People suffering from BPD are incapable of love. I disagree.

[Wicker Man]

I have to disagree a little bit with the implication that people suffering from BPD are incapable of love.  

I am certain in her way my ex loved me -this was likely, if for the sake of argument we accept my assumption of BPD, need based and our relationship would have continued to erode.  I am not implying our love was sustainable, healthy or we were experiencing the  emotion of love in the same way, but there was love.

She seemed to be the hardest on the people she loved the most.  Her grandparents, who stood by her hell or high water, certainly weathered a lot of storms -but I know she adores them.

Wicker Man

[Husband321]

Do you feel there are several components to love?  How is it defined?

I feel love encompasses respect, affection, bonding, sharing, taking care of another, trusting they will take care of you. etc etc. Its more than just emotions.

If we base love solely on affection, then I would agree BPD are capable of great love... They can love you as deep as the Atlantic Ocean and up to the moon. They can gaze at you with child like eyes, and in that moment love you with every fiber of their being...

But sometimes love puts demands on people, and do you feel a BPD is capable of those responsibilities... Can you separate love from demands?  

  If you find yourself in a hospital bed, would they be by your side? Or view you as abandoning them and freak out... Can they put their needs aside, at least momentarily,  because they love you?

[Wicker Man]

I feel love encompasses respect, affection, bonding, sharing, taking care of another, trusting they will take care of you. etc etc. Its more than just emotions.

I would like to think with a lot of hard work, the right partner and therapy it is possible for someone suffering from BPD to form a lasting and healthy relationship.  This notion is theoretical on my part as I have no antydotal evidence and I am not a health care professional --however I would not like to write off nearly 2% of the population as being beyond hope and incapable of love.  

BPD obviously makes forming a lasting relationship difficult (... .here I have antidotal evidence) -but not impossible from my readings.  

My experience was brief and I saw the risks far too high to continue our relationship, but I sincerely hope she can one day find help, the right man and create a healthy relationship for herself.

It was the compassion I felt for her which initially compelled me to begin posting.  

Wicker Man  

[Jeffree]

If you find yourself in a hospital bed, would they be by your side? Or view you as abandoning them and freak out... Can they put their needs aside, at least momentarily,  because they love you?

Mine would be by my side, but not selflessly for me, but rather because it is obviously the socially accepted and immutable gesture to make that she can then tell people she did because she's that amazing of a person. It would also help her erase many of her previously cruel actions toward me IN HER MIND. It's sort of like the sinful abuser who repents for his sins on his deathbed. At no point would such a gesture on her part be about me, but rather something she can use to ascend to the lofty heights of the pedestal she has herself on.

However, if I hadn't unmasked her for what she is, I would be none the wiser to her motives behind such a gesture.

J

[Wicker Man]

I have only known one undiagnosed person who very likely suffered from BPD.  There are high and low functioning people with BPD.  I am guessing many people with high functioning BPD significant others never end up here.

Were some of our current or past significant others monsters?  From what I have read here, absolutely yes.  Were we treated badly and worse?  Some of us, once again, yes.

However, I dislike overarching generalizations and damning statements which imply everyone suffering from BPD is incapable, or worse undeserving, of love.  My ex presented traits so similar to what I have read here on the boards it almost seemed as if someone had been watching my relationship and taking notes, but she is an individual.  She is a summation of her experiences, culture, and sadly her disorder. -I could not continue to love her, but I hope one day someone can.

If we use exaggeration and hyperbole we are essentially falling into a behavior which many of us disliked from our BPD lovers.  I can certainly understand the will to do so.  We, as a community, are in pain varying from discomfort to bone crushing dismay  --I understand the anger.

I would, however, like to put forward the gentle reminder every human being is an individual, and we should take a bit of care in using generalizations and projection.  

To address the hospital bed example... . I think if we were freezing she would not have hesitated give me the shirt off her back.  I think, however, if the rest was due it would never get paid.  For important issues I believe the cultural importance of family would have overridden even her disorder... . The day to day she was horrible E.g. I was at work 17 hours and she didn't make it out bed, much less out of the hotel to buy milk.  The shop was 1 block down the street... .

Wicker Man

[gotbushels]

Good discussion.  

[zachira]

Wicker Man,
You are right to encourage members to soften their tone when speaking of people with BPD. When we make people with BPD all black, we are essentially exhibiting a well known BPD behavior. One of the problems that is frequently exhibited on this site is that members blame the person with BPD to the point, that the member does not grow or change, because they refuse to do anything about their participation in the relational dynamics.

[Wicker Man]

One of the problems that is frequently exhibited on this site is that members blame the person with BPD to the point, that the member does not grow or change, because they refuse to do anything about their participation in the relational dynamics.

This makes sense.  When people are in extreme pain, feel lonely, and lost it is incredibly difficult to look within.  Through my experience with a BPD lover I learned of my own need for therapy.  My need is two fold -coping with the loss brought me in and learning how to better myself has kept me in therapy.

Wicker Man

[Cromwell]

I think this discussion leads to confronting a very sore point, it challenges the belief of having been loved in the r/s.

My ex was officially diagnosed with BPD, however the diagnosis fits like a glove in most respects, yet so does it nicely fit with APD. (anti social personality disorder). With her alcohol use being the dishibiting influence.

My ex associated "love" with having to endure "pain". The two were codependent on one another, couldnt be isolated. If there wasnt any pain yet, she created it.

So yes there is a capability of love, but the very meaning attached as to what love is, is what I feel leads to incongruence in the r/s. When I suffered as a result, she brought up the explanation of "tough love" as a way to exonerate what she did. She creates the hurt first, rather than to be the one to wait for what she thinks will inevitably hit her instead. She cheated on me before there was ever a chance, that she could "love" me and that I would have done it to her. Expecting me to stay, which I did, takes away the claustrophobia, she knows I cant love her anymore, it is sabotaged, but im still in her life. its emotionally safe ground now. Ironically, my staying with her in the midst of being hurt, is the closer form of love that she got, it exactly ties in with her very world paradigm of what love is supposed to be. It normalises - in her mind - the hurt of feeling abandoned from her parents.

Its all very sad, but thats what it is, the part of me staying around to enable it further is what my r/s with her consisted of. Nowadays I barely talk to her, more validation, and she has done this in every single meaningful relationship.

For her to feel love viz a viz to the way I regard it, would involve changing her own concept of it first. It would be the same as asking anyone to do the same. Asking a bit much I think?

my ex doesnt bother about "love" these days, the closest thing she has is trying to keep the remnants from her past who still have an interest in her hooked along, she can replay each time the good times and splice out the rest. She will have at any given moment in time a "favourite person" who she emulates their personality, an act of necessity not adoration, as she once did with me.

Again the fact that I still have contact but barely talk to her is a closer aquistion of "love" based on hurt, than the guys who try everything to win her approval by caring/respecting for her. Its why at so many times in the r/s she practically begged me to be nasty to her. the very rare times I did, reflexively, not intentionally, she was fine with where any other would have called it a day and left.

[BPDFamily]

  Click here for more of this article

[Wicker Man]

I think this discussion leads to confronting a very sore point, it challenges the belief of having been loved in the r/s.

I believe this is precisely why the moderators split this discussion off and created the thread.  It is perhaps it the sore points we have to look at to learn and grow.

It is diabolically difficult for me to now try to access my relationship through the lenses of time and pain.  My view is by nature subjective and biased heavily by the tumultuous nature of events.  However, I am doing my best to sort out my perception of the relationship and how my nature factored into it.

My goal is self discovery and ultimately healing.

Wicker Man

[Zen606]

Hi everyone,
Yes, I do believe that those with BPD or traits feel affectionate and passionate love, at times intensely for their partners, yet it is difficult for them to develop it further because of the illness. I do not doubt that my bp trait ex loved me very much, but he could not see it through because of all of his fears.
Zen606

[Chynna]

Can an undeveloped toddler brain love unselfishly?

[Harri]

Love, like any other emotion or behavior of a pwBPD will show the same dysregulation as anything else.  Black/white, push/pull, hate/love

If we can accept that their anger is real why can't we accept that their love is real too?  Sure, it is immature but how is that different than anything else?

[Husband321]

Anger is a much more simple emotion than love. A car cutting you off might make you angry.

As nons, and most others, we tie conditions to love. There are demands. I don't know if BPD's are capable of fulfilling those.

I like to think "love" is more than a childlike feeling that can change instantly. Similar to how A child might love a toy.  Forget their toy.  Get mad if someone else has their toy. Then forget the toy as if it never  existed. Then maybe one day play with that toy again if they are bored. That type of "love" is not what we as humans are after. It's like getting 10 percent of everything that encompasses "love"

[Harri]

As nons, and most others, we tie conditions to love. There are demands. I don't know if BPD's are capable of fulfilling those.

Those expectations of love are what we as adults expect.  You are defining *their* love based on your definition.  It is too easy to get caught up in a debate about what love is, but generally that leads to a conversation around semantics.  The reality is, my pwBPD/mental illness (my mother) loved me according to her definition of love.  The fact that her definition does not match mine does not make her love any less real.  It was what she was capable of giving.

In expectations and demands there are limitations.  It is the limitation of their love that is the problem.  

[Wicker Man]

If we can accept that their anger is real why can't we accept that their love is real too?  Sure, it is immature but how is that different than anything else?

My therapist treats several people with BPD and told me when love with people suffering from BPD works it can be an amazing experience.  Trying, difficult, but wonderful.  He also told me, in my case I may have done the right thing in ending the relationship due to extenuating circumstances.

Perhaps we should remember our forum.  This is a site devoted to people who are having difficulties with relationships in the best of cases and suffering from extreme trauma in the worst of cases.  Our collective view is going to be quite dark.

I have said before.  When my ex loved me she did it deeply, and when she hated me she showed just as much commitment and passion.  I could not stay in the relationship -but this does not mean I should make blanket statements about the disorder in general -I cannot and should not even attempt at diagnosing her.  I have been quite careful to always include 'undiagnosed' when describing her.

I am simply trying to suggest caution in exaggeration.  

Perhaps this subject inappropriate and I certainly do not want to cause our fellow members undue pain.  

Wicker Man

[Husband321]

Those expectations of love are what we as adults expect.  You are defining *their* love based on your definition.  It is too easy to get caught up in a debate about what love is, but generally that leads to a conversation around semantics.  The reality is, my pwBPD/mental illness (my mother) loved me according to her definition of love.  The fact that her definition does not match mine does not make her love any less real.  It was what she was capable of giving.

In expectations and demands there are limitations.  It is the limitation of their love that is the problem.  

True.  I think even involving the word "love" confuses things greatly.

Are they capable of momentary deep affection and infatuation. I would say yes.

When I met my ex wife she did not have her kids. They lived across the country with the dad. There was a long believable story about why she did not have them.

In the end, slowly over years, and after talking to her ex husband she just dropped them off at school on day and disappeared. She did this several times over ten years. Would be gone for months. A year etc.

So would we say that that is motherly "love"?  Yes.  At times she would miss her kids. And she would have affection for them. But her own needs prevented her from caring for them. Being around them. Protecting them. Raising them.

Most people who do not understand BPD would not make excuses for her. "You are a crappy mom who doesn't care about your kids".

[Wicker Man]

... .loved me according to her definition of love.  The fact that her definition does not match mine does not make her love any less real.  It was what she was capable of giving.

This is precisely the concept I was hoping to entertain.  

My ex loved her grandparents.  Now... .In her consistent love for her grandparents there were rough patches... . E.g. when she tore all of the flooring out of their apartment with her bare hands.  She was mortified for having done so, but I believe never stopped loving them.  I further believe her grandparents never stopped loving her -floor or no floor.  They accepted who she was, both the light and the dark.

Wicker Man

[Chynna]

I accept/respect the uniqueness of everyone's situation here. That being said, (for Wicker Man) I don't think the "love" pwBPD feel for grandparents and little brothers is tatamount to the standard of love (i.e. expectation, etc.) they hold nons accountable to. After 8 mo. N/C I just see things with more clarity... .BPD love vs non love. I sincerely hope this does not come across as black/white thinking. I am very much a 'grey' area thinker(prolly why I may have stayed w/ xbf longer than I should have.) I suppose a r/s with pwBPD can be an amazing experience. But I think genuinely loving/committing to another fellow human being can also be an amazing experience. Everyone on God's green earth is uniquely special... .of course their love is real no doubt... .pwBPD are wired differently and so their definition is going to be different.

[mylovewbpd]

I can only speak to my experience and my wife is still untreated and undiagnosed (because she quit therapy once the therapist began to see that she was BPD).  This thread is so good and it is my belief that ANY one of us can only love to the level of love we know how to give.  BPD or not. BPD sufferers are not heartless but are limited in how they love.  Not all BPD will stay this way though, there is help and tools and I believe that if they want it bad enough... .it may be possible to feel and give the fullness of real love.  My wife chose to blame me and leave.

In the beginning of our courtship, I think my wife definitely felt the emotions that go along with love; for a good long time. She seemed to think the sun rose and set with me, still showed some selfishness occasionally and I caught her in (seemingly) white lies but I thought I could FEEL how in love with me she was most of the time so I never doubted we would last forever!  However, with the growth of a relationship and maturity in life, inevitably couples go through times of stress or indecision or change.  In 2017, we were talking about making some big decisions in a GOOD way (ie, contemplating buying a home, moving out of state, and she was about to graduate university). Those emotions and feelings of love she had for me were then put to task because I needed her tell me what she wanted so we could make decisions and she began disengaging.  She didn't tell me that maybe this was scary for her, all this change.  She let me believe she was happy and excited for these things.  Then this year, I found out I had multiple fibroid tumors and needed surgery. I would need her to care for me for up to 8 weeks. Suddenly, her feet were to the fire and she jumped ship within a month or so. For her, this was the limit of her "love".  She would have been fine if all had stayed the same forever but the demands of life showed the level of her devotion and commitment.

Her "love" for me was clearly a great example of what Husband 123 said earlier, "If we base love solely on affection, then I would agree BPD are capable of great love... They can love you as deep as the Atlantic Ocean and up to the moon. They can gaze at you with child like eyes, and in that moment love you with every fiber of their being... .But sometimes love puts demands on people, and do you feel a BPD is capable of those responsibilities... Can you separate love from demands? If you find yourself in a hospital bed, would they be by your side? Or view you as abandoning them and freak out... Can they put their needs aside, at least momentarily,  because they love you?"

Everything I have ever known or studied about   tells me it is NOT conditional, fleeting, or based on feelings alone. I learned the hard way that my wife's love was not real love.  It was the level of love she got at home... .her parents never supported her or encouraged her or believed in her.  It was the level of love she got in her friendships... .she was always finding friends who would use her and discard her when it suited them but would defend them to the death if I brought up any flaw in the dynamic there.  It was the level of love she got from her siblings... .who only suck up to ask for help then ignore her when she needs them.  For me, I cannot accept this level of love from anyone in my future.  It has been so hard to move on because I fooled myself into thinking she had that that deep-rooted, unconditional real love I had for her.  I now have to choose someone who will love me at the level that I am at.

Husband said it best, "I like to think "love" is more than a childlike feeling that can change instantly. Similar to how a child might love a toy.  Forget their toy.  Get mad if someone else has their toy. Then forget the toy as if it never  existed. Then maybe one day play with that toy again if they are bored. That type of "love" is not what we as humans are after. It's like getting 10 percent of everything that encompasses "love".

[Chynna]

So WM, is it that you hold onto what could be and not what is? If only... .

[Wicker Man]

So WM, is it that you hold onto what could be and not what is? If only... .

Of course I wonder what would have happened if I had stayed with her.  

Is there a curative power to love?  Absolutely.  Could it have been enough?  I will never know.

Could my love for her, the support of her family and all the members in our compound been enough to assuage her fear of abandonment?  Maybe... . I will never know.

However, can I now say she is incapable or undeserving of love?  Absolutely not.  I do not wish to damn a fellow human being with the statement 'You shall not be loved'

Wicker Man

[Harri]

 I have enjoyed following this discussion even back when it was part of the much larger thread (which was split into three parts!).  I think this topic will always generate a lot of discussion and differing opinions based on individual experiences and that is exactly what I enjoy about it and why I decided to jump in.  These kinds of discussions are what makes this board so wonderful.  My opinion is based on my experiences with my mother, my ex and a former roommate.  I saw the same thing in each of them:  they were completely convinced that they could love and saw nothing wrong with the way they demonstrated or acted on it.  It fit their definition but not mine, so I accepted the difference left them to it.  

I think a lot of the difference in opinion also lies in accepting or not accepting that the pwBPD is who they are and act according to their own set of rules.

[Skip]

Do you feel there are several components to love?  How is it defined?

DEFINING LOVE Don't we need to say what love is if we are to evaluate it anyone's capacity for love (ours/theirs)?

So to start, what is the epitome of love that we seek to express ourselves? What is the epitome of love that we can hold for a person with weaknesses greater than ours (child, aging parent, a pwBPD).

To me, the purest examples or love can be found in a parents love for a child. I'm not saying all parents exhibit great love, but rather, if you are looking for role models, you will find some of the best here. For those with a spiritual view, this could include God's (father) love of us (children).

I see love as a seed that grows and changes in time with nurturing and care. In develops.

The word love is often thought to be a translation of the greek word “agape” which carries a sense of strong emotion and affection. I think this is an important and necessary start for all of us - the seed.

To me, the seed of love, if meaning should slowly grow in a romantic relationship to a higher level that I hope to achieve one day (and probably will never fully achieve). This love is to support another person in becoming who they want to be (not who I need them to be for me). To always see them, "get" them, appreciate them for who they are, even when they are not on their "A" game. To be strong for the relationship - which means to be strong for both myself and my partner in concert (not competition) with one another.

We can try to growth this type of love in life, but it will not take in most of our relationships - only in the right relationship.

Many of us have seen the words these words: love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails... . and now these three remain: faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love.

Is this a decent starting definition (in whole or part) for this discussion? If so, how far did the seed grow in your relationship (from your side)? Now that the relationship is over, what has that seed of love become?

Hard questions. I know.

[gotbushels]

Many of us have seen the words these words: (... .) love.

Is this a decent starting definition (in whole or part) for this discussion?

I think this is a great starting definition.

This love is to support another person in becoming who they want to be (not who I need them to be for me). To always see them, "get" them, appreciate them for who they are, even when they are not on their "A" game. To be strong for the relationship - which means to be strong for both myself and my partner in concert (not competition) with one another.

I think this is the part that can get really difficult sometimes. To me it's a win when I sometimes don't get what I want as #1 in order to accommodate someone else--even if that #1 is really important to me. Recognising that accommodating the other person is #2 (and I still want it) helps me a lot.

[Chynna]

Seed germination requires certain growing conditions. My r/s couldn't make it much passed the honeymoon stage. Looking back - knowing what I know now - even that was a little choppy. The seed unfortuneatly suffocated.

[once removed]

love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails... . and now these three remain: faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love.

this is what i aspire to; it is more a commandment to me than the good bar setting that it is. it is the same love that i would hope to receive.

with every category (better at some than others) i frequently fall short.

every human is limited in some way(s) in their capacity to love. when i hear topics like this discussed, they always come down to exactly how unconditional the love of a human being can be.

if the above is the standard i try to live by, my ex and i were each better at some than others, better overall at some times than others, but we both frequently fell short. one of the hardest lessons of my life (it shook me right to my foundation) is that two people can love each other very much and yet fall short as a romantic pairing.

everyone is capable of love. everyone is limited in their capacity to love.  everyone should aspire to greater love.

[Skip]

DEFINING LOVE Don't we need to saw what love is if we are to evaluate it anyone's capacity for love (ours/theirs)?

Don't you think we all fit on a spectrum?  How would you rate your "loving" in your relationship with the exgf/wife against the definition above on a scale of 1-10 (10 being best). In what areas do you think you could have done more?

[JNChell]

Maybe the question should be, are we capable of loving them? They loved us first. I will bet my paycheck on it.

I was ill equipped to know what I was getting into. I ran just as hard and head first into the relationship as she did.

She loved me first. I was hesitant, but she loved me first. I was there. I know. Of course she is able to love! She loves her daughter and our Son. She loved me until we couldn’t handle each other anymore.

It is a spectrum thing/Disorder, and this is why we shouldn’t go back and forth with each other. Our experiences have similarities, but are very personal and very different and we should be mature enough not to generalize.

Do people love? Are people with Borderline Personality Disorder, people? Come on. They love... .