Struggling with boundaries after separation

[downheart]

My uBPDw and I separated almost two weeks ago. This is my first post.

I told her to leave. She was ripping into me, entirely out of control, because I hadn't invited her to join a bike ride that I had planned with my daughters. It was a trivial thing. At the time that I had scheduled the bike ride she was planning to be out of town. But now that her plans had changed she was furious that I had ignored her, that she was invisible, that I really didn't love her, that I was trying to distance the girls from her, and on and on. As usual, I tried remaining calm and tried to hear her, de-escalate, validate, hold her. But she punched me in the chest instead. It was a shock and it hurt a bit. She drew blood; I think her ring punctured my skin.

I immediately left the room, found the phone, returned with it and shouted that she should call a friend for help and that she should leave. Enough is enough. Ultimately, she did leave. Although as I remained silent she demanded that I apologize, tried to guilt trip me that she might crash because she had drugged herself because of what I said, insisted that I was making a power play, that I was sick and cruel, and so on.

I wasn't sure that this was really the last straw at the time, but I let her go — for the first time. The more hours passed the more I realized it was the right thing. I confided in a friend who clued me into BPD-like symptoms and a huge door opened into a world that was incredibly new yet so familiar. Among other things, I learned about codependency and BPD on this site, and while I don't think I'm truly codependent — my identity is not caught up in being my wife's caregiver — there's still a lot that resonates with me because I started to recognize how complicit I have been over our 8 years of marriage allowing her to cross all the normal boundaries of a healthy relationship.

I was the strong one, I wasn't depressed, I didn't have suicidal thoughts, I hadn't lost my job twice, I hadn't been through a painful divorce, my grandmother hadn't died... .so I could be the one to support her, to help her manage a world that seemed to hate her. I let myself be increasingly marginalized because she felt unloved if I spent time with friends or pursued personal interests that didn't involve her. My girls lost contact with their grandparents because my wife was sure that they hated her and so we agreed not to let them visit anymore. I became resentful. I listened to her berate me for being cruel when she said she was communicating her needs so clearly that even a retarded person would understand and I lacked any empathy to care about her. She said she would treat a stranger on the street better than I treated her. But I persevered because I felt like I had the strength to take on her pain. I loved her and I had hope that she would get better. How else could a loving husband respond?

She said I'd be happy if she shot herself. She said I made her want to kill herself. When I called her best friend to get her help for her suicidal thoughts she was furious that I had betrayed her.

Years ago when she first hit me, I let her pound and pound. I could take it and I knew she was in tremendous emotional pain, so I let her punch it out on me. I ended up blue, black and yellow over half my body. After that I did set one of the few boundaries: physical violence crosses a bright line. And honestly, it's only happened a few times since then. But when she punched me in the chest the other day, I said enough is enough.

It's not that I'm afraid of getting injured. It's more the feeling of deep despair that if she crossed the DV line without acknowledgement and remorse, then there's little hope that she'll ever come to terms with the verbal abuse and the low level of anxiety that I and my girls deal with on a daily basis.

So that's just the background! Here's the part where I need your all's help. Two days ago my wife and I met for the first time since our separation. We were with our couples therapist, who is now serving more as a mediator. My wife started out by saying, "I am sick. I am really REALLY sick. I need help. I'm working really hard to find help. I saw a psychiatrist yesterday. My friends agree that a separation is the right thing for us right now. I love you and I miss you." I was really surprised and impressed and hopeful. I still am! But I also stood my ground and said that I wanted minimal contact for the next few months and then was willing to re-evaluate. I said that I and the girls (they're my bio-kids, she's their step-mom, my daughters' bio-mom died 10 years ago) needed an emotional and physically safe environment, that my primary focus was to be nurturing for my teen girls and that I had robbed them of that attention because the majority of my energy had been focused on her, that I needed time to work on myself without the crisis of our relationship, that if we were to ever reconcile that I needed to understand myself better to be sure I wouldn't participate again in the same dysfunction, that I was fatigued and burned and I needed time to recover.

My wife was unhappy with this. She argued that I was in avoidance, which was unhealthy; that we should be working together to solve our problems. She was unhappy with the minimal contact because she wanted to be able to send love and spend time together as a family (she also has two bio-sons that spend 1/2 time with us). She said that she was sad that I was throwing her out on the street during her deepest personal crisis when she needed support the most. She felt I was being unfair because she was couch surfing while I wasn't experiencing any inconvenience.

I responded that nothing was set in stone, that I was willing to consider and discuss everything as time went on, but that I was setting what I believed now to be necessary boundaries for safety and recovery. I said that I wanted to help her, but knew that I was a trigger and that I could not. I said that I loved her very much (I do!) and part of me yearned to reconnect, but I was confident that even the best intentioned communications were a slippery slope that were likely to devolve into feelings of abandonment on her part and anxiety on mine. (A typical pattern has been that my wife may send me a seemingly innocuous text, for example, and I fail to respond, or am too slow to respond, or too curt, or my response is thoughtless or hurtful, etc. You probably are familiar! I spend a lot of time on eggshells worrying about my wife's state of mind. Something trivial becomes a major emotional injury and I'm always on the lookout for the next unexpected.)

Then today she writes me an email basically reiterating all the issues she expressed in therapy. "I've been banished at a time of my greatest need". She's "untethered" with no home, no kids or animals to care for, and contact is cut off.

The kid issue is very complicated. In addition to my bio-kids, she has two sons from her first marriage that she has 50% time. They are awesome boys and I love having them around. My girls are with me 100% time, but my wife's relationship with them is fraught, especially with my youngest, a 13-year-old. If I'm out at night and leave my girls with my wife, it's common to return and find my youngest daughter and my wife both sulking and I get an earful about the inevitable blow ups between them. Yet she is a legal guardian. When I remarried, it seemed like the loving thing to do for the girls.
 
So I'm struggling to figure out what to do? What to propose? What to accept? Am I being too harsh by wanting minimal contact? Is it a bad idea to put a time window on it? Should I agree to swap weeks with the house and let her use the house when her boys are with her? That sounds reasonable, except the parenting. Do I leave without the girls or take them with me? Do I give them a choice? What am I really hoping for in all this? Is it rational to imagine that my wife can really change enough over a few months so that we could live together again? How long should I or can I wait? Am I really willing to continue to be the perpetual caretaker if I remain married to a pwBPD?

It would be helpful to hear how others have dealt with similar stages in their relationship. Despite my action to finally separate, I'm still feeling on the fence about how to make that separation work because I'm not sure what I really want. I love my wife very much, I don't want to hurt her, I want to do what I can to help her recovery, but being together is  hugely dysfunctional. I'm struggling to figure out what I really want and what that rationally means in terms of actions and setting boundaries.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[juju2]

Wow, you have a lot on your plate. You are in the right place.

My experience when step kids enter the picture, it's another layer, and the parents, mom /dad (step mom, step dad) they have to put their relationship first.  The bio kids always want their family, bio dad, all to themselves, they don't tend to want much to do w the step parents. Someone who was on her 2nd marriage, they both had kids, so blended family, she said you have to put your marriage first.  Its very difficult.

My separated s.o., BPD, he had two grown adult children living w us off and on, and one of my dtrs lived w us for the first five years.  It was very difficult to say the least.

I agree w my friend who said i had to put my relationship first.  I was constantly being put into situations because the kids are smart, it was an extra layer of drama that didn't need to be there.

This is my experience.  I (we) didn't do it right, we didn't make it clear that we are a family.  I wasn't his kids mother, but I was the mom of this house.  He was the dad of this house, the mom and dad relationship of our home wasn't up for discussion.

I know you are in a tough situation and with help of your therapist, you can make it through the rough waters.  You can do this.

Keep posting here.  There is a lot of experience, strength, and hope here.

Sincerely,
j

[Mutt]

Hi downheart,



Id like to join juju2 and welcome you to bpdfamily. I’m sorry that you’re going through a separation it’s difficult stuff, if you mention divorce / separation to people in real life often you see them flinch probabmy because it triggers painful memories from a painful life experience.

From what you shared here and what I gather you’re like a lot of us here we had no boundaries or if we had boundaries they were floating ones. A lot of struggled when we set our foot down with our first boundary you’re in the right place. It’s going to help you participate here because when you get second doubts or moments where you feel weak we can help you get through it because we’ve walked a mile in your shoes.

You’re doing the right things because it sounds she’s close to an extinctions’ burst. I’d suggest to continue on this path, I’d be cautiously optimistic with her, if she’s going to change she’ll seek out the proper resources, get help and do her homework if she’s sincere. From her for now treat it like they’re just words she needs to back it up with motivation, self reliance and folllow through.

Im glad to hear that your friend tipped you off because you know what your dealing with you’re not floundering or alone anymore. We can’t diagn her only a professional can do that! What we can look at are BPD traits. Something that I would like to add us that it sounds she’s the waif / witch type. They’re sub personalities within BPD. I can see how she would trigger guilty feelings in you, ignore it.

You’re not responsible for other people’s feelings, she needs to manage her feelings on her own. You want a separation for a few months and minimal contact kudos for you. It will be give you the space and time that you need to sort out your feelings and make a decision if you want to reconcile, you have a right to ask for this if you rescue her from her feelings you’re going to be right back to square one.

Thoughts?

[Radcliff]

That must have been terribly difficult to let your wife go for the first time.  Six months ago, I served my wife with a domestic violence restraining order requiring her to move out, and it was excruciatingly difficult.  I agree with your instinct that time with minimal contact is important.  For me, the first two months were about decompressing and experiencing the freedom of thought and ability to start understanding what happened, free of the constant burden of trying to avoid blowups and bad behavior.  That time was super important.  You need that.  After that, you need to let her do her work and evaluate when/if more contact can be successful.  My wife and I were not at a point where we could do couples therapy.  If you can continue that, and it is productive, it could be a good idea.  A lot depends on your therapist.  Is he or she familiar with personality disorders?

Are you seeing a therapist?

WW

[downheart]

What we can look at are BPD traits. Something that I would like to add us that it sounds she’s the waif / witch type. They’re sub personalities within BPD. I can see how she would trigger guilty feelings in you, ignore it.

Thanks Mutt. I hadn't heard of the witch/waif thing. I looked it up here and learned about the queen, witch, waif, hermit archetypes. I'm not sure how it applies, because I see all of these characters in different ways in my wife.

The hermit is constantly worrying about worst case scenarios and is hyper-anxious. She has distanced herself from all her extended family (parents, sibs, in-laws) because of how they have supposedly wronged her, hate her, etc. The queen demands all of my emotional and physical energy, guilts me into only focusing on her, and controls my communication with extended family and her friends else I'm betraying her. The waif bears her soul to me telling me her darkest feelings of suicide and worthlessness so I can rescue her from the chasm. The witch projects on me all her negative self-image and then literally beats me up and verbally abuses me for having the evil feelings she has assigned to me. It's like fighting with a shadow puppet.

When I write all this out, I think what am doing sticking around? And yet I am so emotionally enmeshed. I love her. Worry about her. I want her to be happy, to recover. I don't want to hurt our family through divorce when my kids have already been through so much (daughters losing their mother at an early age to cancer and step-sons going through a difficult divorce).

Ugh. So conflicted.

[downheart]

That must have been terribly difficult to let your wife go for the first time.  Six months ago, I served my wife with a domestic violence restraining order requiring her to move out, and it was excruciatingly difficult.  I agree with your instinct that time with minimal contact is important.  For me, the first two months were about decompressing and experiencing the freedom of thought and ability to start understanding what happened, free of the constant burden of trying to avoid blowups and bad behavior.  That time was super important.  You need that.  After that, you need to let her do her work and evaluate when/if more contact can be successful.  My wife and I were not at a point where we could do couples therapy.  If you can continue that, and it is productive, it could be a good idea.  A lot depends on your therapist.  Is he or she familiar with personality disorders?

Are you seeing a therapist?

Thanks WW. Days ago it seemed like this extended time out would be good for me for the reasons you said: give me time, space, freedom to reflect and change myself and give her the time to get the therapy that she needs and discover herself. But now I'm having second thoughts. My wife sees this time as a punishment and the possibility that we will reunite seems to give her hope that keeps her from recognizing really what's going on and she continues to project her pain on me (it's my fault that she's in such a pit because I've abandoned her when she needs me in her darkest hour).

We have therapists on top of therapists. She has a personal therapist. I don't know if her T really gets it or not. My wife was professionally a social worker, so she presents as highly competent and self-aware. It's my impression that she has spent most of her time with this current therapist trying to strategize how to fix me although on the positive side she is working hard through her therapist to lower her expectations of me and try not to feel so unloved. My wife has been in therapy almost her entire adult life. She has a new psychiatrist who apparently thinks she's dealing with PTSD from a series of crises and traumas and is treating her for depression. That may indeed be part of it, but I think there's much deeper personality disorder-type stuff going on. Our CT has been good off and on regarding typical strategies to mitigate problems that arise in partnerships, but it's not the place for her to diagnose us individually. I've been seeing a therapist. It's mostly a cathartic talk-it-out experience. We just started talking about BPD last week, but basically the upshot from my T is, yeah your wife might be BPD, but the important thing is you need to take care of yourself and your daughters and get the f* out of there. That's what my sister and my friend say, too.

Ugh.

[Radcliff]

If you agree to her coming back to the home, you will not easily get her to leave again.  You and your daughters are safe from her behaviors, and she will never be more motivated than she is now.  The notion that you are beating her down too much for her to recover is a familiar one to me -- I felt that guilt as well.  Treating our wives as fragile people who could not fend for themselves is one of the things that got us into these situations in the first place.  They are stronger than we think.  Her ability to pick herself up from this and recover could be seen as a measure of her ability to be a safe and equal partner for you.  It sounds like you have the resources to afford multiple therapists, so she is not bereft of support.  The point you make about wondering if the therapists are steering in the right direction is actually one I'm facing as well -- we have to come to terms with the fact that we cannot engineer the outcome of our situations.  I find this letting go to be difficult.

Are you familiar with dialectical behavioral therapy (DBT)?

WW

[Harri]

Hi downheart and welcome to the boards. 

I just wanted to address this part of your last post:

Thanks Mutt. I hadn't heard of the witch/waif thing. I looked it up here and learned about the queen, witch, waif, hermit archetypes. I'm not sure how it applies, because I see all of these characters in different ways in my wife.

The sub categories can be fluid.  My mother who had BPD traits at least went between queen, witch and waif.  Since you have kids, I do want to mention that you may at some point want to read Understanding the Borderline Mother by Christine Ann Lawson.  She is the one who talks about the sub-categories.  The book can be a tough read but will give you an insight not just into your wife but also what the kids are experiencing having a step mom with BPD. 

I do not think leaving your daughters with her when/if you leave would be good for them.

Wishing you and yours peace and healing

[Radcliff]

I do not think leaving your daughters with her when/if you leave would be good for them.

And the other side of this coin is that displacing teenage daughters to accommodate a BPD step mom does not sound good.  They will be very sensitive to how well you are looking out for their interests.  You need to protect them, yet also treat your wife with respect.  Even if they sometimes don't get along with her, they may feel a sense of loss, and even experience a strange mix of gratitude and resentment towards you.  I'm not saying I know; just be ready for anything.  Teenage girls are complex.  I have three!

Is renting a two-bedroom apartment for your wife on a six-month lease something that is financially possible?  That has the advantage that it communicates that this has gone beyond couch-surfing, without saying that things are over.

WW

[downheart]

Are you familiar with dialectical behavioral therapy (DBT)?

Not really. I only heard about it after reading about BPD in the last two weeks. I just watched a good video describing it and I looked at a website used for locating therapists in my state. The nearest is more than an hour away.

But probably more importantly, it's pretty close to impossible for me to make psychological recommendations to my wife. She becomes angry and defensive very quickly, says I don't know what I'm talking about and should deal with myself, not pathologize her. Has anyone been successful pointing their SO to get specific kinds of help?

I think I've only been successful once in this area. I'm not sure how it came about many months back, but we decided to try doing 10-minute daily meditations together. That clued me in to some interesting mindfulness work and I bought my wife Tara Brach's Radical Acceptance book, which she accepted without getting angry with me. I don't know if she read the book or what she thought of it because she never spoke about it, but I know she's still doing meditation. So that makes me hopeful!

[downheart]

And the other side of this coin is that displacing teenage daughters to accommodate a BPD step mom does not sound good.  They will be very sensitive to how well you are looking out for their interests.  You need to protect them, yet also treat your wife with respect.  Even if they sometimes don't get along with her, they may feel a sense of loss, and even experience a strange mix of gratitude and resentment towards you.  I'm not saying I know; just be ready for anything.  Teenage girls are complex.  I have three!

WW, you're right. It's complicated. The girls understandably have a connection to our house and an attachment to my wife, even if a weak and volatile one. But then my wife's bio-kids also have connection to the house and to their step-sibs, so it's also unfair to keep them out of the house for months.
I think I just need to talk frankly with my daughters and get a better read on them.

Is renting a two-bedroom apartment for your wife on a six-month lease something that is financially possible?  That has the advantage that it communicates that this has gone beyond couch-surfing, without saying that things are over.

It's not out of the question. In fact, I've imagined doing this myself with my kids. Harder to imagine convincing wife to do so. And it's of course complicated. My wife travels out of town regularly for work, usually timed for when she doesn't have custody of her bio-kids. I mostly manage our home and so it would make a lot more sense for her to move into an apartment. Hmmm... .

[Radcliff]

Getting your daughters' input seems like a very good idea.

Going back and filling in the story, before she hit you in the chest with her ring, how long ago was the previous incident?  How long ago was the time when you drew the boundary on DV and incidents dropped substantially?

WW

[spero]

Hello there downheart,

I'd like to welcome to you the forums and join, Mutt, Wentworth and Harri in responding to your post.

Noting that this only happened about 2 weeks ago, i do believe things are rather raw for you at the moment.
How are you feeling right now, downheart? Please let me respond in two parts, i'll respond to your background first and i'll respond to the second half in a few hours.

I told her to leave. She was ripping into me, entirely out of control, because I hadn't invited her to join a bike ride that I had planned with my daughters. It was a trivial thing. At the time that I had scheduled the bike ride she was planning to be out of town. But now that her plans had changed she was furious that I had ignored her, that she was invisible, that I really didn't love her, that I was trying to distance the girls from her, and on and on. As usual, I tried remaining calm and tried to hear her, de-escalate, validate, hold her. But she punched me in the chest instead. It was a shock and it hurt a bit. She drew blood; I think her ring punctured my skin.

From what you've mentioned, this feels like it isn't the first time there was a "out of control" reaction? What does seem trivial for you and I might infact be "triggering" for your partner. Which in her own interpretation, she saw your action of "not being invited and involved" perhaps as an act of rejection even abandonment. You've probably tried your best to convince her otherwise, but from the above, it seems that her emotions has escalated to the point hurting you. I'm sorry you were physically hurt, downheart. Its terrible to be on the receiving end especially if it's coming from your partner.

Although as I remained silent she demanded that I apologize, tried to guilt trip me that she might crash because she had drugged herself because of what I said, insisted that I was making a power play, that I was sick and cruel, and so on.

Hmm, i am sorry that you're being to be accused of being "sick and cruel", and that as a result of what you've done, that has caused her to intentionally drugged herself. That, from a very logical POV, is well, a form of "her projecting her own negativity" and a shift of what is one's own personal responsibility. But while I may say that, your partner may well believe that others are controlling her, and others are influencing her or have power over her. But simply, downheart. She might be saying all these "accusations" just to make you feel the same way she's feeling.

I wasn't sure that this was really the last straw at the time, but I let her go — for the first time. The more hours passed the more I realized it was the right thing. I confided in a friend who clued me into BPD-like symptoms and a huge door opened into a world that was incredibly new yet so familiar. Among other things, I learned about codependency and BPD on this site, and while I don't think I'm truly codependent — my identity is not caught up in being my wife's caregiver — there's still a lot that resonates with me because I started to recognize how complicit I have been over our 8 years of marriage allowing her to cross all the normal boundaries of a healthy relationship.

My girls lost contact with their grandparents because my wife was sure that they hated her and so we agreed not to let them visit anymore. I became resentful. I listened to her berate me for being cruel when she said she was communicating her needs so clearly that even a retarded person would understand and I lacked any empathy to care about her. She said she would treat a stranger on the street better than I treated her. But I persevered because I felt like I had the strength to take on her pain. I loved her and I had hope that she would get better. How else could a loving husband respond?

I'm sorry for that your kids had to lose contact with their granny. Well, downheart. The problem with individuals with BPD, is that sometimes, they'd think on our behalf. My uBPDexGF was so convinced i was thinking in a certain way, she was responding to how "she thought" i was thinking and not what i was actually thinking. Like wise, her interpretation or she has convinced herself that your kids hate their granny.

Again downheart, i'm really sorry to have your partner berate you, from a very clinical pov it seems this is "emotional abuse" and there seems to be "devaluation" of what you are to her and unfortunately, whether intentional or unintentionally, she has tried to make you feel bad and guilty by comparing you a stranger. Downheart, i'm sure you're a person of strength or you're someone who is resolute. I tried too, i tried to love my uBPDexGF, i wanted to take on her pain, i too hoped she'd get better. But she heaped abuse after abuse on me, to the point i was just an "object" to her. I was just meant to be used at her convenience. It does seem obvious enough that there is devaluation going on, and breakdown in even trying to talk things out decently.

She said I'd be happy if she shot herself. She said I made her want to kill herself. When I called her best friend to get her help for her suicidal thoughts she was furious that I had betrayed her.

I've been in a somewhat similar situation, when i told my uBPDexGF i called her out on some common friends, she went ballistic on me, i had committed some kind of cardinal sin.

So, here is where i'll pause at the moment. Hope it's been helpful so far.

Takeheart,
Spero.

[downheart]

Thanks, spero. I appreciate your understanding. Yes, you've got it right. Hardly the first time that she's lost control. A pattern for almost 10 years is extreme reactions - not always anger, sometimes intense despair - over issues that seem relatively minor but are always interpreted as someone (almost always me) slighting her. E.g. Just like I do every Friday, I go to pick up my daughter at work (a ten minute round trip) after she phoned, but I didn't tell my wife that I had left. My daughter and I return and my daughter says hello, but my wife didn't hear her. My wife later becomes intensely emotional: "you're ignoring me, I'm invisible, you must wish I were gone or dead, you raise your daughters to be so rude that they don't even talk to me, etc." and it goes on for an hour or more. This sort of thing was my daily life and anxiety. And it wasn't enough to apologize and validate her feelings, it felt like I had to validate her reality. If we argued about "the facts" then she would quickly go to the position that everyone experiences the world differently, through their own lens.  If I were to defend myself or my kids she would say, "you're not understanding my feelings, you're just being defensive. You're so caught up in being right that you don't care about me."

Over time and particularly in the last six months I mostly just gave up. I was the strong one who wasn't depressed, so I just listen to her character assassination and repeated back to her and said I understood. Sometimes I'd say, "I have a different perspective on this and I hope you are in a better place sometime soon and you can ask me about that." But she never did.

I read this website about what it takes to live with a pwBPD and the main themes that come out is that I must accept and commit to being the caregiver and to de-escalate conflict through validation. I don't think I have it in me to be that person forever. And I even question whether that strategy is the right one for anyone. The less I reacted and the more I only repeated back her feelings, projections and false claims about me the more extreme her words were and often the more volatile she became. Yes, she punched me recently. But even more frequently she would swing her arms and punch herself and she'd scream at me for being so cruel.

That's part of what I'm struggling with now. If we reunite then how do I validate and de-escalate but maintain boundaries? What are examples of those boundaries? I imagine (1) no violence, (2) no telling me what I feel or think, and (3) physically leaving a conflict is always OK - it doesn't mean I don't care, am trying to hurt her, that I'm passive aggressive, or that I'm avoiding issues. What else?

[downheart]

Getting your daughters' input seems like a very good idea.

So today I spoke with my daughters and it was horribly heartwrenching. They felt an awful sense of sadness that was hard for them to put to words, but it was related to the conflicting feelings that they love my wife and stepsons, they don't want to lose them, they treasure the good times that we have together, but there was also the recognition that life is better without my wife. It was a sort of grief. They talked about how conflict, particularly between my youngest daughter and my wife, was almost inevitable anytime that I wasn't around and that my wife set standards that they felt like they could never meet. They didn't want to leave the house, but acknowledged that it would probably be trouble if they stayed without me. What was particularly sad and beautiful was that they both, independently, said first that they would never leave each other. What all this meant is that if I left, then my younger one would come with me and if my younger one came with me then my older daughter would definitely be with us, too.
So if we end up spending some time away from the house, then that means that my girls and I will not be living again with my wife and her sons (maybe ever). That felt so sad. But we agreed that we would still make joint plans to meet up together for activities - all 6 of us. Meet for a dinner or a hike or at a kid's game. I'm sure that my wife will be willing.

So that's the big clarification / news for the day. Tomorrow I meet with my wife with a mediator. Wish me luck.

Going back and filling in the story, before she hit you in the chest with her ring, how long ago was the previous incident?  How long ago was the time when you drew the boundary on DV and incidents dropped substantially?

Probably the last DV was a year ago.

When she first really beat me it was probably 5 or more years ago. It was the first time that I said "maybe we should think about separating". I had been meeting with a therapist at the time and he said, "have you ever talked about splitting up?" As though it was the sort of thing that two emotionally mature people could ponder and evaluate. So I did! Now I better understand that mentioning this was like a mortal blow to someone who is terrified of being abandoned. When I tried to raise the topic she beat me and was in absolute rage. She told me to get out. So the next day I thought it was over, I pulled together some things for me and the girls and booked a motel room. I searched for consolation from friends and admitted for the first time that I felt like a battered, abused spouse. I was devastated. And then my wife calls me and says why am I being so stupid? Come home, she's made dinner, what was I thinking? And I thought, she's right, this all just got blown out of proportion... .and I went back... .

It was only later incidences when she would grab me and hit me that I became clear to her that DV was not OK. Even still, it continued infrequently. A few years ago when we were seeing a couples therapist it came up in a session and the therapist said firmly, no violence ever. Since then, there's been only relatively minor incidence until this last one. (Mostly my wife hurts herself instead.)

And again, it's not that I'm afraid for my physical safety, but it's more that such a bright, obvious line is crossed. I'm left feeling incredible despair.

[spero]

Hi downheart,

So, as i've mentioned earlier, here is the second part of my response

I said that I and the girls (they're my bio-kids, she's their step-mom, my daughters' bio-mom died 10 years ago) needed an emotional and physically safe environment, that my primary focus was to be nurturing for my teen girls and that I had robbed them of that attention because the majority of my energy had been focused on her, that I needed time to work on myself without the crisis of our relationship, that if we were to ever reconcile that I needed to understand myself better to be sure I wouldn't participate again in the same dysfunction, that I was fatigued and burned and I needed time to recover.

I suppose downheart, this would be very much an uphill climb, especially when what feels "right" for you may not feel right for your "partner". It is difficult to be a "responsible" father, when responsibility in your perspective toward nurturing your daughters becomes for her, a tug-of-war - Time either spend with your children, or time spent with her. You have this to deal with while, having to deal with how you personally feel about having "denied" your girls the attention they so rightfully need from a father figure. Understandably so, downheart, this would be one area which would drain your mental and emotional capacity. Which you've pointed out that you're "tired" from giving.

My wife was unhappy with this. She argued that I was in avoidance, which was unhealthy; that we should be working together to solve our problems. She was unhappy with the minimal contact because she wanted to be able to send love and spend time together as a family (she also has two bio-sons that spend 1/2 time with us). She said that she was sad that I was throwing her out on the street during her deepest personal crisis when she needed support the most. She felt I was being unfair because she was couch surfing while I wasn't experiencing any inconvenience.

I suppose while your wife's reaction is very much "predictable" and while i may comprehend her "psyche". It is also most unfortunate. She is unhappy, probably because you're not giving her the attention she thinks she deserves. By simply "giving" lesser supply, or attention, or time would trigger that "abandonment" sensitivity. Perhaps downheart, you've gone in circles about this question as well, "Why can't my wife be reasonable at this point in time?", and rightfully so, downheart. You've got alot on your plate to deal with. And unfortunately, when she is unable to get the response she wants from you, she then turns the table and becomes the "victim". I say this very gently, that this amounts to covert "emotional blackmailing" using fear, guilt and obligation to illicit the response she wants from you.

If you'd like to read more about, "emotional blackmailing" you may find this article helpful in providing you more insight.

I responded that nothing was set in stone, that I was willing to consider and discuss everything as time went on, but that I was setting what I believed now to be necessary boundaries for safety and recovery. I said that I wanted to help her, but knew that I was a trigger and that I could not. I said that I loved her very much (I do!) and part of me yearned to reconnect, but I was confident that even the best intentioned communications were a slippery slope that were likely to devolve into feelings of abandonment on her part and anxiety on mine.

(A typical pattern has been that my wife may send me a seemingly innocuous text, for example, and I fail to respond, or am too slow to respond, or too curt, or my response is thoughtless or hurtful, etc. You probably are familiar! I spend a lot of time on eggshells worrying about my wife's state of mind. Something trivial becomes a major emotional injury and I'm always on the lookout for the next unexpected.)

Then today she writes me an email basically reiterating all the issues she expressed in therapy. "I've been banished at a time of my greatest need". She's "untethered" with no home, no kids or animals to care for, and contact is cut off.

Downheart, how is your heartright now? It does seem that you need your boundaries, so that you could have a chance to recover. Unfortunately, your explanations of wanting boundaries will probably not be heeded. While in the bigger context of actually benefiting your wife, she is unable to see your perspective of the situation, to know that you have your "needs" to attend to. This must be so difficult for you, you desire to help your wife, but yet at the same time you're a "trigger" for her abandonment issues. Downheart, i want you to know that it might not be in anyway a fault on your part in having "become" a trigger.

It is just the way things pan out, your wife's inability to deal with separation and her "own interpretation" of you being unable to meet her almost "impossible" and perhaps even unreasonable demands becomes for her, you're not "up to her standard", and has therefore disappointed her. And perhaps even in her own distorted way of thinking, "If my husband truly loves me, then he will love me, attend to my needs, the way i want it, and when i want it." Anything lesser would trigger her sensitivity toward being unloved, and even becoming the "victim".

Downheart, the thing is, if you continue to "give in" i fear that it would put an even greater mental and emotional strain on your already taxed mental well being. If you are attempting something different, you would definitely need the resolve and iron-willed resolution to follow through, anything less and failing to do so, will send a message to your wife and give her further means to push your "boundaries". You'd just need to keep playing the message of what your boundaries are very much like an old broken record. In that sense, consistency is key. The best illustration and unfortunately perhaps even impolite perspective would be, effectively, downheart, you are dealing with a three year old stuck in an adult body, or someone along the lines of an angry teenage kid throwing a tantrum. The best way such a person would learn, is probably through "consequences".

The kid issue is very complicated. In addition to my bio-kids, she has two sons from her first marriage that she has 50% time. They are awesome boys and I love having them around. My girls are with me 100% time, but my wife's relationship with them is fraught, especially with my youngest, a 13-year-old. If I'm out at night and leave my girls with my wife, it's common to return and find my youngest daughter and my wife both sulking and I get an earful about the inevitable blow ups between them. Yet she is a legal guardian. When I remarried, it seemed like the loving thing to do for the girls.

Eventually, you may, and hopefully not, find yourself in a situation having to choose between your daughters and your wife. You would probably have to weigh your options especially when your daughters reach the age where they able to get themselves out of a "potentially toxic" or even perhaps "toxic" environment. As you would probably know downheart, this issue would eventually affect and shape your daughters too. And when that difficult moment comes, i hope you would have the strength and courage to choose what is "best". What i fear for your daughters is potentially the risk to suffer trauma from this cascading emotional tension and i'd say "god-forbid" that they would develop mental issues.

So I'm struggling to figure out what to do? What to propose? What to accept? Am I being too harsh by wanting minimal contact? Is it a bad idea to put a time window on it? Should I agree to swap weeks with the house and let her use the house when her boys are with her? That sounds reasonable, except the parenting. Do I leave without the girls or take them with me? Do I give them a choice? What am I really hoping for in all this? Is it rational to imagine that my wife can really change enough over a few months so that we could live together again? How long should I or can I wait? Am I really willing to continue to be the perpetual caretaker if I remain married to a pwBPD?

I suppose to list down what you need to think about in a short summary.

• What are your non-negotiables?, things which you cannot compromise on?
• I am not a parent, downheart, but i would consider the safety and well being of my children as one of my top priorities, and perhaps they are not at the age to make a sound-decision by themselves. This is where you'll need to step in on their behalf, to protect them. My suggestion would be to minimise contact with your wife, at least for now, when your wife seems to be in a state of emotional flux.
• A question you would need to ask and ponder is, what do you hope for your children? Especially you biological daughters?
• you've identifed yourself as a "caretaker" and so the hard question i have to ask you, downheart, would you be willing to do this at the expense of a uphill climb while potentially eroding your "mental" well being? Is that sustainable in a long run? This has further implications on your ability to provide and care for your daughters as well.
  
• What do you think are values which promote a healthy family relationships and longevity in a marriage? Would those be values be attainable with your wife in the future?

Lastly, downheart, if you're able to chat with a therapist, that would be good. I do believe you'll benefit deeply from personal sessions. These are my thoughts to your situation so far. Takecare, downheart. We're here to bounce off ideas, so do keep us update on what happens next.

I hope this helps,
Spero

[downheart]

Thanks spero for your very thoughtful response. I'm grateful. But I'm feeling too low to follow up. I'm feeling so guilty and ambivalent. I'm feeling like my wife is right: I'm the bad one for saying enough, telling her to leave and refusing to get together again is just going to lead to ruin. I wish she agreed with me that we need time apart to work on ourselves and then establish reasonable boundaries and expectations for a reconciliation, but she doesn't want to do any of that, which makes me the bad guy. Just depressed... .

[downheart]

I am feeling so incredibly down. My gut has been in knots, I'm unable to work and all I want to do is crash, but lying down just leaves me with my churning thoughts of despair. Ugh.

For those of you following my saga, I met with my wife for coffee today. I was feeling guilty and conflicted. I had said that I need space for several different reasons (safety, reflection, recovery) and didn't want contact. But at our last CT meeting my wife argued that I was being punitive. Also at our last meeting it ended abruptly soon after I came out point blank and said, "you punched me. you crossed a bright line that is not OK. And you've never acknowledged that or apologized."

Well, she looked at me in the eye and seemed to give a heartfelt apology, but she was shaken and immediately left. Being so f*-ing enmeshed in this relationship, having lived on eggshells for so many years, I can't help but obsess about what she is doing or thinking, what she's saying to our friends and so on.

So I thought, stupidly, let's get some coffee in a public space, talk about the kids and other stuff, show some interest in each other, demonstrate that I'm not trying to screw her over - which has been a constant abandonment fear since the beginning. And maybe I could get a read on her and stop worrying so much.

All went well for about 30 minutes. And then she starts getting despondent and says, "it's hard for me to be kicked out of my house". And I said, I get it, I'm sorry, but if we're going to be separated for now then someone needs to be away from the house, and that I've said many times that I was willing to discuss an arrangement to share the house. And she said again, "you kicked me out of the house". And I replied, "you beat me!" And she said, "you beat me, too!"

And I was just shocked and totally dismayed and angry and sad that she would ever accuse me of physically hurting her. When she punched me before our separation I was trying to calm her down over a minor issue. I was trying to offer soothing words, trying to give her a hug. So after she punched me, I left the room immediately, came back with a phone and said that enough was enough. She should call a friend and get out. She was rocking on the bed with her hands over her ears mumbling repeatedly to herself. So I grabbed her wrist to pull her hand from her ears so she could hear me. I shouldn't have done that and I've admitted that ever since. But she says that I hurt her wrist when I was trying to give her the phone.

And so now, she is painting this situation as though we both are violent. It just makes my gut feel so awful. She knows that I have never threatened to hurt her and I have never ever tried to hurt her. She knows that instead I have received her physical abuse many times and even let her pound on me.

There are demons in her head. And to hear her try to contort reality in this way is so so so despairing.

I had hoped that she could recognize for starters her responsibility for physically abusing me. And then maybe we could gradually discuss and recognize that in every argument that we have that does not include physical violence that she is of the same mindset and using words to hurt me (you'd be happy if I blew my brains out, I'm going to kill myself to get away from you). But there's no chance we'll ever get there if she's trying to manipulate reality even about hitting me.

Ugh. I'm so so sad.

[Radcliff]

That's part of what I'm struggling with now. If we reunite then how do I validate and de-escalate but maintain boundaries? What are examples of those boundaries? I imagine (1) no violence, (2) no telling me what I feel or think, and (3) physically leaving a conflict is always OK - it doesn't mean I don't care, am trying to hurt her, that I'm passive aggressive, or that I'm avoiding issues. What else?

downheart, I want to highlight this.  You've got a good start here.  No violence is #1.  #2 may need some retooling.  Boundaries control what you do, not what she does.  Take a look at this page on setting boundaries.  Can you rephrase this boundary to be about what you do?  One possibility is to realize that she may be projecting.  If she tells you you are angry, you can't say "no I'm not angry."  But you can speak softly and act not angry.  Imagine that she might be having the emotion she is accusing you of, then go from there.

#3, being able to safely leave a conflict, is a big one.  Yes, this needs to be on your boundary list.  You need to be able to take a short break, for example, saying "I need to take a break so I can clear my head and come back to be a better listener, I'm going to take a walk and be back in 20 minutes."  Has your wife ever physically prevented you from leaving a room, from leaving the house, or from using your car?

You talked about not being sure you can sign up for being an emotional caretaker forever.  Our pwBPD are all individuals.  And so are we.  BPD symptoms are not uniform across pwBPD, and vary in severity.  The tools taught here can help some couples do well.  For other couples, they don't improve things enough to sustain the relationship.  Regardless, remember this very important point -- when we all first arrived here, we were all doing many things to make the situation worse.  Regardless of the ultimate future of your relationship, you will benefit from learning and applying the tools.  You will get yourself to a less anguished place, you will be certain you gave it your all, and if you are to separate, you will have learned skills to make coparenting more effective.  You don't have to sign up for a lifetime membership here   Just get started and see where it takes you.

WW

[Radcliff]

I had hoped that she could recognize for starters her responsibility for physically abusing me. And then maybe we could gradually discuss and recognize that in every argument that we have that does not include physical violence that she is of the same mindset and using words to hurt me (you'd be happy if I blew my brains out, I'm going to kill myself to get away from you). But there's no chance we'll ever get there if she's trying to manipulate reality even about hitting me.

Ugh. I'm so so sad.

Yes, I have these same thoughts in a similar situation.  We are six months post separation, with a lot of resources being brought to bear, and it's possible that we will never have this rational conversation.  I know she is not ready for it.  I know I'm not ready for it -- anytime she denies responsibility for the violence or accuses me of being violent, I'm no longer able to continue a conversation.  I was warned to be prepared to never get the closure I was looking for.  Our story has not yet been fully told.  Neither has yours.

WW

[downheart]

downheart, I want to highlight this.  You've got a good start here.  No violence is #1.  #2 may need some retooling.  Boundaries control what you do, not what she does.  Take a look at this page on setting boundaries.  Can you rephrase this boundary to be about what you do?  One possibility is to realize that she may be projecting.  If she tells you you are angry, you can't say "no I'm not angry."  But you can speak softly and act not angry.  Imagine that she might be having the emotion she is accusing you of, then go from there.

Hmm. I read the page and much of the related discussion. Let me try again and state them in terms of core, independent values.

(1) I have a right to be physically and emotionally safe by being free of violent actions
(2) I have a right to be respected for my own feelings and opinions
(3) I have a right to protect myself by leaving a volatile situation

Is that better? Right now it's hard to be articulating boundaries in terms of myself because I'm focussed on how my BPD partner is hurting me, which is to say I want to create boundaries that she understand cannot be crossed.

#3, being able to safely leave a conflict, is a big one.  Yes, this needs to be on your boundary list.  You need to be able to take a short break, for example, saying "I need to take a break so I can clear my head and come back to be a better listener, I'm going to take a walk and be back in 20 minutes."  Has your wife ever physically prevented you from leaving a room, from leaving the house, or from using your car?

My wife regularly bullies me into staying in a charged situation. Even though we have been advised countless times that it's OK to take a timeout, she will berate and belittle me if I try to get away. She might chase after me or accuse me of cowardice, lack of caring, etc. All this even if I say simply, "I need a time out. I'll be back in ten minutes."

You talked about not being sure you can sign up for being an emotional caretaker forever.  Our pwBPD are all individuals.  And so are we.  BPD symptoms are not uniform across pwBPD, and vary in severity.  The tools taught here can help some couples do well.  For other couples, they don't improve things enough to sustain the relationship.  Regardless, remember this very important point -- when we all first arrived here, we were all doing many things to make the situation worse.  Regardless of the ultimate future of your relationship, you will benefit from learning and applying the tools.  You will get yourself to a less anguished place, you will be certain you gave it your all, and if you are to separate, you will have learned skills to make coparenting more effective.  You don't have to sign up for a lifetime membership here   Just get started and see where it takes you.

WW

[Radcliff]

downheart, I just looked at your post count and was surprised that you're only at 10 posts.  I would have guessed it was more.  You've covered a lot of ground in your first 10 posts 

Good on the core values.  For #2, can you identify specific actions you can take to protect yourself?  That's a basic requirement for a defensible boundary.  Lack of respect is a challenging one to protect yourself against.  I'm not saying that you shouldn't have it as a boundary, it just can be a challenge to figure out the protective action that goes with it.  Taking a break can work if it gets out of hand.  For projection, I'd refer you back to my suggestions above.

My wife regularly bullies me into staying in a charged situation. Even though we have been advised countless times that it's OK to take a timeout, she will berate and belittle me if I try to get away. She might chase after me or accuse me of cowardice, lack of caring, etc. All this even if I say simply, "I need a time out. I'll be back in ten minutes."

I made some progress at this by being super patient and validating a lot.  I was able to save some conversations, but it took a long time and a ton of effort.  Often it was worth it.  Sometimes I think I gave too much.  Have we talked about JADE yet?  Look for room to improve how you're handing things... .but, sometimes you just need to take a break.  My wife absolutely never could accept this.  She would chase me around the house, ridicule me, and even assault me for leaving, or she would block the exit.  It sounds like you need to improve your protective actions here.  Can you go for a drive?  When you leave, do you tell her how long until you're back, and is it something short like 10-20 minutes?  Could you start with baby steps and tell her you just need to use the bathroom?  How can you remove yourself enough that you are able to take a break without being harrassed?

WW

[downheart]

I made some progress at this by being super patient and validating a lot.  I was able to save some conversations, but it took a long time and a ton of effort.  Often it was worth it.  Sometimes I think I gave too much.  Have we talked about JADE yet?  Look for room to improve how you're handing things... .but, sometimes you just need to take a break. 

I hadn't seen this JADE idea before. I have to say that this is something that I need to take some time to reflect on and whether I can accept this as a permanent part of a relationship. I spent the last several months essentially avoiding any JADE because I had basically given up. I figured that if I just validated whatever my wife said, no matter how absurd, and apologized then maybe she could come back to me later and say, "I was out of control. I was unkind. Tell me how you feel." Instead, it seemed like things just got more and more crazy - partly it seemed because she was not getting any confrontational response from me that she was used to and partly maybe because she wanted not just validation of her feelings, but validation of her reality. I think she wanted me to always respond essentially with "you're right. that was wrong of me. I will change." Instead, if I said anything at all I'd say "I have a different take on this and maybe you can ask me about that some other time." But she never did.

So I'm reading this JADE stuff and thinking sure I get how JADE doesn't work for a pwBPD. But am I prepared, do I have the strength, is it healthy and will I be happy in such an unbalanced conflict environment. I can't be a passive doormat forever, but that seems to be the required acceptance for a non.

[once removed]

I can't be a passive doormat forever, but that seems to be the required acceptance for a non.

far from it, downheart.

being in these relationships does require someone who can weather the storms, yes. and it requires a high level of patience and understanding.

being a doormat is no way to live, its certainly no way to have a healthy or workable relationship.

if you look at any of the tools, or read the "what it takes" article, it paints a person with strength, strong boundaries, a well differentiated sense of self, a leader, who takes very good care of themselves, isnt reactive to the person with BPD and their changing moods/distortions/projections.

i dont mean to suggest that youre not any of those things if you exit the relationship, far from that too. it can be the most difficult and trying of decisions to make. i just want you to understand that "sitting back and taking it" is not a, or the, strategy. its good to examine all of this, and its good to be honest and realistic with yourself.

learning not to JADE was about several things for me. i recognize when im triggered and am feeling defensive. i dont waste my words, and i dont try to make my point more than once or twice. i dont validate the invalid by defending myself against distortions or projections. i dont escalate conflict by "giving it back", or upping the ante, or engaging in a circular argument. i was (still can be) pretty prone to those things.

validation is just a good life skill when it comes to communication. its not about "yes honey, youre right as usual". its about active listening, and responding to what our partners are expressing, and acknowledgement of their feelings; none of that is about agreement. it can help before things escalate too much. but its best to start with an emphasis on "not being invalidating". a lot of us do that, usually unknowingly (i was pretty deliberate about it), and it makes things worse. where a lot of members go wrong when they start with validation is that theres an impression that validation will solve every conflict or dysregulation, or that validation = "i understand how you feel but you are wrong", or being very unnatural with it at first. all of this stuff takes practice. use it with friends and family; i use these tools all the time and theres no one with BPD in my life.

as for your wifes narrative about the relationship and her part in it: try, to the extent you can, to remove yourself from the picture and look at it from 30000 ft. think of an alcoholic, for example. there are two major roadblocks to an alcoholic accepting that there is a problem, seeing their role in it, and affecting change: denial and shame. you get both with BPD.

and right now, things are in the intervention stage. a lot can go wrong. a lot can go right. and a lot can go wrong before things go right. its a tall order. its also a possibility, its just very important to keep your expectations realistic - none of this will be solved over night.

i hear that youre feeling pretty depressed. i think a lot of us spend significant amounts of time running on adrenaline in these relationships, and when we get time and space from our partners, all of that stuff peaks. would you say that you may also be experiencing a level of grief? are you addressing it with your therapist?

[Radcliff]

You make some very good points.  Avoiding JADE and being a doormat is not a great longterm plan, for sure.  There are more skills to learn, such as SET and DEARMAN, that can help some of us "nons' get more traction on things we need from our pwBPD.  JADE is about keeping ourselves from making things worse.  Other tools can be used to try to gain ground.  I personally found SET and DEARMAN very difficult to use with my wife, but am having much better success with my BPD-traits sister.  Every person is unique.

Even though I didn't make as much progress as I was hoping to with my wife, I never have regretted jumping on the non-JADE bandwagon early and staying on it.  For me, JADE was ineffective, and always made things worse.  Giving it up meant I was no longer making things worse in that way.  Resuming it wouldn't have helped.

One key thing about JADE that many don't realize is that if your pwBPD makes a wild accusation against you, defending yourself against it actually gives it credibility by saying that it's real enough to you that you feel threatened and compelled to defend yourself.  By defending yourself, you essentially are admitting that it is true!  

The way I look at it, JADE is one of the simplest tools to understand.  It makes sense to get good at it, then start on more advanced tools.  Validating is another early tool to use.  To learn more about validation, take a look at this excellent page on how to validate and avoid being invalidating.

All of the traps that you mention I have fallen into, too.  Agreeing with everything seemed like it was worth a try, but didn't work.  That's not what validation is about.  A big part about validation is that you are not supposed to "validate the invalid."  When you think about it, if you validate true things and BS, you weaken the power of your validation -- it's meaningless.  You must stay true to yourself.  Two keys to navigating these tough waters are: 1.  Validating feelings, and 2.  Partial validation.  Your wife's feelings are always valid, because they are real to her.  You can show compassion and empathy for how she feels, reflecting it back to her.  Think about any times when you might have been dysregulated dealing with a frustrating customer service situation on the phone.  You may have had experiences where the rep validated your feelings and you instantly calmed down and could work together.  Perhaps you've had experiences where the rep was invalidating, and you hit the roof (I know I have  ).  Validating emotions is powerful, and you can do it without validating bad facts.  Which gets us to partial validation.  If your wife hurls a long list of grievances at you, search in the pile for anything that is true, pick it out of the pile and validate it genuinely.

For example, if you're five minutes late getting home for dinner, and your wife says you were 20 minutes late, you are selfish, you're probably having an affair, and you've never added any value for her in the entire history of your marriage, you can apologize for being late, and validate her feelings around that.  The other stuff is garbage -- try to just let it whiz past you.  I had decent success with partial validation with my wife, and she is a pretty tough case.  It's nice when it works!

I can't promise you that getting good at these skills is going to get your marriage to where you need it to go.  But it beats the heck out of thrashing.  You will feel more in control of your destiny, and more confident that you've done all you could if you start contemplating separation, and you will be healthier if that day comes.  In the near to medicum term, you'll spend less energy making things worse, and will be able to mitigate the damage to you, your wife, and those near you.

Getting back to my original point, each pwBPD is different.  With my sample of two people, I've been able to use the basic skills with both to avoid making things worse, and the advanced skills with one of them to get to a good relationship.

WW