People suffering from BPD are incapable of love. I disagree.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

JNChell,

pwBPD might have the capacity to love, but are they able to devote all that love to the person with whom they are in a relationship with forever?

Let's say you and I have a bucket filled with love. We chose to give all the love in that bucket to our pwBPD with the expectation that it would be forever given to that person and to no other person romantically.

More than likely our pwBPD has the same bucket, maybe even a bigger bucket, BUT they were not capable of giving to us all that love with the COMMITMENT that it would be forever. They gave it knowing they could either retract it or give it to someone else if they felt we didn't deserve it. That's not really unconditional love.

It sounds to me as though you're talking about the love your pwBPD gave you as existing in an instantaneous "Ah ha! There is/was" moment in time. Thus, technically, she was capable of it for at least a brief moment in time, but when you love someone it should be unconditionally everlasting. That kind of love I do not believe pwBPD are capable of.

J

[Jeffree]

JNChell,

pwBPD might have the capacity to love, but are they able to devote all that love to the person with whom they are in a relationship with forever?

Let's say you and I have a bucket filled with love. We chose to give all the love in that bucket to our pwBPD with the expectation that it would be forever given to that person and to no other person romantically.

More than likely our pwBPD has the same bucket, maybe even a bigger bucket, BUT they were not capable of giving to us all that love with the COMMITMENT that it would be forever. They gave it knowing they could either retract it or give it to someone else if they felt we didn't deserve it. That's not really unconditional love.

It sounds to me as though you're talking about the love your pwBPD gave you as existing in an instantaneous "Ah ha! There is/was" moment in time. Thus, technically, she was capable of it for at least a brief moment in time, but when you love someone it should be unconditionally everlasting. That kind of love I do not believe pwBPD are capable of.

J

[JNChell]

Hey, Jeffree.

pwBPD might have the capacity to love, but are they able to devote all that love to the person with whom they are in a relationship with forever?

Short answer, no, they’re not. There is an exception to this, and we know what that is, but we also know the chances of them seeking therapy and becoming successful with it.

It sounds to me as though you're talking about the love your pwBPD gave you as existing in an instantaneous "Ah ha! There is/was" moment in time. Thus, technically, she was capable of it for at least a brief moment in time, but when you love someone it should be unconditionally everlasting. That kind of love I do not believe pwBPD are capable of.

Yes, this is beginning to become my understanding of how it went. I wouldn’t quite describe it as instantaneous, though. It was more like a love me today, hate me tomorrow cycle. Over and over and over... .Again, the resources are available for them, especially for a trait afflicted person like my ex that is lower on the spectrum. Unfortunately, I’m at a point where it’s time to accept that it is what it is, and understand that that isn’t going to happen, and I can’t do anything about it.

[once removed]

"love isnt a feeling, its an ability" - dan in real life

a dumb movie quote, i know.

but if love is a feeling, and capability of love is limited to the ability to sustain that feeling, i really dont know anyone who is capable of that.

i do think its an ability that everyone has. i also think everyone has a limited ability.

[zachira]

Thank you Once Removed. Yes we can learn to be more loving. I need to stop thinking of love as an overwhelming feeling that I cannot control. I believe the longing for love is the overwhelming feeling, and practicing being more loving with myself and others would definitely relieve the overwhelming feelings. It helps to remember there is more pleasure in giving than receiving, and for me particularly when loving children and animals.

[Skip]

DEFINING LOVE Don't we need to saw what love is if we are to evaluate it anyone's capacity for love (ours/theirs)?

Doesn't it make sense that we all fit on a spectrum and within that, our ability of love changes as we grow more emotionally mature?  

Personally, I have a hard time looking at this as a black and white situation. If this is my model for love (see definition in quote box), then I would rate myself as average at best during "before BPD relationship" and "improving significantly and still growing "after BPD". I have not achieved that lofty status, but am reaching and learning what it means.

DEFINING LOVE

I see love as a seed that grows and changes in time with nurturing and care. In develops.

The word love is often thought to be a translation of the greek word “agape” which carries a sense of strong emotion and affection. I think this is an important and necessary start for all of us - the seed.

To me, the seed of love, if meaning should slowly grow in a romantic relationship to a higher level that I hope to achieve one day (and probably will never fully achieve). This love is to support another person in becoming who they want to be (not who I need them to be for me). To always see them, "get" them, appreciate them for who they are, even when they are not on their "A" game. To be strong for the relationship - which means to be strong for both myself and my partner in concert (not competition) with one another.

We can try to growth this type of love in life, but it will not take in most of our relationships - only in the right relationship.

Many of us have seen the words these words: love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails... . and now these three remain: faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love.

My ex appears to be on a similar trajectory. She blew up her first marriage (he ultimately committed suicide over it), our relationship was great, but had some difficult aspects (and there were a lot of environmental stressors at the end), she had 2-3 more failed relationships and finally married again and has been for 7 + years.

Side note - her mother wend through 5 marriages before landing one that lasted for decades.

Can you give a reasonable honest assessment of your own short comings in love? It's humbling, at it is important self-awareness.

I think doing this, gives us a better ability to rate our ex's and understand where they were on the spectrum and what type of trajectory they are on.

It's a much more complex analysis than "are BPD people capable of love". I think it's a much more emotionally intelligent understanding of where we have been in life and what we can learn for it.

[Zen606]

Hi everyone,
I think that those with BPD or traits are capable of love, however the mental illness that they experience distorts their thinking and throws many obstacles in the relationship path. It is a very sad thing to see someone really want a relationship but not be able to know how to balance their fluctuating emotions. From my own experience with a bp trait ex, he wanted to be happy but was so scared that he would sabotage himself, making it very difficult to maintain a relationship with him. His track record in other relationships made this clear.
Zen606

[spacecadet]

Interesting question. I've no particular insight regarding BPD but have asked myself since r/s ended a year ago, what is love anyway? Wanting to know when I really feel it, and how to assess when others - another - might feel it for me. For me there are two components:

1) Longing to be close to that person, although this waxes and wanes of course. But in general... .wanting them in your life, yearning to be in their company, know them more deeply than we do with casual friends.

2) Wanting what's best for them. This involves a setting aside of oneself.

Back to pwBPD, they seem to feel love on the 1) very, very keenly. This aspect of love is very much like need, and I'm not clear on the distinction or whether the two can be distinguished.

The more evolved of these people have a capacity for 2), although it seems very stunted because they're so self-involved. The more severe the BPD, the more I question whether there is ANY capacity for concern over others' well being.

[Jeffree]

When I think of the way in which a pwBPD loves it's different than that of most nons.

Whereas pwBPD choose to share their bucket of love with many anyones.

Nons seem to tend to share theirs with a select few special someones.

J

[once removed]

Can you give a reasonable honest assessment of your own short comings in love? It's humbling, at it is important self-awareness.

i struggle with what spacecadet mentioned.

2) Wanting what's best for them. This involves a setting aside of oneself.

for me, this is where my love can blend into codependent tendencies. had it before i came here, when i came here, and it still rears its head: i think i know whats best for everyone. inevitably, i often push it on them in some form. i get frustrated when it doesnt take.

there is a seed of love within that, i think. who doesnt want everyone to be happy, at peace, and living their best life? i have compassion for human suffering, or even every day frustrations. my faith commands me to help others who are struggling. to spiritually enrich the lives of others. to be a good example.

when im not careful, it can also be stifling, smothering, and disrespectful of another persons humanity and autonomy or even my own. i can be wounded (or at least pouty) when my efforts are rejected or impatient even when they are accepted. i do this in ways both big and small... .in the small cases its more trying to push my taste on them (im so obnoxious about this when it comes to music), or the latest concept ive learned that helped me.

my faith also commands that i help others selflessly. we learn a lot here about differentiation, about boundaries, about acknowledging and taking care of our needs, but i havent taken any of that to mean that i personally need to help less. learning about these things has helped me to help better and make it less about myself. not responding to that call (if there is call in the first place) with a rush to provide "whats best". to remove myself from the picture, at least as best i can.

have i improved? i am grateful that i can say yes. for starters, i am more self aware of my tendencies, i can catch them, and switch gears. i am a better listener. i have thicker skin when it comes to people rejecting my efforts, and i can take "no" for an answer even when its not clearly articulated. i better appreciate others, and what makes them unique. i better appreciate and understand their struggles (if they apply). when im helping someone struggling, i give far more mature advice. simply, ive taken some of the best aspects of my instincts and improved on them skillfully, and diminished some of the worst aspects in extent and frequency; they will always be a part of me and rear their head from time to time.

i have no idea what trajectory my ex is on currently. i think when we came together, we were on a similar trajectory... .in some ways we had learned from past mistakes and brought that into our relationship, and in other ways, we brought those past mistakes into our relationship, even made new ones. i think we learned a lot from each other, and in some ways, definitely grew together.

i encourage everyone to give this exercise a shot. itll be good for you  

[Zen606]

Hi Jeffree
I agree with you about the BPD individual wanting to share their "bucket of love with many anyones". This makes sense when one considers their fear of abandonment, their need to have several possibilities lined up, just in case the partner leaves. I saw this clearly with my ex- when he sabotaged himself by telling me he no longer had to go to Walmart to strike up friendships with women, friendships that could jeopardize our relationship. He meant this as a compliment.

He is probably at Walmart right now, wandering through the aisles. For me he was the only one I wanted.
Zen606

[gotbushels]

once removed  

i think i know whats best for everyone. inevitably, i often push it on them in some form. i get frustrated when it doesnt take.

Well when you tend to have lots of the right answers... . 

my faith also commands that i help others selflessly.

I have something similar in my faith. At the same time, parts of the religious text I follow teach not to waste resources on undeserving persons. So I find the choosing bit hard. At the same time, putting limitations on myself and whom I help seems to improve my quality of life.

my faith commands me to help others who are struggling. to spiritually enrich the lives of others. to be a good example.

A high bar. I admire that.   I struggle with this too. Is the struggling whom we are to help? Today--while thankfully we don't often find people stripped and left for dead--to me, it's hard telling for whom we are to provide that care to. Complex methods and personalities make this job more difficult. In any case I'm so thankful many of us here are in that position of provision and not the other.

I think loving can sometimes be difficult.

[zachira]

Having grown up in a BPD family, I believe that I was groomed to want to help people I can't help. Indeed one of the biggest acts of love is not to rescue others, because when we do all the giving in a relationship, we are showing that we care more about their problems than they do and nothing changes. What is hard is to know when a BPD really needs help and when we are just plain rescuing them, and it is all so sad as they desperately crave having a loving person in their life that will do everything for them. I think sometimes the BPD feels our love and then maybe they do love us back in their own way; yet the loving feelings towards another are fleeting, and turn into hate when the fear of not being worthy of love and abandonment surfaces.

[MeandThee29]

Having grown up in a BPD family, I believe that I was groomed to want to help people I can't help. Indeed one of the biggest acts of love is not to rescue others, because when we do all the giving in a relationship, we are showing that we care more about their problems than they do and nothing changes. What is hard is to know when a BPD really needs help and when we are just plain rescuing them, and it is all so sad as they desperately crave having a loving person in their life that will do everything for them. I think sometimes the BPD feels our love and then maybe they do love us back in their own way; yet the loving feelings towards another are fleeting, and turn into hate when the fear of not being worthy of love and abandonment surfaces.

Well said. My mother had NPD and became more malignant as she aged. I went no-contact multiple times and gradually found a measure of peace there. It was easier in some ways because I was financially independent and moved across the country.

However, I married someone with "traits of" BPD. I look back and see how I was a magnet for him as much as he was looking for someone like me. It was good for many years until it began spiralling down. I actually thought that I could pull it out if I could just be a better spouse. Nope. Our long-term therapist (he had seen her as well) told me a full year before we separated that he was going to leave and predicted his suicide attempt and many of the things that have happened since. It's been uncanny how accurate she has been.

They do love, especially if they just have "traits of." They can be great partners and employees. However, when it gets malignant, you're looking at something else. When they are all about controlling and destroying, you have to step away.

[Zen606]

Hi Meandthee 29,
I agree they do love, although once one realizes what is going on you start to doubt everything. Those individuals with bp traits can make great partners, for a while. My ex could be wonderful for 4 months, it was heaven to be with him, I thought him my refuge from the everyday world, and then something would happen in his head and he would self-sabotage. We went through 2 recycles. I could not stand another. Reminded me of my mother's behavior. Time to walk away from him -- NC for 7 months. LNC with my mom, a call every 6 months is enough for me.
Zen606

[zachira]

What is so insidious about people with BPD is the loving feelings don't last, yet they can have loving feelings for long periods of time until something triggers them into dumping hate onto a loved one. Healthy people get validated by their parent(s)/ person(s) who raised them so they are able to love under the most extreme circumstances. Viktor Frankl did not lose his capacity for loving feelings when he was put in a concentration camp; he indeed reminded himself that the Nazis could not control his feelings. Perhaps the path to healing for those of us who have/had a person with BPD so deeply affect our lives, is to strengthen our ability to feel love and compassion even under the most extreme circumstances, so we don't get triggered into feeling frozen by bitterness and anger. Perhaps this is why we are asking if a BPD person is capable of love. We want to feel the love of the BPD not the hate if we are indeed to heal, because the feelings of hate that are dumped on us will continue to just overwhelm us and paralyze our healing if we allow the hate to dominate our lives.

[BeagleGirl]

I've really enjoyed reading this discussion.  Now I'm going to chime in.   

I'm finding myself looking at this from three different angles of the question:

1) Are pwBPD capable of feeling long term emotional attachment?
2) Are pwBPD capable of choosing to put the needs/wellbeing of others ahead of their own (my simplest definition of love)?
3) Are pwBPD capable of sustaining an intimate relationship?

Of course, all of those questions apply to us nons as well, and I agree that all of these things lie somewhere along a spectrum with plenty of room for improvement all around.

I think the three categories are interrelated.  It's harder to choose to put the needs of another ahead of your own when you don't feel some emotional attachment.  It's harder to maintain an intimate relationship if you aren't consistently demonstrating a willingness to put the needs of your partner ahead of your own.

I am definitely aware that many of the actions I took that I believed were "loving", in that they put the perceived needs of dBPDxh ahead of my own, were often codependent and enabling and ultimately not the most loving things I could have done.  I know that I played a role that made it a lot easier for him to not recognize and seek treatment for his disorder and often I did so because it made ME feel better. 

I believe dBPDxh is as capable of all the definitions of love that we have come up with as I am, but I also believe that his disorder makes it less likely that he will choose to exercise that capability.  I believe that, barring a sustained effort on his part to learn to deal with his BPD, he will continue to discard relationships that don't center around meeting his needs.  I believe he will continue to choose behaviors that make him feel better in the moment but destroy trust.  I don't believe he will work towards a relationship that would consistently require him to set aside his own desires, as all loving relationships ultimately do.  For his sake and the sake of our sons I would love to be proven wrong.

Not to take this topic in a different direction, but I'm finding myself wondering if the question more relevant to where I am now is "Am I capable of recognizing the kind of healthy love that I want to offer and receive?"  I have known the "Love is patient, love is kind... ." definition all of my life, but have lived many years putting the label "love" on behaviors and feelings that I now see were not healthy or loving.  I've spent the last two years starting to put boundaries up regarding what I will not accept in a "loving" relationship and that has resulted in divorce.  I don't want to repeat my mistakes if/when I enter into other relationships and if I keep the same acting definition of love that I've had all these years, then there's not much hope for a different result.
 
BG

[Enabler]

I am not sure that agape can exist in the emotional red zone (Dysregulation). Love is just not compatible with primitive survival instincts. True deep love is altruistic which is in direct conflict with typical narcissism experienced when anyone is fight or flight mode... .

But... .many pwBPD are not constantly dysregulating (I'm sure some are), which means there are windows of opportunity where we can experience a very deep personable, potentially altruistic love from them. Yes, some of these times will be in the shadow of guilt and remorse about their actions during a period of dysregulation but others will not. The idealisation phase is by it's very nature just a period where the pwBPD hadn't yet accumulated any emotional triggers or enough fear of loss such that they don't cross the emotional dysregulation line and were capable of love.

I believe the switching above and below the red zone means they are not capable of consistent love, but then since we are all capable of anger, capable of crossing the line into the red zone, we're all capable of periods where love cannot reside, but maybe longer extended periods where the ingredients for true love to flourish.