So I went to lunch with my ex just to catch up

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Well to both struggler and Cromwell, you are dead on with what you are saying.Ill give you the perfect example of what just happened to me this  past weekend that proves both your points of how we are just part of a harem “or planted seed  for further harvest”. So I went to lunch with my ex just to catch up , and at the beginning everything went pretty normal.She was hung over from her previous nights activities which showed me she was still drinking pretty heavy.After lunch we took a walk and sat by a fountain where she placed her head on me and took my arm.Usually this would have triggered me back to the good old days ,it had the desired effect she wanted in a sense I just pet her hair but I was actively conscious what she was doing.( securing and bringing me back in as a supply for her to use at will).We later spoke awhile together where certain emotional triggers came out, and overall I knew how much  trouble I was in that day having put myself within physical affection range ... .hugs , kisses ,and the playful touching.As I backed away in my mind and watched this act unfold I realized just how talented these human beings are at manipulating others.Experts in their fields on all levels from the looks,touch,spoken words , and even just their presence.When educated on their tactics it’s an obvious act but I could see why and how I feel for it the first time easily.They are professionals at making sure they never feel alone , regardless of the people they use or manipulate to do so ,and they do it with frightening accuracy and vigor .

With that said your comment of where was she when I needed her or what about my needs couldn’t be more dead on.For two months she avoided me physically “most likely because she was with someone else and still is” but I fear this someone else isn’t attentive like I was to her.My best guess is this new toy hasn’t mouthed the words I love you yet ,or treats her like a princess(like I used to).But then again I’m starting to believe she is capable of still having a second me in her life that has done those things for her and still is , but it’s just not enough.I don’t think anyone person will be enough for her , and she needs multiple sources always ! When I was with her Sunday walking and talking , as I gazed at her behind my sunglasses ,all I could think was poor creature .To go through life never truely knowing what “real” love is,what she had in her hands numerous times by numerous men ,thrown out or worse yet she never even knew she had it? Like tossing out a winning scratch ticket because the joy you get is to scratch them not to actually win anything .I even went as far as saying to myself ,imagine that... .of the millions of sperms that raced to the egg this one won,and her mother f$$ed it all up and caused this human of chaos.Life is not a fair game boys, and these moments prove it .Such a beautiful woman and mother living in complete agony everyday drinking herself into an early grave all for fear of not wanting to be alone and she’s doing the exact opposite of what she needs to do to garantie this doesn’t happen.

I had a hard time on Sunday night and for that matter right now as I type this because frankly I’m very disappointed in myself for seeing her yesterday.Not because I’m hooked back in, I am not,but more for having restimulated feelings that were almost gone.Having her touch me with her hands,head,lips was like lightening coursing through my veins .Her words like , damn you,or I love you,I miss you, I miss having lying on top of you in your arms , her calling me baby again, were overwhelming to hear even knowing they were her act to catch me in her web.She studied me very well over the last 8 months and she played the same cards she’s been playing with me since the beginning.The good news is I saw it coming and wasn’t blind sided by it.I realized I still care for her even in her broken state I still love the broken woman in front of me not the dream woman I wanted .But I know I can’t and don’t want her back as a lover/partner because she can never be trusted , not ever.She says she’s in therapy ,and hopefully this can be true but it will not fix her .She still drinks and uses drugs and if those two things are happening the reckless high risk sex is also happening for sure further putting her physically in danger.These are the things that real my heart but I know I can’t fix.I think to some extent that “knight in shining armor” complex kicks in for all of us ?Because at the beginning when she was always with me during her free time ,she wasn’t doing these things to herself she seemed “happy”.But as usual and to their patterns, she slowly retracted back to her old self and away from me (just like all your partners ) and they went right back to their old self destructing ways.This triggered me at the time to try and correct or fix her and this is a common mistake we all made and felt horrible for letting it happen.Only now do we realize they were always like this ,before us,during us,and after us ... .and none of it was our fault.

It has been one hell of an experience being at the receiving end of a borderline woman, overwhelming joy and overwhelming anxiety and anger.Not once have inexperience such extremes in a short span of time from anything and I can now understand how intoxicating it is to live in that adrenaline/dopamine rush.But it’s enormously exhausting and I’ve even developed medical issues from it which hopefully over time will go away.To see some people on here do “years!” ,decades is astounding and just goes to show there are much stronger people out there than me ! In many ways I envy their strength and persistence and I’m sure in their way they envy me for bailing out so fast.

[Shawnlam]

Well to both struggler and Cromwell, you are dead on with what you are saying.Ill give you the perfect example of what just happened to me this  past weekend that proves both your points of how we are just part of a harem “or planted seed  for further harvest”. So I went to lunch with my ex just to catch up , and at the beginning everything went pretty normal.She was hung over from her previous nights activities which showed me she was still drinking pretty heavy.After lunch we took a walk and sat by a fountain where she placed her head on me and took my arm.Usually this would have triggered me back to the good old days ,it had the desired effect she wanted in a sense I just pet her hair but I was actively conscious what she was doing.( securing and bringing me back in as a supply for her to use at will).We later spoke awhile together where certain emotional triggers came out, and overall I knew how much  trouble I was in that day having put myself within physical affection range ... .hugs , kisses ,and the playful touching.As I backed away in my mind and watched this act unfold I realized just how talented these human beings are at manipulating others.Experts in their fields on all levels from the looks,touch,spoken words , and even just their presence.When educated on their tactics it’s an obvious act but I could see why and how I feel for it the first time easily.They are professionals at making sure they never feel alone , regardless of the people they use or manipulate to do so ,and they do it with frightening accuracy and vigor .

With that said your comment of where was she when I needed her or what about my needs couldn’t be more dead on.For two months she avoided me physically “most likely because she was with someone else and still is” but I fear this someone else isn’t attentive like I was to her.My best guess is this new toy hasn’t mouthed the words I love you yet ,or treats her like a princess(like I used to).But then again I’m starting to believe she is capable of still having a second me in her life that has done those things for her and still is , but it’s just not enough.I don’t think anyone person will be enough for her , and she needs multiple sources always ! When I was with her Sunday walking and talking , as I gazed at her behind my sunglasses ,all I could think was poor creature .To go through life never truely knowing what “real” love is,what she had in her hands numerous times by numerous men ,thrown out or worse yet she never even knew she had it? Like tossing out a winning scratch ticket because the joy you get is to scratch them not to actually win anything .I even went as far as saying to myself ,imagine that... .of the millions of sperms that raced to the egg this one won,and her mother f$$ed it all up and caused this human of chaos.Life is not a fair game boys, and these moments prove it .Such a beautiful woman and mother living in complete agony everyday drinking herself into an early grave all for fear of not wanting to be alone and she’s doing the exact opposite of what she needs to do to garantie this doesn’t happen.

I had a hard time on Sunday night and for that matter right now as I type this because frankly I’m very disappointed in myself for seeing her yesterday.Not because I’m hooked back in, I am not,but more for having restimulated feelings that were almost gone.Having her touch me with her hands,head,lips was like lightening coursing through my veins .Her words like , damn you,or I love you,I miss you, I miss having lying on top of you in your arms , her calling me baby again, were overwhelming to hear even knowing they were her act to catch me in her web.She studied me very well over the last 8 months and she played the same cards she’s been playing with me since the beginning.The good news is I saw it coming and wasn’t blind sided by it.I realized I still care for her even in her broken state I still love the broken woman in front of me not the dream woman I wanted .But I know I can’t and don’t want her back as a lover/partner because she can never be trusted , not ever.She says she’s in therapy ,and hopefully this can be true but it will not fix her .She still drinks and uses drugs and if those two things are happening the reckless high risk sex is also happening for sure further putting her physically in danger.These are the things that real my heart but I know I can’t fix.I think to some extent that “knight in shining armor” complex kicks in for all of us ?Because at the beginning when she was always with me during her free time ,she wasn’t doing these things to herself she seemed “happy”.But as usual and to their patterns, she slowly retracted back to her old self and away from me (just like all your partners ) and they went right back to their old self destructing ways.This triggered me at the time to try and correct or fix her and this is a common mistake we all made and felt horrible for letting it happen.Only now do we realize they were always like this ,before us,during us,and after us ... .and none of it was our fault.

It has been one hell of an experience being at the receiving end of a borderline woman, overwhelming joy and overwhelming anxiety and anger.Not once have inexperience such extremes in a short span of time from anything and I can now understand how intoxicating it is to live in that adrenaline/dopamine rush.But it’s enormously exhausting and I’ve even developed medical issues from it which hopefully over time will go away.To see some people on here do “years!” ,decades is astounding and just goes to show there are much stronger people out there than me ! In many ways I envy their strength and persistence and I’m sure in their way they envy me for bailing out so fast.

[MyBPD_friend]

Shawnlam,

Thanks a lot for these words to which I can relate so much, possibly most people here can.

I'm about to ask a question in a new thread which deals about meeting again by accident.
I closed any contact with my 'friend' four weeks ago with a new phone number, along with a written letter to her.

For everything you said, I do not intend totalk to this woman again, she's just like the woman you've described. I feel very sorry for her but that's all.

[Struggler123]

  Shawnlam

Thats my biggest fear, the way that for you just seeing her and being with her triggered all of that. I know if I speak to her on the phone, she will somehow make me feel like “she was a victim and I left her with no choice.” She was only trying to satisfy everyone around her so she took this big step. The truth of the matter is that she made her choice and she rubbed it in my face, whether she meant to or not. I know that I will be easily discarded, when the phrase comes “talking to you, is not right to my fiance.” Its always about them, as hard as it is to admit it. It was all about me taking care of her needs.  If she really wanted to be my friend, she would have at least given me a chance, like hey look this is whats going on and this isnt an ultimatium, but the threats of her getting married to someone else were happening for months up until she found someone else, and who knows how long she was talking to this new guy. I don’t blame her or the BPD, because I fell for her. I had the red flags in front of me, but I tried to make things different. I thought I could make her better, but I couldn’t and thats not my fault but, thats reality. She’s a good person, her minds just in the wrong place and I hope that she does get better not for other people but for herself. I do want to believe that she has good intentions because those are MY values. Shawn, I completey agree with you, but let your anger go and you will be more at peace. The past helps us grow. In time, we will use this experience to form more healthy relationships and strive to do better.

[Skip]

I had a hard time on Sunday night and for that matter right now as I type this because frankly I’m very disappointed in myself for seeing her yesterday.Not because I’m hooked back in, I am not,but more for having restimulated feelings that were almost gone.Having her touch me with her hands,head,lips was like lightening coursing through my veins .Her words like , damn you,or I love you,I miss you, I miss having lying on top of you in your arms , her calling me baby again, were overwhelming to hear even knowing they were her act to catch me in her web.

Shawnlam,

I think you are misreading this situation and causing yourself a great deal of suffering in the process. This hypothesis about her evil cunning Sunday doesn't make any sense at all.

Look at the big picture:

1. The relationship was fast and awesome for 100 days.  

2. She got bit spooked and wanted to slow things down a bit.

3. Rather than attend to her feelings, you got hurt and very aggressive and handled things badly (e.g., breaking up multiple times to teach her a lesson)

4. She handled your reaction badly by avoiding you more and more.

It become an escalating cycle of conflict.

You were manipulative. She was passive aggressive.

5. Relationship is now in its third breakup in 4 months. You tried o use breakups as a way to make her more attentive. She canceled dates on you at the last minute, because she didn't want to deal with it. When you blocked her a third time, she stood up for herself and broke up.

6. Now that she neutralized your aggression and your pressure and turned the tables, the two of you just had a testing of the waters. See it for what it is. If she had a new beau, she would be idealizing him and you would not hear from her right now.

Is she drinking? You could be right about that. You have been getting drunk on a regular basis too.

Did she go on any dates? You broke up with her twice -  she certainly had the right to date. When she broke up with you she and has the right to date. You immediately responded by jumping on the dating sites yourself. Breaking up often creates messes.

Was the get together this weekend the reuniting you had hoped it to be? No. And I wouldn't have expected it to be. You have been hard on her for five months, it is going to take changes on your part and time to get this relationship on track. She cracked the door open - she will be careful.

Is your post-lunch reaction constructive? No. It's the same thinking that has been crashing this relationship for the last five months. It doesn't work Shawn. You played all the cards... .it only made things worse.

A little tough love here... .if you want her back, man up, see your mistakes, clean it up, and accept that it will take time and be uncertain until she trusts you - and if you do reconnect, she will want enough space to have her own mind and take care of her kids, have friends, etc. You will need to abandon the mind set that has been the breeding ground for the behavior that alienates her rather than the behavior that might have resolved this. Her feelings of engulfment are not uncommon - in fact, probably typical - after a whirlwind romance. Engulfment, like most emotions, is heighten with BPD. When someone feels engulfed in a relationship - that the relationship or the partner is taking away their independence and freedom on some level, becoming angry and demanding is like pouring gasoline in your fireplace to put of the fire.

If you think she is a POS as you keep telling us... .man up and walk away. Don't get together for lunch to pet her hair and kiss her and then come back looking to be validated on how she is wrong in all of what has happened and you were right. This is just asking us to enable bad behavior and we don't want to do that. We don't want to judge and we won't - but at the same time, we don't want to enable extended unhealthy posting.

[Shawnlam]

Shawnlam,

I think you are misreading this situation and causing yourself a great deal of suffering in the process. This hypothesis about another her evil cunning ways doesn't make any sense at all.

1. The relationship was fast and awesome for 100 days. 

2. She got bit spooked and wanted to slow things down a bit.

3. Rather than attend to her feelings, you got hurt and very aggressive and handled things badly.

4. She handled your reaction badly by avoiding you more and more. It become an escalating cycle of conflict.

You were manipulative. She was passive aggressive.

5. Relationship is now in its third breakup in 5 months. Two were your doing. You tried o use breakups as a way to make her more attentive. She canceled dates on you at the last minute, because she didn't want to deal with the pressure. When you blocked her a third time, she stood up for herself and broke up.

6. Now that she neutralized your aggression and pressure and turned the tables, the two of you just had a testing of the waters.

Is she drinking? You could be right about that. You have been getting drunk on a regular basis too.

Did she go on any dates? You were very aggressive in the last 5 months and broke up with her twice -  she certainly had the right to date. When she broke up with you, you immediately responded by jumping on the dating sites yourself.

Was the get together this weekend the reuniting you had hoped it to be? No. And I wouldn't expect it to be. You have been hard on her for five months, that is going to take time to clean up.

Is your reaction to the lunch constructive? No. It's the same thinking that has been crashing this relationship for the last five months.

A little tough love here... .if you want her back, man up, see your mistakes, clean it up, and accept that it will take time and be uncertain until she trusts you - and it you do reconnect, she will want enough space to have her own mind and take care of her kids, have friends, etc. Abandon the mideset that has been the breeding ground for the behavior that alienates her rather than the behavior that might have resolved her jitters. Feelings of engulfment are not uncommon - in fact, probably typical - after a whirlwind romance. Engulfment, like most emotions, is heighten with BPD. When someone feels engulfed in a relationship - that the relationship or the partner is taking away their independence and freedom on some level, becoming angry and demanding is like pouring gasoline in your fireplace to put of the fire.

If you think she is a POS as you keep telling us... .man up and walk away. Don't get together for lunch to pet her hair and hope she will strong one in the relationship and court you.

There is nothing to man up to here skip, there was never an intention to get back together as a couple .Dont forget I’ve known this woman for 5+ years before we became intimate.With that said I don’t need to walk away from her in order to “move on” as you put it. Also you conveniently  tend to leave out the fact SHE wanted to move in,SHE got pregnant and asked if I wanted to keep it and SHE asked me about marriage .Besides spending endless sums of money to treat her for what I thought she deserved to be treated like , went through an abortion in order to save her health because she almost died twice with the two kids she had , and me not signing a lease to a fancy apartment I’m not seeing this passive aggressive attiude here ? You tend to forget very easily the roller coaster ride of here constant false promises and suggestions  all endless since December .I just backed out of the game she was playing because frankly it was pure insanity.No normal human can sit there and take the ( let’s move in together,let’s not,l want you to meet my family next week ,oh no I changed my mind ,let’s rent a chalet next weekend oh whoops I’m gonna go on another vacation instead with my gf last minute sorry you lost 2 grand in deposits ) it was pure stupidity and frankly. All knowing it was pure impulsive behavior that drove me insane so I folded the cards and walked away.You can type away that I did a whole bunch of things wrong but I’m afraid you are the one that’s incorrect here ,you have but shades of the story on all the torment ,mind games and emotional tantrums she took,caused. She then as per the BPD handbook blamed everything on my insecurity and you bought that?  Yeah no brother sorry but you are way way off .Im someone who speaks his mind and when I see BS I call it BS .

As for manning up , I went to lunch to catchup and see how her anxiety and life  was doing, her advances of affection and texts afterwards were yet again BPD handbook dead on.Shes just trying her same tactics like at the beginning except this time Fido ain’t playing along because he knows what’s gonna happen .My few but fruitful normal relationships in life prove I know how to treat a normal woman, her catastrophic endless log book of men and abortions says the contrary story.I don’t regret to an extend what I did to stick up for myself (at that time I didn’t know she had BPD), would I have managed it different to not trigger her anxiety? Sure I would of but in the end,this relationship was doomed regardless I would just have ended it on better footing for her not me .I never took away her independence or freedom at all,she just wanted her cake and to eat it to.When you say you are gonna do something with someone and make the plans then cancel literally hours before and don’t expect the partner to get angry the you’d be a fool and frankly self centered and somewhat narcissistic.If someone wants their free time (DONT PLAN OR OFFER IT OUT), much easier to live that way.I spent 4 days maybe a month(yes a month) with her , if you call that suffocating someone or being too demanding then frankly I think the outlook on relationship definition should be next on the reading list.If you don’t have time for a relationship then don’t be in one it’s just common curtesy.
I could give literally endless examples of all her BS suggestions ,promises ,etc and the never ending failure to execute any of them or in some cases do the exact opposite just to play games .With that said I didn’t misread  anything ,I’ve never seen so clear and with precision as now , BPD isn’t an excuse blanket it’s an explanation. She can “feel “what she wants with how things went down in her emotional mind ,I won’t argue it and I’ll let her believe what she wants without even an argument from my behalf (whatever makes her feel better).If she wants to play games by saying I love you’s again or playing the affection games thinking I’m hopping in that boat again blind and dumb,not gonna happen. I’m leaving things as is,I answer her texts and am very respectful of her and her volatile emotional state.But I’ve not answered her ( I’d like to see you again ,I’d like to spend time with you now) texts .Why? because I know exactly what she is doing and what she wants to happen ,why? I don’t know ,most likely to keep me in the bucket of ex boyfriends she has for attention... .sorry but not gonna happen with me .Friends sure , go for meals or a movie sure , sex = no and any talk of relationship =no .Besides that I regret treating her the way I did never knowing her emotional state ,but I still would not have put up with her constant mind games which you seem to blame on my behavior somehow , sorry not buying it.

[Skip]

As for manning up , I went to lunch to catch up and see how her anxiety and life was doing... .

So even though she is a lying, cheating (or not cheatinng, depends on which story you are going with today), abusive person who has stood you up and humiliates you every time you try to schedule a date, you decided to call her to arrange a "catchup/wellness check" date?

Even though she she wouldn't see you for weeks when you were dating and she just broke up, has another boyfriend (well maybe), she now agrees because she wants see you to make you a backup boy?

When you got together, you found out it was not a "catchup" date. Instead she used incredible skills to get you to kiss her and stroke her hair so she could put you in a holding pen for future abuse. But you could see through her scam and you kissed her and stroked her hair but didn't take the bait?

This is your best read on the situation - both on yourself and her?  

Friends, sure

go for meals, sure,

a movie, sure,

sex, no.

I don’t know, most likely to keep me in the bucket of ex boyfriends she has for attention... .sorry but not gonna happen with me.

And you got the last laugh. You didn't take the bait. There will be no sex for her when she wants it. You're in control.

If you still love her,being friends will be completely impossible. Because of your precise relationship and the whole engagement and how that was delivered to you as a ultimatum, speaking to her must be excruciating. But you did the right thing by not taking that ultimatum,you saved yourself and frankly to some extent you saved her from yet another dissatisfaction/ sabotaged relationship. Dont feel bad about not talking to her,but feeling sad is perfectly normal on every level. Even if she gets the better of you and you do answer her texts ,well YOUR intentions are pure ... .never forget that... .it won’t make you a lesser person , but it will hurt you to continue speaking.In time it may reside but maybe not,I foreone can’t continue seeing her or talking without triggering my feelings today’s test for me proved it.

You said this 12 hours ago. This advice you shared with others was written after the "catch date" and "friends plan" you described above.

Shawn... .you what are you doing, man? This is crazy talk all around. How are you going to navigate this turbulent sea with such a crazy compass?

It seems to me that before she broke up, you were trying to schedule lunch date with her for weeks - you finally got one. This is what you hoping for 3 weeks ago. Now you got it, you are telling us all it's really a trick and you are too smart for that.

This thinking not helping you... .or her or the relationship or anyone here.

Isn't a more sensible explanation for all of this is that once she had broken up (and taken that tactic you used to teach her a lesson, away from you), and you have backed off the aggressive behavior - she cracked the door open to see if you are in a better, less aggressive place.

If this is the case, all this protective story making/blaming is self sabotaging - a lose/lose situation -  sabotaging your efforts to restore the relationship and sabotaging your efforts to move on (which ever you really want).

Lose/lose is never a good plan.

I'm not encouraging you to stay or leave, you have to make that decision. I am encouraging you to  make a more realistic assessment of the situation, your behaviors, and your intent. If you are just hopelessly confused or conflicted or just afraid or sad, its OK. It would be far better for you to just admit that reality here than to create far fetched narratives that make it seem like you are a victim and in control and taking the high road. The situation is a real conflicted mess and you both have done some really destructive things... .and yet you both are not ready to fully let go (or go forward).

Clarity will really help.

Besides that I regret treating her the way I did never knowing her emotional state, but I still would not have put up with her constant mind games which you seem to blame on my behavior somehow, sorry not buying it.

It's not about her illness or blame.  Aggressively over-pursuing anyone who feels engulfed, Shawn, is a relationship killer - it does a lot of damage. Whatever baggage she has, notwithstanding, there is a lot of damage and she is very guarded now. You can blame this on her or you can look at what happened and change.

You didn't cause her to make the last minute cancellations - that was very bad form and hurtful for sure -  no on is putting that on you.  But all the "you are not doing your part" pressure from you over the holidays and subsequent breakups "to teach her a lesson" has taken its toll on her and it would have taken its toll on anyone.

If you don't see this, you are destined to re-live it in the future.

[Struggler123]

Shawn, what I feel like skip is trying to portray is that, two wrongs don’t make a right. BPD is the cause of what we faced, but you have to realize that the anger inside of you is wrong for you and for your future partner. Ultimately, you have to figure out what you want. Put aside all the differences, just the good and the bad, can you be with this person? Do you see a future with this person?


The truth is Shawn, just like me, you still have feelings for her and you are trying so hard to fight them with anger, projection and these mixed emotions, its clouding your judgement. That is perfectly normal, but let me ask you something, if being angry at her could make her BPD go away it will NEVER happen, just like parking a car in the garage and standing in it, doesnt make you a car. It takes time and a lot of understanding to reach the point of where these things don’t affect you anymore. The truth is you wanted to catch up with her because you wished she changed and that somehow things would have been different, but this time your guard up pulled in and you felt, theres something wrong with this. The thing is though. We were the ones to stay in the relationship for as long as we did, because WE THOUGHT WE COULD FIX THINGS. We have to share some responsibility as well. In no way, do I regret meeting my ex, she gave me some of the best memories that i’ll never forget, but in order for me to be strong about this, I had to cut the contact and think to myself, that maybe we are better off without each other. Similar to the way, soon you will realize that you are better off without her, and if you do decide to pursue her, thats perfectly okay too. But, go with a different mind set, its not a game to see who will win, thats what video games are for, not girlfriends. Find yourself someone you can grow with not grow angry with it. Thats not just for a BPD relationship its for any relationship. Concentrate on being the best person you can possibly be, as for your BPD she will come around and maybe by then you would be in a better place. Trust me,  when you begin to treat yourself, you realize that everything happens for a reason and maybe something good will come out of it. You’re a smart guy, and youve helped me become better, look deep within yourself and only when we have accepted the things that scare us the most do we accomplish greatness. Don’t fight fire with fire, because all you will get is a bigger fire. You will find the love you deserve, take this as a learning experience and use that anger to make sure you love yourself enough that you will treat your next SO with the uttermost respect and love that you deserve as well.

[MyBPD_friend]

Shawn, what I feel like skip is trying to portray is that, two wrongs don’t make a right. BPD is the cause of what we faced, but you have to realize that the anger inside of you is wrong for you and for your future partner. Ultimately, you have to figure out what you want. Put aside all the differences, just the good and the bad, can you be with this person? Do you see a future with this person?


The truth is Shawn, just like me, you still have feelings for her and you are trying so hard to fight them with anger, projection and these mixed emotions, its clouding your judgement. That is perfectly normal, but let me ask you something, if being angry at her could make her BPD go away it will NEVER happen, just like parking a car in the garage and standing in it, doesnt make you a car. It takes time and a lot of understanding to reach the point of where these things don’t affect you anymore. The truth is you wanted to catch up with her because you wished she changed and that somehow things would have been different, but this time your guard up pulled in and you felt, theres something wrong with this. The thing is though. We were the ones to stay in the relationship for as long as we did, because WE THOUGHT WE COULD FIX THINGS. We have to share some responsibility as well. In no way, do I regret meeting my ex, she gave me some of the best memories that i’ll never forget, but in order for me to be strong about this, I had to cut the contact and think to myself, that maybe we are better off without each other. Similar to the way, soon you will realize that you are better off without her, and if you do decide to pursue her, thats perfectly okay too. But, go with a different mind set, its not a game to see who will win, thats what video games are for, not girlfriends. Find yourself someone you can grow with not grow angry with it. Thats not just for a BPD relationship its for any relationship. Concentrate on being the best person you can possibly be, as for your BPD she will come around and maybe by then you would be in a better place. Trust me,  when you begin to treat yourself, you realize that everything happens for a reason and maybe something good will come out of it. You’re a smart guy, and youve helped me become better, look deep within yourself and only when we have accepted the things that scare us the most do we accomplish greatness. Don’t fight fire with fire, because all you will get is a bigger fire. You will find the love you deserve, take this as a learning experience and use that anger to make sure you love yourself enough that you will treat your next SO with the uttermost respect and love that you deserve as well.

Shawn, what I've learned over the past 4-6 months is also about myself.
I needed, I wanted to know, why I fell for this woman, why the hell did have such a deep and previously unexperienced impact on me emotionally. To learn about myself and my past was essential to me and my understanding.

I'm happily married, my wife is the best person ever, still I fell for this woman - why.

What I want to point out is, that there is a reason for these things, and it might be painful to get to the basis of that, but to me that's the only way to solve an inner conflict.

I've realized, that my mother was a key influence for my lack of love as a child, a lack of real care and understanding. I never felt whole as a child, teenager and young adult.  It took me 30 years until today, still learning, to become the whole person I am.
And yet, this woman was capable of challanging my life for twelve months.

I can heal myself with time... .I can't heal her, or any other personality disordered person.
Getting better, becoming a healthy person has to come from oneself.

My love for this woman is not real love, I loved what she did to me, how she treated me and how she accepted me as a whole. BUT this was all BPD fake and not reality.

[Shawnlam]

Shawnlam,

I think you are misreading this situation and causing yourself a great deal of suffering in the process. This hypothesis about her evil cunning Sunday doesn't make any sense at all.

Look at the big picture:

1. The relationship was fast and awesome for 100 days.  

2. She got bit spooked and wanted to slow things down a bit.

3. Rather than attend to her feelings, you got hurt and very aggressive and handled things badly (e.g., breaking up multiple times to teach her a lesson)

4. She handled your reaction badly by avoiding you more and more.

It become an escalating cycle of conflict.

You were manipulative. She was passive aggressive.

5. Relationship is now in its third breakup in 4 months. You tried o use breakups as a way to make her more attentive. She canceled dates on you at the last minute, because she didn't want to deal with it. When you blocked her a third time, she stood up for herself and broke up.

6. Now that she neutralized your aggression and your pressure and turned the tables, the two of you just had a testing of the waters. See it for what it is. If she had a new beau, she would be idealizing him and you would not hear from her right now.

Is she drinking? You could be right about that. You have been getting drunk on a regular basis too.

Did she go on any dates? You broke up with her twice -  she certainly had the right to date. When she broke up with you she and has the right to date. You immediately responded by jumping on the dating sites yourself. Breaking up often creates messes.

Was the get together this weekend the reuniting you had hoped it to be? No. And I wouldn't have expected it to be. You have been hard on her for five months, it is going to take changes on your part and time to get this relationship on track. She cracked the door open - she will be careful.

Is your post-lunch reaction constructive? No. It's the same thinking that has been crashing this relationship for the last five months. It doesn't work Shawn. You played all the cards... .it only made things worse.

A little tough love here... .if you want her back, man up, see your mistakes, clean it up, and accept that it will take time and be uncertain until she trusts you - and if you do reconnect, she will want enough space to have her own mind and take care of her kids, have friends, etc. You will need to abandon the mind set that has been the breeding ground for the behavior that alienates her rather than the behavior that might have resolved this. Her feelings of engulfment are not uncommon - in fact, probably typical - after a whirlwind romance. Engulfment, like most emotions, is heighten with BPD. When someone feels engulfed in a relationship - that the relationship or the partner is taking away their independence and freedom on some level, becoming angry and demanding is like pouring gasoline in your fireplace to put of the fire.

If you think she is a POS as you keep telling us... .man up and walk away. Don't get together for lunch to pet her hair and kiss her and then come back looking to be validated on how she is wrong in all of what has happened and you were right. This is just asking us to enable bad behavior and we don't want to do that. We don't want to judge and we won't - but at the same time, we don't want to enable extended unhealthy posting.

Skip I see your point I honestly do and to some extent you are correct I’m confused but not totally blind.Have I let her go “obviously not” ,honestly I feel like I have BPD myself sometimes just because I pivot in and out of moods myself.Moods like fu$& it I’m done let’s move on and give some sound advice on here ,then sad where I think of her ,then happy like I’m getting over her , and the moments of weakness where we speak and see each other .Having known her for 5 +years and then dating her for 6 months is not easy for me to give up I guess.Right now I kinda leave her alone , ask how things are going with her life and simply stay away from trigger subjects .Sunday went well it kinda reminded me of the beginnings BUT in all fairness she is using the same tactics on me and I’m aware of them.Its hard to resist the kisses and touching isn’t say I’d not be human if I could resist her .But I walked away with no engagement as a couple .That evening she did tell me she loved me by saying , I love you baby , and she did say she missed me holding her and that she wanted to spend time with me now.I didn’t expect that to be honest , I was just hoping to go to lunch ,test myself around her (and failed) , and I though she would go back to kinda ignoring me or the occasional text.Then yesterday she emailed me at work saying have a great day and in the after noon asked me about the squeaky brakes on her car ( I’m good at mechanical stuff).So all in all yesterday’s texts were normal texts and felt good just to be back to normal friend talk .Sunday threw me off a bit but she was on a good emotional vibe having seen each other and it went well ,I’m ok with being the quiet guy and the occasional text guy.
I know my control on this situation doesn’t exist so I’m just gonna go with the flow and stuff because I don’t know what to do anyways .Lots of my friends keep saying : Shawn you are gonna have to make a decision either take her and try again or walk away? But I don’t feel that a decision needs to be made and technically not taking a decision is a decision in this case .Im not leading her on by saying hey let’s try again,or wanna do this again etc etc... .or texting her all the time ... .so I’d like to believe she isn’t gonna get hurt by me doing nothing? I’m super happy she isn’t in a full blown anxiety/depression mode anymore although her drinking is way out of hand .I stopped drinking awhile back and frankly don’t miss how it clouds my judgement and makes me feel compulsive and anxious the next day.I still love that little woman but I can’t play the yo-yo game with her either.I want to be friends but to my own comments on this board, being in love and being her friend is vastly unwise if not stupid .

[Skip]

honestly I feel like I have BPD myself sometimes just because I pivot in and out of moods myself.Moods like fu$& it I’m done let’s move on and give some sound advice on here ,then sad where I think of her ,then happy like I’m getting over her... .

Yes. Your moods are all over the place. Yes, its OK to be emotional and confused.

You have posts here that look like they were written by a different person. Did you ever hear of a Mr. Hyde drunk? Angry drunk?  We aren't a recovery site, but you've been here long enough to be family and we will stand by you.

Can you promise that you won't post when drinking? You are not going to beat this in a day or a week and we will walk with you, but the angry Shawnlam has lost many supporters. Let's build it back.

I was just hoping to go to lunch ,test myself around her (and failed) , and I though she would go back to kinda ignoring me or the occasional text.Then yesterday she emailed me at work saying have a great day and in the after noon asked me about the squeaky brakes on her car (I’m good at mechanical stuff). So all in all yesterday’s texts were normal texts and felt good just to be back to normal friend talk .

She's giving you another chance. You can step into it and make some positive changes that will serve you in this relationship (maybe) or the next relationship (maybe). You need to lose the angry aggressive Shawn.

Empathy is something to focus on right now. You need much better empathy skills. Empathy is the ability to see the other person side of an experience. You can't get along with a partner without good empathy skills. It's an essential skill.

I am the type of guy who won’t put up with her BS you are 100% correct nor will I change for her in anyway (that’s never gonna happen I’ll never be an empathic doormat) no man will tolerate her crap.The record breaking lying is gold class standard ,cheating,and the me me me attiude will never succeed in holding someone.

"Never gonna happen"  

If the staff didn't have empathy skills, you would be long gone from here. Rather than see you and the combative, and at times irrational and invalidating member, they have put themselves in your place to see how you feel. What drives you are feelings of profound loss (you had a rockstar relationship) and feelings of being turned down over and rejected over and over to the level of humiliation. And the drinking. It's not easy.

This is empathy. No one is agreeing that your bad side is OK. We just understand it enough to get where you are coming from.

and realized that the admin staff was just trying to get through my thick scull this whole time that people with BPD function entirely off emotions, something I couldn’t get through my head until it was too late. It all honesty if she came back to me I’d probably take her back that’s about 95%

So empathy with her would be to understand that despite the "Hyde" version who sees Marie as the one who "turns you down over and rejecs you over and over to the level of humiliation" , she is a person reacting to feelings of engulfment that have be inflamed further by you over pursuing and being aggressive and using "breaking up" as a bully tactic.

See how empathy works. See your side of it. She her side of it. See how these mental states clash.

Empathy would see her outreach to you as a positive reaction and appreciation of the more laid back Shawn. It's not a nefarious plot to turn you into a doormat. Its not a return to the first 120 days either or even a steady relationship.  It is a seed.

Empathy.

Relationships go through stages.

Stage #1 The infatuation stage.
Stage #2 The understanding stage.
Stage #3 The stage of disturbances.
Stage #4, 5, 6 ... .

Empathy would also be to understand that most relationship never make it past Stage 3. This is where one or both partners puls away and re-exert their independence and individuality that they had prior to the relationship. Your partner has an overburdened single mom, living with her mother, doesn't manage life projects well, has friends she likes to hang/party with, has emotional issues, is independent and on the "taker" end of the spectrum.

Your relationship can get better if you learn some skills, but it is not likely to go back where it was. You are past the honeymoon. That whirlwind romance was stage one. It's gone. You might see glimpses at times, but the stage 4 will be a different style. You can give it your best and them decide if it is good enough for you.

Without empathy, you are left to let your anger paint your reality. That anger see's your gf as a liar and a cheat and a manipulator and user. That same anger sees you as a loser begging from crumbs who wants to kick some ass (sometime the ass of good people here) out of frustration.

OK?

To be balanced in all of this,  I'm not saying this is a good relationship. Your drinking personality make be unfix-able - you said many times that you are 41 and set in your ways - and she isn't going to be very nice in that environment - she will not be kind to Mr. Hyde. You also say she drinks. That is not what you need right now - a drinking partner. And lastly, she is not in control of her life much - even with your best behavior, she still struggles with money and relationships and can be selfish and reacts to adversity by withdrawing. There are lots of things to absorb here.

There is a lot of discussion of empathy in this thread. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=324900

Please read it. It would be really helpful for you to open a thread and try to write a realistic narrative of your situation. Get members to help you keep it clean and balanced - leave the vampire and "all BPD suck mens brains out" stuff out.

At the bottom, clarify her vices. For example, write things like:
"she cheated on me  she cheated on a prior boyfriend but not me"
"She has a new boyfriend she is an independent type and needs her space"

Post it on your mirror.  As time goes on, edit it (with help here) and make it more accurate. Keep the old copies so you can see how it things are evolving.

This is an anchor you need in your life.

[gotbushels]

Hi Shawnlam   

I haven't got anything to add here and just wanted to support your discussion.

I did actually use something like this a lot and it seemed to help me get where I wanted to go,

Post it on your mirror.  As time goes on, edit it (with help here) and make it more accurate. Keep the old copies so you can see how it things are evolving.

This is an anchor you need in your life.

I haven't been involved in the discussion--so on a separate basis I want to share that this suggestion helped me get through some tricky things.   

Good luck!

[Shawnlam]

Thank you

[Cromwell]

Shawnlam

I remember not being in the mood for her touchy feely moments and it was a shock to see just how instantaneous the flip of character went to "oh ok, f you then!"

It was like being supporting actor unknowingly in a stage set, then for some reason I changed the script, and it was director saying "CUT!"

My ex told me over and over how highly she regarded and needed honesty in her life and that I gave that to her, she didnt need to read me like a book I made myself an open book, far beyond what should have ever been seen as normal in our r/s. Ive never tried so hard to accomodate someone or alleviate their fears to the point of it being self defeating and reckless.

All I can say at this point is your post has very much put me off the idea of meet up, I dont think theres anything to go for. I see the other sides of this debate and all valid points trying to see her perspective as much as yours. They say there are always two sides to the story and on this board the partner/ex whatever doesnt have the opportunity to present theirs. Yet, all I can see about my ex is in tandem to what you describe. She has burned every bridge possible in her life, im in some, crazy way myself, still meeting her half way on ours, as you are trying your best to  do as well. but im starting to really try and figure out what if any real purpose in all of it is, it just seems ultimately toxic.

You know what it is, its some sort of pity mixed with sympathy. I was hooked in, seduced in, heavily and told I was loved by her countless times. It is using love as a tool, it is the worst thing to play with but very effective. Maybe in the idolisation stage it was, as far as their notion of love can fully extend to, thats fair enough, but once the painting black occurred and the behaviour from it (cheating, derogatory comments plus a catalogue of other nastiness) it sabotages everything. Yet despite it all I feel pity for it, pity for her that she was so f stupid or ill or both I cant yet decide to throw away what she latently wanted to badly. 9 months apart and she hasnt found it elsewhere, will she ever? it was right in front of her, as you say with the scratch card analogy.

I dont like to be told to change personality, its like mining with a toothpick when I could take those qualities I have and give them to someone who "can" handle it.

I think in epicurian philosophy it goes "change the things you can, dont try to change the things you cannot"

Weve learned about this condition, probably way beyond the point that it should have registered "this person wont change without intensive therapy", yet there can only be explained some latent hope of that being untrue. For me it is having to accept defeat, a few years of my life that were as Struggler pointed out, a mixture of some of the best moments mixed with the worst, along those lines. Yet, statistically, I could have found that in another woman without the hassle of dealing with BPD.

All I know is that im still mining with that toothpick and as each day goes by, feeling more defeated, at the stage of questioning myself when I know that this r/s brought out the very worst in me, and even then, the majority of it I controlled and restrained in comparison to what I got.

I luckily didnt get that magnetism on the bus, which was strange to me because it was ultra-heavy on the 2nd recycle, almost more than the initial honeymoon period. I think the NC helped, 8 months of having to get myself in a better place. It wasnt thinking about her as much as it was recovery. I might meet her for lunch but you know what it will be - her picking the same thing as me on the menu - she never used to eat anything with any sauce until she met me - then mirroring whatever I say followed by sex for dessert - which - was very much one of the strongest hooks, she is still to me attractive and I think of the make up sex, but I cant help but think how contrived it all is, theres nothing left in this r/s that I feel can surprise me anymore, even if she would rage at me in the restaurant, been there before.

Maybe she will get her phone out and start showing me who sees been with, provoke a reaction, anything for attention. Yet what used to bother me I can just see for the sad, pathetic ness that it is.

When you say you feel like you have BPD yourself, I started to think that lately too, there is something that has been programmed in me that feels terrified to just say "kindly f off out my life", and what that would do to her, even at a subconscious level.

I actually like to sleep at night knowing I havent intentionally or unintentionally hurt someone. Yet as the girl that wanted to be with me at the time exclaimed "it makes me so angry you have strong feelings for someone who doesnt give a ___ about you".

Thats the part that needs worked on beyond all else.

[Skip]

I dont like to be told to change personality, its like mining with a toothpick when I could take those qualities I have and give them to someone who "can" handle it.

I think in epicurian philosophy it goes "change the things you can, dont try to change the things you cannot"

Epicurius? Are you thinking:

Give us courage to change what must be altered, serenity to accept what cannot be helped, and the insight to know the one from the other." ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

I think your question about change is a deeply important one. One Shawlam ponders, too.

Isn't the fundamental issue to, as Niebuhr says, change what must be altered?

I made changes. I did not make them to court the girl.  I made them because I learned in the process of courting the girl that I lacked skills that I needed... .for me, for my life (with or with the person who was in my life at the time).  

That person is long gone. I cherish the changes I made. They are part of my strength as a man, friend, partner, employer, son.

To change who we are for a 29 year old 5'4" 108 lb honey is a fools game.  To change what must be altered, is wisdom.

I think there is another quote that is fitting

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside childish ways.

[Cromwell]

Well done Skip, I hope to get to a similar goal.

I really find I somehow get a lot of reflection from your posts, you got me thinking about stuff that I had stuck away but forgotten.

For instance, I remember saying to her "you wont ever change me by the way", and she had a look of surprise, as it wasnt particulary in context of what we were discussing at the time. I did this quite a few times in the r/s, I realise these were the brief moments I was letting these subconscious thoughts out. I felt something very unnerving about how I felt that she wanted me to completely adapt to perfectly suit her needs, at no consideration whatsoever of mine, and I was, subtly, doing so, and I think that this is what affected and scared me the most.

Being with her meant having to almost become either one of two roles that just didnt fit

a) a surrogate parent who she would continually love/hate because she associated me with the love/pain she had with her own.

b) becoming a teenager who could join her in that level of maturity. Actually, I was relatively more maturer even at that age than she was.

Neither scenarios which I had to alternate between rested well with me and it is at its basis what once removed pointed out to me, an incompatability. I should have just dated her for 3 months, discarded at the cheating and moved on, but it was that heavy harpoon, not hook of the emotional love bombardment that kept things going.

I very much appreciate your solid advice to me over the past few days, Im feeling a lot more level headed, the confusion of what to do about her is lifting as with it the negative thinking cycle. Thanks SKip