He tried to lure me in again

[blooming]

So my ex messaged me again yesterday morning, asking how my weekend was. I answered politely and we talked a bit about our weekends. He said he had cut his hair off and that I probably found him ugly now (I liked his long hair a lot) and that that's easier for me. And he said he had only kept his hair long for me.

Then he asked me if I was free to go for a walk sometime, just to talk. Because he said that I was the person he could talk best with and he thought it could help him because he really isn't feeling well he said. I kind of tried to hold it off, saying that I wasn't sure that I was ready to see him again and that it would be too painful and that I wasn't sure that I could help him. So nothing was really planned.

Then I had to work (I work at an ice cream parlour) and it was really busy and none of my colleagues came to help me. So I was very tired after the shift ended and still needed to clean the whole shop and was a bit annoyed by that. He offered to come and help me. I said that wasn't necessary of course.

He asked me what I was doing tomorrow and I told him about my plans and he asked if I had a date and I said no and that I thought that was a silly question. But apparently he was wondering about that.

Then he started to talk again about how he could never sleep because of these incredibly itchy bumps that appear on his body for the last two months (started when we were still together). I then mentioned to him that I also had itchy bumps that were giving me trouble sleeping for the past two weeks (but they looked nothing like the bumps he had and my GP said that I couldn't have gotten it from him because there was too much time in between). He immediately asked to call me. Said he thought we have scabies. That was quite a shock. He was crying on the phone, saying how sorry he was that something like this had to happen again (I also got herpes from him, via a cold sore he had on his lips). It was so weird to hear his voice. And I was quite shocked actually. He said that I was the only one that he had been in contact with for longer than 15 minutes in the last months(that's the amount of time that's needed to get it from someone) so that he didn't know where he got it from. I don't believe him though, I know him better than that. He probably has a lot of explaining to do to some people he slept with these path months... .We talked a bit about some random stuff and than I said I needed to hang up because I wanted to go to sleep.

He messaged me directly after saying how sorry he was and that he hoped I soon wouldn't suffer from it anymore (the itching he meant). He also said that he wished he had done the last four months differently and wished me good night. I don't really know what he meant by that, but I think it was about us not working out.

I told him that I hoped his suffering would be over soon too (this is a free translation, maybe sounds a bit weird this way). And that it sucked that he said something like that only now (that was about  the four months comment). Maybe I should have asked what he meant by that, but I didn't. That's how the conversation ended.

Pfff such an emotional rollercoaster again. It was so weird talking to him like that again. I really don't know if he just wanted to meet up as friends or more than that. And I keep on forgetting all the bad things that happened. I really need to watch myself otherwise I'll fall for his trap again. Any advice?

[lighthouse9]

Hey Blooming,

Sounds like a confusing connection, and I definitely respect the desire to want to connect with him.

Maybe that's something worth interrogating, for yourself, and there's no right or wrong answers here: What do you desire in these connections with him?

Let's start there.

You've been clear about what you don't desire: falling for his trap again.

With that in mind, I'm going to ask two more questions: how aware do you think he is of his trap? Does his awareness or lack thereof matter?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey blooming, As lighthouse notes, it sounds confusing.  Rather than attempt to interpret what he might have meant, let me ask you a few questions:  What would you like to see happen?  What are your gut feelings about your ex?  Would you entertain a recycle?  Maybe the answers will help to clarify your thoughts.

LuckyJim

[Mutt]

Hi B’ooming,

Id like to echo the others think about what you want, i think that he’s being clingy and not completely respecting your space.

[blooming]

Hey Blooming,

Sounds like a confusing connection, and I definitely respect the desire to want to connect with him.

Maybe that's something worth interrogating, for yourself, and there's no right or wrong answers here: What do you desire in these connections with him?

I think I would like for us to stay in eachother's life, to be friends. I don't want him to think poorly of me. That's why I'm always nice and polite whenever he contacts me. I'm scared that if I tell him off that he'd get really angry and say very hurtful thinks. And I think that in the back of my mind I'm also thinking about that maybe, if and when he gets help and things start improving, we could get back together in the future. It's just out of the question for now.

Let's start there.

You've been clear about what you don't desire: falling for his trap again.

With that in mind, I'm going to ask two more questions: how aware do you think he is of his trap? Does his awareness or lack thereof matter?

That's a really good question and one I've been wondering about myself a lot these days. Do you think that BPD's in general are aware of the trap they're setting? To me it definitely matters, because if he's doing this all on purpose (using me, trying to lure me in only to discard me again), that would be very painful. Yesterday we had a conversation about what he meant by that "I would have liked to have done it differently" and he said that he meant that he wished he wouldn't have felt so down and that he would've put more effort in it and put less strain on me. That he regretted it all. That he just couldn't find it fun back then.

Then he started talking about that we both need someone to put ointment (against the scabies) on our backs and that we could help eachother with that and that it didn't matter because we couldn't have sex afterwards anyway and that he wouldn't be able to find anyone else to do that. I said that wouldn't be a good idea and that I'm sure he'd find someone else and that I'm not the person to help him with that and that I hoped he'd understand that.

[Lucky Jim]

I said that wouldn't be a good idea and that I'm sure he'd find someone else and that I'm not the person to help him with that and that I hoped he'd understand that.

Good for you, blooming.  You didn't allow yourself to get drawn in.  Well done.   

LJ

[spero]

Hi there blooming,

How have you been after posting this thread a few days back? I'd like to join in Mutt, Lucky Jim and lighthouse9 in chiming in a little
I do hope that you've settled down abit, and that you're perhaps feeling more certain and at ease.

If i may, and since you seem to be giving thought about yourself these days, i would perhaps like to suggest three questions from this post of yours.

I think I would like for us to stay in eachother's life, to be friends. I don't want him to think poorly of me.

I understand that you'd like to stay friends, and if that is the case, would mean that you would continue to interact and maintain a certain level of communication.
That being said, i am curious as to why you are worried if he would think poorly of you. Have you given some thought as to why his perception of you is important?

That's why I'm always nice and polite whenever he contacts me. I'm scared that if I tell him off that he'd get really angry and say very hurtful thinks.

Have you every wondered why you're afraid of being getting angry at you? To the point where you have to be polite toward him and perhaps even to the extent of being extra careful and senstivie to say the right words to him? - ie "walking on eggshells"? Do you feel that in doing so, and perhaps even forcing yourself to "be nice" creates for itself your own internal conflict of unable to be who you really are?

Do you think that BPD's in general are aware of the trap they're setting? To me it definitely matters, because if he's doing this all on purpose (using me, trying to lure me in only to discard me again), that would be very painful.

Blooming, while i'd like to answer the above, the harder question to ask would be, that the outcome would still be the same. Meaning while he may not for all intents and purposes scheme and consciously will his actions, on the receiving end, you would still feel that you're being used, lured in, and discarded again. If the outcome changes, would you still then be able to tolerate being repeated treated like this? I'm really sorry to ask this question. I had to ask this question to myself many times over.

I'll pause here, and you don't have to answer my questions. Do take as much time as you need to ponder the above. I know its a difficult place for you to be in, but hang in there okay? Sending you a warm hug. Takecare.

Yours,
Spero

[blooming]

It took me some time to be able to write this thread, and to be honest I still feel so confused. It would be so much easier if I could just copy and paste the conversation we had on here, to hear what you have to say about it, but unfortunately it wasn't in English. I'll try my best to summarize and describe it.

When he said that he wished he could have done the last 4 months differently, I asked him what he meant by that. He said that he wished he would have felt better in those months. That he could have tried harder and could have burdened me less. That he just hated how everything had went. That this feeling was probably worsened because of how ___ he is currently feeling (because of his lack of sleep etc), but that he noticed that it was on his mind a lot. That he couldn't make himself to find it fun then.

Then he started to talk about how we'd both need someone to put ointment on eachother's back (for the scabies he gave me) and when I said that I thought it wasn't a good idea to do that, he said that it didn't matter because we couldn't have sex afterwards anyway. I said that I was sure he'd find someone to help him with that but that I wasn't the right person to do it and that I hoped he understood. He didn't like it.

The day afterwards (the conversation wasn't ended the night before) we first talked about when we both had our doctor's appointment. And how I hoped that his misery would be over now that he finally knew what was causing his itching and his sleepless nights and that it was a bit vague where he had got it from. He says that he didn't sleep with anyone else but me in the past 5 months (I do not believe him though) and that he maybe got it from sleeping in the bed of a roommate of a friend of his when he was staying over in his city.

Then he asked me how I was feeling. I said that this whole situation had shocked me a little bit, but that apart from that I was doing better every day, but that I had had a difficult time again (after we broke up). He said that he was sorry and that he would leave me alone again after this was all over, because he understood that I was done now. I said that it had just been all very painful, that the way he had treated me didn't really make me more confident. But that he didn't have to say sorry because it wasn't his fault that he had had those doubts. He said that he couldn't see how he had made me insecure about the way I looked (that wasn't what I meant at all though), because he had always loved my body. And that it just didn't work because he wasn't feeling well and couldn't combine it with his studies. I said that I was more than my body, but that I understood and that I didn't blame him. He said "yes, a lot more, I know that" and said again how he hated how things had went and that he still thought a lot about our summer holidays. I said that it had felt very ___ty to not be good enough. He said that that wasn't the case at all and called me by a petname. Said that studying and everything that went with it just took too much time and asked too much of him. I said I hoped that he would find more peace in his studying in the future, because he was very good at at it and the stress was unnecesarry. He said that he hoped that I would see how wonderful I was. But not too much. Because then he would get jealous because I would start dating a lot.

I said I would leave the dating too him and he said that he hadn't dated at all the past months, that he hadn't been capable of that, that he had been so tired that he 'couldn't get it up'. He also talked about the dresses I always wore and the cleavage they had and how much he liked that. That he hadn't seen female beauty in so long. I said "tough life" and he asked "You don't have a tough life then?" and I said no because I saw a female body every day. He then said "but don't you have other needs?" and then he started to talk about how good we had become at sex and how he had loved how in the end we were so in sync and how intense that had been and bla bla bla.

That's when I had to go the GP for getting my treatment, so we started talking about that again and that wasn't going to tell everyone and I thought that I should because otherwise it wouldn't be fair to my housemates etc. He asked again if I really didn't want to rub the ointmet in his back and I said that I really didn't think that would be a good idea. He was being very sad about that he didn't know who to ask otherwise and almost convinced me to come around and rub his back and then leave straight after (and that he wouldn't do my back, because I would just ask my mother). But then he said that he would find it too frustrating, that apart from the fact that he wanted to see me, he would just be too easily aroused now, after two months. I don't really understand why he changed his mind all of a sudden, but oh well.

Then he said that he felt sorry that we couldn't do anything because he was only thinking of me. I said that that just wouldn't be smart. That it didn't work between us anymore and that I wouldn't want anything like friends with benefits because that would just suck after all we he have had together. He agreed that that would suck, because it just isn't like that between us. But that he would give a lot for drinking a bottle of wine together, showering together and having a cuddle session in bed. I said that I would only find that difficult because it would bring up too many feelings and couldn't see it as something alone standing. He said that he of course would also find it difficult, but that he wanted it a lot more than that he didn't want it.But that I was more protective of myself.

I said that I did hope we could talk to eachother now and then and maybe go to a concert together or something. He said that he hoped that too. That we were a very good match after all. But that found it a pity that we couldn't enjoy eachother for one more night. That he thought we could both use it. I kept declining though, saying that we needed to let go of eachother and that something like this wouldn't help with that. He thought that that wouldn't be lost all of a sudden (the letting go of eachother). The he said, sorry I shouldn't want to convince you. You don't want it so we won't do it. But then he said again that he hated that we couldn't meet eachother like that again. I said that I hated it too but that it just didn't work anymore. He said you're right, it doesn't work now (with the emphasis on now). But that that didn't mean we couldn't still drink a bottle of wine together and go to a concert and that I would leave with him afterwards. I said we couldn't wait on when it would work again and he agreed.

I then asked him if he was thinking about talking to a professional about the way he had been feeling this past half year. He said no. That he was used to always going on this way. That he always does it like this. I said that if he wanted to go on that walk to talk about how he was feeling than that would be okay for me, but he ignored that, kind of weird. Didn't take up on my offer.

Later that night I sent him some info about the hygiene precautions we need to take when treating scabies, because it was something I hadn't thought about. He was very rude then. Only replying with one word all the time. I asked him if I had done something wrong. He said that he was just feeling grumpy and that there was no use in messaging him. I wished him good night and he said that he hoped he would have a good night in a week time.

That was the end of our conversation. Yesterday he didn't message me anymore and I don't expect him to do today either. A bit rude because you would think that he would ask how I was doing after I had done the treatment and since he was the one who gave me this sucky infection. Maybe he doesn't want to put energy in me anymore now that he knows that I won't get in his bed with him again.

It was all just so confusing and hard. The past half year we've had conversations like this before. Where he said that it didn't work but would love to undress me one more time etc. He always came around and wanted to "really" try again, when he realised that he wouldn't get me in his bed so easily. I think the difference now though is that I'm a lot stronger in my positon that I don't want to try again. So I don't think that will happen again.
 
Don't know how this will develop further though. I hate how strong his pull on me still is.

[Mutt]

You don’t have to worry about getting into a romantic r/s with him again with boundaries. I think that you held up pretty good you know what you want and you know what you don’t want. I hear confusion on his part and I think that it’s a good idea to keep things as they are now between you two.

Have you thought about putting more boundaries on yourself and only talking about scabies and not sharing anything else personal about you or your history together?

[Cromwell]

Hi Blooming

I remember back in the old days you said to me if he would really come back, and here we are :D

"sorry" can be heartfelt, although it would depend on that person being able to fully understand the hurt you went through and their part to play in it. Has he ever admitted to the cheating?

it can just as much be empty words to hook you in to whatever he needs right now, by the sounds of it, sexual and/or self esteem boosting needs.

Think about how you would feel to give in too easily and then find him betraying you once more.

Im not saying to avoid him, just make sure you protect yourself emotionally first as best as possible, however tempting it might be to rather think he is truly remorseful and rehabilitated for the better, against your intuition - like I had went against mine in the hope of continuing the previous happy aspects of the r/s I had before the cheating started.

The more difficult you make this for him - the more interesting you become as a challenge to be conquered. It is more to do with satisfying his self esteem needs as much as his - apparent - lack of sexual fulfillment as this moment in time. A combination really.

The last thing you said though "how strong his pull is on me", I was wondering what you meant by this exactly? For me I experienced the same but couldnt at the time didnt even think about it to figure out what exactly was it I was so drawn to someone who had hurt me so badly. Just interested more on what it is about him that makes you feel this way. Is it just infactuation, his charisma, sympathy for his problems, a mix of these plus more? It sounds in your post a big difference in how you feel about him since him coming back to you and apparently trying so hard to regain your trust and favor, compared to when you felt hurt that he just ignored you went elsewhere and never expected to hear from him again.

[Cromwell]

Hi Blooming

You say that you might like to keep in contact with him as "friends".

The thing is, with these trust issues, would you actually regard him as a friend?

I tried to see how things would go, initiating contact again with the hope that something might have changed for the better and that she could be in my life in some way.

It didnt take long to start remembering that I dont trust her at all anymore, for very good reasons. A long break apart helped to become more emotionally detached to the point where I could look at the new behaviour and start actually listening to my intuition about how I felt, not what I could prove or disprove.

You feel that he is possibly scheming and luring you in, is it not concerning enough by itself that your intuition is warning you about him like this? You can either ignore it or go along with it.

Be careful that it might be more than "forgetting" what he has done as it could be intentionally blocking it out because it was hurtful and unresolved. I did this and it was just storing up something that never goes away.

Think about using this opportunity to try and really confront him with what he has done that hurt you, surely a real friend would not respond with anger if you do it in a non-combative accusatory way but would want to understand how you feel and give you some sort of answer as best they could so you could find closure and then take things from there.

[Harley Quinn]

I said that if he wanted to go on that walk to talk about how he was feeling than that would be okay for me, but he ignored that, kind of weird. Didn't take up on my offer.

Maybe he doesn't want to put energy in me anymore now that he knows that I won't get in his bed with him again.

Blooming, I want to start by congratulating you on holding strong to your boundaries about a 'one off' sexual encounter.  That had to be tough to resist, yet you were thinking clearly about the emotional consequences for you, which is really smart.  It does sound that he had a need he wanted met and when you declined repeatedly after he made several attempts to sway you, he became clear that he wasn't going to have success.  How are you feeling now?

Love and light x

[blooming]

Yesterday he messaged me again and again it was such a rollercoaster. I feel a bit too lost in my own thoughts to write it all down, but he started by asking if he thought the treatment had worked. We talked a bit about that he was going to treat himself tonight. He was very curt. I think he really blamed me for not wanting to help him with his treatment (rubbing it in his back). I tried to help him with coming up with other people he could ask to do it for him, but he didn't want to tell anyone else. I said I felt guilty that I couldn't help him, but that I thought it really wouldn't be a good idea. He said he understood, but that he found it a pity. And he said he knew I was like that, but that that only made him like me more and made him want it even more. He then cut off the conversation quite abruptly, saying that if I magically changed my mind I could contact him. I wished him a good day.

An hour later he messaged me saying that he was sorry but that he just hated that there was zero chance of me helping him that night. That he tried to understand me, but that he didn't understand why I didn't want it. That he wouldn't mind it if 'more' than just the rubbing happened and he didn't understand why I minded. And that he didn't understand that I didn't want to help him when he was feeling so bad (really playing into my guilt feelings). I said I didn't want to cross my boundaries. That I did mind if more happened. That I was sorry that he felt so bad, but that I didn't think one night with me would change that. Then he said suddenly again that he just wanted to talk. He said sorry for thinking so selfishly. He just didn't understand how I was so difficult. I said that I was fine talking to him, but not late at night in his bedroom. That it wouldn't be good for me, because it would bring up too many feelings. He said he tried to see that, that he shouldn't expect me to be there for him all of a sudden. I said I was sorry and that I wanted to help him, but not in the way he wanted me to. He said that he wouldn't just use me for sex (sigh).

I said I didn't understand what he wanted. He said that he was feeling ___ty and he wanted to be around me. I said that me being around wouldn't fix how he was feeling, just like it hadn't in the past. He said it was different then, that he couldn't focus on the relationship. That that didn't mean he didn't miss me and wanted to be around me. I said that he was just as busy as then and that we would struggle with the same things. He agreed, but said that that didn't change the fact that he just wanted to be around me for a while now. And that he didn't mean sex by that. But that he didn't understand why I was talking with him when I didn't want to do anything for him.

I said that I had told him multiple times that I wanted to go for a walk or have coffee with him (and he keeps ignoring that offer, so contradictory. He says he doesn't just want sex and also wants to talk, but when I offer to talk with him, he doesn't take the offer.). And that it hurts to hear that he just wants me for 'a while'. He said that was the only thing that was possible now, that it wasn't realistic to start seeing eachother a lot. He said that he would prefer to fall asleep next to me every night. I said that I thought it would just be us playing the same chess game again and that I didn't want to feel that pain again. He said I was right, but that didn't mean we couldn't see eachother for 'a while' (he didn't use the quotation marks btw).

He then said, so when will you come round to rub my back tonight? And I said that I didn't like it that he came back to that all the time. He said that he would have liked it if I could have been there for him. That that was a promise we made to eachother (don't remember, but he was really guilt tripping me). That there hadn't been a moment when he needed me more than now. I said I was working. He said that I never had had time for him. I said it hurt me to hear him talk like that. That I understood his frustrations, but that it didn't feel right for me and that I was sorry. He said he just missed me. I said I missed him too.

I thought about it long and hard and decided that I could help him anyway (the guilt tripping worked). Because I couldn't really touch him anyway because of risk of re-infection, so nothing could have happened. So I messaged him that a few hours later. But then he said that he had already done it and re-initiated the conversation with asking random questions about my day. Then he started saying that he hated that this had happened to me and that it was so vague where he got it from. That he didn't understand why I still talked to him, also after what I heard about the cheating rumors. We talked a bit about that. He still denied everything (I know he did it, so it hurt a lot hearing him lie again). Then some smalltalk again. Then he said that it was actually a good sign that we were being so reluctant about seeing eachother (well he wasn't reluctant all, he was very clear that he wanted it, so it didn't make sense that he said this). That it meant that we were special for eachother. That he could talk to me so well and that we had the same interests etc.

He then said "and we were also very good at being intimate" and initatied a sexual conversation again. I don't know why I gave in. I had had something to drink. I was tired. I don't know. But I went along with his 'sexting'. We even sent eachother very private pictures. He then wished me good night with kisses and saying dearest etc. Today he hasn't said anything yet.

I hate myself for going along with him in that last part of the conversation. I shouldn't have done it. Now I gave off the wrong message. I gave into him. I shouldn't have done that.

He just confuses me so much. I don't understand what he wants. He is being so contradictory.

I don't know how to solve this.

It's all so very tiring.

[Lucky Jim]

I hate myself for going along with him in that last part of the conversation. I shouldn't have done it. Now I gave off the wrong message. I gave into him. I shouldn't have done that.

Hey blooming, Don't beat yourself up!  We all slip up from time to time.  Instead of judging yourself harshly, maybe you could take a deep breath and be compassionate with yourself and make a plan on how to handle it better next time.  As we all know, there is likely to be a next time.

LJ

[blooming]

Hi Blooming

I remember back in the old days you said to me if he would really come back, and here we are :D

"sorry" can be heartfelt, although it would depend on that person being able to fully understand the hurt you went through and their part to play in it. Has he ever admitted to the cheating?

No, he hasn't. In fact he denied it again yesterday. Although in the conversation we had about it I think he was being quite vague, he wasn't lying very well.

it can just as much be empty words to hook you in to whatever he needs right now, by the sounds of it, sexual and/or self esteem boosting needs.

Think about how you would feel to give in too easily and then find him betraying you once more.

Yes that would make me feel awful. And he has pretty much admitted in the conversation we had yesterday that he doesn't want anything serious. So I know I should definitely not give in. He just wants to use me as his puppet to make him feel better for a little while.

Im not saying to avoid him, just make sure you protect yourself emotionally first as best as possible, however tempting it might be to rather think he is truly remorseful and rehabilitated for the better, against your intuition - like I had went against mine in the hope of continuing the previous happy aspects of the r/s I had before the cheating started.

The more difficult you make this for him - the more interesting you become as a challenge to be conquered. It is more to do with satisfying his self esteem needs as much as his - apparent - lack of sexual fulfillment as this moment in time. A combination really.

The last thing you said though "how strong his pull is on me", I was wondering what you meant by this exactly? For me I experienced the same but couldnt at the time didnt even think about it to figure out what exactly was it I was so drawn to someone who had hurt me so badly. Just interested more on what it is about him that makes you feel this way. Is it just infactuation, his charisma, sympathy for his problems, a mix of these plus more? It sounds in your post a big difference in how you feel about him since him coming back to you and apparently trying so hard to regain your trust and favor, compared to when you felt hurt that he just ignored you went elsewhere and never expected to hear from him again.

That's a good question. I don't think I can really pinpoint it either. I think it's partly because he is my first boyfriend and is the first person who ever made me feel a little good about myself. Also we were very good friends (same interests etc) so I miss him for that too. I think he is extremely addicting. You want him to want you. I have talked about this with his other exes. They all experienced the same. You let him get away with way too much only because you want him in your life so badly . You want him to tell you sweet things, you want him to hold you and give you attention. It makes you feel good. Also sympathy for his problems, yes. I wish I could help him with those and make him realise that he needs professional help.

You are right, I do feel different. It's just scary how easily you forget all the bad things as soon as he contacts you. All I think about when I am in a conversation with him is how to keep up the conversation and how to make him like me and say the right things. It's very hard now though, because I have established my own boundaries which he defnitely doesn't agree with. It's a very interesting situation. Very much like an addiction I think.

[blooming]

Hey blooming, Don't beat yourself up!  We all slip up from time to time.  Instead of judging yourself harshly, maybe you could take a deep breath and be compassionate with yourself and make a plan on how to handle it better next time.  As we all know, there is likely to be a next time.

LJ

Hi Jim! Thank you for saying that. It's just so hard when he keeps pulling and pulling and such a big part of me wants him as well. It's so hard to resist and stay strong. Do you have advice on how to make the plan?

[spero]

Hi there blooming,

How are you doing today?

I noticed that this thread has been merged and i'm wondering if you've managed to give some thought to an earlier response i made.

Please find it on the first page of this thread.

Yours,
Spero.

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, blooming,  I suggest pausing when he is "pulling" on you.  Take a timeout if necessary and say you'll get back to him.  The goal, I submit, is to figure out what is right for you and then stick to it with boundaries as needed.  It's not about doing what is right for him, OK?  No, this is about what is right for you.  If you take the time to get quiet and sit with your feelings, I think the right path for you is likely to pop into your head, at which point you will have your plan.  Let me know if this works for you!

LJ

[Harley Quinn]

It's just so hard when he keeps pulling and pulling and such a big part of me wants him as well. It's so hard to resist and stay strong. Do you have advice on how to make the plan?

It sounds like he wore you down to the point that you were willing to go against your better judgement, by repeatedly persisting in provoking feelings of guilt.  He knows what reaches you and kept at it until you relented. 

My suggestion would be to take a break if necessary from the conversation as LJ has suggested, and to not enter into discussing it over and over.  Once you've declined to break your boundary, the next time he pushes, politely say you've given him your answer on that and don't want to discuss it further.  Stay strong Blooming - you're doing great!

Love and light x 

[Cromwell]

The reason you forget about the bad things during the conversations is because if he is anything like my ex, they take the lead in the conversations and make sure to avoid discussing stuff like that which has happened. This suited me because I didnt want to confront, I thought I could somehow forget and move on. Fine for awhile, except it is just brushed under the carpet and whats more, then the next disaster hits, and that needs swept away too.

Who wants to be in a relationship where they feel there are unresolved issues that they want to bring to the table to discuss, but at the same time, realise that there is no point in it (because he will avoid and side step it) and you dont want to create a sour mood.

The addicting aspect of it is a belief that he holds the power to take away that pain he has created in the first place, which he does - via a face to face apology. The only way to break free from that is find an alternative way to heal, because from where we are at this point, it doesnt look like youll ever get one. I didnt, thats not to say that she didnt do her best to "make up" for what she did, yet it still didnt heal, it was more the way I see it, just behaviour intended to keep me hooked in because she expected me to walk away. Does that scenario feel anyway familiar?

[blooming]

Hi there blooming,

How have you been after posting this thread a few days back? I'd like to join in Mutt, Lucky Jim and lighthouse9 in chiming in a little
I do hope that you've settled down abit, and that you're perhaps feeling more certain and at ease.

If i may, and since you seem to be giving thought about yourself these days, i would perhaps like to suggest three questions from this post of yours.

I'm really sorry for not replying sooner spero! My head has just been so full lately and I find it very hard to find the time and peace to write long responses on here.

I understand that you'd like to stay friends, and if that is the case, would mean that you would continue to interact and maintain a certain level of communication.
That being said, i am curious as to why you are worried if he would think poorly of you. Have you given some thought as to why his perception of you is important?

I think that isn't necessary something that's only something I want him to think. It's something I struggle with in general. I don't want anyone to think poorly of me. I want everyone to like me. So sometimes that means putting myself down a bit if it makes other people happy. And with him this need for him to think well of me is of course larger than with general people, because he means so much to me and knows me so well. If he doesn't like me, than he must have a good reason since he knows me through and through, so he must be right. And it's also that I don't want him to dislike me because it would mean that he would probably start saying very hurtful things to me and saying I'm a bad person etc. I struggle enough with my self esteem as it is, comments like that really break me down. They have in the past when he said such things.

Have you every wondered why you're afraid of being getting angry at you? To the point where you have to be polite toward him and perhaps even to the extent of being extra careful and senstivie to say the right words to him? - ie "walking on eggshells"? Do you feel that in doing so, and perhaps even forcing yourself to "be nice" creates for itself your own internal conflict of unable to be who you really are?

I know how much his words have scarred me already and I don't want any more of that. He has no idea of the effec his words have had on me. And anyone getting angry at me is a big fear of me. I've literally never fought with anyone in my life, I'm a huge pacifist. Fights and anger scare me. I think the fact that I never got angry back at him is part of the reason we lasted as long (in succession, usually the first break up in his relationships is a lot earlier). And I'm not sure if it really creates an internal conflict, because it's something I'm used to doing. But it's hard when he says hurtful things about me or the people I love or the things I like to do and I can't really do anything about it.

Blooming, while i'd like to answer the above, the harder question to ask would be, that the outcome would still be the same. Meaning while he may not for all intents and purposes scheme and consciously will his actions, on the receiving end, you would still feel that you're being used, lured in, and discarded again. If the outcome changes, would you still then be able to tolerate being repeated treated like this? I'm really sorry to ask this question. I had to ask this question to myself many times over.

It's a good question to ask. And of course you're right. It does matter to me to know if he's purposefully luring me in and making me confused and saying all this words, just to find out if he still has that power over me, only to discard me again straight after. Or that he's really feelling this way and is just confused. But in the end the outcome will be the same. I know what will happen if I give in to him again. It will probably be fun for a while, but he will get bored of me very quickly again and I will be left out in the cold. As much as he tells me that he regrets what has happened and that he misses me and needs me, that will all change as soon as he has me again. It's so hard for me to see that he can be so selfish. I have told him so many times where my boundaries lie, and still he tries time and time again to break through them and to get me to sleep with him. It almost seems like a game to him. Now that I gave in to him a little yesterday evening, he suddenly doesn't message me anymore. And he's being so contradictory in his messages. Saying that it's not just about the sex for him and he just wants to see me, but also not being interested in just drinking coffee/talking with me. Saying that he wants to fall asleep next to me every night, but also saying that he just wants me for now. It hurts. I don't know what to say to him to get through to him.

I'll pause here, and you don't have to answer my questions. Do take as much time as you need to ponder the above. I know its a difficult place for you to be in, but hang in there okay? Sending you a warm hug. Takecare.

Yours,
Spero

[blooming]

It sounds like he wore you down to the point that you were willing to go against your better judgement, by repeatedly persisting in provoking feelings of guilt.  He knows what reaches you and kept at it until you relented. 

Yes I think you're right. He didn't message me at all today. Do you think that's because he got what he wanted, that he won? That he now feels great again because he still has that power over me and that now he doesn't need me anymore like he told me he did yesterday. I just don't know which of his words to believe. If he really wanted to try again he would have wanted to drink coffee with me. I really think he just wanted a night of cuddles because he's feeling lonely.

My suggestion would be to take a break if necessary from the conversation as LJ has suggested, and to not enter into discussing it over and over.  Once you've declined to break your boundary, the next time he pushes, politely say you've given him your answer on that and don't want to discuss it further.  Stay strong Blooming - you're doing great!

Love and light x 

Thank you for the encouragement HQ! I'm really trying. Just hard to keep resisting. Because of course a part of me wants him too. I'll try to do what you suggested.

[blooming]

The reason you forget about the bad things during the conversations is because if he is anything like my ex, they take the lead in the conversations and make sure to avoid discussing stuff like that which has happened. This suited me because I didnt want to confront, I thought I could somehow forget and move on. Fine for awhile, except it is just brushed under the carpet and whats more, then the next disaster hits, and that needs swept away too.

Hmm interestingly enough yesterday this wasn't the case at all. He said something like "I don't understand  that you still want to talk to me. After this and after all the ___ty things you have heard about me." and I asked what he meant by that and he meant that I had found out about him cheating. He then said that he didn't do it again (he lied), but he didn't lie very well, so I could almost read between the lines that he did do it, it was very strange.

But in general, yes I think this is very true.

Who wants to be in a relationship where they feel there are unresolved issues that they want to bring to the table to discuss, but at the same time, realise that there is no point in it (because he will avoid and side step it) and you dont want to create a sour mood.

Very good question. It's hard that this is my first relationship so I don't have anything to compare it with, but if you put it like that it's not a very nice situation to be in.

The addicting aspect of it is a belief that he holds the power to take away that pain he has created in the first place, which he does - via a face to face apology. The only way to break free from that is find an alternative way to heal, because from where we are at this point, it doesnt look like youll ever get one. I didnt, thats not to say that she didnt do her best to "make up" for what she did, yet it still didnt heal, it was more the way I see it, just behaviour intended to keep me hooked in because she expected me to walk away. Does that scenario feel anyway familiar?

Well that part about behaviour intended to keep me hooked very much feels familiar. Also the fact that he said yesterday that he was scared that I was already wiht someone else says enough. He doesn't want me to move on. He wants me to stay in his power. That's maybe why he said all the things he did. It's just so hard to believe that he was being dishonest and that wasn't the way he is feeling. It feels very disrespectful.

[Cromwell]

If you can make the best out of this situation and not let yourself get hurt further by him, i do believe in some ways you will have gained by the experience and it will help you enjoy future ones, even appreciate them not to have to go through this dishonesty and disrespect.

 blooming. there goes my phone. 2 texts. 7 days later.

Ears are burning. Normally the world would stop and id even cancel this message and start to talk to her - such was the "magnetism". Yet, getting over this person meant building up my own self worth, something which I see in your posts, each of them very strong in comparison to what I was. As youve been advised already, and its advice I take, try to exercise more control and not react too quickly in the heat of the moment. A bit like if you want to buy a house, sleep on the decision and decide how you feel the next day, I think thats very important here, enjoy the conversations if they make you happy, but dont feel pressurised by him if your intuiton tells you that something doesnt feel right.

That magnetism was in a big way an infactuation but I could have easily untangled from that alone, it was more complex, I got a lot of emotional hooks and from what i read in your posts your getting some fired at you but you are more alert about them and I think this is where he is showing signs of frustration and trying harder. I really believe if you give him what he wants he will get a big ego boost that he managed to get what he wanted, even better knowing that you had suspected him of cheating but continued regardless. Just think to yourself if that does turn out to be the case, how you might feel about yourself, id expect a lot more hurt in addition to what already has happened. What has happened so far has had nothing that couldnt have happened to anyone, yet still a door to walk out of and keep self esteem. It hurt me far more to continue on with it, I wish I would have taken that opportunity when I had the chance. Especially when ive finally got over things now - and it has taken a long painful path to get there - that all of a sudden i see her "dopplegangers" running around, who have this "magnetism", yet I suspect dont have all the craziness to go with it. Thats what I should have been spending my time interested in, not someone I gave a chance to and then gave them more chances to betray again.

Theres a big world out there and the more you get deeper into this one, emotionally, just think that out there is someone who wants to be with you, you will be infactuated by as well, minus all these mind games and put downs.

He knows this, which explains to me his aggressive outburst seeing you on the dating app.

[Harley Quinn]

Blooming, what an experience you've had for a first relationship.  I'm sorry to hear that this has been your only opportunity yet to see what a r/s can be like.  At any point have you given thought to what an 'ideal' relationship would look like for you?  What would you say is important to you in a relationship?  This is important stuff to consider, as it helps you to understand what your values are, and I'm sure you'll find will reinforce those boundaries that you're holding onto so valiantly. 

Losing a first love is so hard, without the added complications of BPD.  I'm hearing in your most recent posts a lot of insight into his behaviour and his motivation.  There is strength gathering within you and this is good to see.  You have a future ahead of you, that you can shape to be one of your liking.  Put some thought into what you'd want that to be and focus on that.

This might give you some inspiration: Characteristics of Healthy Relationships

Love and light x

 

[blooming]

He messaged me late last night saying that his exam went will and that he was on his way to his friends for a weekend away and he wished me a good weekend. I replied this morning saying that I was glad his exam went well and that I had finally slept an entire night (so the scabies medicine must be working) and that I wished him a good weekend too. I also said that it might be a good idea to get a coffee sometime this week, because so much has happened and has been said the past few days. And he replied something like "yes sure, we could do that!". It's so weird that he's now suddenly being so passive again. Maybe it is because he got what he wanted (he got me to go along in his stupid sexual texting game) and now he thinks he's got me in the bag again and that I'm his puppet again or something. I'm not even sure if it's a good idea to have coffee, but I thought it might be good to talk about this and what has happened in real life and to make clear to him that I really don't want what he wants. But my standpoint is probably not as strong anymore because of what I did Thursday night. I'm so angry at myself for doing that. All my friends think I've been so stupid. They don't understand why I won't just block him.

Should I send him (not today, because the converstion is over now and I'm kind of happy about that) something like this?

I've been thinking and I don't think getting coffee is smart after all. What I did on Thursday wasn't wise. I still think that it's not good for me to see eachother for 'a while' (talking is fine, but you know what I mean) and we both know it won't work between us anymore. Everything we try is destined to fail. I don't want that pain and that grief and that feeling of insecurity anymore. I want to leave those days and how I felt then behind. I hope that in the future we can talk to eachother again and meet up sometime, but I think for now there's still too much tension and I need more distance and time. I'm sorry.

[Harley Quinn]

Asking for time and space seems like a sensible thing to do.  The only question I have is, do you think you'll really be getting the time and space you need if you invite further conversation? 

So far he seems to be confusing you and my slant on that is that sometimes we can imagine that we are speaking to an emotionally stable individual whose views are not distorted frequently by shifting moods.  So we expect and imagine that we will have the sort of responses that we would get with others who aren't mentally ill.  We can dwell on what is said and try to make sense of it based on our understanding of what a normal and emotionally healthy person might mean or intend. 

There came a point for me where I no longer felt affected by the positive or the negative things that my ex said or did, because it fluctuated so much and all sort of became a blur of pointless details that were no longer relevant.  Your ex lives in the moment.  His reactions are based on how he feels there and then, and this changes.  So he tries one approach, it doesn't work, then he tries another.  That doesn't work and he may get mad.  Or he changes tact and gets apologetic.  This is all with a view to having a need fulfilled. 

Perhaps it's time to put your needs ahead of his.  Requesting that he not contact you may feel scary, but it would give you perspective and does not need to be a forever thing.  How about you state that you could use a month without hearing from him so that you can focus on detaching and healing?

Love and light x     

[Cromwell]

He messaged me late last night saying that his exam went will and that he was on his way to his friends for a weekend away and he wished me a good weekend. I replied this morning saying that I was glad his exam went well and that I had finally slept an entire night (so the scabies medicine must be working) and that I wished him a good weekend too. I also said that it might be a good idea to get a coffee sometime this week, because so much has happened and has been said the past few days. And he replied something like "yes sure, we could do that!". It's so weird that he's now suddenly being so passive again. Maybe it is because he got what he wanted (he got me to go along in his stupid sexual texting game) and now he thinks he's got me in the bag again and that I'm his puppet again or something. I'm not even sure if it's a good idea to have coffee, but I thought it might be good to talk about this and what has happened in real life and to make clear to him that I really don't want what he wants. But my standpoint is probably not as strong anymore because of what I did Thursday night. I'm so angry at myself for doing that. All my friends think I've been so stupid. They don't understand why I won't just block him.

Should I send him (not today, because the converstion is over now and I'm kind of happy about that) something like this?

I've been thinking and I don't think getting coffee is smart after all. What I did on Thursday wasn't wise. I still think that it's not good for me to see eachother for 'a while' (talking is fine, but you know what I mean) and we both know it won't work between us anymore. Everything we try is destined to fail. I don't want that pain and that grief and that feeling of insecurity anymore. I want to leave those days and how I felt then behind. I hope that in the future we can talk to eachother again and meet up sometime, but I think for now there's still too much tension and I need more distance and time. I'm sorry.

Just dont turn up blooming, let him stand there.

when he phones say "what? you told me it was tomorrow!"

then however much he tries to prove otherwise, just give him a taste of his own medicine how it feels to be lied to.

if he is stupid enough to go the next day, repeat the cycle.

Let him think he has you on the hook, he will be chuckling to himself how smart he is hoodwinking and outsmarting you after he did what he did, and now thinks "round 2".

Assuming he actually turns up for whatever you arrange, thats another factor to expect, you falling for the same sort of trap that im suggesting you do to him.

[blooming]

Blooming, what an experience you've had for a first relationship.  I'm sorry to hear that this has been your only opportunity yet to see what a r/s can be like.  At any point have you given thought to what an 'ideal' relationship would look like for you?  What would you say is important to you in a relationship?  This is important stuff to consider, as it helps you to understand what your values are, and I'm sure you'll find will reinforce those boundaries that you're holding onto so valiantly.

That's a very good question HQ! And quite a hard one to answer. I think trust is extremely important to me. It's something that's now completely lacking between me and my ex. Because of his cheating, his chatting with other girls on dating apps when we were still together, the fact that I know how much he has lied about his other relationships and has cheatd and deceived his other exes as well. He is such a good liar. You never know if he speaks the truth or not. For example, he now tells me that he hasn't dated anyone else than me these past 5 months. I find that extremely hard to believe since he has told me that since he started dating he has never not dated for longer than 2 weeks. So why would that change now all of a sudden? It just doesn't make sense. So I find it hard to believe. Respect and support are also important for me. Respecting eachother, not purposefully bringing eachother down (he has admitted many times that when he says hurtful things to me he does it on purpose, because he wants to get a reaction from me and he wants to 'punish' me for my behaviour I think). Support of eachother's goals is also important I think? My ex never wanted me to do anything he didn't like or hang out with people he didn't like. Things I enjoyed doing I couldn't do anymore because of his opinion about them. Being able to talk about emotions would also be something that I find important. I'm a very open person in that aspect myself and I have always found it hard that my ex wasn't able to express his emotions at all. That he dealt with them by for example going on a dating app instead of talking about how he was feeling with me.

Losing a first love is so hard, without the added complications of BPD.  I'm hearing in your most recent posts a lot of insight into his behaviour and his motivation.  There is strength gathering within you and this is good to see.  You have a future ahead of you, that you can shape to be one of your liking.  Put some thought into what you'd want that to be and focus on that.

This might give you some inspiration: Characteristics of Healthy Relationships

Love and light x
 

So sweet of you to say that you see a strength gathering in me. I don't feel it yet myself. It's so hard to resist him. Even though I know he's playing games. I know he's said these same things so many times before to his other exes. It's all a way to keep his power over you. He knows exactly what to say to get what he wants.

[blooming]

Just dont turn up blooming, let him stand there.

when he phones say "what? you told me it was tomorrow!"

then however much he tries to prove otherwise, just give him a taste of his own medicine how it feels to be lied to.

if he is stupid enough to go the next day, repeat the cycle.

Let him think he has you on the hook, he will be chuckling to himself how smart he is hoodwinking and outsmarting you after he did what he did, and now thinks "round 2".

Assuming he actually turns up for whatever you arrange, thats another factor to expect, you falling for the same sort of trap that im suggesting you do to him.

Haha no I don't think I'll do that, I don't want to lower myself to his levels and hurt him on purpose. He has done that enough with me for me to know that it hurts so much and I don't wish that to anyone, especially not to him. I still care too much about him. I can't be angry at him.