work it was a 6 problem test and he worked on it for about 18 hours... .but i don't know how to tell him that without making things worse... .

He is talking about killing himself now and will not stop crying i don't know what to do... .

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[isilme]

Is there any way you can go see him in person?  A person in an emotional crisis will often respond better if you are physically present than if you try to talk to them or text them. 

1 - you can't "fix" it.  Don't offer solutions, not while he is this upset.  Doing so sounds like you are telling him he's wrong to be upset, which is invalidating. 

2 - Tell him you can hear how upset he is.  If you are able to be present physically, see if you can hold him, encourage him to talk as much as he can.  Validate how he is feeling when the comments are valid - do NOT validate desires to self-harm, or the invalid. 

3 - try to simply be there to get him to a point of relative calm.  THEN ask about possibilities for a re-test, for extra credit, he might be able to take. 

Also, is he a high achiever at school?  Is it possible one bad test won't make him fail a class?  I know many advanced degrees student who have their self esteem take a big hit simply from getting less than 100 on an exam, like a 95 is not good enough for them. 

[lostandconfused6]

Unfortunately i can't be there in person i am at work... .

He puts an extreme amount of pressure on himself to do well in school he hinges his whole life, happiness, and "success" on school... .this will be his 5th degree all of them are in different fields... .and none have panned out he has hated every job he has ever had... .and thinks this last 1 is it and it's going to be the one that makes everything better... .

Just from observing him and how he is in school and the field he i trying to get a degree in now with his age he is not likely to find a job in it with no experience and he has said this a few times and said he needs to make a plan B well i think it may be time to have plan B come into effect he is taking 2 classes and so overwhelmed he can't function some days... .

i very nicely told him that he may be hinging his happiness and success on the wrong things, he was told his whole life by his family that school is the only thing that matters, and since it hasn't worked out for him this far it may be time to take another approach and come up with another plan... .he seemed receptive... .

This just goes back to 34 years of bad, wrong, terrible, self serving, and dishonest advice that has been drilled into him by his family... .and as i've said in my previous posts as long as he is living with his family he isn't going to make progress... .he has said on his own that he knows his family does no real good for him and they only want him to be successful on their terms, but it's his family and he can't create boundaries and for some reason can't stop letting them get into his head... .i come from an amazing family and i know that's what he wants but unfortunately i don't think that's ever going to happen for him with them

He has calmed down... .of course now he has stated he is going to have a bad day no matter what

[isilme]

Good that he has calmed down.

What do you propose to him as a Plan B?

he has said on his own that he knows his family does no real good for him and they only want him to be successful on their terms, but it's his family and he can't create boundaries and for some reason can't stop letting them get into his head

My family was very abusive, and I was only able to stop giving them space in my head and become a somewhat healthier person mentally by going full No Contact.  I've been NC for almost 2 decades with my sociopath father and at least a decade with my waif/queen mother. 

I've noticed that a lot of people can't do that because "family" is a magic word that means they get to treat you however they want due to shared DNA.  I like to ask people if I had a BF that did certain things to me or had certain repeat toxic behaviors (stole my identity, put my name on hot checks, was always getting arrested, evicted, and losing jobs, physically and emotionally abused me), would they insist I stay in contact with him?  Then, when they say, "of course not!" I tell them my MOTHER did all of that.  So I am not in contact with her. 

Creating boundaries is difficult, and family is often so enmeshed into who we are that untangling them from us is hard, especially since most people maintain some form of contact.  Living too close, or with them, makes it even harder.

So I surmise he is about 34 years old, he has focused on school as an end in itself, with little to no thought about what to do once he is out of school for good.  This is pretty common (I work at a college  - I think college is helpful for certain careers and certainly the sciences and engineering, but other things I think a 2-year degree would be fine - don't tell my boss!).

All you can really do is kindly tell him other options to find happiness or at least feelings of accomplishment.  Maybe encourage him in very small activities and tasks they he can learn to feel good about completing, and then see if that can translate to bigger things?

[lostandconfused6]

i just spent 2.5 hours on the phone with him... .all while trying to do my job... .but anyway he is calm and not making self harm threats so i feel that was a win

Plan B would be him sending out his resume and perusing jobs and he put this plan in place a couple weeks ago but hasn't really done anything in regards to it... .

his family is a huge problem  his mom is over baring and she won't ever let him "sink or swim" she throws him a life raft at the smallest sign of a struggle... .she won't cut the cord... .and like you said because it is family he feels no matter what he has to stick by them and do whatever they ask... my parents left their family when they were 17 and 20 and moved 2000 miles away and it was the best choice they ever made and i wish he would just sit down and talk to my parents more... .his mom is threatened by me because unlike his exs shes knows with me when he leaves he isn't coming back this time because of where i am in life and just my mentality there will be no failing and no "running home" so she will never push him to spend more time with me or back off and allow him to have the chance to not have to feel guilty for not spending time with her or answering her 14 calls in a row... .his dad is just inconsiderate and a jerk (that's being nice) he thinks i'm the spawn of satan and my BPDbf just needs to focus on school and not worry about anything else, unless of course it's something he asks him to do, he will tell his dad he has to study his dad will go up in the attic start hammering a drilling my BPDbf will ask him to stop he does for about 20 min then starts again and says he forgot this goes on for days... .his dad verbally abuses his mother and my BPDbf feels the needs to protect her because she won't do anything about it... .this has been going on for 20+ years at this point it's pointless to try to do anything about it all it does is create more drama and BS i also feel it is another excuse for him not to leave home... .my therapist and myself feel his mom is a huge reason for his BPD

he will be 35 this year he has a military background and has a chemistry, biology, bsn, and process tech degree and is going for his chemical engineering degree he is in his 2nd semester and only taking 2 classes because he had to drop 1 last week and is struggling ALOT! he drives 1hr45min there and 1hr45min home and that alone sends him into a rage everyday because of traffic or something another driver does ... .his moms suggestion drop all classes but 1 (this will mean it takes him longer to finish and he stays home longer) my suggestion move closer to school find a cheap apartment and he can focus more on school instead of spending 4 hours a day in a car... .between gas,oil changes, and wear and tear on his,very expensive ultra luxury, car it would equal what he would spend on rent... .

with his degrees and back ground he can get a very lucrative job now in the same industry as an engineer and get his life started... .it's almost like he stays in school because it's familiar and comfortable but he is so miserable in his life because he isn't where he wants to be... .he tells me he used to being miserable and it's what he deserves which also reflects in his home life he said "i am comfortably miserable at my house"

selfishly i want him to figure things out because my life is on hold in some aspects... .i'm not getting younger i'll be 31 soon and i want marriage and babies... .he knows this and has from day 1... .but he feels he has to have a the job he wants before that happens... .i agree with that for children but not for marriage... .maybe that's what will change his direction? he has a real family to support? idk at this point... .today has exhausted me... .now i'm on a conference call for work trying to pay attention while his problems and well being are consuming my mind... .he has no idea the toll his issues take on me and if i told him he would say "well i don't tell you to do it so i won't tell you anything anymore"

it's just a struggle that has almost become routine to me and i just schedule it into my day

[isilme]

it's almost like he stays in school because it's familiar and comfortable

Yup.  It's a lot easier to do what we know, even if we dislike it, than to try something new and take a risk.

Having BPD means a lot of fear of failure, rejection, blame, shame at not succeeding, and fault.  My H often will avoid starting something out of fear of failing, and then get mad last minute when it can no longer be avoided and do a rush job, get mad at the poor quality of the rush job, and have a breakdown.  It's taken a very long time to extoll the virtues of planning ahead, and when possible, just because it gives ME peace of mind, I take on a disproportionate level of work just to prevent a lot fo last-minute drama.

H got so mad at school, at the fact he was approaching age 30, at a lot of things, he dropped out of school, gave up on work, for a few years.  Lucky (?) for me, he was not living at home where his mother, who DOES mean well, would have alternated between babying him and then being mean and forcing him into jobs he hated, and instead got a dose of friends making comments about him being lazy and a mooch on me ()out of my earshot) which seemed to finally kick him in the butt to get a part-time job.  Which built his confidence enough to get a full-time job.  Which then, along with being in his 30s by then, pushed him into finally finishing that degree he was only 3 classes shy of completing.  And finally, he was in a place for things important to me, like a proposal and marriage. 

I will say his feelings of being a "man" by having a job/career are important for him to be able to grow.  Thanks to my terrible upbringing, kids have never been high on my list of things I had to have - I fear I'd make all the same mistakes as my parents, or all new ones just as bad.  So for me, waiting till age 39 to get married was okay, even though we started dating at 19 (yay, BPD). 

Your BF needs to know if he wants a job before marriage, and you want marriage and kids, then the clock is ticking so to speak (obviously you don't want to frighten him, or trigger another incident... .but a lot of guys know very little about when babies are healthy, when it is possible to have but hard.  I saw a friend have 6 miscarriages before finally having her one son because she got married at age 40 but insisted on that baby.  It was hard.)

I know this sounds sneaky, but for my H, oblique comments seem the best, like casual mentions of things rather than me out and out stating something - that can start a fight, or make me sound like his mom. 

Maybe you can clip a lot of jobs and mention "Wow, there's a lot of openings in your field right now!  that's pretty cool, isn't it?  You qualify for a lot of these even WITHOUT (insert current degree name)"  I'd also maybe be like, "Oh look, this is a cool resume template.  I should save it in case either of us wants to use it."  It sounds dorky, but if you manage to not turn him off immediately with something that can sound invalidating or demanding, it may sink in. 

Hope he can break free of the family-trap.

[lostandconfused6]

That's what his mom does babys him and pushes things on him that she thinks are best for him or serve her the best... .that's where the nursing degree came from and honestly when these issues he has with anger and anxiety really started... .she's a nurse and it was good enough for her so she told him it would good enough for him too... .she sold him a dream

That's my whole thing is the age for having babies i have a son that will 10 in 2 weeks and i honestly don't want to have children after 34... .IVF is a must for us already because of my MS... .I feel like the lack of planning ahead and just time management in general hinders him a lot and it kills me to be able to do something to easily and to watch him literally not be able to do it at all... .

i know this sounds selfish and conceited but if he lived with me or just spent more that 16 hours a week with me i feel like i could get him on a better track he spent a day with me recently that i was off of work and the whole time we were together i was getting texts phone calls and emails to handle and fix things... .he said i had no idea how much you do in a day i said you think this is alot it's way worse when i'm actually in the office... .i am 30 years old and run a company... .i will never apologize for my success because i worked my butt off to get here (having my son i wouldn't give myself an option to be a statistical single mom or to fail, i have someone watching me all the time that depends on me) but i also feel that in some ways i do emasculate my BF that's why i don't throw in his face how much money i make or ever bring up how he doesn't work, i couldn't bring myself to do that to him

I was upset a few weeks ago and told him my life is at a stand still right now i'm waiting for him to tell me what the next step is... .and he said everything he is doing he is doing for us and our future and he's sorry if he hasn't made that clear... .i just wish he would wake up 1 day soon and say hey i need to get a job and get it together so we can get our life started

i am the queen of planting seeds in his head... .not sure if it's the right thing to do but i find it usually works... .

i'll send him job listings from time to time he always says thank you and that he will send his resume... .he even hired a lady to write his resume about a year ago when he quit his job before he decided to go back to school again... .i told him it doesn't hurt to look for jobs while he's in school at the very least he may find a future opportunity and at the most he will get a job and not have to keep building up debt in school loans and he can start to get into a better place for him and then other things will follow... .

i dont' want to flat out discourage him from school but in a way i kind of am because he is at least 2 years from finishing and he will be nearly 40... .

[Radcliff]

lostandconfused6,

I was on your other thread, and just found this one, which gives a lot of additional information to understand your situation, but I wanted to tune in.

You have an impressive amount of empathy and care for your boyfriend.  I can feel the frustration you are experiencing in not being able to move forward with life.

When I read that you'd taken 2.5 hours during the workday to comfort him, I was going to caution you about establishing work boundaries.  Then I read that you are the Boss!  That's helpful in a way, but as you know, leading is a tough business, and if folks feel like your attention is elsewhere, it will lead to trouble.  Our pwBPD are often more robust than we think.  You are extremely thoughtful about these things, and it's late at night as I'm typing, so let me gently ask if there is a risk of you babying him as well?

WW

[isilme]

WW has a good point there.

It was really hard, but part of how my H ended up dropping out of school and quitting work for a while, was that I simply stopped playing 2nd mother as much as I was able, and "let him fail" as I could.  I handled things that would affect me adversely if they failed (paying rent, bills, etc). but if he decided to skip class, to get in a fight with the manager's son at work, I could not stop him, I just told him he had to do what he had to do.  If he chose to not study, I no longer made him study guides (we started school together. Literally, met at orientation.  When we had classes together, I made guides for ME, but made him use them as well, and he'd pass those classes.  The ones I did not share, he struggled).  I graduated 12 years before him and got my butt into the workforce.  It was not a fun time, but I realized he needed to fail a little.  When he stated unhappiness with the situations he made for himself, that's when I would help him get a resume ready.  Remind him to go turn it in.  It's a tightrope act, being helpful but trying to not enable.  I had to let him WANT change before I could assist him in making it.  And ultimately, he found jobs on his own, applied and got them.  Only one did I find and send him a link to.  And he's been able to take some amount of pride from this, which in turn helped him grow.

Granted, I am a pretty passive person, and also, as I said, that biological clock has not been a big factor for me.  I wanted marriage, but was (mostly) okay waiting for it, and finally, I made peace with never having it if it meant we could be happy on many other fronts. 

You have a plan.  His mom has a plan.  What is HIS plan?  Has he even stated he has one, beyond I go to school and want to get a job?  What job?  What are priorities for him? 

i also feel that in some ways i do emasculate my BF that's why i don't throw in his face how much money i make or ever bring up how he doesn't work, i couldn't bring myself to do that to him

  But he DOES know you make your own way.  He likely has others tell him thigns that are less than encouraging about youstaying with him, being good for him.  I started working FT 10 years before my H.  He makes decent money for this area, but I will always make a little more simply from being in the workforce longer and taking no time off.  I know this hurts him even though I never mention it - he does. 

What ways other than being independent do you feel you emasculate him?  Is there any way to encourage him to get out of his parents home?  Mostly you are facing a "failure to launch" - he's not had any reason to fully grow up. 

[lostandconfused6]

lostandconfused6,

I was on your other thread, and just found this one, which gives a lot of additional information to understand your situation, but I wanted to tune in.

You have an impressive amount of empathy and care for your boyfriend.  I can feel the frustration you are experiencing in not being able to move forward with life.

When I read that you'd taken 2.5 hours during the workday to comfort him, I was going to caution you about establishing work boundaries.  Then I read that you are the Boss!  That's helpful in a way, but as you know, leading is a tough business, and if folks feel like your attention is elsewhere, it will lead to trouble.  Our pwBPD are often more robust than we think.  You are extremely thoughtful about these things, and it's late at night as I'm typing, so let me gently ask if there is a risk of you babying him as well?


WW

you do make a good point... .i do need to set work boundaries thankfully i was able to go to lunch for half of the 2.5 hours and the other half i shut my office door like i was in a meeting or on a conference call and answered emails and texts as they came in. I have become the master of multi tasking and juggling everything... .but at some point it's to much even for me... .and he has made me feel bad for having to handle work things when he wants to talk and i put my foot down about it... .of course his response was "fine i won't call you at all then"... .he will calm down after a bit and things will go back to normal... .

I feel sometimes i baby him but about 40% of the time i don't give into his manipulation and "victim playing" and i will call him out on it... .  yesterday he was genuinely upset and it broke my heart because he does try with school... .and i tired to help in whatever way i could before it spilled into the rest of his life... .i just feel like so much of this can be resolved if we just lived together i know i sound like a pushy crazy desperate girl but i do genuinely feel i am the best and most stable person for him to be around... ..

[lostandconfused6]

isilme

i feel us not living together hurts us more than helps us... .i think it would be much easier for me to "let him sink" a little bit more now if i tell him something he doesn't like he will just hang up the phone not talk to me for how ever long he sees fit then sweeps it under the rug or just run away from any real issue or situation he has to deal with... .and at some point in there he will talk to his mom or dad or "other people" (i feel those are made up because he literally has no friends) and they will have gotten in his head and agreed with him just to pacify him so of course he thinks he's right then i get the speech about how wrong i am and everyone sees his side... .last night he actually snapped on me because of a hypothetical situation involving strangers on the street... .he screamed i'm wrong about 10 times and told me i'm selfish and he doesn't know why he wastes his time with me because no good will come of it and he knows i would never take a bullet for him if iwon't even break up a fist fight between strangers... .

Again with the marriage thing i feel like if we lived together and could make progress i wouldn't push the marriage thing... .but babies are a definite for me this actually ties into his plan  he says he wants nothing more to get settled in a job, marry me, and have little girls and that's why he's doing what he is doing... .now if he's mad at me he will say he will never marry a terrible person like me but i try not to let it get to me anymore and i'll ask when he's calm if he's still sticking to the same plan as before...

I am more than sure his dad makes comments to him about me... .and i know his family makes him feel like he doesn't deserve anything good... .and they will paint me black the first chance they get... .they will hear him raise his voice at me and his mom says oh you don't need to deal with that or he will tell her we are arguing while he is at my house and she will say get up and leave she surely can't stop you... .he also tends to hide a lot of facts and things he does from his mom because he doesn;t want to look like a crappy person, he told me that in his own words. Other times like i have said before they agree with him so they don't have to deal with him.

I am at a loss for how to encourage him to get out of there honestly... .he keeps saying when he gets this lawsuit settlement he will be comfortable with the amount of money he has to be able to leave... .he flat out asked me yesterday to help him see way the things i see them and handle things like i do... .we will see how much he means that 

[Radcliff]

... .after yesterday and last night i feel that he needs to not be alone but he needs to be in a stable enviroment and i do feel that would be with me but i would be ok with him just getting away from the toxic situation he lives in now

Hi lostandconfused6, I'll follow your lead and focus on this thread.  OK, so you've identified two possibilities -- him moving in with you, and him moving somewhere else, perhaps to his own apartment or with roommates.

What are the benefits and drawbacks of him moving in with you versus moving out independently for a period?

WW

[isilme]

Has he EVER lived away from home?  Dorms?  Summer Camp?

I think either living on his own (or with roommates) a bit would be beneficial to his growth, before moving in with you - I'd hope it could help you avoid some of the growing pains I went through    He might go through an 'I've got the milk for free" period, unless marriage/children is a set goal at the start, with a timeline.  But that puts you in a situation to be in a "controlling", replacement-mom position I am sure you want to avoid. 

But I agree that him not living with his parents is a big step, even if that means moving straight in with you. 

Is your current home big enough for you both?  Would he like to go apartment hunting together?

You say he has been isolated from really having friends (BPD0type parents do this, mine did).  Is there any way you can encourage friends?  Do you have "couples-friends" you can set up dinners and other things with and see if he can bond with any of the guys?  As a child of BPD parents, and from what you've told me about his he sounds like he is, I can tell you that the enmeshment in your family and fears they will disapprove and not love is very strong.  Only when I DID get to high school and college, and their marriage finally disintegrated, was I able to start to break free.  Your BF does not seem to have had that distance made for him, and so he's stuck in the same mode he's probably bee in since he was 10 years old.  Go to school.  Make mom and dad happy.  Repeat.  He likely feels guilty for wanting to have his own life as an adult man. 

Change is very hard for someone with BPD, even if they are miserable (it's hard for all of us).  I was amazed H was receptive to buying a house - it took us getting just uncomfortable enough in our apartment for him to catch on to the idea.  I think your BF needs to see bonuses for living away from home, but it will be hard because it sounds like that umbilical cord is tied pretty tight.

[lostandconfused6]

Hi lostandconfused6, I'll follow your lead and focus on this thread.  OK, so you've identified two possibilities -- him moving in with you, and him moving somewhere else, perhaps to his own apartment or with roommates.

What are the benefits and drawbacks of him moving in with you versus moving out independently for a period?

WW

Roommates would def be a no he is very OCD and doesn't deal well with different personalities and things of that nature also when he wants quiet he wants quiet i feel it would end in rages and more obstacles... .

Draw backs of him moving in with me would be me becoming his "scape goat" even more so or possible resentment or more emasculation the benefits would be having me as a support system, having someone there for him that is capable of being emotionally supportive and willing to learn the tools that are needed to help and care for him, and a much less chaotic and stressful environment.  Him being in a place by himself i feel the drawbacks would be him having no  structure or support and being alone (which he says he likes but then complains about it) benefits would be no one else to blame anything on and being away from the stress he lives in now... that was off the cuff but i think i covered the basics of the good and bad

[lostandconfused6]

Isilme

Yes he has multiple times... .unfortunately most of those times involved a girl, either he got the place because the girl was in a desperate situation (that was usually BS) or he was living on his own and the girl weaseled her way in, he moved in with 1 girl and her awesome family (that's sarcasm) or he jumped the gun and moved in with a girl because she pressured him to do that (that was the last relationship he was in before me) and every time it has turned into him running home... .in mu opinion he could have very well just found another place,especially since he paid all the bills when he lived with someone anyway, but his parents make it wayyyy to easy for him to be able to come home. 

I have asked very nicely for him to just start spending more time with me so we can avoid most problems that could arise when we do live together... .he agrees it's a good idea and sometimes he makes the effort to spend more time but more often than not he doesn't. I don't want to replace his mom and i try so hard not to be like her  but sometimes it's hard not to sound like a mom in general . I think him living on his own would allow more flexibility for me and him to see each other more also i could go there he can come to my place and things like that.

My house is plenty big enough but i have also suggested that we look for houses to rent together, apartments in our area are way over priced and it's more logical to just buy one but since some things are still uncertain i'm not going to push that. He has been much more open to talking about houses and living together lately he has actually brought it up on his own a few times the last couple of days. Last night we had a good night and we were talking and his family came up and i had very nicely said "i don't want you to think i am trying to bash your family when i say this i am simply looking at it from an outsiders POV, you aren't going to be able to move forward and grow when you are stuck in such a stressful negative drama filled environment, good or bad intentions aside at some point everyday you are angry,stressed, anxious, or upset because of your parents doings, yes this is normal to have some family problems here and there and be upset with your parents but it should never be a daily thing. Unfortunately for you it is and it's not ok"  his response was i know you are right i just want to be in a position where i can afford to live on my own and by the things i want and buy you the things you want and i said you already are in a position to do that you just have to set down and look at what you spend now weekly and which of those expenses could be cut down or cut completely out. I also told him we are a team and we are there to support each other and work together and i will more than happily pay half of everything or we divide the bills he pays rent i pay everything else or whatever works. He said maybe getting a job in 1 of the fields i have a degree in would allow for that to happen (it can happen now i know how much money he has coming in but whatever) and i said yes definitely. I left it at that because i didn't want to push to much... .also i dont' want to get my hopes up to much because i have been let down so much

as far as friends go we have a ton of couples friends and all the guys like him, he doesn't ever reach out to them and when they ask him to hang out or anything he is always busy he said the time he does have is spent on school or with me, but he always says yes to group outings and get togethers. His parents sure were quick to push friendship on him with that other girl though... .supposedly they don't know what happened between them or the issues she has caused with us but i have no clue what's true in regards to that... .My family is overly accommodating and accepting of him no matter what but i do think he still has fears about it, almost like he doesn't want to get close to them then disappoint them if something doesn't work out, i also feel he may embarrassed because he isn't as successful as he feels he should be and he feels i deserve more. His family allows no distance at all he's with me 1.5-2 days a week and his parents are blowing his phone up every 30 minutes... .he carries a lot of guilt and responsibility for things and he feels he owes his mom for the things she has done for him and it's a catch 22 because i feel that  is exactly why she did them... .not to be a good person to make sure he stayed owing her and feeling obligated... .

The biggest thing he needs to over come is the fear of having to run back home if he leaves again... .if you have any idea on how i can help him over come that or things i could say or do i would appreciate the help.

[Radcliff]

lostandconfused6,

If he moved in with you, and didn't change at all, could you be happy?

WW

[lostandconfused6]

lostandconfused6,

If he moved in with you, and didn't change at all, could you be happy?

WW

Honestly, no but i feel it is worth a shot so i can say we tried everything

[Radcliff]

Honestly, no but i feel it is worth a shot so i can say we tried everything

OK, it's good that you're clear on that.  You see where I'm going with this... .if he moves in, and you're not happy, you're in a tough spot.  You likely will still love him.  That awful, ambiguous, middle ground where you're not happy but it's tough to end it can go on for a long time.

So he's having trouble with separating from his FOO.  Seems like he needs to get out of that situation.  You want the best for him, and for your relationship.  You also want to help him.  Is it possible that cheering and supporting him to live independently for, say, a year, as a first step might be a gift that you can give to him that boosts his confidence, lets him mature (possibly better, and at less risk to you) and sets you two up for a stronger future?

WW

[lostandconfused6]

OK, it's good that you're clear on that.  You see where I'm going with this... .if he moves in, and you're not happy, you're in a tough spot.  You likely will still love him.  That awful, ambiguous, middle ground where you're not happy but it's tough to end it can go on for a long time.

So he's having trouble with separating from his FOO.  Seems like he needs to get out of that situation.  You want the best for him, and for your relationship.  You also want to help him.  Is it possible that cheering and supporting him to live independently for, say, a year, as a first step might be a gift that you can give to him that boosts his confidence, lets him mature (possibly better, and at less risk to you) and sets you two up for a stronger future?

WW

Oh yes absolutely, and i tell him that all the time... .i rarely mention him living with me, but i also don't make it sound like it's not what i want i try my best to leave it up to him to talk about us moving in together. i tell him that i will help him find an affordable place to live that is within a reasonable distance for school and he can sign a 6 month lease then decide what he wants to do after that. Now if he makes the decision to get a job and no longer go to school he has said we will be moving in together.

I have found when i give "logical responses" to the things i consider excuses from him he will snap at me and say stop pushing me stop pressuring me example:

Him:if i get this settlement in October there is nothing standing in my way from moving out
ME: even if you don't you'll find a way to make it work to be able to get out of there
Him: stop it you are pushing me don't ever say that again i will do it when i am ready

idk if it's BPD or if it's him just being a jerk that can't stand being called out on his BS (i am the only person in his life that doesn't sugar coat things and agree with everything he says just so i don't have to deal with him and he can't stand it sometimes)

[Radcliff]

I have found when i give "logical responses" to the things i consider excuses from him he will snap at me and say stop pushing me stop pressuring me example:

Him:if i get this settlement in October there is nothing standing in my way from moving out
ME: even if you don't you'll find a way to make it work to be able to get out of there
Him: stop it you are pushing me don't ever say that again i will do it when i am ready

idk if it's BPD or if it's him just being a jerk that can't stand being called out on his BS (i am the only person in his life that doesn't sugar coat things and agree with everything he says just so i don't have to deal with him and he can't stand it sometimes)

I can totally see that interaction from your standpoint.  He's saying he needs the settlement to move out, and you are supporting him by saying that he is so capable that he doesn't even need the settlement.  To us "nons" that sounds like you are the wind beneath his wings.

OK, now put that into the "BPD translator."  How do you think he might hear what you said?

WW

[lostandconfused6]

i had to think about this one a little bit and not go to over board with it

i think he heard "you need to just get out of there now because your family is ruining your life and i don't care how you do it or where you go as long as you are away from them"

[Radcliff]

i had to think about this one a little bit and not go to over board with it

i think he heard "you need to just get out of there now because your family is ruining your life and i don't care how you do it or where you go as long as you are away from them"

Yes, that's similar to what I was thinking, something like, "You shouldn't have to have the settlement, you're lame for not leaving no matter what."  Of course, a big part of him probably does feel lame, so shame lands on him like a ton of bricks and he lashes out.

I find these situations to be very hard to spot in the middle of the action.  I think it takes a lot of practice, and I'm still not great at it.  You have to say the "supportive" thing you want to say to yourself silently first, then figure out the ways it could be taken badly, then adjust.  I don't think that fast.  Perhaps a safe habit to develop is to reflexively be supportive of their sentiment if we can do it genuinely, and think about any "tuning" to do with them later, so they don't even see the connection or feel contradicted.

We learn from each other here, so if you have successes or failures along these lines, let us know!

WW

[lostandconfused6]

You are so helpful and give the best advice! I appreciate it so much! Having a 2nd POV about how to handle things when it comes to dealing with my BPDbf is truly a life saver

He has the means to move out and i know this otherwise i wouldn't mention it even half as much as i do... .it won't be into a 8 bedroom mansion but if he chooses to live alone for now it could be in a nice 1-2 bedroom apartment or small house if he chooses to live with me we could very easily get a very nice 4 bedroom house and if we buy or build it would be something even better... .I'm not sure how to put it in words to him but i think he would feel more accomplished and better about himself if he got up and went out and made it on his own without just sitting around and waiting for things to happen... .1 of this big things is doing stuff on his own and "making it in life" but i feel it's contradictory to what he actually does... .i never make him feel bad for this or even mention it but i have to do a lot for him and idk if he doesn't realize it or what but he says "i never want help from anyone" but yet he is always asking me for help... .it's just frustrating sometimes

on a side note we just got off the phone and he said he came across an article that was about being in a relationship with someone with BPD and it actually said good things and gave tips on how a non can handle things and what to expect, he said everything else he has read in the past just said that if you find out your SO is BPD you need to give up and run. I sent him an article that was written from a NONs POV that was in a relationship with someone with BPD and it sheds a little light on how i see things day to day... .he is going to read it later... .not sure if it will help or hurt but he said he wants to know so i think if he reads and outsiders perspective that matches mine he might open his eyes a little more... .he tends to listen when he hears stuff from someone else

[Radcliff]

You are welcome!

I was just talking to a friend the other day about that balance between being independent and receiving support in a relationship.  It strikes me as very much shades of gray, which a pwBPD with black and white thinking might find especially challenging.  I think finding that balance can be a knotty problem even for us "nons."

What kinds of things do you do for him?

WW

[lostandconfused6]

Find tutors for him and set up everything, find doctors, find cheaper deals for him for every day things, find ways for him to get things done more efficiently and more quickly (but of course this is only ok when he is having a break down otherwise i'm the devil and a know it all) making sure he is awake for school (his mom is supposed to but she feels some days he just doesn't need to go to class or it isn't as important as her going to a thrift store) reminding him of his school schedule and when they have breaks and exams, it has even gone as far as me having to find a flower shop for him to send ME flowers... .i would say this is just laziness but he has tried to do some many of these things on his own and failed miserably at them its almost like he wayyyyy over complicates everything and misses the simple things in doing that,... .then of course depending on his mood if something goes wrong it's my fault and i get "i will never ask for your help again leave me alone i don't need you"

my favorite thing is when i tell him to leave early for something because i know how traffic is or i suggest for him to go another way and he doesn't listen then he ends up being 45 min late... .when i suggest something i have a "hidden agenda" or i'm a control freak... .until it pans out that what i was saying was 100% true and then it's to late... .

[Radcliff]

Find tutors for him and set up everything, find doctors, find cheaper deals for him for every day things, find ways for him to get things done more efficiently and more quickly (but of course this is only ok when he is having a break down otherwise i'm the devil and a know it all) making sure he is awake for school (his mom is supposed to but she feels some days he just doesn't need to go to class or it isn't as important as her going to a thrift store) reminding him of his school schedule and when they have breaks and exams, it has even gone as far as me having to find a flower shop for him to send ME flowers... .i would say this is just laziness but he has tried to do some many of these things on his own and failed miserably at them its almost like he wayyyyy over complicates everything and misses the simple things in doing that,... .then of course depending on his mood if something goes wrong it's my fault and i get "i will never ask for your help again leave me alone i don't need you"

Let me ask you this -- Read that paragraph above, and pretend that your best friend was explaining that to you, about her and her boyfriend.  What thoughts or advice would you share with her?

my favorite thing is when i tell him to leave early for something because i know how traffic is or i suggest for him to go another way and he doesn't listen then he ends up being 45 min late... .when i suggest something i have a "hidden agenda" or i'm a control freak... .until it pans out that what i was saying was 100% true and then it's to late... .

It sounds like he won't listen to you about routes, and it just creates friction.  Have you considered letting him "own" his navigation and on-time arrival, remaining silent and just letting natural consequences play out?

WW

[isilme]

Lost,

The paragraph WW copied and pasted - this is what I meant by he has to be able to "fail" at some things. And - I have done almost each and every single one of those things, thinking I was heling, but I was really enabling the very behavior I hated. 

We want to insulate our pwBPD from failure so much because they have shown they don't handle it well, but really, what we create (and what his mom has created) is a bubble-boy.  You know the story about the kid with no immune system who had to live in a plastic bubble?  BPD is a lack of an emotional immune system.  Things that we feel emotionally as a paper cut and can manage is like bleeding out to them.  They need time to "immunize" against the paper cuts of the world, which is not going to care about their sensitivities. 

He is in his mid-30s.  His mom supposed to make him get up for school?  I have had an alarm clock since I was 5 (kindergarten).  By 7 (second grade), my (admittedly abusive and crazy) parents expected me to get up, be dressed, and at the bus stop for school ON MY OWN.  I think by 35, any man who is to have a job and be a husband/father should have learned to get up on his own.

Yes, it's the fear of failure that makes him give up, not try, but also, the lack of the feeling HE HAS to do things - mom or you step in to be sure it's done, so why should he even try?  H used to blow off my birthday and valentines, and we had no real anniversary until he proposed, because he was just flakey about ever doing anything.  It was only when he finally "grew up" got a job, got back in school to finally finish, and bought a house that he started putting those as a priority.  I think friends gave him some crap about it, because I was not always able to hide my disappointment at being "forgotten". 

Your BF is in a virtual wheelchair needing physical therapy to get on his feet and walk, and you're (or his mom) pushing him wherever he needs to go so he doesn't have to work those muscles.  His emotional immune system has no antibodies because he's been so insulated.  His emotional muscles have atrophied because they get no HEALTHY exercise.

BPD is not part of just when they are shouting and trying to hurt us with their words, telling us we don't care.  It's also part of the passive times in the relationship - being "nice" to get us to do things and then yelling/lashing out when we fail to perfectly anticipate their feelings.  Neither part is healthy at this time.

This all ties into that balance I've mentioned about not trying to be a replacement-mom.  I have fallen into that hole myself at times, and so I pick and choose what I can help with, and what can "fail".  Paying bills - I don't let that fail.  Filing taxes, and yes, asking if he remembered his medication (mornings he's good, night time he tends to forget and his sugar spikes. He will even get up to do it and forget halfway to the bathroom).   I take care of things that will adversely affect ME if they are not done.  I know that sounds selfish, but really, I still do a disproportionate amount of things, but I do it with my eyes open, knowing my own quirks about housekeeping and yard work contribute to my needs to do things.  I know he is emotionally disabled (and now his physical health is a mess), and therefore, even at his best he will not be able to do as much as I want done.  I am usually pretty okay with this. 

H trying to organize a role-playing game for guys he knows, that's on him.  He gets it set up, I will gladly clean house for guests.  Him choosing freelance projects, I will help if it's something my skills can assist with (like painting), otherwise, it's all on him (leatherworking, not my thing), and if he leaves it till the last minute, that is also on him.  I'm his wife, not his secretary, not his mom. 

Letting him fail WILL result in accusations of "you don't care."  To which a reply of "of course I care but I can't go to class for you" would be my response, invalidating or not.  Then, I'd try to end the conversation until he'd "reset". 

Look at your list of things you do.  How many are "mom" type things, and how many can you not do and let him face any consequences (even if it's you ebing upset at him dropping the ball about getting you flowers)?  People need to face consquences to need to change.  Even pwBPD.  I am not saying be heartless, but it's all got to be mindful. 

[lostandconfused6]

WW... .i would tell them ummm he's in his 30s and he needs to get up on his own

He listens when it's convenient for him or if he didn't already have a "plan" in his head about it i guess when i make another suggestion that he didn't think of it makes him feel stupid which in his eyes is the worst thing that can possibly happen "Why wasn't i smart enough to think about this?"

isilme i know you are right... .and how you said you help with things that will adversely effect you, unfortunately that's how i feel if any of those things aren't done or go wrong it is all taken out on me in 1 way or another 75% of the time... .

i might be lying to myself about this or not looking at it correctly but i see the difference in his mom and myself being that i do things with the intent to help him and not hold it over his head or expect something in return... .she is the exact opposite she does things that benefit her or what she thinks is right and necessary she doesn't see him going to class has a necessity becasue the longer it takes him to finish the longer he will stick around her (so she thinks)

i am not making excuses for him but he does have a bad habit of waking up super early and passing back out... .his mom gets home from work at the time he needs to get up but she has admitted multiple times that she didn't think he needed to go,,,but all that aside he is 30 something and needs to do it himself... .it goes back to him saying he doesn't want help but still relies on people to do things for him

[Radcliff]

isilme i know you are right... .and how you said you help with things that will adversely effect you, unfortunately that's how i feel if any of those things aren't done or go wrong it is all taken out on me in 1 way or another 75% of the time... .

I'm glad you brought this up.  Notice that she's talking about direct adverse effects on her, like paying the bills.  And with that, it's best if we're owning a task like paying the bills if we can do it better, rather than parenting our pwBPD to do it.  :)oing something for them to avoid their resentment, tantrums, or abuse towards you is a huge trap.  I have got to be the king of falling into that trap.  That is exactly how the game is played, even if they are not doing it consciously.  They behave badly, and get rewarded for it because we do what they want us to.  The feel bad, act out, and we return them to equilibrium.  We get worn out and they fail to grow.  Year after year after year (and I've likely got many more than you  ) the effects accumulate.  OK, bottom line, you are going to need to set boundaries and put up with quite a bit of drama.  Have you heard of the term, "extinction burst" before?

Speaking of boundaries, you might want to pick up "Boundaries," by Cloud and Townsend.  It's got a lot of biblical references -- if that's not your thing you can filter it out.  I like it because part of the book's approach to boundaries includes each person carrying their own burden, and when it's OK to help and when it's not.  Basically, what they say is that everyone has to carry their own "reasonable burden."  It's only when they get an "unreasonable burden," a coworker who gets slammed at work, someone with a serious illness, a friend with a broken car, etc. that you step in to help.

i might be lying to myself about this or not looking at it correctly but i see the difference in his mom and myself being that i do things with the intent to help him and not hold it over his head or expect something in return... .she is the exact opposite she does things that benefit her or what she thinks is right and necessary she doesn't see him going to class has a necessity becasue the longer it takes him to finish the longer he will stick around her (so she thinks)

I think you're correctly pointing out a difference between you and his mom.  You seem to be less selfish and more thoughtful.  But while your motives may be more pure, I would argue that the effect is largely the same.

Change is tough.  This won't happen overnight.  There are probably things that you don't feel ready to let him be responsible for now, but may later.  What about now?  What thing would you pick as the "low lying fruit," the first success story in letting go of managing him that you might be able to see reasonably fast results on?

WW

[isilme]

I think you're correctly pointing out a difference between you and his mom.  You seem to be less selfish and more thoughtful.  But while your motives may be more pure, I would argue that the effect is largely the same.

I will toss in here that I am sure if you ask his mom, she thinks SHE'S being the least selfish and here you are, trying to take her son away when only SHE knows how to care for him best.  etc.

While the intentions might very well be based on different needs and desires, and hopeful outcomes - you want him to grow up and be the man you know he can be, she (seems to) wants to keep him her dependent child until she dies, the actions are not only similar, and the outcome is actually sadly similar.  AND, to him, they can easily look like echos of two women trying to control him. 

To grow up, to be a steady boyfriend, to be a steady man to become a husband, and yes a father, he needs to learn to do simple things, like get up, check the weather, apply for jobs, move out from his parents' house.  If he does not make it to class, that's on him, and you can set a boundary around not allowing him to dysregulate at you over it. 

You will both be going through some growing pains as you work to bring some healthier dynamics to the relationship, and as he finally starts to assert himself as an individual, not his parents' toy.

The good news is if you both manage to do this together, it can bring you closer, hopefully.