Alleged Child Abuse at UBPDex's house

[AnuDay]

I haven't had to start a thread on here in a while, but this issue is beyond the scope of what me and my circle of family and friends can deal with. 

So today my daughter 4 told me that one of my other daughter's friends, who is 8 years old, has been touching her private part (seems like genital/butt area).  This activity happens at my daughter's uBPD mother's house.  I asked my daughter 4 if she told the girl to stop and she said "yes".  I asked what happens after that, my daughter said that the girl comes back another day and does it again.  I asked my daughter 7 if she saw any of this happen and she said "No".  My daughter 4, said that she told her mother (my ex).  My daughter 4 is not sure if the behavior has stopped since she told her mother. 

My question is I am not sure about the severity of this issue and how far I want to go with it given that both of the girls are kids.
I don't question my daughter's truth, but there may be concern about the circumstances surrounding it being that she is only 4 and cannot fully express herself.  There's reason to believe that my daughter 4 is telling the truth because the other little girl is "fast", a bully, and has been labelled as being "bad".  My UBPDex watches the little girl sometimes.  Her and the girl's mom are close friends.   
 
My other reason for posting on here is that I proposed a meeting via text to discuss this with my ex so that I could get more details and work with her to resolve this issue.  I also wanted the kids to see that we were going to work together to resolve this. 
I did not share the details of the incident with my ex via text, just the general issue (because she seemed hesitant to meet).  She seemed surprised and totally unknowing about this issue via her text responses.  But I am suspicious about my ex's knowledge of these incidents because she was not alarmed and did not act with any sense of urgency about talking or wanting to know the details.  She even seemed lackadaisical.  She didn't even ask who the perpetrator was.
       
Our face to face meeting did not come to fruition because my ex said she didn't have a ride.  She didn't call me to cancel either.  She said we could just talk about it over the phone. 

I'm not sure what I should do.  I tried telling my daughter 8 to watch her little sister around her friends.  This did not make either of my daughter's comfortable.  My daughter 8 pleaded with me "can't you just do something?".

So here I am, sharing another deeply personal tidbit about my life on bpdfamily, hoping for some solutions, even if it's just discuss the matter over the phone with my uBPDex.  I really need eye contact and an ability to know that she will handle this situation properly.  She's a bit of a pushover so I'm worried that the situation will not be handled properly.       

[Turkish]

My daughter told me this just before she turned 2, but it was my ex BIL, then 17.

Because a female, even younger, doesn't mean it's a cause for concern or action. Your daughter is telling you that she is being abused. The gender doesn't matter: she's being violated.  I'd be firm on this with her mother.  If she wants to cover it up or hide it,  I'd call the cops to make a report.

[AnuDay]

Thank you Turkish,
Sounds like good steps to take.  I highly value your opinion.  I wasn't sure if I should just call CPS.  I don't want to open up a big can of worms.  Can you tell me what you decided to do about your situation?  Did you wait for more evidence?
Do you think you handled the situation properly and what would you have done differently?

[Turkish]

I wasn't sure what to do but knew I had to do something.  I called my T to describe what D2 (about to turn 3) told me and what then S5 told me.  He told me to report it or he'd have to.  I did. 

My ex's family had a history of covering up physical abuse (violent father) so I didn't involve her.  What I learned later is that S5 told his mom (My ex) she asked her mother and brother and they denied it and shamed her for bringing it up. 

The family hated me for a good year but they got over it.  Three kids went back but with safety measures. Then D4 bright up issues related to memories.  Grandma called her a liar.  The kids came out of the house.  Girls weren't protected in that family.

On the PSI board we have two members who were sexually abused by their mothers.  It isn't near as common as males but females can do it too. 

[livednlearned]

It has to be hard to go through this, AnuDay  

I did not share the details of the incident with my ex via text, just the general issue (because she seemed hesitant to meet).  She seemed surprised and totally unknowing about this issue via her text responses.  But I am suspicious about my ex's knowledge of these incidents because she was not alarmed and did not act with any sense of urgency about talking or wanting to know the details.  She even seemed lackadaisical.  She didn't even ask who the perpetrator was.

It might not be necessary that you have documentation, but it can't hurt to take screenshots of your text exchange.
       

Our face to face meeting did not come to fruition because my ex said she didn't have a ride.  She didn't call me to cancel either.  She said we could just talk about it over the phone.

I can see why you would want to be face to face. It might also be helpful to get things in writing, too.

I'm not sure what I should do.  I tried telling my daughter 8 to watch her little sister around her friends.  This did not make either of my daughter's comfortable.  My daughter 8 pleaded with me "can't you just do something?".

That might be too much to put on an 8-year-old. If she is not successful in protecting her D4, she could feel responsible and guilty for what happens. And our kids with BPD parents tend to get parentified/adultified, which can be overwhelming. Some of our normal parenting instincts get distorted because the kids are dealing with unnatural levels of responsibility with a parent who is disordered in judgment and behavior.

I learned this the hard way 

"I'm an adult and my job is to handle this. Your job is to be a kid. I'm glad you can tell me this stuff so that I can do my job."

I had to learn to say stuff like that because my ex's texts and emails put then S10 in positions no kid should be in. After a while the chronic intensity of trying to handle adult issues with kid level skills wore him out and he kind of shut down into depression

I really need eye contact and an ability to know that she will handle this situation properly.  She's a bit of a pushover so I'm worried that the situation will not be handled properly.   

   

We often say on this board that the best course of action is to shine light on the behaviors. What do you think of Turkish's example where he talked to his own T? Would you be willing to have a similar conversation with a counselor?

[Panda39]

This might be obvious but don't have the 8 year old over again (I know it's not your house).  Separate that 8 year old child from your 4 year old.

Panda39

[zachira]

Report to Child Protective Services (CPS) ASAP. When one child is sexually abusing another, it often means the child is being sexually abused by an adult. It is important to protect both children, and CPS will keep who made the report confidential.

[AnuDay]

Thank you everyone for your responses.  I sent the mother an email requesting that she keep my children away from the little girl.
The UBPD mom said that she knows the little girl has behavior problems and that the little girls slaps people on the butt. 
The UBPD mom seems genuinely concerned judging from her email response.  I am a little hesitant to pull the CPS trigger at this point as the UBPD mom seems to be cooperating and I am not sure if there is touching, butt slapping, or both.

Thank you for the info livednlearned.  I keep screenshots of most texts with her.  I don't have a therapist to run things like this by.  I've been doing ok so far without one (I think).  Your advise about parentifying my 7 year old was dead on.  I am guilty of parentifying
her myself because I know that there are things that the UBPD mom won't do I try to have the 7 year old look out for or do such as
teaching her little sister how to read.  I will definitely be changing my approach going forward.  Thank you! 

   

[Turkish]

CPS in my city has an anonymous hotline.  If you have that it might be worth a call.  You've done the first step by asserting a boundary. Talk to your child.  If this continues, it needs to be stopped for the sake of your child,  and even for that other 8yo girl.  My T also told me the spotlight analogy.  It comes from former Supreme Court Justice Brandeis who said that "... .sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants."

Please keep us updated.  I know how hard this may be to process since I've been there.  I spent 3 hours at a police window downtown making the report,  all the while feeling guilt as if I were doing something wrong.  This is a hard thing to deal with but protect your kids.  No one who counts will ever fault you for that. 

[ForeverDad]

Counselors, pediatricians and other professionals are mandated reporters, as Turkish indicated.  That's not a bad thing, it is a rule that is to protect the vulnerable or potential victims.  Hopefully, the CPS investigators who get a report will use their training and perceptive observations to determine whether there is an issue and how to address it.  They don't expect the parents to be trained or emotionally impartial enough to figure out all the ramifications.

As zachira observed, that other 8 year old may be imitating (or acting out) behaviors done to her.  By reporting this you may even turn out to be protecting more children than your own.

Or it may turn out to be nothing.  Your authority is limited to your children but there are persons trained who have authority to figure it all out.

[AnuDay]

I hear what you all are saying.  To be honest
1: I don't want to ignite a BPD blowout episode
2: I don't want to traumatize my children with police/counselor involvement (although as I write this, I'm starting to think this might be a good idea, because there are certainly other issues that a trained counselor will be able to spot).
3: I don't want to start a "you call CPS on me now I'm going to call on you."

Reasons that I should call:
My daughters are depending on me to protect them.  One of them has already said that their mom won't do anything. 
I am also starting to feel like my UBPDex won't be able to stand up to the 8 year old girl's mother and say "No, you can't come over" or "No, I can't babysit for you".  I am still waiting for an update via email that she will be able to stand up to the other mother, but it's been 14 hours and I haven't heard an affirmative that she will not let the little girl come back over.

Thank you all for your support.  This is a tough situation.  I will keep the thread updated.

[Harri]

Just a quick note to say that given the age difference between the kids (4 and 8) their play really should be supervised by an adult.  There is a great difference in development and socialization at those ages.  I know it happens with siblings but generally there is a parent nearby who watches things don't get out of hand.  I'm not sure of the situation though I did want to mention this.  My reason for stating that is apart from any suspicions of sexual abuse.

Some issues are worth addressing in spite of any potential blow-out.  The police and CPS are trained to talk with and interact with kids in ways that are not traumatizing.  If it ever comes to the point of an investigation, the kids will look to the adults in terms of how to respond, so I'd suggest getting a firm handle on your own emotions and fears as your kids will pick up on any signal even if not spoken.  I am sorry to say that IMO relying on uBPD ex being able to speak up, someone whose mental processing is damaged, is usually not going to be reliable or consistent in any agreement you may reach.  I hope I am wrong in this.  You know the situation better than anyone so if that does not fit, just leave it.   

Good luck with this.

[AnuDay]

I think I'm going to have to call CPS.  I have asked my UBPDex twice via email to keep both of my children away from the little girl.  She emailed a response saying she will keep my youngest daughter away from the little girl.  It seems like she is hesitant to cut ties.  

Subsequently, I talked to my two children assuming that butt slapping was the issue and they don't know anything about the little girl slapping anyone's butt.  I felt a little stupid with my line of questioning.  The most I got out of my oldest daughter was that   they said they've only seen the little girl slap her cousin's butt.  

After that a few minutes later my UBPDex came to pick the children up.  I used that time as an opportunity to ask her about the incident.  She was very very shaken and seemed to be lying as there were long pauses before her answers.  We didn't converse much as she seemed like she wanted to walk away fast and was short with her answers. I asked my UBPDex about the butt slapping.  She reaffirmed that the little girl does slap people's butts.  I asked the UBPD mom when was the last time the little girl slapped my daughter's butt.  The UBPD mom said on Saturday. I asked the UBPD mom what she was going to do about it.  She asked me what did I want her to do about it.   

In short, I think my UBPDex is trying to cover something up, as I initially suspected.  Unfortunately I will have to find someone with the authority and knowledge to get to the bottom of this.  

It's going to take strength for me to place this call; I am nervous, but I am going to try to do it in the next 20 minutes.  I can't sacrifice my children for my comfort or anyone elses.  Plus there is a chance that the situation may get out of hand if I don't step in now.  

Hari, I agree, it's going to be too much for the UBPDex to stand up to this situation... .it's blatantly obvious.

[AnuDay]

I just called.  CPS said that there's nothing they can do because my UBPDex said she will keep the little girl away from my daughter.  Also the little girl has to be at least 11 years old (maybe to put her through the juvenile court system?).  The agency would like the first and last name of the perpetrator, but I do not know her info.  They suggested I have my UBPDex call in.  They are more concerned about who is touching the perpetrator since it is a chain like many of you here have suggested.  If I can find out that info without alarming my UBPDex I will report it.
The call screener told me to look out for behavioral changes in my youngest daughter and to go over appropriate and inappropriate touching with both of my daughters.  If I notice any sexual behavior (of course it will be too late by then) or bad behavior with my youngest daughter then that might be a sign of abuse.       

[Turkish]

I'm glad that you called and it sounds like you got some useful info.  Brush up on the bettering communication tools to talk to your ex.  Make sure the girls use proper terms for their body parts. 

Though my son witnessed something, after the report we were sitting on the couch and he snuck his hand over to touch me between the legs.  I asked him why he did that (trying to sound calm) and he said because it feels good.  I told my ex and she said that he did the same thing to her husband who wisely told her right away. 

[Harri]

Good job calling CPS.

Here is an article from Psychology Today titled:  Teaching Your Child About Children Who Sexually Abuse by Fred Kaeser, Ed.D., is the former director of health for the NYC Department of Education 

Some excerpts: 
A little more than a third of all sexual abuse of children that comes to the attention of police is committed by another minor; typically a teenager between the ages of thirteen and seventeen. I find that to be a rather remarkable statistic that most people probably are not aware of. Moreover, about sixteen percent of juvenile sex offenders are under the age of twelve. Again, these are cases that are known by law enforcement. One can understand that the younger the age of the "perpetrator" the less chance there is that police would be involved. Not surprisingly, it is not hard to understand that a proportion of abusive sexual behavior committed by children less than twelve years of age is never brought to the attention of law enforcement. Very likely even a majority.

In addition, many professionals are disinclined to refer to sexual behavior done by young kids under twelve that is intrusive towards others as "abusive". Consequently, they are referred to as children "with sexual behavior problems". They are reluctant to categorize aggressive and even hurtful sexual behaviors that are committed by seven, eight, nine , and ten year old kids as behaviors that occur due to the same pathologies that can be manifest in adults or even older adolescents. That is, young kids that display intrusive sexual behaviors do so for different reasons than those much older do and as such need to be dealt with much differently. Nevertheless, whether or not we call certain intrusive sexual behaviors committed by young children as abusive or not, the fact remains that there are a percentage of kids younger than adolescent age that can and do inflict sexual harm on other kids.

Sexually abusive behaviors range from serious sexual assault like rape, sodomy and sexual assault with an object, to fondling, to non-forcible sexual offenses. Sexually intrusive behaviors are those engaged in by younger children that do not rise to the level of law enforcement involvement and include sexual behaviors that are developmentally inappropriate or aggressive in nature.

Sexually intrusive behaviors are sexual behaviors that occur between young children at a high frequency; or occur with intimidation, coercion, or force; or are associated with a considerable level of emotional distress; or occur in secret; or occur between children of significant age differences or developmental abilities.

Children will frequently express a certain amount of sexual curiosity and exploration with other children of the same age, size, status, and power. When they do this it is usually done with a sense of genuine curiosity and wonderment, coupled with a considerable level of embarrassment when caught. However, when one child is older or more powerful, or the sexual behavior is done excessively or it is not stopped after an adult has intervened and set boundaries, or if one child experiences fear, force, stress or anxiety, or the sexual behavior is of an adult nature (i.e. oral sex, attempted penetration, etc.), then the behavior should raise an immediate concern.

So whether your child is four years of age or older, you need to start a dialogue that addresses several key points. They are:

•   Clearly identify and label male/female private parts. Explain how private parts are different from public parts of the body and why.
•   Being curious about the private parts of someone else is normal. Whenever you have questions about private parts always come and speak to mom/dad.
•   Just like there are rules for behaving in school, crossing the street, etc. there are rules that pertain to our bodies. One set of rules pertains to our private parts. We never allow anyone to touch our private parts and we never touch another's private parts. Make sure to detail exceptions i.e. parents teaching their child how to bathe, a doctor examining a child's private parts, accidental touch of someone's private parts as when wrestling and playing around, etc.
•   We don't show our private parts to anyone else and they should not show you theirs. Again, there are exceptions like disrobing in a locker room that you can highlight.
•   We need to explain to our child that the above two examples includes kids they know well or don't know well at all, whether they are the same age or older. Other kids should not touch your private parts and you should not touch theirs.
•   Introduce the "Uh Oh" feeling. The "Uh Oh" feeling is something we get when something is happening to us that make us feel uncomfortable. Adults can be the cause of an "Uh Oh" feeling and so can another child.
•   Should an adult or another child try and touch your private parts or get you to touch theirs always say "No", try and leave where you are or tell an adult near you (teacher, parent), and always tell mom/dad.
•   Discuss with your child how an adult or another child can try to trick you into touching their private parts or trick you into touching theirs.
•   If an adult or another child does touch or tries to touch your private parts or get you to touch theirs it is never your fault.
•   Plan on having these conversations periodically throughout the year and every year with your child.
•   Use teachable moments to address as many of these issues with your child as you can.
•   Periodically create hypothetical scenarios with your child where she or he has to brainstorm solutions for managing an "Uh Oh" feeling or a possible touching situation.


Since you are no there when these incidents happen, and Mom is not dependable, we need to figure out what the kids can do that is reasonably within their capabilities and responsibility.  All I can think of is giving them a cell phone to call you.  The other thing I thought of is for you to insist on talking with the 8 year olds parent, not to threaten of course but to perhaps open a dialogue that can lead to a resolution.  Please note: I am not a parent.  I hope others with kids can step in with some possible strategies. **All** of these kids need help and support in calm and caring ways.

 

[ForeverDad]

The call screener told me to look out for behavioral changes in my youngest daughter and to go over appropriate and inappropriate touching with both of my daughters.  If I notice any sexual behavior (of course it will be too late by then) or bad behavior with my youngest daughter then that might be a sign of abuse.

What you did thus far was hard but the right thing to do.

If you didn't ask {CPS} for input and direction then it could be interpreted as you allowing or condoning it.  Also, this likely would be a good time for your children to start counseling, making sure the counselor is aware of such issues.  Even if mother opposes son to have counseling sessions, you could at least ask the school counselors to see what they can do.

In my case, I recall my son's therapist informing me that she had to teach him about each person's private areas (very simple, what is covered by a bathing suit?) and she asked, "Whose private areas can you touch?"  She expected him to say "Mine" but he answered, "Mother's."   The therapist saw that as a concern and worked with him on that matter but didn't call CPS about it.

Most likely they've logged the call.  You did the right thing.  Now you know where you stand and your options.  With an impending divorce coming up, your children would do well to have their own therapist.  Your spouse will likely object but court would be on your side... .courts love counseling for the kids if not the parents also.

[AnuDay]

Thank you everyone for your support.  Thank you ForeverDad.  Hari, that article was excellent, extremely insightful.  It makes a lot of sense that the most offenses would occur before the perpetrator's were old enough to be "charged" or seen as a "serious" threat, or "real abuse".  I will text the link to my UBPDex. 
Turkish, I will brush up more on my communicating with ex.  I have dropped the ball on this since we no longer live together, and I didn't feel like going through any extra effort, but it's an area of concern that many people in my life have noted.  It's just very hard to get a complete sentence out of her unless she's asking a question.   

[Harri]

I am glad you found the article useful.

Have you had a response from your ex?  What steps have you decided to take either with or without your ex?

[AnuDay]

I emailed her to contact CPS to help the perpetrator. Didn't respond. I sent her another email to at least talk with the perpetrator's mom.  No response. The next day I sent her a text with a link to the article you posted here.  She said Thanks and she sent me a text saying my daughter said the little girl "just touched her butt". That's the most that we've communicated.  It's like talking in circles and I get frustrated. 
I know she's probably scared to stand up to the lady plus she doesn't want to lose a friend so she won't tell the mom about the incident. Not sure what I'm going to do. 

[Turkish]

My D2, on the verge of 3, said that her uncle 17 (teenager, I know) told me that U17 "touched her butt." She was referring to her vagina,  as she told me when I was changing her diaper and noticed her private parts (vulva) were red.  I did nothing the first time she told me... .diaper rash, I didn't want to believe it,  and what was she really telling me?

That your daughter is communicating a personal boundary violation should be enough at the very least to forbid your kids from being around that girl.  I get being in your position and I get your ex being in hers,  not wanting to confront or deal with it. 

At the very least,  I'd be firm that you don't want your children to be around that girl again.  If my,  CPS can show up at her home to ask mommy questions.  I'd try the first path initially,  but make it clear that if she isn't willing to make sure that your kids are safe... ."hey, Ex. Ok. This is tough stuff, but what are we going to do in order to make sure D is safe from this girl?"

[Harri]

Hi Turkish gave some excellent advice.  Unfortunately he has been in this sort of situation. 

I am glad that you are following through with this and trying to talk to your ex... .not that she is making it easy for you though.

Please keep us posted.  This has got to be stressful but it really does need to be taken care of.   

[AnuDay]

I made it clear Turkish.  I agree with you 100%.  Can never REALLY tell what page the UBPD mom is on because she "flip flops" and she doesn't communicate well plus she will flat out lie.  I will check back later with the mom to see what page she's on.  I will also check with the kids to see if the girl has been around.  As of now I think the mom is in too much shock to let the girl around.  Her voice was still shakey 4 days ago.  I might text and ask if she has talked to the other girls mom yet to see if I can get some feedback. 

[Turkish]

This is tough stuff to deal with even for emotionally healthy people.  That it's a girl is another complication due to social conditioning. 

[AnuDay]

Just keeping things updated.  My daughter just told me that the little girl was back over. Guess I'll have to make another call to CPS or maybe I should just call the police first.

[Turkish]

D4 told you?

Have you had the body boundaries discussion with your daughters? Like what goes beyond normal play? That it's ok to say "stop touching me."

Police would eventually involve CPS. The more initial shocking response would be to have the cops show up there.

[AnuDay]

D4 told you?

Have you had the body boundaries discussion with your daughters? Like what goes beyond normal play? That it's ok to say "stop touching me."

Police would eventually involve CPS. The more initial shocking response would be to have the cops show up there.

D7 told me.  I have not had the discussion with them in 3 months.  I know I'm supposed to have the talk again.  I will try to do it later today. 

Yesterday I called CPS again.  The screener said there's nothing they can do because my D4 told her mom that just her butt was touched.
Susequently, today, I talked to my UBPDex in person about the incident from earlier this month for the first time.  She said the little girl and her mom came over unannounced last week.  Going forward she said she would watch the girls when they are playing together; kind of like "wait and see".  Of course this isn't a good enough action.  Theoretically it sounds good, but it's practically impossible.  She said she wasn't even going to talk to the little girl's mom... .or even the little girl for that matter.  Seems to me like it would make her too uncomfortable. 

I know if the little girls say let's go play in your room there's no way she could stand up to them and say "No, only play where Mommy can see you"... .maybe she can, idk.  She asked me if I wanted to call the little girl's mom.  I told her it wasn't my friend, it wasn't my responsibility, and it didn't happen in my apartment.  So she tried a argumentative tactic where she said "I'm not going to do what you want me to do".  I told her I don't want you to do what I want you to do.  I don't want to control you; I just want to know what action you're going to take to prevent this from happening again.  She said she was just going to watch them.  We weren't getting anywhere so I left it at that.  I have contacted some of her family hoping that someone will talk some sense into her. 

[Turkish]

Frustrating.

If focus upon teaching your daughters about body boundaries, that under the swim suit is McVey acceptable to touch.  And that they have a right to tell anyone to stop touching anywhere that makes them uncomfortable. This might be hard given that kids naturally do what they do during play. 

We are dealing with something at our kids' Brazilian jiu-jitsu dojo.  A teen who volunteers with the little kids' class.  We noticed last weekend that he let our daughter sit on his lap.  Mo and I both told her not to do this, and I said even with me she shouldn't do that past 8 or 9 (she's 6). Rolling on the mat is one thing; other than that is another. 

It's difficult trying to teach them what's proper without putting unnecessary things into their heads. I play with the little kids in between classes.  Some kids want to sit on my lap.  But I don't let them.  Children are so innocent... .it's up to adults to protect them. 

[AnuDay]

 Just to update this thread: the last I heard was that some of my family members had reached out to my UBPDex about the situation.  They say she appeared to be very responsive and she was taking the matter seriously and she was concerned and she understood the seriousness of the situation.  My UBPDex hasn't said anything to me about these conversations. I haven't heard of the little girl coming back around and my daughter's know to be careful around the girl.  They also don't want her around.  I'm comfortable about the situation now I just know I have to keep my eyes open.