I wrote what I consider to be a really good letter

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Oh the "conflicted" I totally get, I'm there too. I get she replied fast, reached to meet fast, and withdrew as fast. I don't mind the conflicted I' worry about her if she was not

Hail Mary (actually your phrase-ology ) was because it seemed like the short feel each other out moves were sort of blocked. If she'd done 'crazy week can we try another?' I'd have danced with her. Didn't see a good way around 'can't make firm plans' open-ended. So yeah Hail Mary and let her resolve her conflict with ALL the information.

60 Days is not that long a time in a love life unless something falls out of the sky. For instance my last girlfriend (aka Love of Live I mentioned before) was just immediate serendipity. For most non BPD people I know going from an explosive break-up with serious partner/potential to new person doesn't happen like that. And again then don't ask to meet!

I was really just trying to suss out if there was really a chance that wanting to meet after all this time the moment I reached out could possibly be to re-dump me aka hey lets meet I'm seeing someone. Really Skip just paranoid. You read the letter that is a LOT of putting youself on the line. Basically condensed everything she did over 18 months into one letter, I guess she deserved it. Going into Day 2 now officially so a little worried is all. Mostly feel good though.

1T,

You're trying to determine which camp she is in. I think she has sent the signals of a person who is conflicted. The pros and the cons don't clearly point in one direction for her.  

You have been in that place too.

And time changes things. She woke up everyday for 60 days (if I have that right) deciding what she was going to do that day to take her life forward now that you were gone.

You had a choice of a series of short "feel each other out" moves or a Hail Mary, as you called it earlier, a big move. Gemsforeyes idea of flowers was a good one. I think you and pearlsw worked out the language and imagery well.  

These things are multi-dimensional and very complex - a lot of moving parts.

Skip

[1stTimer]

Oh the "conflicted" I totally get, I'm there too. I get she replied fast, reached to meet fast, and withdrew as fast. I don't mind the conflicted I' worry about her if she was not

Hail Mary (actually your phrase-ology ) was because it seemed like the short feel each other out moves were sort of blocked. If she'd done 'crazy week can we try another?' I'd have danced with her. Didn't see a good way around 'can't make firm plans' open-ended. So yeah Hail Mary and let her resolve her conflict with ALL the information.

60 Days is not that long a time in a love life unless something falls out of the sky. For instance my last girlfriend (aka Love of Live I mentioned before) was just immediate serendipity. For most non BPD people I know going from an explosive break-up with serious partner/potential to new person doesn't happen like that. And again then don't ask to meet!

I was really just trying to suss out if there was really a chance that wanting to meet after all this time the moment I reached out could possibly be to re-dump me aka hey lets meet I'm seeing someone. Really Skip just paranoid. You read the letter that is a LOT of putting youself on the line. Basically condensed everything she did over 18 months into one letter, I guess she deserved it. Going into Day 2 now officially so a little worried is all. Mostly feel good though.

1T,

You're trying to determine which camp she is in. I think she has sent the signals of a person who is conflicted. The pros and the cons don't clearly point in one direction for her.  

You have been in that place too.

And time changes things. She woke up everyday for 60 days (if I have that right) deciding what she was going to do that day to take her life forward now that you were gone.

You had a choice of a series of short "feel each other out" moves or a Hail Mary, as you called it earlier, a big move. Gemsforeyes idea of flowers was a good one. I think you and pearlsw worked out the language and imagery well.  

These things are multi-dimensional and very complex - a lot of moving parts.

Skip

[1stTimer]

Reply. Ambiguous. In fact I got it last night at 8:30 didn't see text indicator.

"Thank you for the thoughtful flowers and note. I am open to talk truthfully. Perhaps sometime this week.? Would you mind if I reach out to you to see if your available an hour or so before I think would work for me"

ANY idea what this means? Again she calls a missive from the heart 'a note' perhaps just easiest way for her to say it. I sort of have a feeling or foreboding on this to tell you the truth. Does this mean she thinks my note was not truthful? Does this mean she has a truth about how she felt (that I won't like)? I just really don't like the whole tone of it to be honest. I'll meet her for sure but this doesn't smell like reconciliation to me at all.

[once removed]

i read it as:

1. im interested in getting together
2. i want to talk... .i may have things to say/get off my chest
3. its gonna be short notice. is that cool?

[1stTimer]

i read it as:

1. im interested in getting together
2. i want to talk... .i may have things to say/get off my chest
3. its gonna be short notice. is that cool?

I get those parts but it is... .icy cool. The way she was the last night together. The way she replied to my first letter ("thanks for the nice note". The way she was with her 'lots happening. can't make firm plans". All way at odds with her usual demeanor even her initial very happy reply.

Again don't love 'truthfully'. Don't love last minute. I get she wants to get together and tell me something(s) but nothing about this reads to me as any remaining affection/desire/reconciliation. Means basically just walking into being told off or told truths I probably don't want to hear. Yeah I get I opened myself up to that, but you'd think a letter like that would engender a little more warmth? I'm still behind the 8-ball on this since the last night; SOMETHING made her furious with me and run, some 'truth' she thinks she knows. Not 'talk openly'. Not talk 'honestly'. But... .truthfully.

Anyway I'll meet her but not seeing anything good (for me) coming from this. I can't really back out now but I'd wager there is not only not a reconciliation but not a friendship or relationship at all after we meet. I'm gonna say 90% find out about 'the other guy' and some choice issues she'll get off her chest. There is not a shred of the girl who saw her life with me, who wanted king size beds. I sense great... .animosity.

[1stTimer]

I guess I don't see that my "note" (my 6 page custom cut spiral bound book with almost poetry about her throughout) affected her in the slightest. Anymore than my last letter did. So I'm really just walking into a shooting gallery IMHO. And again; as much as I took ownership of what I didn't do when we were together a huge part was her as per my original journey to this board. So do I want to reach out with something like I did and just show up to be a punching bag get this off my chest so I can tell my therapist I did and move on hour of Vestra Culpa? Or 'here is the truth I never loved you you were my back-up for Bob I returned to?'. I don't see as where we have much to discuss to 'close' this personally and if she had/has things to 'get off her chest' the 'note' (that took several authors and editions to craft) should be enough for her.

Yet nothing about that reply seems as if there is any affection or desire to come together. I said

"Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here for you. Until then and forever if not"

So why not just leave it as forever if not?

[Skip]

I think that is a realistic and timely response. More good than bad.

With respect for you and caring, I say this to you... .While you have climbed a mountain in terms of improvement (and we all see that   ), you do not read her well. I don't think you read her well prior to the big day, after the big day or in her recent texts.

She lived an extended period of unrequited love from you. You didn't owe it to her to have loved her (your feelings are valid). At the same time, to go forward you have to understand how damaging that was and know that damage is the environment you are working in now. You can't whisk it away because you feel different now. It happened. It was real.

You said understand conflicted. In that context, her first email response was 55% go forward. The second was maybe 60% go forward. The third was 45% go forward. This last one is 40% go forward.

I think you were throwing the hail Mary looking for a touchdown (85% go forward). Most Hail Mary's don't result in scores... .they are, by definition, literally, long shots.

"Thank you for the thoughtful flowers and note."
It's a subdued thanks. I got it. I know you are reaching out. I care enough about you as a person to talk more.

I am open to talk truthfully.
This is a tip off that there is some reality to be dealt with here. At 40% after three exchanges, this means its not over, but it also means the letter did not fix everything.  If it was over, she would ignore you or say "I have a boyfriend" or "I'm not interested".  You did not get those.

Perhaps sometime this week.? Would you mind if I reach out to you to see if you're available an hour or so before I think would work for me"
She is really busy with something... .but willing to do it sooner on an adhoc basis.

So, how have you handled this in the past?  From what you have told us and shown us, you have reacted strongly, stood behind that reaction strongly, and defended that reaction strongly. Your "reaction" reflex is already on high alert.

Don't trigger, man.

Let go of your idea that the note would be received as something to put under her pillow. It wasn't. But it did move things forward. There is more damage than 1 note is going to fix. Recognize that now is the time to be quiet and listen and step back to think about what she is saying. Empathy.

I might even think in terms of seeing her twice, once to listen, once to reflect back on what you heard (rather than jumping for a quick answer).

Ambiguous? Not really.Conflicted. I think this has been the reality all along.

I might respond with something like... . I am open to listen to you, and talk truthfully. That would be really good at this point. I can do it on short notice. (example only)

So I'm really just walking into a shooting gallery IMHO. And again; as much as I took ownership of what I didn't do when we were together a huge part was her as per my original journey to this board. So do I want to reach out with something like I did and just show up to be a punching bag get this off my chest so I can tell my therapist I did and move on hour of Vestra Culpa? Or 'here is the truth I never loved you you were my back-up for Bob I returned to?'. I don't see as where we have much to discuss to 'close' this personally and if she had/has things to 'get off her chest' the 'note' (that took several authors and editions to craft) should be enough for her.

You've talked a lot about a strong man recently. This is time for a strong man. Not a timid man, not a man with iron walls up because he is afraid of rejection, not a runner. You handed out months and months of rejection to her. What message are you sending to her about your "manhood" if you can handle the possibility of an hour of rejection from her?

[1stTimer]

I think that is a realistic and timely response. More good than bad.

With respect and caring, I say this. While you have climbed a mountain in terms of improvement (and we all see that   ), you do not read her well. I don't think you read her well prior to the big day, after the big day or in her recent texts.

There was an extended period of unrequited love. You didn't owe it to her to have loved her (you feelings are valid). At the same time, to go forward you have to understand how damaging that was and know that is the environment you are working in.

You said understand conflicted. In that context, her first email response was 55% go forward. The second was maybe 60% go forward. The this was 45% go forward. This last one is 40% go forward.

I think you were throwing the hail Mary looking for a touchdown (85% go forward).

"Thank you for the thoughtful flowers and note."
It's a subdued thanks. I got it. I know you are reaching out. I care enough about you as a person to talk more.

I am open to talk truthfully.
This is a tip off that there is some reality to be dealt with here. At 40% after three exchanges, this means its not over, but it also means the letter did not fix everything.  If it was over, she would ignore you or say "I have a boyfriend" or "I'm not interested".  You did not get those.

Perhaps sometime this week.? Would you mind if I reach out to you to see if you're available an hour or so before I think would work for me"
She is really busy with something... .but willing to do it sooner on an adhoc basis.

So, how have you handled this in the past?  From what you have told us and shown us, you have reacted strongly, stood behind that reaction strongly, and defended that reaction strongly. Your "reaction" reflex is already up.

Don't trigger, man. Let go of your idea that the note was not received as something to put under her pillow, there is more damage than 1 note is going to fix. Recognize that now is the time to be quiet and listen and step back to think about what she is saying. Empathy.

I might even think in terms of seeing her twice, once to listen, once to reflect back on what you heard (rather than jumping for a quick answer).

Ambiguous? Not really. Conflicted.

I might respond with something like... . I am open to listen to you, and talk truthfully. That would be really good at this point. I can do it on short notice. (example only)


You've talked a lot about a strong man recently. This is time for a strong man. Not a timid man, not a man with iron walls up because he is afraid of rejection, not a runner. You handed out months and months of rejection to her. What message are you sending to her about your "manhood" if you can handle the possibility of an hours of rejection from her?

I replied quite simply: "Of course. Reach out when you want I'll find a way to be there". Or some such. I'll meet her and listen. And try not to 'react'. I guess I don't know how unrequited love feels. I mean I've been interested in people who were not and had crushes, but no if what she said over months (and months and months) is to be trusted, I've never wanted a life with someone I had a relationship with too and got only some of what I wanted "knowing" I'd never get the rest and having my advances/gestures taken for granted. I'd guess is hurts like hell.

Thanks Skip. I'll go, take my needs/hurt/etc out of the equation and make this about listening to her. Whatever comes. Argh damn this board to hell!

[1stTimer]

You said understand conflicted. In that context, her first email response was 55% go forward. The second was maybe 60% go forward. The third was 45% go forward. This last one is 40% go forward.

I think you were throwing the hail Mary looking for a touchdown (85% go forward). Most Hail Mary's don't result in scores... .they are, by definition, literally, long shots.

Well maybe closer to 100% :|

Seriously though, given your guestimates and using those I guess I expected this
55% GF on my first reach out
60% on her invite
40% when she backed off
65% on this letter

Meaning the letter, while not fixing EVERYTHING introduces a whole wealth of new information on now only how I felt but how I understand how my 'inability' affected and hurt her. We've discussed this to death on the board for weeks, she however has never heard a word about this from me. Ever. She had no idea on the birthday, the texts that meant so much, that I know how it hurt her to not be acknowledged, how I really felt. So realistically yeah I don't expect her to swoon and be 100%, but that should be way more than 60% when she invited me out knowing NOTHING about any of this except what her hurt still was. But how did the letter make me take as step BACKWARDS to the worst GF so far?

I'll tell you from reading various replies from her over the months; either she runs these past her therapist or is gifted at these kinds of replies and communications.

[Skip]

Meaning the letter, while not fixing EVERYTHING introduces a whole wealth of new information on now only how I felt but how I understand how my 'inability' affected and hurt her.

Be careful with this. 1T.

Are you saying, even though I acted like unrequited love and you felt unrequited love and I walked away a couple of times... .my note says, I really loved you?

Actions. Feelings. Words.

I would listen really carefully to her... .she will clue you in on how she balances those actions, feelings, and words. Here them. Work within what she says. Don't defend and invalidate.

She could list 100 times that you should have sent flowers and didn't. That these don't make up for that.  What will you say?

You have to listen and work with what she gives you... .an be authentic about it.

[1stTimer]

Are you saying, even though I acted like unrequited love and you felt unrequited love and I walked away a couple of times... .my note says, I really loved you?

Well first of all I didn't walk away a couple times. I walked away once when she did her 'dont want a relationship' after putting me through the grinder to ask, to prove it with official ask and dinner, and a day of her future bombing me (while pissed at me)

I'm saying that what I said about not being ready was valid and true but that should not have stopped me from acknowledging, appreciating, reciprocating and sharing the feelings I did have despite any fears I had. I could have been scared to get closer or open up more and still send flowers after my birthday and told her just how special it was to me. Even IF that scared me. Because I owed at least that much to her.

She could list 100 times that you should have sent flowers and didn't. That these don't make up for that.  What will you say?

I have no idea what I will say. Internally I'm saying I can't make up for that.  That for whatever it is worth I wanted to, and for whatever it is worth I understand I caused her pain by not. And I did not intend to cause her pain. The flowers aren't to take away her pain they are to tell her I understand and am sorry.

I'm just guessing here but I think her issue might be different than anything we are discussing here.

You have to listen and work with what she gives you... .an be authentic about it.

That is what I'm saying. I think there is something here totally at odds with what I am saying or said in my letter. I might have touched on some of it. "Truthfully" tells me I did not. Her cold fury the last day did not. Her staying totally out of touch tells me I did not and her coldness even when reaching out or back tells me I did not. I said this when I started and even before I arrived here; I MISSED something. BIG. Did she read something, hear something? I don't know. But if her issue was just that 'you never cared or understood' my letter would have had much more impact. I think in fact it was a near miss.

But I agree; the woman is busy and still taking the time 2 months later to meet and talk. I'll listen.

[Skip]

She could list 100 times that you should have sent flowers and didn't. That these don't make up for that.  What will you say?

I have no idea what I will say. Internally I'm saying I can't make up for that.  That for whatever it is worth I wanted to, and for whatever it is worth I understand I caused her pain by not. And I did not intend to cause her pain. The flowers aren't to take away her pain they are to tell her I understand and am sorry.

Say, tell me more? How did it make you feel?

Empathy.  

Trick question.

[1stTimer]

Say, tell me more? How did it make you feel?

Empathy.  

Trick question.

Ahhh. Not here to answer. Here to hear. I understand. Not here to defend. Not here to explain. Not here to justify. Not here to make up for anything. Just here to... .hear.

[pearlsw]

Hey 1stT,

Quick tips if you do meet:

1) Study these ahead of time:

Don't JADE.

Validation

2) Listen with no thoughts in your own head.

3) Slow down your reaction times.

4) Focus on kindness.

5) Be in the moment.

6) Be grateful.

She may have spent the last two months trying to get over you - in the various ways one does that. Give her time to open up again and feel for you again, if she can, at her pace. It takes a lot of mental and emotional work to move back from one set of feelings to another - for some of us!

good luck! ~pearl.

[1stTimer]

Hey 1stT,

Quick tips if you do meet:
Don't JADE.


3) Slow down your reaction times.

I think these two most important for me thank you. I am a born quick-draw Jader.

[1stTimer]

essage_board/index.php?topic=81442.0]Validation[/url]
She may have spent the last two months trying to get over you - in the various ways one does that. Give her time to open up again and feel for you again, if she can, at her pace.

Are you saying she seems to have gotten over me or ir not open/feeling for me from her text?

I will say this from memory; her texts and emails were always as I called them "Spocky". I'd even ask when things were good (sigh) "Are you mad at me?" and she'd say not that is just the way I email/text it is not personal. Even on our 'be my one and only' night her email was perfuctory and in person she was almost over emotional. I think part of her assumes that her boss/someone is hacking/reading her emails thus 'thanks for the nice note' originally. We would joke on how literal she is vs how descriptive I am/.

Not trying to mitigate her reply but "I'm open to talking truthfully" could be another way of saying " we could start with a walk in the park and see what we have when we both bring open hearts.".

Just saying that yeah we have things to work out but given her communication style history going a year + back it is all in all positive.

And I'm not forgetting that 'truthfully' is a two-way street.

[1stTimer]

I don't think you read her well prior to the big day, after the big day or in her recent texts.

What do you think I misread prior to The Big Day and After The Big Day? Some big cue besides "Ask Me Officially to Be Your One and Only" and ":)ont' want to be your One and Only?" Seriously what did I miss here because my 'didn't appreciate you' meme is not flying I missed something BIG.

Recent texts I read as:
1) Hi SO Happy to hear from you! Want to talk soon?
2) Want to meet and talk about what happened and us?
3) I changed my mind, give me time to think

How is that wrong?

[1stTimer]

Say, tell me more? How did it make you feel?

Empathy.  

Trick question.

At some point however I'm going to need to 'explain' as I don't think she is just going to keep telling me how my 'rejection' felt or how she didn't believe I really wanted to commit to her (again I think there is some big elephant I totally missed here unrelated to what I THINK the issue is). I can't keep saying 'tell me more', 'that must have hurt', 'you were just asking for some indication I saw a future with you and I ignored it that must have hurt' etc. I'll sound like her therapist for one thing. I'm gathering she wants some ANSWERS unless she just wants to vent. How do I do that w/o defending/justifying/explaining? Some of those are precisely because I felt not only pushed but I felt invalidated (often); not caring where I was or what I had or the situation I was in or had been in.  So how do I answer these questions if they come up without starting a conflict, invalidating HER position, making it seem like I'm explaining/excusing?

[1stTimer]

You've talked a lot about a strong man recently. This is time for a strong man. Not a timid man, not a man with iron walls up because he is afraid of rejection, not a runner. You handed out months and months of rejection to her. What message are you sending to her about your "manhood" if you can handle the possibility of an hour of rejection from her?

I want to point something out on this also since they are related; I didn't hand out 'rejection' as much as handing out not giving her as much and full a relationship as SHE wanted and SHE needed at the time in total disregard for where I was. That is an element of what has gone on here too. I wasn't some s***hteel. I wasn't some guy who snubbed her and ignored her and then invited her over for fellatio.

Part of my whole 'manhood' fear that enters into this that was utterly ignored; I'l repeat; not some recent divorce. Not some guy who just lost a promotion. Lost EVERYTHING; love, career, money, home, then 12+ years of losing father, family, endless vicious conflict no door struggling to rebuild life living on a cot man while my mother drifted into suicidal thoughts and the entire family was torn about until I really had no one. I'm TERRIFIED of more loss. This is not only in relation to her now, this is part of what she knew about me. Respecting my need to slowly open up was not given and while I'm willing to sit and hear her pain or truth man mine is a huge and valid part of this. My fear to even sit down and be dealt more loss is hugely valid. It isn't just "timid guy scared to be rejected by girl he handed rejection out to for months and months'. I'll hear, I'll validate. But you know what? I wasn't heard or validated at all.

That letter was stupendously hard to write, admit and more to the point I had to drop EVERYTHING about it that was real and valid to me that has never been acknowleged. Do you think 'speak truthfully' will include any work  she's done on 'boards' to realize when you tell a man you want a committed relationship and he tells you he is not ready he wants to be in a secure place and get back on his feet so he can take care of a woman first and she pushed hard anyway and THEN tells you her and her mother and sister say you need to start courting her when you CANNOT it is HURTFUL to HIM? Because they don't care how it makes you feel knowing you cannot sustain it just that it will make HER feel good? When they ignore all the amazing ways you DO treat her simply because you haven't, as her mother said, 'upped my game'? I guess the days I spent helping her to get a 50% raise don't count as 'game'? I put all that aside to understand her pain and wrote a letter for the ages to let her know

You've asked me to keep my pain here and not even MENTION it but how can I do that if it is central to what happened? As central as my failings? As intertwined?

I will meet and do as you suggest, just understand my "timidity" doesn't come from being 'timid' it comes from everything that came in the last decade and a half AND everything she did to simply ignore it for her needs. I'm trying. But you know what? Whatever she did to 'get over me' in the last two months, she could have also done some introsepction to understand this and, when she got the type of "NOTE" I sent her to take in the enormity of the gesture and in context to the things she should know she did to hurt me. Yeah I get it is NYC you can find umpteen men to 'court' you. Yet she is alone for all these years. Which one of them would offer to take her to the emergency room at midnight wheh she had the highly dangerous and contagious winter flu, the emergency room I practically LIVED in since 2003 watching my father die and my mother break every bone in her body? NONE. I deserve a little more slack and a little more respect.

Sorry for the vent but again I seem to be boxed in the 'I was a mean man and hurt a poor girl who dealt with unrequited love and have to listen and validate and never mention my own hurt'.

If she wants to "talk truthfully" I will even if my truths push her away because, IF we find a way back to each other I'm not doing it as man without testicles, who buries his own pain and needs and hurt just so his woman has none. THAT is not the man I want to be, not for her and not for any woman alive.

[pearlsw]

Hi 1stT,

I'm here. I read your post. I hope I am not responding too quickly before I've absorbed it all. I want to say that I hear the pain you are in. You have been through a lot and are carrying a lot.

We can talk it about it. I'm here for that, right with ya, okay?

But let's sort this a bit... .okay? All your avalanche of past stuff is not for this first meeting with her if it happens. Not at all. Not because you don't have valid feelings and not because you don't matter, but because it is not a good look for a first meeting after a break up. Okay?

I'm trying hard to refrain from making a cheeky comment, but I'm a cheeky gal. (Note to self: do not make cheeky comment about testicles right now.)

So, talk to me. What happened with your parents? What is your past stuff? What is your pain? You can tell us here and get it out here instead of bringing it to your make up meeting, okay buddy?  

So you lost everything in a previous divorce? I knew someone once who told me he'd literally lost all but his underwear, and he barely kept those, but he was able to say it with a laugh by the time I met him. He remarried an incredible woman and had a couple of kids and had a whole lot of career success and was just an all around great guy. Life went on. One of my brothers had a pretty vicious first wife who did her best to destroy him and his relationship with his kids and mine too for that matter... .My brother is now with his third wife who understands and adores him and he sees at least one of his kids who became an expert in PTSD and seems to be a pretty understanding gal. They are living it up and having a great life together! Maybe your story has a happier ending one day too.

I think nearly every guy I've ever been really good friends with has horror stories about exes. So, you have my ear. What did Pat Benatar say about this?  "Love is a Battlefield". Sorry, I had to be a little cheeky!  

But in all honesty, let's talk. We're here. We're listening. We want better things for you! Sounds like a good idea to to work on your own healing as part of this process, for this or whatever your next relationship is when you are ready for it!

warmly, pearl.

[pearlsw]

p.s. and about the 2 mo's I just mean if she was not contacting you these last months and you were not contacting here that was a pretty sharp break. I can't guess what was going on in her head, I'm not sure she even has BPD or BPD traits so I can't come at it from that angle either... .I just know what it feels like to no longer be in contact with someone and how you gradually adjust to that. Her being nice at all is a good indicator. Maybe there was pressure on her from friends or family, some advice, to keep away, who knows. I just imagine some people try to reorient their feelings after a big blow up. They might be very angry for awhile, they might convince themselves about bad things about you, they might not see you the same as before. We don't know what happened. But we're here and we're waiting too! You are not alone!

[1stTimer]

Hi Pearl, as always thank you for your support. I have no intention of letting lose on her at all. I just meant in terms of being 'timid' or in terms of this whole thing being about big-bad-1st making up for hurting the poor unrequited love girl. I was expecting more a a response, sure (Skip at it at 40% forward I'd have expected some serious movement) but again she is very cool and undemonstrative in her emails/texts and always has been so we'll see what she is like in person

So you lost everything in a previous divorce? I

No I don't mean the 'lost it all in a divorce' story. I mean I lost everthing I had, built and loved. I moved to San Fran after losing a business I loved that brought me great happiness to a partner.

Decided to rebuild. Fell in LOVE with San Francisco, found my real self for the first time, mostly because away from family so I could be who I was not who they said. Got pretty steady freelance work in the business I'd been in, made great friends. And out of the blue had love-at-first-sight kind of love I'd only thought was in the movies.

Amazing. Got to give every part of myself I knew I had but hadn't given and her too. Silly stupid romantic words. Every time we met in the street but were talking on the phone I'd say as I saw her "I have to go I just saw the most beautiful woman in the world I am going to go kiss her" and she'd say "That is fine I just saw the most beautiful boy and I am going to let him kiss me". Corny but f-man. She'd grab my knee or arm out of the blue, squeeze it and with her eyes wide incant my name because her heart was spilling over. Waitresses used to say half-kidding 'you'll need to let go of each other's hands if you want to eat your food'. I deided to propose to her,  bring her back to NYC to meet my mother (same birthday), have a horse drawn carriage take us to the Boathouse in Central Park and then take the gondola they have under the white stone bridge in the moonlight where you can see the building I grew up in and propose.

So I had her, a city I loved, friends, no business per se but making good money. Dot-com bust hit, business dried up, rent was hard, etc. Long story short is she flipped out on me one day about money/career, had me on the floor in a fetal position she was laying into me so hard using all the dreams I ever told her about. naturally knowing me I sent a stupid letter that pretty much kabashed it. Didn't read a thing except what she considered insults. Didn't know a thing about the things I learned here. Then she quit her job, moved out of the apartment she'd been in for five years, her friends all ripped me apart, realized much later on she'd likely gotten pregnant and had an abortion. Did some super romantic gesture that had her stammering, had an amazing moment under the moonlight (possibly the most amazing moment of my life) and hten it all blew up as her (loser male) friends poisoned her and she did some horrid thing in front of everyone (or let someone else). I was 1/2 way to walking to and off the Golden Gate Bridge.

In any event now I'm in San Francisco; my career is over. I don't have enough to even fly home. I can't pay my rent. The absolute love of my life (sorry Skip) not only has left me, her friends have convinced of untrue things so that now not only will we never reconcile this woman who thought I was the most amazing PERSON she ever met will spend the rest of her life thinking I am scum.  Not much support from idiot sisters at home (one says to me regarding a potential business deall I am making "what happens when they find out about your record?" I ask my SISTER "What the heck are you talking about I never JAY WALKED in my life" cause she has no idea who I am).

I btw did not let the career going south stop me, I was not on her couch eating cheerios lamenting my life, I was actively pursuing new opportunities; I had a technology I'd been working in I applied for a PATENT for, and was dealing with a restaurant group that wanted to invest in an idea and we were looking for space (among other things I was doing). One of her male friends poisoned her so much when she said 'you aren't doing anything' and I said "I filed a PATENT" she said 'yes but the proposal was 30 pages too long' (not that she'd read it her idiot friend had, I guess being verbose and being a LOSER are synonymous). From a girl who had only one person in the world supporting her career change, ME. Anyway I digress as usual

So I left San Francisco after scraping up $300 with it all gone. I came back to NYC to figure out how to rebuild, handed out flyers while in tears down town manhattan. Really could not go back to career. Was living with parents. Bad place. Family dog my father loved more than anything died slowly and seemed to trigger his dimentia onset. He slowly got worse and required more and more home care. I was doing dog walking which is about as lonely a thing you can do if you had a career before; in peoples homes looking at the pictures of their lives you'll never have now while the place is empty and picking up poo in the snow and the heat.

Lived on a cot in the kitchen, no door, havent had one for years. Had to help with dad which meant him falling down, slurping at dinner because he couldn't operate lips right, peeing and pooping himself and being mortified he had and not being able to get a sentence out unless you patiently (I wsa the only one who did) LET him. I came back one night with his favorite candy, honey sesame bar and he just looked at me and took it and patted my shoulder with tears in his eyes because he couldn't even process the words with his brain.

A ton of infighitng since we had three adults in the house all watching dad/husband drift away house smelled like urine, sister with anger/emotional issues in and out of rehab or involuntary confinment who also turned the rest of hte familyu against ME so I lived like that; walking dogs, taking care of dad, fighting in a place i had no respite or door, eating alone.

I started at this point developing a web technology on my own. Financed with dog walks and built in starbucks between walks while doing the above. Which has grown somehow to the most sophisticated tehcnoloyg of it's type build just like that, no one knows, and if I can't get it to the next level no one ever WILL know. People see me sit all alone at local bar and have no idea what I've created or the will or intelligence or courage or anything. The only person who ever did was... .her. Back to that in a moment.

Father went to elder care facility, they loved him there. The orderly says your father is the only one who picks up his tray every day and bring it to us. Father was amazing man; quiet, sweet, nurturing, funny,  peaceful except if his family threatened. One day at home he gripped my hand hard when I left, didn;t know what it meant, next day we got call he died. I went into our bathroom and cried then picked up my laptop and went out into the blizzard to I could go walk dogs and work on the site. No one to console me, no woman's lap or arms. My mother is scared of death so would not let us have a funeral or service, we had some brunch a month later, hardly a way to acknowledge a life or death. His ashes still sit on her buruea in the box they came from.

Meanwhile kept working on this day and night by which I mean 80-100 hours a week, 7 days a week, no friends to speak of, no dates, no woman, no love, no sex, no support and a toxic family situation and still no door. I go to bathrooms when I'm out to have a door to close, then I fight to get this technology built with it slding down the hill over and over and over and over and I find a way to push it back up. I finally laucnhed it and one knows what it is or what it took. She seemed to. Only person I know who said "I beleive in you".

Mother licked herself in her room and started to get depressed and then scary isolated. Lived in a house with bereft mother and angry muttering sister, no door. Finally realized my mother needed help or she would die and somehow convinced her to go to Cali to visit her favorite daughter. Getting her there was herculean effort, had to enlist aid of the CEO of the airline who was great. Got her there against her objections. My sis and bro in law were horrible to her because they had million dollar problems that were more important and were very short with her. I brought her there to save her with their tender love. One night they went out my mother asked me to stay. We had some wine and she talked about the mall they went to that day, discussed mezzanine and kept saying 'it wasn't high enough'. I kept asking what she meant (I had NO idea) she said 'to jump to jump to jump!'. I held her and then my sister th enext day told me I shold leave since I was being COOL to her and how hard her life was (husband wasnot appreciativ all the time, cnat find a home under $2mil) and was about to lay into her and had an epiphany 'You can talk to me about your life anytime you want and I'll listen. Right now your mother is DYING and she is here because you are the only one who can give her the love she needs right now. Can you do that and we can talk about you later on I promise?" She cried and late ron thanked me for being so strong, and I almost wept when she said "You reminded me of Dad".

I had to try to STIL get the business going htere, agian on no monmey with money running out as it kept doing, but had to walk my mother around Santa Monica every day to nurse her back to live, did that 2-3 hours a day and cooked for 6 people to boot. Made my mom stay through Thanksgiving against her wil, she thanked me for that. Had to watch my sisters fight while i handled all this over who would buy her ticket, finally I did even though I'd bought the one here and couldn't affotrd it but it beat dealing with the 'she said this' and 'b*** that' while I tried to rescue my life.

Got my mother back to Ny, just as hard, she was much better, yet my entire business as still in jeaporady as endless endless delays delaing with unscurpulous offshore coders which is allI could afford so in terror over my future and especially knowing what it COULD be if I could just get this thing done and then GET OUT of the toxic plac and get a life back again with a door away from all this toxic infighiting (wont even bore you with hideous older sister who after doing nothing during all of this amazed me by shwoing up with a shopping from Costco for us when we got back and then gave us a $500 bill for it).

THIS is when I stared with the girl. I mean we'd been in touch the prior year, she knew a lot of this, and knew why I couldnt be in a relatinship ad said she respected it but did not REALLY. She'd even been pushing to come meet my mom and take care of her when I was away before we'd even dated. But I mean when I got back from Cali this time is when she said if you arent seeing anyone I am not let's start ok and she did my Birthday which is where this all started.

I was not ready to just open up emotionally after all of the above nto ready to give myself 'corurting' wise when I'm fighitng to build a $20 million dollar technology with $5000 at a time and can hardly feed myself, I was not ready to just trust a woman who said all these things without knowing if I could trust her and should trust her. This technology has NO business existing let alone the way I built it, Itell people I did it on fury and terror. Yet still she believed in me, said she didn't care I lived at home, thoght I and it was amazing and supported me. I annot tell you how much I looke forward to having a woman who believed in me,  I could actually run ideas by, who could tell me it would be allright when it fell apart, to share in the victory and the rewards while I shared in hers. It is really all I ever wanted with a woman.

And when I startd putting my hands down and started trustring that she meant ME and she meant US and wasn't just a crazy 'i need to be in a relationship' woman but really got me and really supported me I started putting my defenses down and giving to her. And when she said she needed to HEAR I wanted her and her alone I told her and when she said she needed me to ask her OFFICIALLY I went all out and took her out and did and when she asked me to hold her in her arms and discuss our entire future together i did just that and bought into finally having that; the woman that supports me while I finish this and shares in it, the sundays in bed, the partnre and the love and the affection and giving it all that she asked for and finally having it again after all this. And she pulled it away the next day as i she'd never asked.

So there is a LOT more to this then poor-girl-unrequited-love-insensitive-guy.

Phew. I'm going to go box.

[1stTimer]

er... .I just know what it feels like to no longer be in contact with someone and how you gradually adjust to that.

Yet somehow I didn't. Which is pretty amazing where we both (supposedly) came from. So again I wonder if my letters have missed the mark by a wide margin as they appear to be so (tepidly) received, almost as she would if SHE were the one who didn't love and I did ('thanks for the nice thoughts' not as if she'd gotten validation twice of everything she (supposedly) wanted to hear from me.  And that leads me back to 'truthfully'. Yeah I know I 'm supposed ot be open to rejection since I supposedly broke her unrequited love heart for months but part of me is thinking this did NOT happen and 'truthful' is that I 'imagined' it or took her comments way to much to heart and we'll get to 'straighten' that out with a talk (YOU thought I felt ABC I did not). I don't know anymore. I just mean if she did feel like that and *I* am so and still so connected/broken about it then hard to imagine how she'd adjust. Then again as mentioned; living in NYC as single woman, pretty or not, you always have access to men.

[1stTimer]

ith someone and how you gradually adjust to that. Her being nice at all is a good indicator. Maybe there was pressure on her from friends or family, some advice, to keep away, who knows.

I took that into account and took into account they may not really know the man I am OR the work I've done to understand my part in how I hurt their daughter/sister. So while I did not write that for them I would imagine they've read it by now and have a better idea of who I am. And as tepid as the reply is I bet it means far far far more to her than that reply indicates.

Since she knows a good deal of the story I just told above, my hope is she'd be able to see the care/retecine I showed (which she likely took as a judgment of herself) and see that with fresh eyes with that I said so she can reconcile the two.

[1stTimer]

Forgot this part in the whole 'fun story' Pearl; one of the things that the friends in San Fran did to turn her against me was use 1/2 truths from my past they knew nothing about and sewing together a lie. However part of that lie included a partner from my past I'd had a break with who screwed me who did something unbeknownst to me (took my old company url and diverted it to his so it looks like I lied about THAT).

In any event when I returned to NYC, guess who my younger sister was marrying? The guy who screwed me AND whose unscrupulous action had forever turned the one woman on the planet who lovvvvvved ME into thinking I was scum forever. No one really cared I'd have to now spend the rest of my life near him. I refused to go to the wedding. However aforementioned older sister decided not to go and keep her son and daughter and husband away too (because she could not control the wedding). I decided I HAD to go now since 1/2 my baby sister's family was not all of a sudden. It was a 6 hour trip to a beach part night before the wedding, lobster bake, and with both entire familes watching in the tent I went up and hugged him and welcomed him to the family. That was the hardest thing I'd EVER done up to that point in my life. Not a person acknowledged it. And though we've mended fences to a degree (though he kept the URL 6 years into the marriage) I still look at him and know that his actionsh helped destroy the love of the woman I loved.

Just since you're asking me to put it all down here

[ILuvABorderline]

For what it’s worth, all other things aside, I personally thought the letter was beautiful. Also, there is the possibility that this woman is both the individuals you described. Underneath the BPD insanity my husband remains a scared, timid and confused little boy. In my experience, a person with BPD can genuinely have a wondrous side of themselves that compels you to want to protect them, love them more than anyone else ever has and keep them “safe” with you forever. This side coexists with the Borderline Beast.

[1stTimer]

For what it’s worth, all other things aside, I personally thought the letter was beautiful. Also, there is the possibility that this woman is both the individuals you described. Underneath the BPD insanity my husband remains a scared, timid and confused little boy. In my experience, a person with BPD can genuinely have a wondrous side of themselves that compels you to want to protect them, love them more than anyone else ever has and keep them “safe” with you forever. This side coexists with the Borderline Beast.

Hi ILuv. Thanks for the kind words. I seem to encounter that theme a lot, that many BPD people are in fact very loving and lovable. Jury is out for me on BPD with her. I have never seen any of the devaluing, fury, emotional cutting, insulting, or even unstable behavior from her. Fear of intimacy to be sure. Abandoned by father (who had to have my name of course) yeah.

I really think she was much more moved by the letter than she indicates and on re-reading her reply it does not seem nearly so harsh. I guess I had a more "Hollywood" version of what would happen if she did reply. I don't think anyone reading that least of all the person reading it could not get it was totally from the heart from a person that cared and cares deeply. Funny thing is if she is just discovering the depths of how much I did, it took me a few weeks of being furious at her to realize that underneath it I cared for her so much more than I ever allowed myself to know. If you read my 'lament' a few posts back it might be clear why.

In any event glad to know you can make something work with a pwBPD and nice to see that you can see that inside him and love him and stay with him.

[Harri]

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